Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Level of Difficulty for Story Instances


Recommended Posts

@juhani.5361 said:

@"Rasta.2371" said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

I guess it depends on the type of challenge. I've never gotten very far in GW1 because the camera gives me the queasies. Challenges that involve using your brain would be a lot of fun, but anything involving timers or reflexes isn't for me. Or mechanics that fit the encounter. My favorite boss battles have been Darth Sion and Darth Nihlus in KOTOR 2 because they require using intelligence, logic, and the clues you've gathered throughout the game to optimize the encounter. Or the boss battles in Secret World Legends' The Darkness War, or "fighting" Big L in the Nightmare in the Dream Palace mission. Heck, most of the boss battles in SWL feature some kind of story logic. Encounters designed to bring a real mood, tell a story with consistency, etc. I'd love it if Anet could bring some of that sort of encounter design into the story.

GW1 Camera took me at least 2 years to fully accustom too. Funny that you mention KOTOR because i cleared KOTOR1, i have KOTOR2 still in it's wrapping just didn't have the time lol, probably blasphemy that i haven't started it yet !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 158
  • Created
  • Last Reply

@Rasta.2371 said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

I guess it depends on the type of challenge. I've never gotten very far in GW1 because the camera gives me the queasies. Challenges that involve using your brain would be a lot of fun, but anything involving timers or reflexes isn't for me. Or mechanics that fit the encounter. My favorite boss battles have been Darth Sion and Darth Nihlus in KOTOR 2 because they require using intelligence, logic, and the clues you've gathered throughout the game to optimize the encounter. Or the boss battles in Secret World Legends' The Darkness War, or "fighting" Big L in the Nightmare in the Dream Palace mission. Heck, most of the boss battles in SWL feature some kind of story logic. Encounters designed to bring a real mood, tell a story with consistency, etc. I'd love it if Anet could bring some of that sort of encounter design into the story.

GW1 Camera took me at least 2 years to fully accustom too. Funny that you mention KOTOR because i cleared KOTOR1, i have KOTOR2 still in it's wrapping just didn't have the time lol, probably blasphemy that i haven't started it yet !

Complete and utter blasphemy =) Actually, now's probably the best time to start. The game really shines with TSLRCM, the restored content mod. The modders have been at work on it for years now, improving it slowly with every iteration. Really, the longer you wait, the better it gets ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

@Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:Actually I do have one complaint about the difficulty of story missions, and that is: respawning in combat. When you get into an encounter you may find that you didn't bring the right tools for the job. Even if you know what you need to do, you need to get out of combat to switch. Sometimes dying helps, but often it doesn't. In the last battle of Be My Guest,
I was able to figure out what to do, but realized I didn't have enough CC
. So after I got killed by the wall of death, I was hoping I would get a chance to change builds, but no I was thrown right back into combat after respawning, so I just had to power through. I wasn't about to go through the entire mission over again just for that. Making it so you always respawn away from combat so you can swap weapons and skills would probably solve some frustrations. The personal story was pretty good about that, but not so much in later LW chapters. People like me saying "just change ur build bro" doesn't do too much good if the only way to change your build involves restarting a 30 minute mission.

Did you not notice the fact that the entire instance was littered with bones including that final room? The skill you get from picking up a bone pretty much anywhere in the game is a CC.

That aside you can simply change build while dead.

You're right. I was forgetting the bones. I remember skulls giving fear, but I completely forgot that bones give a stun too.

@juhani.5361 said:Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content.

That penalty box is only used in the last fight of the HoT story and to my knowledge it doesn't exist in any other part of the game at all.

There's also the Thaumanova Anomaly, though I think that's the only other one unless PoF has some I don't know about.

If you mean the fractal one then no. You are in a box but the other party members can ress you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@particlepinata.9865 said:In my opinion it would be a good idea if it was more balanced, like it was in gw 1 story missions for example. Not to easy, not too difficult, with an optional hard mode, with increased rewards exp etc.

Before or after Heroes? Because GW1 missions were much harder before the addition of Heroes and became a joke after it. I think the current story mission difficulty is balanced, depending on your profession, some make it ridiculously easy, while with others it's a lot harder. It's solo content so it can't be balanced around every profession having an easy (or hard) time doing it because the game's balance team doesn't take solo play into consideration at all.

