IS Vital Persistence fair now?

[DragonFury.6243]

why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

[Kumouta.4985]

Considering scourge F1's cooldown isn't decreased by the trait and the F5, which counts as entering and being in shroud for scourge, has a 16 sec cooldown traited which is higher than the 10 for RS & DS- yes, it's fair.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

It's fair. The other two traits at that tier don't compete, but Vital Persistence is fair.

[Dadnir.5038]

Indeed, if we look purely at specializations, we can say that VP is "fair". However, if we look at the traits with which he compete, we can hardly say that he is "fair". Simply put, a 20% CD reduction on the special mechanic of a profession cannot be on a major trait, this is automatically "unfair" for the other traits that compete with it. And it's especially true for a profession like the necromancer which have so many traits tied to it's special mechanic.

[DragonFury.6243]

@Kumouta.4985 said:Considering scourge F1's cooldown isn't decreased by the trait and the F5, which counts as entering and being in shroud for scourge, has a 16 sec cooldown traited which is higher than the 10 for RS & DS- yes, it's fair.

BTW the scourge F1 is an auto attack and the death and reaper auto attack also isnt decreased by Vital Persistence

[Sephylon.4938]

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Kumouta.4985 said:Considering scourge F1's cooldown isn't decreased by the trait and the F5, which counts as entering and being in shroud for scourge, has a 16 sec cooldown traited which is higher than the 10 for RS & DS- yes, it's fair.

BTW the scourge F1 is an auto attack and the death and reaper auto attack also isnt decreased by Vital Persistence

Only if you enter shroud, outside of it, f1 is enter shroud.

[X T D.6458]

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud skills not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

[Lahmia.2193]

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

[DragonFury.6243]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

[Lahmia.2193]

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

Still no SoS is pretty crap right now in general it needs better boosting numbers to be a really viable thing for the way it sits right now on any necro spec.

Ideally this trait is just waiting to be reworked yet again as it has no competitive weight with Close to Death or Spiteful Spirit.

[Lahmia.2193]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

Still no SoS is pretty crap right now in general it needs better boosting numbers to be a really viable thing for the way it sits right now on any necro spec.

Ideally this trait is just waiting to be reworked yet again as it has no competitive weight with Close to Death or Spiteful Spirit.

Talking about Speed of Shadows not Signets of Suffering.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

Still no SoS is pretty crap right now in general it needs better boosting numbers to be a really viable thing for the way it sits right now on any necro spec.

Ideally this trait is just waiting to be reworked yet again as it has no competitive weight with Close to Death or Spiteful Spirit.

Talking about Speed of Shadows not Signets of Suffering.

Ahhh a good misunderstanding

In any case speed of shadows wont change back to what it was and i dont think scourge was the cause of its change either.

Speed of shadows was changed because immoblize and chill screwed reaper and core to such an extent if you got hit with one and couldnt clear or xfer it it was instant death. In fact i feel like if they wanted too they could have simply made desert shroud f1 and summon sand shade f5 if they wanted too. This would have allowed VP not to effect the F1 as it does not with any other spec. But allowed Speed of shaodws to reduce shroud entry time. So that said I dont think scourge was the reason for the trait change. They had plenty of ways to work around that.

I personally like what the current speed of shadows does.

A base buff to reaper shroud entry would be nice as it has a higher degeneration rate and there should not be long time gaps between entry. (being kited and waiting for you to drop shroud knowing you are locked out your professions skills and unique form for a longer period of time than you are likely to be in it is kind of fubar. )

The current speed of shadows generally has more use for helping have some chase or disengage potential though at least more than necros had before.

[Lahmia.2193]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

Still no SoS is pretty crap right now in general it needs better boosting numbers to be a really viable thing for the way it sits right now on any necro spec.

Ideally this trait is just waiting to be reworked yet again as it has no competitive weight with Close to Death or Spiteful Spirit.

Talking about Speed of Shadows not Signets of Suffering.

Ahhh a good misunderstanding

In any case speed of shadows wont change back to what it was and i dont think scourge was the cause of its change either.

Speed of shadows was changed because immoblize and chill screwed reaper and core to such an extent if you got hit with one and couldnt clear or xfer it it was instant death. In fact i feel like if they wanted too they could have simply made desert shroud f1 and summon sand shade f5 if they wanted too. This would have allowed VP not to effect the F1 as it does not with any other spec. But allowed Speed of shaodws to reduce shroud entry time. So that said I dont think scourge was the reason for the trait change. They had plenty of ways to work around that.

I personally like what the current speed of shadows does.

A base buff to reaper shroud entry would be nice as it has a higher degeneration rate and there should not be long time gaps between entry. (being kited and waiting for you to drop shroud knowing you are locked out your professions skills and unique form for a longer period of time than you are likely to be in it is kind of fubar. )

The current speed of shadows generally has more use for helping have some chase or disengage potential though at least more than necros had before.

Perhaps. But consider that they changed both Vital Persistence and Speed of Shadows in the same balance update, the last one before PoF, both traits having aspects that wouldn't work with scourge (namely the life force degen reduction and shroud cooldown reduction). I'd say it was almost definitely because of Scourge.

