Toning Down Maguuma

[Khisanth.2948]

Meh both regions have their share of poorly designed mobs

[Ayrilana.1396]

Can we define “poorly designed”? It seems people are conflating it with “I don’t like it”.

[Endless Soul.5178]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Can we define “poorly designed”? It seems people are conflating it with “I don’t like it”.

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone who says "poorly designed" is a game design expert that shouldn't be questioned.

[Lobsters.3869]

I upgraded to Heart of Thrones and went to first area, I think it's verdant brink. Looked around, liked grabbing the flax, but then It is all frogs. Even whole town of frogs. I'll have nothing to do with any kind of frog town and I'm done with Heart of Thorn.

[Shostie.6435]

@Pifil.5193 said:

@"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:I'm kind of shocked, though, that people don't report the same experience in PoF. Most of the enemies on those maps are similar to, or more advanced versions of, the HoT enemies. Jungle vines <=> sand sharks. Mordrem Sniper <=> Hookhead. The ones that don't are usually worse, looking at you forged assemblers and whatever those spinning blade floating things are.

I suspect that's because many of us "got gud" during HoT and didn't even realise it. :)Perhaps, but I think space (due to map layout) is a major factor. You can simply run away from most mobs in PoF because you're rarely fighting in a confined space. Sand sharks are more powerful than jungle vines (everything else being equal), but I would rather fight a sand shark in the middle of a wide open desert than fight jungle vines on a ledge. You can make a similar statement about Mordrem Snipers and Hookheads.

You can bypass almost all open-world PoF content with or without mounts. Mounts have made traversing HoT maps trivial, but HoT was much more difficult to traverse before PoF.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I disagree with the difficulty to traverse but that’s just from my POV. A brand new character created and easily explore most of the HoT maps with the exception of a few areas that they get one-shotted and can’t be avoided.

There was some difficulty when HoT first came out due to the lack is mastered masteries but then what would the point of the masteries be if they didn’t improve things.

[Shostie.6435]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I disagree with the difficulty to traverse but that’s just from my POV. A brand new character created and easily explore most of the HoT maps with the exception of a few areas that they get one-shotted and can’t be avoided.

I don't understand what you think we disagree on.

[Malediktus.9250]

HoT was already nerfed twice, it is just a get good issue at this point

[starlinvf.1358]

@Conncept.7638 said:

@"TheMaverick.6104" said:Pocketraptors arent that bad, just make sure to use your aoe. ?

That's the entire issue with HoT, it was made difficult without any concern about interraction; it's chock full of mobs that require specific mechanics which the build or even the entire class you are playing may or

may not

have, and even mechanics that defy what the base game taught you was good play and buildcraft. And then you finally get fed up with the mob that's harassing you, change your build in a way that makes it less fun and you're not used to but gets you through the Grenth awful jungle, only for you to find another mob down the road that you need the specific mechanics you just

removed

from your build to deal with

the last mob

! HoT did a lot of good things it didn't get credit for in the end, as people are now finding in their many and varied critiques of PoF, but mob and small scale encounter design were not one of them.

I feel like it needs to be said that this was the entire point of HOT, because the players (at the time) were complaining about Core Tyria being too much of a cake walk, and thus no need for build competence. Secondly, "may or may not have" is false once you realize all the Especs have a skritt load of AOE and CCs baked into their design specifically to deal with this type of encounter setup. Its only Jarring at first, because nothing in Core teaches caution or awareness, and POF encourages selective aggro with higher per mob threat level, and the open space to practice it.

HOT is largely about managing large groups of enemies, constant movement, and target priority. Its a somewhat simple design puzzle that peaked quickly, because the difficulty is lost once you're past the learning curve. It might look like spam chaos at first- but HOT mobs are designed as team comp, which makes them harder to fight when they are grouped. But if you eliminate their control archetypes first (the ones that CC), the whole group comp collapses, since theres nothing to keep you pressured. Even the Druid, which doesn't have a strong offensive set up, has several PbAOE controls to manage mobs.... and thats enough to deal with most small groups.

