Shadow Arts.

[rdigeri.7935]

At the moment Shadow Arts is the traitline which is rarely ever used, and when it is, in competitive modes it's blamed upon for being unhealthy. I think the main reason for that is that it encourages and supports stealth camping, which is annoying in WvW and not productive in any game mode (except for stalking people to boredom and retreating for a minute every time health's low).Below i share some ideas that i came up with and they're up to constructive criticism

• Traits that grant bonuses during stealth, like Shadow's Embrace and Shadow's Rejuvenation should be changed: SR could give a regen bonus and more ini generation for a certain amount time, upon every time a thief goes into stealth (much like Adrenal Heal on Warrior). My thought on SE was that stealthing gives some Resistance, and 1-2 conditions are transferred to the enemy with stealth attacks. Hidden Thief could work in a similar way.
• Shadow Protector is a useless trait at the moment, instead it could give enemies Weakness in a small radius around the thief when leaving stealth, or give some Vigor to each ally affected.
• Leeching Venoms is not at all connected to Stealth, i think it should swap places with Revealed Training from Deadly Arts traitline, this way both of them are better suited for their traitlines. (Condi thieves are rarely going to run SA)
• Meld With Shadows could be replaced with a trait that gives protection when leaving stealth

(CD-s and such are not included)

So generally i think SA should be focused on sustaining through weaving in and out of stealth instead of how it currently works. Some traits could even encourage not staying in stealth for too long.Let me know what you think, and share your ideas about SA as well!(also first post don't kill me)

[bq pd.2148]

edit: reudce my wall of text to the main points.

stealth camping is annoying, not strong wich is imporant cause if you want to change SA to be used by more, it has to be overall better infight sustain utility wich.

but then again you can permastealth without SA and the only times you get really preassured are on entering stealth and after leaving stealth not while in stealth. therefor if you move the traits to benefit more entering / leaving stealth without nerfing their overall power rather buffing it so more people use it, this can become very overpowered very fast. weaving in and out of stealth is not atleast as annoying as stealth camping, it is also far more dangerous as it puts constant preassure on the oppenet while frequently breaking target. combine that with SAs traits for damage reduction , regen and condi remove and you are pretty much untouchable while attacking.

[saerni.2584]

Welcome to posting ;)

As a condi thief who runs SA I can provide some feedback on your proposals.

Initially, I want to mention that the stealth camping issue has been significantly addressed in the recent Deadeye rework. While stealth camping is possible it is significantly less useful than before. The need to rework SA has to come from more than just “stealth camping thieves are annoying.”

Second, a variation of your suggestion was previously floated in the forum to, essentially, make SA traits “on gaining stealth or on leaving stealth” rather than pulsing in stealth. The feedback wasn’t necessarily 100% negative but there are issues with adjusting individual traits in this manner.

While there are some less useful traits now the big issue is avoiding power creep or inadvertently making niche traits less useful in the future.

First, you suggest:

• Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Gain health and restore initiative on entering stealth.
• Shadow’s Embrace: Gain resistance on entering stealth. Stealth attacks transfer damaging conditions to target.
• Hidden Thief: Using steal grants stealth and superspeed.

SR: This is a nerf unless HP gain and initiative gain are significantly more than currently available. CiS and RS are both solid GM options and this may be lackluster. I can’t decide if this change is needed or how much the final version should add to make it better.

Shadow’s Embrace: This is a significant buff because it adds offensive power to stealth attacks, at least for condition builds. But I like how this rewards landing stealth attacks over sitting longer in stealth just to clear an additional condition.

Hidden Thief: This is a slight nerf. I also don’t see the need for it. Perma stealth doesn’t really need a permanent movement speed bonus to reposition. Non-perma stealth builds won’t see a difference.

You also mention Shadow Protecter but this proposal is too vague without a justification for why this needs to be buffed in a particular way.

Your suggestion for Meld with Shadows also comes across as a random idea and is a significant decrease in the ability of a thief to use non-stealth stacking builds. I use SA to weave in and out of stealth and the duration bonus gives me extra time to reposition before I engage. Decreasing the advantages for camping stealth can be accomplished without gutting the duration bonus that is thematically appropriate to the traitline.

