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Suggestion: Boost Dagger Damage in Critical Strikes Trait line


Crab Fear.1624

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In my opinion daggers for thieves are a bit underpowered.

My suggestion is this:

*10% damage boost on daggers, but only when dual wielding daggers. Maybe 5% for each dagger instead. (set this boost into critical strikes)

Critical Strikes is a pretty offensive traitline so there is a sacrifice to a sustain trait, and I dont know if its for me but wielding two daggers on a thief takes a bit more skill and you have to be in on the action without a shadowshot 3 spam skill.

I have all the expansions, and even on another account so I am not trying to get my "free" status boosted to compete with elites.

But how often outside of 3,3,3 silver tier condi thieves do you ever see a double dagger thief? (maybe a few in WvW)

The set seems mostly power.

Honestly, I also wish they would remove the bleed from death blossom, and replace it with cripple. Make the attack only hit once for the full damage instead of being divided up by 3. Keep the evade. It doesn't even need to leap in the sense of heartseeker.

In my opinion this is one of the hardest sets to play considering the other options.

Of course this is just all my feels...I want to play dag/dag because i like the archetype of the shadow rogue. Plus I feel like some rework to daggers in some way may pull away from triple 3 thieves...

or as i like to call them THREEVES

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@"Scud.5067" said:o-O Things already pop with Daggers, Critical Strike, .... , and DE

No they don't. DE only boosts the stealth attack. Vallun just posted a montage,,,,I dont remember any dag/dag sets in it.

Can you post some videos of this poppin? preferably within the last dagger nerf and in SPvP

I figured I would be seeing all kinds of dagger/dagger thieves (non-condi type) if they were that "poppin"

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Wait, do you want to take a pass at the Critical Strike line or rework D/D?

If you have a problem with D/D, that's one thing. What exactly are the problems you are having with the setup?

And then, why do you think the Critical Strike line should be the place to address them?

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@Scud.5067 said:Wait, do you want to take a pass at the Critical Strike line or rework D/D?

If you have a problem with D/D, that's one thing. What exactly are the problems you are having with the setup?

And then, why do you think the Critical Strike line should be the place to address them?

The setup doesnt hit hard enough unless the target is low on health, or you are in stealth.

The utility in a sword/dagger build is better, and if you take acrobatics you can get a damage modifier and a free steal.

Dagger auto attack is pretty risky in todays conquest meta, so hanging around pressing 1 for more than a few miliseconds is ____.

The auto-attack hits like a wet noodle.Now to be clear I am speaking from a SPvP perspective. You can't mix gear, or access certain types of gear, no food or area buffs like WvW.

d/p is useful because of stealth in the weapon kit access, and shadow shot is a step and blind (but notice even they have died off in SPvP minus a few outliers)

If damage was going to be boosted per dagger, it should go into critical strikes. (5% boost per dagger equipped), because not alot of sustain will come with the line....it's a sacrifice to hit harder.

The set does not steal boons without it traited in steal or weapon sigils.

In spvp you can't just roam around and reset for duels. There are points to control.

Some classes run and pulse damage and power negating conditions.

I would like to see a set that does not just spam 3 or 5 in spvp.

In my OP, i made a suggestion to the daggers skill rework.

But, I don't learn to well from reading, so if you have some videos, or know of players making it work in todays meta (power dag/dag), please link. I will watch and learn better that way.

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Ok, thank you - that's a lot clearer.I must admit, I can't recall the last time I encountered a D/D focused thief. I wish I could make an informed suggestion but, and perhaps this is a symptom of what you describe, I've never felt the need to build around D/D. Perhaps that of itself, is kinda telling!

From my outsiders perspective, it does seem D/D could do with some love. Or at least, there needs to be something there to make me, personally, want to go near such a setup. D/P has burst and stealth, S/D mobility and boon strip. P/P has mindless, readily counterable yet hefty damage spam.

D/D? ...

(Come to think of it, what's also the appeal of S/P?)