I used to hate HOT at first because of this..... but once realizing their group hierarchies, building around this was trivially easy with the Especs. In hind sight, HOTs biggest claim to fame was sheer shock value. But you don't need to overspecialize to fight them, unless you're strictly running a Core build that lacks AOE.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Shostie.6435 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I disagree with the difficulty to traverse but that’s just from my POV. A brand new character created and easily explore most of the HoT maps with the exception of a few areas that they get one-shotted and can’t be avoided.

I don't understand what you think we disagree on.

This:

@Shostie.6435 said:but HoT was much more difficult to traverse before PoF.

Unless you’re just making the statement in general as mounts made traversing everywhere easier instead of HoT being difficult to traverse.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Kolache.3964 said:

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:A small minority of less experienced players often voice their concern that the content is "too difficult" - the vast majority of the population enjoy the challenging aspect of it.

I thought the reviews/sales reflected HoT not generally being well received? Especially not by the vast majority. Was this fake news? I'm so confused these days--no sarcasm :)

It's been a few years since HoT released and a major patch addreSsing many of the initial complaints went in the following April. These days the HoT maps are reliably active and seem quite popular.

[Ashen.2907]

As much as I do not care for the HoT maps, the encounters are just about right IMO.

[Omega.6801]

HoT maps have already been toned down and are at a rather good place right now. The mobs teach you to 1)pack some more def if needed, 2) actually think about how and when to engage and 3) care about the skills you are using. On top of that, it's supposed to be a scary jungle, it's enemy territory and thus deserves to be harder.As soon as you get used to it, you will se that you improved in the game and that the rest of tyria so far is a joke.

[Raizel.8175]

@Lobsters.3869 said:I upgraded to Heart of Thrones and went to first area, I think it's verdant brink. Looked around, liked grabbing the flax, but then It is all frogs. Even whole town of frogs. I'll have nothing to do with any kind of frog town and I'm done with Heart of Thorn.

Are you trolling? There are both friendly and hostile frog-people in Core-Tyria. So why is a frog-village like Jaka Itzel stupid now? Itzel are quite cute tbh.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@CrazyMinxi.6810 said:Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right. So I am making this thread as mainly as discussion and maybe hopefully getting the attention of ArenaNet. For I believe that the mobs are WAY too hostile (I am looking at you pocket raptors) and the EXP gain is so slow compared to PoF. What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?

I totally get you, and 3 months ago when I first steeped into HoT, I hated it and wanted to /ragequit.Fast forward 3 months and a full set of ascended gear, along with 350ish hours of play on my character, as well as fully unlocked masteries....I spend way more time in HoT than I do in PoF.

You get used to it, honestly. It is crushing on new players - no doubt, but give it time and you'll find yourself overcoming that challenge. Them Bladedancers though....

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:

Here's a little video I made in response to a similar thread awhile back. This is just my little healer ele taking a run through the canyon of pocket raptor murder.

Great vid. I love pocket raptors now. Great way to build up bloodlust stacks before Tarir event., and they are kinda fun to farm (for no reason). I just leap in on my Guardian and hit GS 3 or on my Daredevil and spam 5 twice.

[Goettel.4389]

It's an MMO brother, squad up.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Shostie.6435 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I disagree with the difficulty to traverse but that’s just from my POV. A brand new character created and easily explore most of the HoT maps with the exception of a few areas that they get one-shotted and can’t be avoided.

I don't understand what you think we disagree on.

This:

@Shostie.6435 said:but HoT was much more difficult to traverse before PoF.

Unless you’re just making the statement in general as mounts made traversing everywhere easier instead of HoT being difficult to traverse.

HoT was not necessarily harder to traverse, but needed mastery tracks like ley line gliding and nuhoch lore to be worked on before certain parts could be traversed or that certain map criteria needed to be completed before other areas were accessible.. all boils down to some players just didn't want to stop to bother with the detail instead just wanting to faceroll everything and rush through it all without knowing what to do in order to do it.. or build their toons in ways that gave them a little more survivability as they worked through the maps.

[Cyninja.2954]

Many have pointed this out already, HoT was re-tuned two or three times in the 6 months following its release. The enemies now barely tickle compared to what they originally did. This isn't even hyperbole, the pocket raptors could basically 2-3 shot you (only 1 of them and they are usually packed), the snipers would go invisible and basically 1-shot any player who was targeted by them and any one in front and behind them from veteran and above. This went so far that multiple groups of players could get downed on later maps if an elite sniper decided to shoot someone in the back.

