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@jbrother.1340 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

You know I tend to agree however it is obvious that either the OP does not have the desire or the patience to simply practice. Regardless of what was said either they have the ability to practice and get better or they practice and don't get better in which case even attempting another class would be futile.

I tend to believe that this OP will get better with practice if they simply play more with purpose and some back reading about the class and style before, then go practice starting in simple ways that do not crush their spirits.

Go check out all the skills on a training dummy but seriously if you want something done right do it yourself don't expect others to do it and limit your need to have someone else teach you by teaching yourself to learn in new ways.

Start a lvl 1 character and run the story from start to finish and see how you are doing at the end maybe?

The issue with starting a lvl 1 character and running all the way through the story is that the mobs in story instances, including arah are very very weak compared to regular mobs, so that i dont think is a good way to learn.

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My recommendation would be to explore every single skill option for each class.

Part of the skill element to any game is to learn the class and/or mechanics in order to excel. For me, I found this was best accomplished through experimentation.

To lend my thoughts to the Guardian class, I would high recommend looking at the following:

  • Shouts: These are great for granting defensive boons. "Hold the Line" grants Protection, which is gives you 33% damage reduction for a time.
  • Shield and Focus skills: These two off-hand weapons have some powerful defensive skills that are worth looking over.
  • Traits: These will be some of your main sources of survivability. Honor, Valor and Virtues are fantastic for defensive traits.
  • Defensive stats: Invest into some toughness and vitality for increased armour and hit point to survive those tough encounters.

If you need more advice for the Guardian class, feel free to drop me a private message or whisper in-game.

Good luck!

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@jbrother.1340 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

You know I tend to agree however it is obvious that either the OP does not have the desire or the patience to simply practice. Regardless of what was said either they have the ability to practice and get better or they practice and don't get better in which case even attempting another class would be futile.

I understand the frustration that you, and @starlinvf.1358, feel about that. In other contexts, people who do similar things have me ready to drive my head through a table, and I have an unfortunate history of similarly getting frustrated, and regrettably mean, if they insist on continuing to declare that they must be right, regardless of all evidence.

I'm just as wrong when I let that frustration turn into unhelpful comments in forums, and I'm working hard to improve on that front. The same is true here: the best way to deal with that foolishness for everyone is that you, I, and everyone else who is that frustrated just steps away. You can't help people who don't want help, and what you describe certainly fits into "don't [really] want help" from my perspective.

Like, I'm not saying y'all are wrong. I'm definitely not saying your frustration is wrong, or misplaced, or imaginary. I'm also not saying we should humor someone behaving as you describe.

I'm just saying we shouldn't let that frustration get the better of us, and instead, we should try and live up to our best selves: swear about it in the real world, and walk away without putting it into the forums.

(As a bonus, enough times I got suckered into long arguments that just kept getting more frustrating, because the other party just ignored every correct, or worse, absorbed them, and regurgitated them as if it was their original idea ... just completely wrong on every front. Life got better when I stopped letting them waste my time. You may find the same.)

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To quote the Monster Hunter community: "Don't get hit. Hit them until they die"

Infinite variations of that phrase are how you git gud. Really that's all there is to it. Positioning is important, dodging or avoiding enemy attacks is important, learning how to do good DPS is important, and knowing how to prioritize targets is important. Most combat in this game is a puzzle, with multiple solutions. Once you figure out the trick for each enemy, then combat becomes a piece of cake.

I run around the overworld in full glass cannon gear on every class except for warrior and ranger, and I have no problems. Probably the biggest secret to my success is good DPS. There are a lot of enemies that are rendered harmless just by killing them faster than they can get their attack off. After that, circle strafing renders most attacks useless.

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If you write 1 + 2 = 4 on the chalkboard, you would be wrong.If you write 1 + 2 = 4 on the chalkboard 100 times, you would still be wrongIf you write 1 + 2 = 4 on the chalkboard 100 times a day for 4 years, you would still be wrong

So when you ask how you could still be struggling after playing this game for so many years, the obvious conclusion is that you were doing it wrong this whole time, and the only reason why you have been successful on your Necro is that they have near broken sustain baked right in. Fact is, if you were dying constantly on every class you played all the time, you would either have quit GW2 or sat down and really tried to figure out what was going wrong.

I don't mean the above to sound harsh. You just didn't learn the proper mechanics of GW2 all these years because, on your Necro, you didn't have to!But the good news is you are aware that something is wrong and you want to change, and that's really the hard part.