[CaptainCaveman.7248]

It is not fair when you consider how much stronger scourge is then the other necro builds. So until they boost those other builds it is totally 100% unfair.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"CaptainCaveman.7248" said:It is not fair when you consider how much stronger scourge is then the other necro builds. So until they boost those other builds it is totally 100% unfair.

The problem with that is because scourge is an elite spec and not part of the core profession boosting anything under the core profession directly buffs scourge meaning other builds make no progress to being any closer to scourge. Simply put scourge int itself is too strong (for a single traitline / profession mechanic) standpoint and it shows.

Its why when anyone talks about buffing anything to do with core aspects or elements of the necromancer the first thing people do is go "BUT SCOURGE OP WE DONT NEED IT STRONGER!!?!?!1111?!?!!1"

[ZDragon.3046]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

No, what they should have done was make it interact differently with Scourge. So reaper and core could get the reduction on shroud cooldown, whilst Scourge gets something else (maybe the current version).

Still no SoS is pretty crap right now in general it needs better boosting numbers to be a really viable thing for the way it sits right now on any necro spec.

Ideally this trait is just waiting to be reworked yet again as it has no competitive weight with Close to Death or Spiteful Spirit.

Talking about Speed of Shadows not Signets of Suffering.

Ahhh a good misunderstanding

In any case speed of shadows wont change back to what it was and i dont think scourge was the cause of its change either.

Speed of shadows was changed because immoblize and chill screwed reaper and core to such an extent if you got hit with one and couldnt clear or xfer it it was instant death. In fact i feel like if they wanted too they could have simply made desert shroud f1 and summon sand shade f5 if they wanted too. This would have allowed VP not to effect the F1 as it does not with any other spec. But allowed Speed of shaodws to reduce shroud entry time. So that said I dont think scourge was the reason for the trait change. They had plenty of ways to work around that.

I personally like what the current speed of shadows does.

A base buff to reaper shroud entry would be nice as it has a higher degeneration rate and there should not be long time gaps between entry. (being kited and waiting for you to drop shroud knowing you are locked out your professions skills and unique form for a longer period of time than you are likely to be in it is kind of fubar. )

The current speed of shadows generally has more use for helping have some chase or disengage potential though at least more than necros had before.

Perhaps. But consider that they changed both Vital Persistence and Speed of Shadows in the same balance update, the last one before PoF, both traits having aspects that wouldn't work with scourge (namely the life force degen reduction and shroud cooldown reduction). I'd say it was almost definitely because of Scourge.

I personally think VP had nothing to do with it they could have as i said gotten around that with an boundless number of ways (just reducing the cost of lf skills for example). They do make some traits change mechanics based on the e spec on other professions too. That said lets go with the idea that it was because of scourge, if that really was the case its only showing how bad of a design scourge was to start with. Things should not be changing so drastically because of a single e spec. Even more so when that single e spec over performs in sheer power from a single trait line / profession mechanic variation standpoint.(no im not saying that scourge is the strongest thing in the game) But in terms of weighted power when it comes to a single traitline scourge (that single traitline makes necro relevant and in alot of peoples eyes playable.)

Taking off the scourge traitline from necro to some people right now is the equivalent of removing trickery from thief. The line just carries alot of value and changes the profession a bit too much and anet should have known to tone it back with just how much it changed necro form its core aspect.

Hopefully the next espec will be a little closer in variation to core but enough change to make it stand out about as much as reaper does. Its at that time i expect scourge to take a serious nerf into the dirt if it does not get a rework like mesmer or deadeye before hand.

[Anchoku.8142]

It seems like the three shroud mechanics are separated and independent enough for Arenanet to have VP modify them differently.

Reaper Shroud was abused, especially in PvE where there can be a large number of mob deaths to provide LF. Still, the trait could be split between game modes, too. Maybe giving more LF in PvP or faster shroud CD against players or Defiant bosses would compensate for the increased degeneration rate.

[X T D.6458]

Dont forget they did later add a base -25% lifeforce degen while in shroud.

[Zero.3871]

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:why Vital Persistence decrease the CD for scourge shroud entrance but not death or reaper shroudand i dont think that SOS will returnso is that fair ?

VP reduces the cd on shroud

skills

not shroud itself. Desert shroud is the same as Reaper/Death shroud #5 skills, and Manifest sand shade is the same as the #1 skills. Speed of shadows used to reduce the cd of Shroud before its last stupid change.

While I don't believe it is justified, the reason for SoS change was because of how it interacted with Scourge.

but is removing SOS is fair? and without a replacement or any thing!!!!

its not fair, i like the way SoS grant you swiftness now. but i am also missing the shroud cd reduction, cause 10 seconds cd on shroud + extra if you get chilled is killing reaper. but anet dont care for necros, they still nerfing core and reaper (remember signet of plague cd increase). anet still thinks core necro is overpowered because of "OP shroud" xD.

[Dadnir.5038]

anet still thinks core necro is overpowered because of "OP shroud" xD.

Ah... The fabled op shroud. Designed to do everything at the same time yet failing to perform well at anything. And still, players are totally reluctant to see it changed.

[Brujeria.7536]

I feel they should add this part of the former skill somewhere into the deathmagic line - alongside a trait that revolves around barrier when gaining protection / corrupting a boon or something.