[rdigeri.7935]

SE is powerfull because it is one of the few condition cleanses that only removes damaging conditions. so within a few seconds of stealth you will get rid of any damaging condition. a short resistance and transfer of conditions would be a huge nerf to this while we need buffs for SA to be viable. instead if it removed 3 damaging conditions upon entering stealth it would be a buff in the first few seconds and a nerf if you stay longer.

That's a thought, but removing 3 damaging conditions limits it to damage avoidance, while resistance lets you have full mobility during your stealth phase. It could be a mix though, you gain 3 seconds of resistance during stealth, and get the chance to transfer 2 conditions to the enemy, which prioritizes damaging conditions. This trait would encourage people to stay in combat as they are condibombed

protection when leaving stealth would be better suited for a resillience of shadows replacement.

Good point

you do realize tho that gaining all the SA sustain for weaving therefor aswell when out of stealth will be really strong? and changing the traits benefits wont change the fact that you can still permastealth it will just straight buff anything stealth related as you will only be pressured when entering or leaving stealth.

Well, the trait that gives +1 second of stealth could be changed as well, so it's harder to permastealth. Also, the passive buffs gained on stealthing don't have to have the same numbers as before, they can be less effective, just work outside stealth too.What do you mean they'll only pressure you when entering or leaving stealth?

[bq pd.2148]

@saerni.2584 said:Shadow’s Embrace: This is a significant buff because it adds offensive power to stealth attacks, at least for condition builds. But I like how this rewards landing stealth attacks over sitting longer in stealth just to clear an additional condition.

while it is an offensive buff for a p/d thief, it is a huge defensive nerf for everyone else. with SE you wont have any damaging condition on you after a few seconds of stealth, with that change you will have to use additional condi clears because 1-2 on successfull stealth attack is not even close to the condi clear potential of current SE and that 1-2 seconds resistance is pretty laughable and wont save you from anything.

[bq pd.2148]

@rdigeri.7935 said:That's a thought, but removing 3 damaging conditions limits it to damage avoidance, while resistance lets you have full mobility during your stealth phase. It could be a mix though, you gain 3 seconds of resistance during stealth, and get the chance to transfer 2 conditions to the enemy, which prioritizes damaging conditions. This trait would encourage people to stay in combat as they are condibombedthe issue is that you have to land that stealth attack and that it has to be a stealth attack, because DE will consume malice on stealth attack now if you need to remove conditions you need to blow your malice early. and we got enough options to cleanse mobility imparing conditions not so many to directly adress damaging ones.Well, the trait that gives +1 second of stealth could be changed as well, so it's harder to permastealth. Also, the passive buffs gained on stealthing don't have to have the same numbers as before, they can be less effective, just work outside stealth too.What do you mean they'll only pressure you when entering or leaving stealth?you can permastealth without SA because you can permastealth with combos and they do not benefit from meld in shadows so no changing that doesnt do anything. and here comes also the point of saerni. while permastealth might be annoying it is not strong, annoyance is not a reason to rebalance, weavng in and out is already alot stronger. what i mean with only on entering and leaving is that i currently play alot with camping in stealth and when i enter stealth people shortly pressure that area, they use CC, damage and reveal skills and then they either stop or hit in the complete wrong direction till i decide to come out of stealth. so if i get benefits at the beginning and when leaving stealth wich are buffed so SA is not complete useless but promotes weaving then you also buff stealthcamping alot

stealthcamping is to weaving stealth what running away is to kiting basically. the first is more annoying, the second on the other hand is deadly.

[rdigeri.7935]

Welcome to posting ;):DThe need to rework SA has to come from more than just “stealth camping thieves are annoying.”Well, my initial idea was that SA could/should be more useful and fluid, might just be that my ideas wouldn't achieve that

Second, a variation of your suggestion was previously floated in the forum to, essentially, make SA traits “on gaining stealth or on leaving stealth” rather than pulsing in stealth. The feedback wasn’t necessarily 100% negative but there are issues with adjusting individual traits in this manner.oh, okay! I'll check that out