As has been said in this thread a few times, GW2 isn't a game where you are supposed to take damage, but instead, are meant to avoid it. A big bad Greatsword wielding Heavy Armor wearing profession named Guardian will fold like a cheap suit if he tries to face tank (Guards actually have about the same amount of health as a Thief). This isn't your traditional MMO where the cloth wearing classes are squishy and the plate wearers can take hit after hit. In GW2 you are meant to use your active defenses to mitigate and avoid incoming damage in between positioning and dodging. Every profession (Necro being a small exception) is in the same boat, and as you get to the later levels in Tyria and into HoT, if you don't know how to avoid damage, it's a rough go.

Start by reviewing your build, and making sure you have good synergy with skills, specs and weapons, and that you have the correct utility skills equipped. Meta battle now lists open world builds which is a great start.

Example:You mentioned on your Guard you don't have enough blocks or blinds. I'm playing Core, but nothing out of the ordinary, and I have 2 ways to blind, and 3 separate ways of applying Aegis to myself on demand, and I've never been in a situation where I needed to use all of them to kill 2 mobs in the Open world, unless both were Elite (not Veteran mind you...).

After you're sure your build is good to go, do the same with your gear. Yes, I agree with the idea that having defensive stats on your gear isn't a bad thing if you're struggling, but there is a trade-off, as the longer it takes for mobs to die, the more chances they have of killing you. So going overboard on defensive stats, or wearing the wrong gear entirely, will still create a problem for you as it diminishes your ability to kill the mobs before they kill you.

And lastly, take the approach of "if I can't kill these mobs in 1-2 seconds, then I need to be prepared to avoid the damage that is coming". Whether that means dodging out of circles or moving around behind them when they indicate a cone of attack, dodging projectiles, or using active defenses to nullify enemy attacks. This takes practice and knowledge of how the mob attacks, and while I'm pretty good on my Guard, I still sometimes struggle to read a mob, and end up eating a plate full of damage. But I'm getting better.

Keep at it!

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I suggest WvW roaming builds for open world use. These builds typically pack more condi cleanse, stun breaks, resets, and general survival tools than your typical PvE meta builds. There are also quite a few guides on youtube on the usage of various roaming builds. Not everything will carry over from one game mode to the other ofc, but if you can hold your own roaming, you should be just fine out in the world.

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:If you're gonna be a Hero, at least learn how to do something heroic without being told how to do it.

This is none of: helpful, appropriate, funny. Please, try and be more productive in your forum interactions. Nobody benefits from rudeness.

Yet if you dwell on the question for more then 2 seconds, not only is the OP wrong there not being resources, but action games are more intuitive, with a fair share of deductive reasoning, because there are only so many things you can teach a person when the game play is driven by analytical response. The problem the OP has is one of practice, and how explain the myriad of things to process in a step by step "rotation"?.

Secondly, you can tell weaved throughout the post, his desire is to make the game adapt to how he does things, rather then the other way around. "I want to block and interrupt everything like a Tank" when the game itself isn't designed around that. He understands the concept of dodging, but doesn't like, and avoids trying to use it..... but its so fundamental to the combat, you can't simply not use it and expect do well.

No amount of explaining the game mechanics he needs will help, because he's already aware of them, and actively wants to dismiss them. So only has 2 choices..... learn to use the abilities hes already aware of, or overcompensate with defensive stats, and suffer the consequences of doing so. I can't explain that concept any harder then anyone else here has thus far.

I actually use my dodge when ever it's available I just suck at going where I want to go, I have it hot keyed to Mouse 4 button, I'm not that good at moving out of things unless I have a long tell like they have in ESO, unfortunately I find by the time I notice something to move out of I'm already half way dead then after moving something else finishes me off unless I'm playing a Reaper. Thankfully I've found a GS Guardian has a fair amount of defense built right into it's abilities such as its blind, whirl finisher that I believe has reflect on it, it's retaliation symbol, I think standing in the middle of that Blade Trap also provides a Whirl finisher while blinding the enemies if you use F1, I don't bother with the other F keys because it seems it's better to get your Christmas Aegis, and trickle healing. Other Utility choices throw me off though, I know there are talents that make some utilities provide Retaliation which I like because it provides the same feel as a Diablo 3 Thorns build, I suppose Shelter would be good because it provides an extra block and it seems throwing retreat in there for a block would be a waste, I found using Hammer for my second Weapon was good for longer Boss fights with the 33% protection and CC for Break Bars.

I suppose the Dragon Maw Elite tank is better for drawing in some spread out mobs, but then supposedly GS5 does that as well, but I thought you were not supposed to pull them to leave burning on the mobs.

That's just it though it feels like I know enough to get my self in trouble as the saying goes.

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@"Donutdude.9582" said:My recommendation would be to explore every single skill option for each class.