There is also some huge variance with the NPCs in story instances. I some they can practically solo the whole thing for you while in others they are basically useless. Forget soloing the instance even while you are fighting they just stand around next to you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Khisanth.2948" said:There is also some huge variance with the NPCs in story instances. I some they can practically solo the whole thing for you while in others they are basically useless. Forget soloing the instance even while you are fighting they just stand around next to you.

In most recent story instances, when there are multiple NPCs, one of them is the "active" one and can revive the player, the others are just there for decoration. Sometimes they pick the appropriate NPC but there are times where their choice of active NPC is simply terrible. For example, when fighting in the Tomb of Primeval kings, the active NPC is Canach, that also has the job of placing the mines in the second fight. So if you are downed while he is moving around to place mines he won't come to revive you and you will die. This pattern is followed in many other instances, using for example Kasmeer as the active NPC while she is unsuitable as she is ranged and has casting time on her illusions. If only you could pick which NPC to be the one that can revive you.

Edit: it's a good idea to identify which NPC is the one that is responsible for reviving you and adjust your playstyle. For example, in the last instance of A Crack in the Ice, Braham is the one that revives, he is melee and will rush in to challenge mobs, if you are ranged try to stay close to him (ignore Rox) so if you are downed he can instantly try to revive you. The reason you see NPCs standing there and not helping is because they are not designed to help you, and the one that IS is probably stuck in an animation or using a skill

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Self-acknowledged bad player here: Dying to bosses is like my passive way of living in GW2, but I don't know how I would estimate the story difficulty, to be honest. I had to my own surprise only one or two fights where I literally died my way through. There are obviously always players facerolling content, e.g. on reddit the video of a gamer playing PoF and HoT's last mission nude with a white weapon, and players crying for nerfs. Way out of my league as I simply lose the overview after a while, but neat nontheless. Sometimes it may feel justified, except for the wanna-be posers with "Lolz git gud I haz noe probz with it playing nude and blindfolded with my hands tied behind my back IRL", and sometimes "unjustified". But that's another can of worms. My problem(s) are usually "self-afflicted", but I can definitely see the PITA with fights feeling like a tedious drag (with professions I'm actually not beyond terrible). Hello, main fight with Fatso Dragon in HoT Hearts and Minds. And fights I pulled through but without a 100% grasp in what happend mechanic-wise in detail.

I admit, I'm not a fan of "AoE and/or visual clutter" combined with - for my lack of skill level - hectic fights, despite liking the potential atmosphere/"feel" of the general battle. However, I'm also of the rare silent minority in that I can enjoy a story nontheless, even if the battle itself is "facerolling easy", yet I'd in no way want battles to be nerfed because of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@juhani.5361 said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

I guess it depends on the type of challenge. I've never gotten very far in GW1 because the camera gives me the queasies. Challenges that involve using your brain would be a lot of fun, but anything involving timers or reflexes isn't for me. Or mechanics that fit the encounter. My favorite boss battles have been Darth Sion and Darth Nihlus in KOTOR 2 because they require using intelligence, logic, and the clues you've gathered throughout the game to optimize the encounter. Or the boss battles in Secret World Legends' The Darkness War, or "fighting" Big L in the Nightmare in the Dream Palace mission. Heck, most of the boss battles in SWL feature some kind of story logic. Encounters designed to bring a real mood, tell a story with consistency, etc. I'd love it if Anet could bring some of that sort of encounter design into the story.

GW1 Camera took me at least 2 years to fully accustom too. Funny that you mention KOTOR because i cleared KOTOR1, i have KOTOR2 still in it's wrapping just didn't have the time lol, probably blasphemy that i haven't started it yet !

Complete and utter blasphemy =) Actually, now's probably the best time to start. The game really shines with TSLRCM, the restored content mod. The modders have been at work on it for years now, improving it slowly with every iteration. Really, the longer you wait, the better it gets ;)

My co-workers are pushing me to play Fortnite.. I think Sotor2 will have to wait if i give in. If i get into SOTOR2 should i play the modded version first or the base game straight out of the wrapping?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@juhani.5361 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:Another thing I’d like to see removed is the caging of players if they die. For example, the last story part of HoT. I was in a group and died during the last boss fight and was sent to a cage where I sat there twiddling my thumbs while the other players finished the fight.