SR: This is a nerf unless HP gain and initiative gain are significantly more than currently available. CiS and RS are both solid GM options and this may be lackluster. I can’t decide if this change is needed or how much the final version should add to make it better.I see your point. another idea i had was "siphon health from your foe for a few seconds after leaving stealth. doesn't work if you are Revealed". this'd discourage surprise attacks and encourage giving the enemy time to react, while giving sustain for a short duration in trades. how about it? It'd also not let you clear condis and regen at the same time.Hidden Thief: This is a slight nerf. I also don’t see the need for it. Perma stealth doesn’t really need a permanent movement speed bonus to reposition. Non-perma stealth builds won’t see a difference.That's true, this change is unnecessaryYou also mention Shadow Protecter but this proposal is too vague without a justification for why this needs to be buffed in a particular way.My thought was that the boon it gives never justifies taking it, so it could be something useful instead to give variety. it'd work well with non-stealth trades imoYour suggestion for Meld with Shadows also comes across as a random idea and is a significant decrease in the ability of a thief to use non-stealth stacking builds. I use SA to weave in and out of stealth and the duration bonus gives me extra time to reposition before I engage. Decreasing the advantages for camping stealth can be accomplished without gutting the duration bonus that is thematically appropriate to the traitline.Good point.

[Ashgar.3024]

@rdigeri.7935 said:So generally i think SA should be focused on sustaining through weaving in and out of stealth instead of how it currently works. Some traits could even encourage not staying in stealth for too long.

Problem is that its essentially what Deadeye does now and it doesn't even need Shadow Arts to do it effectively. Not entirely sure how they can fix it but i'd like to see the line redesigned into something more support oriented, without relying on Stealth as much.

[bq pd.2148]

@"rdigeri.7935" said:

SR: This is a nerf unless HP gain and initiative gain are significantly more than currently available. CiS and RS are both solid GM options and this may be lackluster. I can’t decide if this change is needed or how much the final version should add to make it better.I see your point. another idea i had was "siphon health from your foe for a few seconds after leaving stealth. doesn't work if you are Revealed". this'd discourage surprise attacks and encourage giving the enemy time to react, while giving sustain for a short duration in trades. how about it? It'd also not let you clear condis and regen at the same time.

why would you want traits that wont work together as a replacement to an underperforming traitline?the issue i see is that you want 2 things at the same time: stronger SA traits and weaker permastealth and want to achieve that with changing SA.

you want to make SA traits stronger in a way that you wont benefit from it when you stealth longer, wich is impossible. with this approach you will either fail to make SA relevant and nerf it to complete useless or you will buff stealth camping. so decide what you really want and make changes with that in mind either better SA or prevent an annoyance. if you want to go against stealth camping you dont need to do anything in SA but simply change the stacking of stealth effects or combos but then you might need to buff to compenstate stuff.

[Devoneaux.6302]

SA works fine for what I use it for. I like to use both it and Trickery keep my enemies in pvp debuffed and the steal cooldown reductions work well with stealth on steal, giving you reliable stealth from any distance on close to a 20 second CD.

If I had to think of one change i'd make it'd probably be to RS, since boon stripping can already be covered by another tree/weapon combo, it'd be better if RS were replaced with say a passive where once every 40 seconds when you stealth attack successfully you automatically re-enter stealth. A powerful ability justified by how far at the end of the tree it is. I would further buff SR by rolling SE into it and then replace SE with something new, and would change CiS to either torment or confuse nearby enemies in addition to its current effects.

In essense I think Shadow arts can be made more appealing by making its meh end talents more attractive, the rest of the kit more or less works fine.

[saerni.2584]

RS is one of our best anti boon abilities.

[Devoneaux.6302]

@saerni.2584 said:RS is one of our best anti boon abilities.

So move it to T1 perhaps since there'd be a spot open there.

Edit: I also would agree that leeching venoms would make more sense in DA than SA and could maybe trade places with the traps(I think?) cdr.

[Scud.5067]

''At the moment Shadow Arts is the traitline which is rarely ever used..''

Is really rarely used, tho? I see many close-quarter focused DE builds running it. Seemingly it functions as their utility/defencive booster - stealth being a key component of such builds.

I'm all for suggestions and theory but until there's actually a solid case for presenting SA as 'rarely used' or a 'problem' then its seems largely academic.