Part of the skill element to any game is to learn the class and/or mechanics in order to excel. For me, I found this was best accomplished through experimentation.

To lend my thoughts to the Guardian class, I would high recommend looking at the following:

  • Shouts: These are great for granting defensive boons. "Hold the Line" grants Protection, which is gives you 33% damage reduction for a time.
  • Shield and Focus skills: These two off-hand weapons have some powerful defensive skills that are worth looking over.
  • Traits: These will be some of your main sources of survivability. Honor, Valor and Virtues are fantastic for defensive traits.
  • Defensive stats: Invest into some toughness and vitality for increased armour and hit point to survive those tough encounters.

If you need more advice for the Guardian class, feel free to drop me a private message or whisper in-game.

Good luck!

I think the armor on my Guardian is Knights atm with zerker Trinkets and weapons, I'll try the Shouts, I was trying to build utilities toward Retaliation before.

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Something that may or may not help as well:

If you want to learn a profession, don't start at 80. Make a new character, go through the leveling process, and do the stories, and yes, the side quests. Sounds boring, eh? That may be true, but it's the best way to learn a profession. Everything you do in leveling up to 80 is meant to teach you how to use your character. Many times you'll outlevel the zone you're in before you're through with everything.

Look, it's the easiest thing in the world to use that level boost ticket, but then when you're insta-80 and you want to ragequit because you can't generate those big numbers like (insert name) can, or you don't have the survivability that a website said you would have, it's just not worth it. I've done it both ways, and from my point of view, leveling from scratch is a much better way of learning a profession.

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@Optimator.3589 said:I suggest WvW roaming builds for open world use. These builds typically pack more condi cleanse, stun breaks, resets, and general survival tools than your typical PvE meta builds. There are also quite a few guides on youtube on the usage of various roaming builds. Not everything will carry over from one game mode to the other ofc, but if you can hold your own roaming, you should be just fine out in the world.

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Rule one of games, if you're being overwhelmed, draw fewer enemies at once, or change your build to be more suited against groups.But primarily, draw fewer enemies

I was under the impression that groups of mobs were tied together other than the obvious culprits like Pocket Raptors, so say I'm on a Guardian if I hit one with a scepter then only that enemy will come at me?

Pocket Raptors demand AoE, Rolling Devils demand CC, Mordrem Snipers demand moving to the side; each of these HoT mobs, and to a fair degree the mobs in all content thereafter, have their own unique style, and appropriate responses that make them relatively easy to deal with.

The two things that made a big difference to me:

First one was learning that. Once I figured out how the enemies work -- and many of them use skills identical to players -- I was much better able to counter them. Pocket Raptors used to make my cry, and typically die, but once I figured out the trick, bam, no longer a concern.

The second one was to learn to save abilities for when they were needed. If there was a risk that those pesky raptors were gonna get involved, make sure I retain some AoE damage, or at least an AoE cripple, to let me avoid their burst damage.

Beyond that, you might find it helpful to look at the WvW builds on metabattle. Those focus more on survivability than the other builds, and that can be a big help. You are right, though: those mobs are much harder than the core ones, and it definitely is a steep learning curve.

I'll look into these WVWVW builds, I focus too much on the PVE builds not realizing they only function in the vacuum of an instance.

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@"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

Most enemies do have basic tells of some sort. There are tracks, circles, and so on that appear on the ground, but there are also things like their animations. Watch the enemies as well as the ground.

Example: Ettins. Ettins have a knock-down attack that they are fond of. There's no ground-marker tell for it, though. Instead, you must watch for them "winding up" to deliver it, and when you see that, you dodge, run back, interrupt, or invoke stability, as you see fit(1). If you don't watch for it, you'll miss it, and you'll have to eat the knock-down, and that hurts.

So no, it's not haphazard in any way. It's a mix of profession-specific things and mob-specific things. This mob attacks like this, so you have to invoke that list of defensive techniques, depending on your profession, but the mob always attacks like that, and when it does, it animates like that or puts that marker on the ground. The Ettin always looks like that when it's winding up the knock-down.

(1) Or other things, depending on your profession. A Spellbreaker with enough Adrenaline might activate Full Counter, while a Daredevil with enough Initiative available might simply Vault behind the Ettin.

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To my critics both kind and harsh I should have been clear that I'm looking for Youtube guides to explain how these concepts work to make sure my own understanding is correct or flawed. For example I found great beginner videos that explained what boons were and how to dodge but that's preschool level, breakbars I figured out on my own.

Everything else though.