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well the DE build i use in WvW could replace its d/p set with d/d because i technically dont need any other skill then malicious backstab and heartseeker. but then again why would i use offhand dagger then unless it boosts my damage and for style pistol just offers more utility so i stick to it. 5% more damage per dagger in critical strikes would potentially buff my build by at least 5% damage on the dagger set as i run critical strikes.

may i ask were you would put that damage modifier ?currently i have in critical strikes : the minor traits 5% crit chance above 90% health, 40% uptime fury when striking a target below 90% health, 10% damage modifier to critical hits. and major traits: 7% increased crit chance from behind + 7% damage modifier for critical hits , 10% of precision converted into ferocity, fury grants 250 ferocity and once applied is pretty much 100% uptime.all minor and major traits selected increase damage, replacing one with a 5-10% damage would not change much so i guess you want to add it to something, my pick would be practiced tolerance so you gain ferocity based on precision (any weapon )+ dagger modifier (per dagger).

i dont know how things are in spvp right now didnt really play that mode since they changed that trait system from like 6,0,0,6,3 to the new one before HoT. but watching videos from spvp those numbers seem ridiculously low compared to what i do in WvW, so i am not sure if 10% increase would help enough. on the other hand i think you dont have such defensive guys running around like minstrel or trailblaizer builds wich would be unkillable with spvp like damage.

imo dagger is more in need of mechanical changes then changes to its damage.

  • backstab cast is too long the after cast is already super long but the long animation itself forces the thief to be really close to his opponent wich leads to backstab mostly used with a teleport together.
  • you are too vulnerable during heartseeker, how often do you use this skill in range and with LoS to your opponent? its just super risky a long animation in wich you are locked and can only leave with weapon swap. this skill is mostly used for the leap finisher. not sure what exactly to do about this one.
  • dancing dagger used to be good damage wise and cripple was better at the beginning of the game but now there is soo many cleanses you wont really get to your opponent by crippling them from afar, this should immobilze if it hits an opponent in the back.*CnD is too easily completly negated considering it costs nearly half of your base ini, if you do not already have stealth it should allways apply the stealth regardless of successfull hit.
  • DB while it is good to spamm it against not so good players, it leaves you vulnerable when you land and imo the condi application doesnt really fit in there and should be moved to a set that is more focused around stacking conditions. either shortbow or p/d. instead DB could become a skill that will teleport you in the back of your opponent on a maybe 450-600 range similar to that mirage axe skill maybe even breaking target for probably 5 ini. then you could change twin fangs to deal more damage from behind/flanking per dagger, move the crit change part into the first minor trait that is already doing the same and the ferocity part into practiced tolerance.
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@MUDse.7623 said:well the DE build i use in WvW could replace its d/p set with d/d because i technically dont need any other skill then malicious backstab and heartseeker. but then again why would i use offhand dagger then unless it boosts my damage and for style pistol just offers more utility so i stick to it. 5% more damage per dagger in critical strikes would potentially buff my build by at least 5% damage on the dagger set as i run critical strikes.

may i ask were you would put that damage modifier ?currently i have in critical strikes : the minor traits 5% crit chance above 90% health, 40% uptime fury when striking a target below 90% health, 10% damage modifier to critical hits. and major traits: 7% increased crit chance from behind + 7% damage modifier for critical hits , 10% of precision converted into ferocity, fury grants 250 ferocity and once applied is pretty much 100% uptime.all minor and major traits selected increase damage, replacing one with a 5-10% damage would not change much so i guess you want to add it to something, my pick would be practiced tolerance so you gain ferocity based on precision (any weapon )+ dagger modifier (per dagger).

i dont know how things are in spvp right now didnt really play that mode since they changed that trait system from like 6,0,0,6,3 to the new one before HoT. but watching videos from spvp those numbers seem ridiculously low compared to what i do in WvW, so i am not sure if 10% increase would help enough. on the other hand i think you dont have such defensive guys running around like minstrel or trailblaizer builds wich would be unkillable with spvp like damage.

imo dagger is more in need of mechanical changes then changes to its damage.