That said, here are some hints:

• take defensive utilities, especially condition cleanse if you are having a tough time against certain enemies

• get good at dodging attacks

• don't stand in stuff that makes you go dead, unlike core Tyria here it actually will succeed

• don't go full glass canon until you can manage. That full berserker set might look mighty fine on your elementalist and the amount of silver/gold you'll have to spend on revives it just might start shinning

• exotics are the name of the game. Sure experienced players can manage in blues,greens and rares ib HoT when rushing an alternate character through the story. As a first timer, go orange (or better pink)

• do Living World Season 2

• expect some more uphill battles in Living World Season 3 and 4. Arenanet aren't messing with the difficulty, they are expecting you to eventually get good at playing your class (or bring a ton of friends to compensate, story instances do not scale to players)

• eventually participate in the meta events (all maps are on 2 hour cycles basically). Especially Tarir and Tangled Depths get run constantly in multiple instances, are very lucrative and give a ton of experience

[zaekeon.5128]

I think OP has a valid point. Any new player coming in is going to have greens, yellows or maybe exotic when they hit 80 and want to start HoT. The difficulty, confusing map design (keep in mind they will have no masteries), loads of mobs, etc are a little much to throw all at once considering where core Tyria leaves off. Someone can very easily go 1-80 and still be missing tons of insights into game mechanics, builds etc.

The jungle in general is just so frustrating at first that I think it becomes a huge turn off to new players to the point that it’s unfun to play and they won’t even bother looking anything up because they are done with the game at that point...Some classes are definitely worse off than others for this whole experience.

[Khaliel.3918]

Tone down HoT because PoF exp is higher? Hell no mate, tune up PoF and then give HoT more exp.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@zaekeon.5128 said:I think OP has a valid point. Any new player coming in is going to have greens, yellows or maybe exotic when they hit 80 and want to start HoT. The difficulty, confusing map design (keep in mind they will have no masteries), loads of mobs, etc are a little much to throw all at once considering where core Tyria leaves off. Someone can very easily go 1-80 and still be missing tons of insights into game mechanics, builds etc.

The jungle in general is just so frustrating at first that I think it becomes a huge turn off to new players to the point that it’s unfun to play and they won’t even bother looking anything up because they are done with the game at that point...Some classes are definitely worse off than others for this whole experience.

Just lvling your toon to 80 will award you with exotics via story and lvling up rewards as well as a whole range of crafting skills at their disposal and coin to buy other equipment if you seek to gear up enough to survive and make a difference.. I mean exotics are cheap as chips these days compared to when it first landed. There are even karma exotics available or wvw reward tracks.. any player these days should be able to gear to exotics fairly easy/cheaply compared to the good ole days ..Do story to get to key map areas and then join grps to run events/meta and you will always see mentor tags or mastery /hp run's.You can't expect to just turn up on a new map, especially a new expansion and expect to be able to know where to go, how to get around otherwise it would of been nothing more than same old same old.. where's the fun in that.. lvling up to 80 is only part of the learning curve. Some players just lack the patience and expect everything to fall at their feet or its bad design, nerf it, don't like it.

[zaekeon.5128]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@zaekeon.5128 said:I think OP has a valid point. Any new player coming in is going to have greens, yellows or maybe exotic when they hit 80 and want to start HoT. The difficulty, confusing map design (keep in mind they will have no masteries), loads of mobs, etc are a little much to throw all at once considering where core Tyria leaves off. Someone can very easily go 1-80 and still be missing tons of insights into game mechanics, builds etc.

The jungle in general is just so frustrating at first that I think it becomes a huge turn off to new players to the point that it’s unfun to play and they won’t even bother looking anything up because they are done with the game at that point...Some classes are definitely worse off than others for this whole experience.

Just lvling your toon to 80 will award you with exotics via story and lvling up rewards as well as a whole range of crafting skills at their disposal and coin to buy other equipment if you seek to gear up enough to survive and make a difference.. I mean exotics are cheap as chips these days compared to when it first landed. There are even karma exotics available or wvw reward tracks.. any player these days should be able to gear to exotics fairly easy/cheaply compared to the good ole days .. do story

Yes true but keep in mind new players...they may not even do the story let alone have any idea where to even start when it comes to gearing up. There’s so many ways to do things that it’s quite daunting...