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there are a few approaches to playing this game

play something glassy and force yourself to get good or die. this is a fine approach and seems to be the most popular advice in generalplay something tanky and just don't worry about it. there are plenty of builds that can do a lot of damage without being glassplay something tanky and use the leeway it offers to practice dodging and such without the severe consequences for failing and downtime between attempts

I went with option 3, myself, but if you do that you have to take extra care to ensure it doesn't slip into option 2 if your goal is indeed to get good

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What changed MMOs for me was getting a mouse with 12 thumb buttons. That might sound excessive and indeed it was so I down graded to a mouse with “only” 6 thumb buttons.

In combination with shift and ctrl I could keybind another 12 easy to push buttons on top of the 6.

This way there is no fumbling on the keyboard. I can dodge using a mouse button exactly when I need to and in the direction I want to go. I have all essential combat functions on the thumb buttons of mouse and so many hot keys left over that I have each mount hot keyed as well.

I could never go back to gaming with anything short of a good MOBA gaming mouse.

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@Danikat.8537 said:

That's correct. Dodge does two things: it physically moves you in the direction you dodge (faster than normal running speed), but it also gives you a second of invulnerability. Either one of these things will stop an attack hitting you, but which one is most useful depends on what you're dodging. For example if an enemy is dropping an AoE under you then moving out the way is the most important thing, because once you're outside the range it can't affect you. But if it's a quick acting AoE, one that starts doing damage as soon as the circle appears, then there may not be time to move out the way. But that second of invulnerability mean that even if you're still in the circle it won't hurt you. (You can tell if the attack was stopped this way because white text comes up saying 'evaded'.)

And yes, this applies to all incoming attacks. As long as they hit during the dodge animation you'll evade them.

That's not entirely true. Dodge gives you evade frames, which is enough in almost every case, but you can still be hit by some skills (like shocking aura or guardian's pulls) or objects.

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@Danikat.8537 said:But also you need to remember that not all professions are the same, otherwise there would be no point in having more than 1. For example a guardian probably can't block or blind as much as a reaper (necromancer is the profession I've played least so I'm not that familiar with them), but they have a lot more self-heals, boons and condition removal skills, and several teleport/leap skills. So instead of blocking the attacks they absorb or remove the damage or move out of the way (which could be dodging or teleporting).

WUT?! @_@

Did I accidentally slip into an alternate dimension? The only time a necro has more blocks than an guardian is when that scourge bug was around which essentially gives the scourge infinite block against anything with aegis. Reaper has a total of two projectile destruction skills and they can get aegis if someone sets them on fire first ...

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When I'm fighting, I tend to pull the camera out as far as I can, so I can get a good view of the battle. This allows me to see if there are any AoEs I need to dodge and allows me to see the enemy and any indicators of a direction of attack. Also, I try to dodge only if I'm unable to walk out of the danger zone. If I can walk or run, I do that. I used to be bad about dodging right into an attack because I was trying too hard, eventually I started to focus on the boss and my surroundings and I started to do a little better. I don't know if this will help, but I hope it does.

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The biggest thing with dodging is to hold the direction you want to move in before you hit the dodge. You don't have to be holding it very long, but getting into the habit of doing so will make it so that you don't just dodge randomly or accidentally hit the direction after you hit the dodge.

Most of the big attacks that will either hit hard or incapacitate you in some way do have tells to them. Generally either a long windup or a red AoE marker. A circle, or half circle, or line, etc. They aren't significantly long tells, so you have to keep on your toes.

Learning what attacks to avoid, mitigate, or ignore gets to be fairly important so you don't waste your blocks or evades on weaker attacks leaving yourself open to the stronger ones. Best way to do that is to just fight the mobs in as low a number as you can find and take your time fighting them to see what they do. Pay attention to how far you need to be to avoid being hit, how long it takes the mob to actually make their attack, what the attack looks like so you can recognize it. Sure, you can watch a video about that, but I honestly believe it would be easier and more intuitive to do it yourself.

Knowing what skills to use, and when to use them is also very important. Avoiding damage is always the preferred method in GW2. Sure, you can mitigate damage or remove it or block it, etc. You don't have enough skills on the bar with fast enough cool downs to do that with everything though, so avoiding damage ends up taking priority.

Positioning is very important. Even being just outside melee range can make a big difference. Enough so that there are times where it's worthwhile to step in to make your hit, then step back when the enemy starts their big windup to try to smash you(ettins are a great example of this).

Personally, I think a lot of people focus too much on "rotations, rotations, rotations." A lot of combat can be viewed more intuitively than simply what number do I hit when to get as much damage off as quickly as possible. That type of mechanical efficiency works best in isolated settings, such as dungeons, raids, or pvp. In open world, it's better to know what your options are and use them when appropriate as opposed to trying to tie yourself to some specified set of attacks for every encounter. This is of course at the detriment of doing the absolute maximum DPS, but it significantly aids in survivability. Being willing to step out of the rotation mindset to adapt to ever evolving conditions is important in solo play.