[Menyus.4610]

Why would u want to reduce thieves stealh capacity even further? SA is a stealth Traint Line and mostly its a fine traitline, except that boon strip major trait which is kinda off in this traitline

[kash.9213]

@Menyus.4610 said:Why would u want to reduce thieves stealh capacity even further? SA is a stealth Traint Line and mostly its a fine traitline, except that boon strip major trait which is kinda off in this traitline

If I was a stealth build I would feel like I'd have to take s/d for boon stacks if Rending Shade wasn't in that line. Agree though, SA should still be a stealth manager, but having Revealed Training there like that other thread suggested would be awesome.

[babazhook.6805]

I find SA more then a little usable in current form and especially in DE spec.

Shadows embrace is huge allowing one to flush away the damaging conditions at will. Hidden thief is also more than a little useful allowing rapid movmnet while stealthed and stealth on the steal itself. That stealth on steal in the Rifle spec allows a very reliable opening from range wherein you can send in a non malice DJ unblockbale for a soild hit coupled with boontheft, or help ensure another of the rifle attacks harder to build that malice.

RS , CS and Rejuv are all excellent choices for any DE build. My only real issues with the line is in how SE bundled in with two traits that COULD nbe more useful were SE not so strong. Were that to swap places with Either resilience of shadows or meld with shadows ,and then we were to see shadow protector get a bit more (Apply regen AND some other boon to nearby allies for 6 seconds maybe) it would be fine.

[derd.6413]

SA is mostly fine it's more stealth in general that's a problem

[bq pd.2148]

@babazhook.6805 said:I find SA more then a little usable in current form and especially in DE spec.

Shadows embrace is huge allowing one to flush away the damaging conditions at will. Hidden thief is also more than a little useful allowing rapid movmnet while stealthed and stealth on the steal itself. That stealth on steal in the Rifle spec allows a very reliable opening from range wherein you can send in a non malice DJ unblockbale for a soild hit coupled with boontheft, or help ensure another of the rifle attacks harder to build that malice.

RS , CS and Rejuv are all excellent choices for any DE build. My only real issues with the line is in how SE bundled in with two traits that COULD nbe more useful were SE not so strong. Were that to swap places with Either resilience of shadows or meld with shadows ,and then we were to see shadow protector get a bit more (Apply regen AND some other boon to nearby allies for 6 seconds maybe) it would be fine.

i like that concealed defeat cannot be taken with SE, most deadeyes i see in WvW are unable to keep their stealth up properly so the run shadow refuge and blinding powder and Hide in Shadows with the deception cooldown reduction from concealed defeat you will see that smokescreen pop up when you kill most deadeyes. as a trade off they will die to conditions. i have seen maybe 2-3 DEs in WvW aside from me running SE over concealed defeat. i think they could put CiS instead of Last Refuge, put Last Refuge into Master and give us a new Grandmaster for shadow protector.because CiS is basically for power damage what SE is for condi damage, you cant die to it while stealthed.

the thing about SA is that the good traits mostly do their stuff while you are stealthed so you cannot profit from it while putting pressure on your opponent. and while stealthed you cannot capture an spvp point, cannot produce any warscore in WvW and in PvE you usually have to kill stuff (leave stealth) aswell. with a focus on acro as defensive line over SA you will evade more then stealth and altho you cannot put preassure on your opponent while evading apart from steal on core / dd and the DD damage evades, you also dont lose a capture point in WvW , SPvP and PvE mobs do not reset during an evade.SA basically improves your recovery between engages while often keeping your opponent in combat slowing their recovery down. so SA + stealth is better for hit and run play then mobility is. and this playstyle has only use in WvW roaming as you have the time to do that there.focusing the SA recovery on entering/leaving is essentially shorting the recovery time and it will be like super fast resets every time you weave in and out of stealth wich will be pretty OP but used more. if it does not do that then it would be a nerf to current SA while the OP clearly says he wants to improve SA so it is used more.

[SoulSin.5682]

I think I will agree with "derd.6413"

The problem is not the SA trait line. The problem nowadays is the state of Stealth.

Back in the days where stealth was less restrictive SA was almost mandatory. SA was great for prolonging stealth, recovery and initiative management. And had good synergy with D/P and D/D set.

Nowadays SA is competing with or Trickery, or Specializations, or Deadly Arts, or Critical Strikes (that used to be sh*t and now its actually good for PvE).The point is not if SA is good or bad, the point is what are you letting down to pick it up.

