Celestial

[Zoltreez.6435]

I Want Trailblazer Amulet T.T

[witcher.3197]

On one hand, it'd probably overtake many Mender/Sage/Carrion builds and make the former 2 completely disappear.

On the other hand, it'd be a big FU to thieves, which I'd love to see.

I guess offseason is perfect for testing stuff like this.

[Evil.1580]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:I could see a lower stat celestial being okay. Would still need to nerf some defenses though.

We've actually talked about bringing back a nerfed celestial amulet recently. We're thinking 500 per stat, down from 560. We'd reintroduce between seasons and see how it performs.

With the number of changes and current condi reign, I really think that you should discuss a short test with original stats celestial and lower it after this if necessary. I am pretty sure you can't squeeze this gameplay atm which was introduced from ele and engi back then.

[Pvt Frosty.6973]

i think the reduced stats are fine, in fact i think making it 460 each would probably be even better :)

[Chapell.1346]

@witcher.3197 said:On the other hand, it'd be a big middle finger to thieves, which I'd love to see as well.On a first thought, removing Celestial Amulet is the most satisfying Innovative changes that who ever tried to rigged them up was totally in a right mind . On the other middle ground, people need to be much more Revolting if they wanted to bring them or re-introduce them back (Amulets).

[R E F L H E X.8413]

At one point knights was removed from pvp and that is not an op amulet.

[choovanski.5462]

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

i think firebrand is in need of new amulet too. it needs high healing power to make use of f2 for an effective bunker/support, but all of the support amulets are power based which means your f1 tome is going to be boarder line useless. i’ve posted a few idea of what i think would be good amulets for the class.

1050 healing power1050 vitality560 condi560 power

1050 healing power1050 vitality560 condi560 concentration

1200 healing power900 vitality900 condi

[Abelisk.4527]

Celestial is simply not OP at all. The stat change would justify that even more.

[Vitali.5039]

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

[Ario.8964]

Don't know why everyone is complaining about season 1 when celestial comes back in. You can't blame the amulet, in season 1 the issue was how much invuln and natural defense every spec had, that's why even after the removal of those amulets the specs still had to be nerfed more. Rarely is the problem with a build or set of builds related to an amulet (unless it was some nonsense like nomad's or minstrels creating some OP bunker). I'm happy Ben and the other anet devs are talking about this and considering it as a possibility. While cele is on the table I'd also like to propose they bring back mercenary's and soldier's amulets as well. Neither of those were broken and wouldn't be in the games current implementation as the builds that made them seem op were nerfed. High amounts of amulet choices is a good thing as it promotes diversity and creativity in builds. Is it harder to balance? Yes, but sometimes natural balance occurs due to more counters existing to builds that may be very powerful which helps to lessen the pain of a build being too strong for awhile. All in all adding more amulets is good for the game and should be a goal of the pvp team (and please when you add amulets don't do it for gold. It's obnoxious and completely unnecessary)

[witcher.3197]

@Ario.8964 said:Don't know why everyone is complaining about season 1 when celestial comes back in. You can't blame the amulet

Why do people in this thread act as if celestial only existed in season 1? Didn't Abjured win a major tournament way before that with a 4 celestial comp (2 eles, 1 engi, 1 nec)? For nearly 2 years it was very oppressive on several classes - ele, warrior, necro, engi, then in HoT briefly ranger and mesmer.

Now it could work with all those plus new ones like s/d condi thief.

[Razor.6392]

@choovanski.5462 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

i think firebrand is in need of new amulet too. it needs high healing power to make use of f2 for an effective bunker/support, but all of the support amulets are power based which means your f1 tome is going to be boarder line useless. i’ve posted a few idea of what i think would be good amulets for the class.

1050 healing power1050 vitality560 condi560 power

1050 healing power1050 vitality560 condi560 concentration

1200 healing power900 vitality900 condi

It's like people don't care about suggesting something that would push a spec beyond broken levels lol.

[Crinn.7864]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

[Vitali.5039]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

With Last Rites added Healing Power some damage loss is a good trade to be immortal

[Crinn.7864]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

With Last Rites added Healing Power some damage loss is a good trade to be immortal

Barrier doesn't scale that well with healing power. Cele scourge would not be anywhere near immortal, and the damage loss would just make killing them easier because attackers wouldn't have to worry about getting condi nuked.

[Ario.8964]

Except you neglect the fact that 1) Damage as a whole was significantly less back then so the bruiser style that cele created was the optimal pick in that type of meta. Those same builds put in todays metagame would get laughed at because they don't do enough damage to go through the ridiculous sustain of any build now and they don't have enough sustain to last against the insane bursts put out by builds nowadays. 2) The only reason cele became popular as a build choice outside of elementalist was the mass change to runes that made might stacking so easy. Everyone gained essentially free boosts to damage which allowed for cele to be a good build choice as you weren't hampered by low damage anymore. Nowadays it would either be outclassed by other current meta builds (especially spellbreaker due to it's boonstripping abilities as a counter to cele's natural reliance on boons to make it perform well in certain areas) or it would just be another alternative amulet for builds (maybe as a possible alternate to paladin/mender's builds on classes)

Cele itself isn't the problem as stats alone don't mean anything. Think of it this way: I take 2 warrior with traits and weapons the same (setup for the core war meta might makes right build) but i gear one in demo with strength runes and the other in celestial with divinity runes and have them fight. Who wins? The demo one ofc because even though the celestial had more total stats the demo one has more stats and functions specialized towards the build's purpose. If celestial is added back in with mercenary and soldier a ton of builds will not take celestial because other amulets provide more stats focused on the type of build people intend to run rather than just raw stats.