  • backstab cast is too long the after cast is already super long but the long animation itself forces the thief to be really close to his opponent wich leads to backstab mostly used with a teleport together.
  • you are too vulnerable during heartseeker, how often do you use this skill in range and with LoS to your opponent? its just super risky a long animation in wich you are locked and can only leave with weapon swap. this skill is mostly used for the leap finisher. not sure what exactly to do about this one.
  • dancing dagger used to be good damage wise and cripple was better at the beginning of the game but now there is soo many cleanses you wont really get to your opponent by crippling them from afar, this should immobilze if it hits an opponent in the back.*CnD is too easily completly negated considering it costs nearly half of your base ini, if you do not already have stealth it should allways apply the stealth regardless of successfull hit.
  • DB while it is good to spamm it against not so good players, it leaves you vulnerable when you land and imo the condi application doesnt really fit in there and should be moved to a set that is more focused around stacking conditions. either shortbow or p/d. instead DB could become a skill that will teleport you in the back of your opponent on a maybe 450-600 range similar to that mirage axe skill maybe even breaking target for probably 5 ini. then you could change twin fangs to deal more damage from behind/flanking per dagger, move the crit change part into the first minor trait that is already doing the same and the ferocity part into practiced tolerance.

Well you got more insight than me on the set.

I too think a mechanical change might be even better than damage bonus.

But if I was going to put the damage modifier anywhere, probably in Sundering Shade, or add it to it. That kind of play style might be more in line with stealth attackers though, so tbh im not sure.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:well the DE build i use in WvW could replace its d/p set with d/d because i technically dont need any other skill then malicious backstab and heartseeker. but then again why would i use offhand dagger then unless it boosts my damage and for style pistol just offers more utility so i stick to it. 5% more damage per dagger in critical strikes would potentially buff my build by at least 5% damage on the dagger set as i run critical strikes.

may i ask were you would put that damage modifier ?currently i have in critical strikes : the minor traits 5% crit chance above 90% health, 40% uptime fury when striking a target below 90% health, 10% damage modifier to critical hits. and major traits: 7% increased crit chance from behind + 7% damage modifier for critical hits , 10% of precision converted into ferocity, fury grants 250 ferocity and once applied is pretty much 100% uptime.all minor and major traits selected increase damage, replacing one with a 5-10% damage would not change much so i guess you want to add it to something, my pick would be practiced tolerance so you gain ferocity based on precision (any weapon )+ dagger modifier (per dagger).

i dont know how things are in spvp right now didnt really play that mode since they changed that trait system from like 6,0,0,6,3 to the new one before HoT. but watching videos from spvp those numbers seem ridiculously low compared to what i do in WvW, so i am not sure if 10% increase would help enough. on the other hand i think you dont have such defensive guys running around like minstrel or trailblaizer builds wich would be unkillable with spvp like damage.

imo dagger is more in need of mechanical changes then changes to its damage.
  • backstab cast is too long the after cast is already super long but the long animation itself forces the thief to be really close to his opponent wich leads to backstab mostly used with a teleport together.
  • you are too vulnerable during heartseeker, how often do you use this skill in range and with LoS to your opponent? its just super risky a long animation in wich you are locked and can only leave with weapon swap. this skill is mostly used for the leap finisher. not sure what exactly to do about this one.
  • dancing dagger used to be good damage wise and cripple was better at the beginning of the game but now there is soo many cleanses you wont really get to your opponent by crippling them from afar, this should immobilze if it hits an opponent in the back.*CnD is too easily completly negated considering it costs nearly half of your base ini, if you do not already have stealth it should allways apply the stealth regardless of successfull hit.
  • DB while it is good to spamm it against not so good players, it leaves you vulnerable when you land and imo the condi application doesnt really fit in there and should be moved to a set that is more focused around stacking conditions. either shortbow or p/d. instead DB could become a skill that will teleport you in the back of your opponent on a maybe 450-600 range similar to that mirage axe skill maybe even breaking target for probably 5 ini. then you could change twin fangs to deal more damage from behind/flanking per dagger, move the crit change part into the first minor trait that is already doing the same and the ferocity part into practiced tolerance.

Well you got more insight than me on the set.

I too think a mechanical change might be even better than damage bonus.

But if I was going to put the damage modifier anywhere, probably in Sundering Shade, or add it to it. That kind of play style might be more in line with stealth attackers though, so tbh im not sure.

the issue with putting it in sundering strikes is that you still do not get that much of a boost to your big hitter backstab then as you would lose practised tolerance. if you want to increase the raw damage you need to improve the already optimal damage traits in that line and CS already offers huge damage boosts. cause if you add the boost to a trait in there that is not the best damage boost, then you wont get that much more damage out of it.