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@Tsakhi.8124 said:When I'm fighting, I tend to pull the camera out as far as I can, so I can get a good view of the battle. This allows me to see if there are any AoEs I need to dodge and allows me to see the enemy and any indicators of a direction of attack. Also, I try to dodge only if I'm unable to walk out of the danger zone. If I can walk or run, I do that. I used to be bad about dodging right into an attack because I was trying too hard, eventually I started to focus on the boss and my surroundings and I started to do a little better. I don't know if this will help, but I hope it does.

Dodging into(as in forward) is actually a good idea. Usually that means even if you mess up the timing a bit you will still avoid the attack by being behind the attacker.

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@"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

It shouldn't be haphazard enough that it's all profession specific. Shouldn't enemies have basic tells that tell you whether a block/blind/dodge/stability is needed, are there certain actions that handle multiple attacks at once (for example one video suggested that while dodging regardless if you get out of the bad or not you are invulnerable)?

If it all breaks down to specific classes with completely unique mechanics then I can see why no one can balance properly.

It isn't and they do. There is a sound that plays and a flash that appears during big, "you should get out of the way now" attacks, and every attack is telegraphed before it happens. If you need practice, go visit Queensdale and Train With the Local Militia (heart quest) around Beetletun.

The "class specifics" they refer to are the different ways each class has for mitigating damage. The simple fact is, you can't be reactive to damage any more. You have to be proactive. This is going to be hard at first, Heart of Thorns is a big difficulty spike from the original content... until you figure it out.

Learn how and when these enemies attack. Look at how they move, what they're doing. Raptors are going to flank you and launch a coordinated spike. Mordrem wolves will charge through you, and destroy you from behind. Mordrem Leechers leave acid trails but won't necessarily chase you. It's all about observation.

Positioning is your best friend. Always keep moving. See where enemy attacks are going and don't be there. You can avoid a lot of attacks simply by walking to a safer place. Very few attacks root you in place, so stay as mobile as you can.

Work together. You aren't a lone hero adventuring anymore. Sometimes the best way to avoid taking damage is getting it to hit someone else. Make use of your AoE CCs and team support options so you aren't getting everyone killed. Again, be alert, be aware. Look for your opportunities or chances to create them.

Don't be afraid to turn tail and run. Retreat is always an option, especially if you can harass or create hazards along the way. Use your experience to reevaluate your approach. Stealth is incredibly powerful, but won't stop an attack in progress.

Examine and adapt your build. If you're getting swarmed by raptors faster than you can evade them, then switch to an AoE weapon and nuke them down before they can hit you. If you can't avoid enough damage by blocking, try combining your blocks with other battlefield controls like barriers and pushes. (Again, positioning is your best friend). If you're not sure when to use a CC, just throw one out and see what happens. Sometimes you just need ranged weapon, or a bigger/faster Heal skill (and remember to use it).

I completely understand your frustration. But, at the risk of being branded an kitten, these are very much "learn to play" issues. You'll get the hang of it, and when you do, you'll feel like such a badkitten.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Something like this is what I'm talking about.

The thing is on the recent episode of TeaTime, Mighty Teapot and Company were discussing that there were not enough resources in game to help teach people coming in, the consensus was literally congratulations on saving Shaemor by pressing 1, welcome to the world and dance in front of cows, good luck your on your own except for a brief dodging game.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/271712861

I can only hope one of these partners steps up to the plate and makes something as comprehensive as Dottz Gaming has for ESO.

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@"Marleen.8549" said:This link is not about different classes and its not youtube but you might find some usefull stuff there about moving and dodging.https://whyigame.wordpress.com/the-beginners-guide-to-movement-in-combat-guild-wars-2/

Thanks, that's helpful.

I'd like to say most of these posts on this thread have been helpful.

I only updated this because I recently found Dottz's updated guide for ESO, while recently watching Tea Time where they're talking about things mentioned in my OP. I figured it was worthy of an update.

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tl;dr all posts, so if it's been said ... sorry.

One main difference between Gw1 and Gw2 is the hopes Gw2 people will naturally group together and fight as a group instead of being solo (with mercs) like in Gw1.The only place I really see people grouping up are Events that require numbers, bounties, and HP/MP trains.

Reaper/MM is my "goto", I have World Completion, HoT completion, and PoF completion with it.My others (ranger, DD, Dragonhunter, and Revenant) all come in far behind.

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