And because I feel the need to say it again because the point doesn't seem to be getting through to some people: The reason certain builds were op with celestial was due to other broken mechanics like too many ways to increase their damage (might stacking, traits that buff a specific condi's damage, etc.) that ended up being strong enough to remove the need to specialize in those stats. So bring back cele and nerf the stuff that's broken and you'll end up with a better game overall rather than one with the same stale builds that still abuse broken mechanics.

[HeadCrowned.6834]

Going to be interesting when they add cele amulet again. I hope they add some other amulets too. Build diversity is gud.

[Nilkemia.8507]

Yes, please bring Celestial back, along with Soldier, Cleric, Mercenary and so on. Also, make sure to include new amulets for the new stat combos and make sure they're correct. (PvP Wanderer's amulet doesn't actually match Wanderer stats in PvE, more like some kinda modified Trailblazer stat amulet...Deadshot amulet and Mercenary amulet also had no equivalents in other modes, as far as I know.

[Exciton.8942]

Nerfed Celestial will probably be fine.

But something with major condition and healing power will be quite OP(essentially a condition damage version of mender). I fear they bring something like that into sPvP.

[Vitali.5039]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

With Last Rites added Healing Power some damage loss is a good trade to be immortal

Barrier doesn't scale that well with healing power. Cele scourge would not be anywhere near immortal, and the damage loss would just make killing them easier because attackers wouldn't have to worry about getting condi nuked.

Transfusion says hello, immortal me, immortal you, dps isn't all we can do. Scourge stacking even worse.Toughness, Vitality (+180), Healing Power (+150/300/450) and good precision/power/condition damage will become the nightmare of PvP.I'm pretty sere that Guardian's Invigorated Bulwark was changed to not provide raw healing power before Firebrand's launch for this very reason, to not have all in one build without invest in Major & Minor amulets.

[Zoltreez.6435]

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

With Last Rites added Healing Power some damage loss is a good trade to be immortal

Barrier doesn't scale that well with healing power. Cele scourge would not be anywhere near immortal, and the damage loss would just make killing them easier because attackers wouldn't have to worry about getting condi nuked.

Transfusion says hello, immortal me, immortal you, dps isn't all we can do. Scourge stacking even worse.Toughness, Vitality (+180), Healing Power (+150/300/450) and good precision/power/condition damage will become the nightmare of PvP.I'm pretty sere that Guardian's Invigorated Bulwark was changed to not provide raw healing power before Firebrand's launch for this very reason, to not have all in one build without invest in Major & Minor amulets.

im runing right now ascended cele on my scourge....

its an allrounder but you cant kill anything.... no expertise + all the missing power+condi dmg... your dmg is bassicaly nerfed by a good 50% or even more....you cant kill anyone with cele scourge that has even half a brain.... they will just outlast you then burst through that small defense cele gives like its not even there...

right now Trailbrazer+viper combo the best you can do for Great dmg and self sustain...

btw Necro Healing power scalling is super bad i dont even feel that healing power the gear gives it barely changes anything its just a waste of stat....

[Abelisk.4527]

I highly doubt anything as awful as Ventari and condi Thief will be brought back with Cele amulet, but we'll see.

[Vitali.5039]

@Zoltreez.6435 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Vitali.5039 said:

@shippage.1983 said:Current meta builds should be able to beat out celestial ele in most match-ups. I think it should be added back, as d/d ele was my favorite pvp build. I want it to be viable again.

Current meta builds could be able to beat celestial scourges?

Celestial Scourge wouldn't even work well though.

The proposed Cele with 500 of each would mean the scourge is down 400 vitality from carrion which negatively affects scourge's LF management, and even more critical it costs the scourge 700 condition damage which takes a massive chunk out of the scourge's damage. Yeah sure the 500 toughness and 500 healing power would be nice, but the tradeoff isn't really worth it.

Cele reaper though.....

With Last Rites added Healing Power some damage loss is a good trade to be immortal

Barrier doesn't scale that well with healing power. Cele scourge would not be anywhere near immortal, and the damage loss would just make killing them easier because attackers wouldn't have to worry about getting condi nuked.

Transfusion says hello, immortal me, immortal you, dps isn't all we can do. Scourge stacking even worse.Toughness, Vitality (+180), Healing Power (+150/300/450) and good precision/power/condition damage will become the nightmare of PvP.I'm pretty sere that Guardian's Invigorated Bulwark was changed to not provide raw healing power before Firebrand's launch for this very reason, to not have all in one build without invest in Major & Minor amulets.

im runing right now ascended cele on my scourge....

its an allrounder but you cant kill anything.... no expertise + all the missing power+condi dmg... your dmg is bassicaly nerfed by a good 50% or even more....you cant kill anyone with cele scourge that has even half a brain.... they will just outlast you then burst through that small defense cele gives like its not even there...

right now Trailbrazer+viper combo the best you can do for Great dmg and self sustain...

Now, this could be meaningful if WvW players could only run with PvP amulet stats and should cap point..

btw Necro Healing power scalling is super bad i dont even feel that healing power the gear gives it barely changes anything its just a waste of stat....Not true

[ima kong fu ninja.3052]

Please don't bring back cele.... Have we not learned anything? :astonished:

[Abelisk.4527]

@ima kong fu ninja.3052 said:Please don't bring back cele.... Have we not learned anything? :astonished:

The meta has shifted so much that any of the older builds won't matter anymore.