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I think daggers themselves need a boost too. Currently the power build is too reliant backstabs+AA, heartseeker needs to be put in the forefront of dmg.

There needs to be more ways to apply condition dmg outside of Death Blossom. I think add more condition dmg to the AA chain by either making the 2nd attack apply bleed or make 1st attack apply poison, 2nd bleed and 3rd bleed + poison. Death blossom needs to apply its bleeds at greater intensity. Its not useful in anything other than raids atm when trash dies so fast. Maybe speed up its animation a touch to make it a better gap closer too.

As for changes to traits, I think:

  • leeching venoms needs to be moved from SA (stealth themed) to DA (condi themed) in place of revealed training so you just need DA for all your condition dmg stuff.

  • Sundering shade is also something that is more suited to SA rather than CS.

  • I think Dagger training in DA should provide you with the dagger bonus dmg (if any trait were to do that). Currently it provides benefits to condi damage only and only poison on a proc.

  • Make ankle shots 10% dmg to pistols always on.

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@eldrjth.7384 said:I think daggers themselves need a boost too. Currently the power build is too reliant backstabs+AA, heartseeker needs to be put in the forefront of dmg.

There needs to be more ways to apply condition dmg outside of Death Blossom. I think add more condition dmg to the AA chain by either making the 2nd attack apply bleed or make 1st attack apply poison, 2nd bleed and 3rd bleed + poison. Death blossom needs to apply its bleeds at greater intensity. Its not useful in anything other than raids atm when trash dies so fast. Maybe speed up its animation a touch to make it a better gap closer too.

As for changes to traits, I think:

  • leeching venoms needs to be moved from SA (stealth themed) to DA (condi themed) in place of revealed training so you just need DA for all your condition dmg stuff.

  • Sundering shade is also something that is more suited to SA rather than CS.

  • I think Dagger training in DA should provide you with the dagger bonus dmg (if any trait were to do that). Currently it provides benefits to condi damage only and only poison on a proc.

  • Make ankle shots 10% dmg to pistols always on.

HS doesn't need more damage. It's working as intended as an execute and a leap finisher. Any adjustments to MH dagger also affect D/P which does nothing to help D/D. I do not miss the days of HS spam. Good riddance.

DA is not a condi line. It's a line with some condi synergy. But it also has traits that give 10% and 20% power damage and a power-scaling extra attack, as well as multiple potent utility options such as Weakness and Immob. Unless they plan to rework DA again and basically consolidate all the good things from DA into CS and Tr, DA is not a condi line but a hybrid line.

Moreover, SA getting offensive power would make it overtuned, particularly with Deadeye, because the defenses in SA are absolutely crazy strong when abusing stealth stacking. Unless they rework SA and stealth to provide bonuses for weaving rather than camping it, RT makes little to no sense there. Leeching Venoms should honestly just be deleted and the siphoning effect moved to replace the garbage on Ice Drake Venom.

DT used to. It wasn't really helpful because D/D's problems are in kit design and not damage, and most of DA's traits are so good it was never taken outside of PvE, anyways.

P/P doesn't need more damage, either. They've literally doubled Unload's damage in recent years, made it the most efficient source of damage on the thief from an initiative POV, and it's currently something that can pretty much be infinitely spammed on the Deadeye. P/P, like D/D, has systemic issues that don't make it immediately top-tier at the highest level of play, just because it's easily-countered. P/P gains traction based on the meta, however, unlike D/D; D/D is just objectively worse than D/P.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Thief used to have a stat boost for daggers in CS. It was removed however.

Yup. 5% per dagger. It was the old DT trait before it had condi/poison synergy with DA.

It failed to make sense after a lot of changes that happened in the game, ranging from the removal of being able to invest in more than three trait lines to the fact that DA was a power damage line just as CS was, to the fact that coupling weapons to trait lines was generally a bad idea (though they've gone back on this with Acrobatics and all elite specs).

The only way to fix kit discrepancies is a major overhaul of the thief. Touching skill 3 isn't enough for most kits; skills 2-4 should be dual skills and the weapons balanced in concept and initiative costs respectively from there.

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