• If you not bring DA or CS your damage becomes pathetic for a class that can't actually engage in duel anyone for longer duration's properly.
• If you give up Trickster.... well you are giving Trickster. Less damage, less initiative, less movement, less stealth, no boon stealing, even less swiftness, even less access to fury, condi removal or whatever you make use of the, most likely, best Thief traitline
• You play vanilla thief..... and... well... loses all advantages of specializations. I won't say it's "bad" but save S/D (that picks Acrobatics, not SA), Any Dagger set of Vanilla Thief, either Power or Condi, loses to Daredevil overall.

The only situation that I would recommend SA is D/P Thief for Free Accounts.DE can make use of it, but if you want to make use of the best damage available for MBS or DJ, you want to use something else. Its a big dilemma.

PS: I recognize SA as our best defensive traitline. Amazing Condi Removal, Amazing Regeneration and Amazing Damage reduction. But Thiefs are no duelist by design and we, sincerely, have few to no use to that sustain.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"SoulSin.5682" said:I think I will agree with "derd.6413"

The problem is not the SA trait line. The problem nowadays is the state of Stealth.

Back in the days where stealth was less restrictive SA was almost mandatory. SA was great for prolonging stealth, recovery and initiative management. And had good synergy with D/P and D/D set.

Nowadays SA is competing with or Trickery, or Specializations, or Deadly Arts, or Critical Strikes (that used to be kitten and now its actually good for PvE).The point is not if SA is good or bad, the point is what are you letting down to pick it up.

• If you not bring DA or CS your damage becomes pathetic for a class that can't actually engage in duel anyone for longer duration's properly.
• If you give up Trickster.... well you are giving Trickster. Less damage, less initiative, less movement, less stealth, no boon stealing, even less swiftness, even less access to fury, condi removal or whatever you make use of the, most likely, best Thief traitline
• You play vanilla thief..... and... well... loses all advantages of specializations. I won't say it's "bad" but save S/D (that picks Acrobatics, not SA), Any Dagger set of Vanilla Thief, either Power or Condi, loses to Daredevil overall.

The only situation that I would recommend SA is D/P Thief for Free Accounts.DE can make use of it, but if you want to make use of the best damage available for MBS or DJ, you want to use something else. Its a big dilemma.

PS: I recognize SA as our best defensive traitline. Amazing Condi Removal, Amazing Regeneration and Amazing Damage reduction. But Thiefs are no duelist by design and we, sincerely, have few to no use to that sustain.

I still enjoy SA for deadeye as you said, the issue is that all of the sustain is forcing us to disengage. That said I think that's needed, as while we're visible we're vulnerable (window of opportunity for the other classes) and frankly we should be potent gankers but not sustained fighters. We're a "pick your moment" sort of class, not a "keep the momentum" class, and SA works well for that imo.

[Grandtomatoe.2045]

I have played more condi thief than god and I run leaching venoms in shadow arts. the cool down bonus is great, the small amount of damage helps on burst and the small amount of healing helps too. i love shadow arts and cant give it up.

[yiksing.9432]

I love the Shadow Arts line, its my only source of condi clear and the speed during stealth.

[babazhook.6805]

@Grandtomatoe.2045 said:I have played more condi thief than god and I run leaching venoms in shadow arts. the cool down bonus is great, the small amount of damage helps on burst and the small amount of healing helps too. i love shadow arts and cant give it up.

Try it with a shamans apothecary settlers mix. That small heal can jump to a 3500 heal quite easily.

[Bunny.9834]

Shadows Arts and Stealthing would be great if they buff condi-thief is stronger and more potent.

[Xtinct.7031]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Grandtomatoe.2045 said:I have played more condi thief than god and I run leaching venoms in shadow arts. the cool down bonus is great, the small amount of damage helps on burst and the small amount of healing helps too. i love shadow arts and cant give it up.

Try it with a shamans apothecary settlers mix. That small heal can jump to a 3500 heal quite easily.

lol @ the people playing core condition thief in 2018, especially in a low dmg, low plus condi duration apoth mix. Sounds great in theory, but im pretty sure you will never bring anyone down in the field solo using that crap.