If you are a player of another mmo you may naturally assume lots of ways to get gear may be inefficient or outdated and thus skip to the expansion.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@zaekeon.5128 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@zaekeon.5128 said:I think OP has a valid point. Any new player coming in is going to have greens, yellows or maybe exotic when they hit 80 and want to start HoT. The difficulty, confusing map design (keep in mind they will have no masteries), loads of mobs, etc are a little much to throw all at once considering where core Tyria leaves off. Someone can very easily go 1-80 and still be missing tons of insights into game mechanics, builds etc.

The jungle in general is just so frustrating at first that I think it becomes a huge turn off to new players to the point that it’s unfun to play and they won’t even bother looking anything up because they are done with the game at that point...Some classes are definitely worse off than others for this whole experience.

Just lvling your toon to 80 will award you with exotics via story and lvling up rewards as well as a whole range of crafting skills at their disposal and coin to buy other equipment if you seek to gear up enough to survive and make a difference.. I mean exotics are cheap as chips these days compared to when it first landed. There are even karma exotics available or wvw reward tracks.. any player these days should be able to gear to exotics fairly easy/cheaply compared to the good ole days .. do story

Yes true but keep in mind new players...they may not even do the story let alone have any idea where to even start when it comes to gearing up. There’s so many ways to do things that it’s quite daunting...

If you are a player of another mmo you may naturally assume lots of ways to get gear may be inefficient or outdated and thus skip to the expansion.

This is not other MMO's this is GW2.. other MMO's do their thing and it might not be the same or anywhere close.As for new players not running story etc.. then that is purely down to them. There is a learning curve and if new players choose to bypass that cos they wanna get to endgame in a day then don't expect sympathy when coming to the forums crying for nerfs to this that and the other.. that is no way to approach the game or any game imo.ANET already revamped core Tyria in the name of New Player Experience, their are game hints, there is a wiki and there are other sites like Metabattle if you cant be bothered to work out your own builds... there is simply no excuse for new players to get to lvl 80 with no clue on how to push on with end game content, expansion content, toon builds etc.. join guilds, get friends and work together. If you wanna solo it then your gunna need to get better as you play but still expect to find it a little harder with new high level content.

[zaekeon.5128]

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@zaekeon.5128 said:

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:

@zaekeon.5128 said:I think OP has a valid point. Any new player coming in is going to have greens, yellows or maybe exotic when they hit 80 and want to start HoT. The difficulty, confusing map design (keep in mind they will have no masteries), loads of mobs, etc are a little much to throw all at once considering where core Tyria leaves off. Someone can very easily go 1-80 and still be missing tons of insights into game mechanics, builds etc.

The jungle in general is just so frustrating at first that I think it becomes a huge turn off to new players to the point that it’s unfun to play and they won’t even bother looking anything up because they are done with the game at that point...Some classes are definitely worse off than others for this whole experience.

Just lvling your toon to 80 will award you with exotics via story and lvling up rewards as well as a whole range of crafting skills at their disposal and coin to buy other equipment if you seek to gear up enough to survive and make a difference.. I mean exotics are cheap as chips these days compared to when it first landed. There are even karma exotics available or wvw reward tracks.. any player these days should be able to gear to exotics fairly easy/cheaply compared to the good ole days .. do story

Yes true but keep in mind new players...they may not even do the story let alone have any idea where to even start when it comes to gearing up. There’s so many ways to do things that it’s quite daunting...

If you are a player of another mmo you may naturally assume lots of ways to get gear may be inefficient or outdated and thus skip to the expansion.

This is not other MMO's this is GW2.. other MMO's do their thing and it might not be the same or anywhere close.As for new players not running story etc.. then that is purely down to them. There is a learning curve and if new players choose to bypass that cos they wanna get to endgame in a day then don't expect sympathy when coming to the forums crying for nerfs to this that and the other.. that is no way to approach the game or any game imo.

I don’t think we need to assume people are crying to nerfs. There can be constructive criticism on the game. If you look at twitch there’s a reason why hardly anyone streams GW2 and that’s because so fewer people play it and there are reasons for it. Many have played for a while and quit because of many reasons stated here. There’s certainly a way that the issues here could be addressed while still keeping the gameplay fun and engaging.