That sux.

I understand ANet might not want us to rez rush the boss but caging for the entire fight is too much. Send the player to a cage if you must with a short penalty box sentence but let us leave the cage and get back to the fight. It’s not fun to watch others carry us while we sit there.

Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content. Guess it goes to show how far I never went in HoT ;) I should force myself through the rest one of these days.

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Eh, never mind. Just musing on why games love to rub failure in your face...

what do you mean, group content? Of cause the penalty box works for groups only in HoT final. They don't put you into the box till you relog as the solo instance owner (yet :) )

many penalties? The small temporary decrease in stats? The negligible equipment damage you repair for zero cost? Come on.

You gain from it: at least a very small discouragement of the infamous corpserush strategy.

Like I said, I never made it far in HoT. I've never done a HoT adventure. I've never entered (or wanted to enter) a raid. For all I knew this could have been something connected to some map meta I've never done.

And, yes, stat decreases are extremely punishing when you're operating at the margins of your skill level. Depleting your resources when you're having trouble is the antithesis of being helpful and actively hinders learning a boss encounter. And no kidding it's a vestige of corpse runs that I've read were par for the course in obsolete MMOs. The question is, "Why is this a standard gaming mechanic?" Followed by, "What's a player supposed to gain from it?" If you don't know the actual game design rationale for said mechanics, an "I don't know" would suffice.

the reason is quite obvious: to penalize failure and encourage success. You don't have to agree to this, but I think you are the one having a hard time understanding. It is not "bad game design" (is that the newest shtick btw to give your opinion special weight? Cause I see it used quite often recently. Everyone is a certified game designer now it appears), but game design you happen to dislike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Imo the story instances aren't hard. They are often just anoying for me. Red circle carpet spam is not a good designed level of difficulty, it's just anoying. I have no problems beating the bosses on my main classes, even with my mostly unplayed thief i manage to do them. But it's really rare to have the vibe of a good fight feeling or an wow this was close moment. I mean even the Joko fight was a joke. The PoF final battles were an aoe clutterspam fiesta. But i also can see why the design of most of the bosses can be a problem for a lot of players. Even worldboss mechaniks are easier or comes with a lot of less virtual noise. OW is too easy and on the other hand if you doing T4 fractals or raids story bosses are no challange at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"SunTzu.4513" said:Imo the story instances aren't hard. They are often just anoying for me. Red circle carpet spam is not a good designed level of difficulty, it's just anoying. I have no problems beating the bosses on my main classes, even with my mostly unplayed thief i manage to do them. But it's really rare to have the vibe of a good fight feeling or an wow this was close moment. I mean even the Joko fight was a joke. The PoF final Battles were an aoe clutterspam fiesta. But i also can see why the design of most of the bosses can be problem for a lot of players. Even Worldbossmechaniks are easier or comes with a lot of less virtual noise. OW is too easy and on the other hand if you doing T4 fractals or raids story bosses are no challange at all.

yeah, they are not hard, but I am too not a fan of the design. It is like they have an idea for some mechanic, then someone shouts "NEEDS MORE EXPLOSIONS" and they bury their design in the usual AOE spam. GW2 is the Michael Bay of boss battles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Algreg.3629 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:Another thing I’d like to see removed is the caging of players if they die. For example, the last story part of HoT. I was in a group and died during the last boss fight and was sent to a cage where I sat there twiddling my thumbs while the other players finished the fight.

That sux.

I understand ANet might not want us to rez rush the boss but caging for the entire fight is too much. Send the player to a cage if you must with a short penalty box sentence but let us leave the cage and get back to the fight. It’s not fun to watch others carry us while we sit there.

Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content. Guess it goes to show how far I never went in HoT ;) I should force myself through the rest one of these days.

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Eh, never mind. Just musing on why games love to rub failure in your face...

what do you mean, group content? Of cause the penalty box works for groups only in HoT final. They don't put you into the box till you relog as the solo instance owner (yet :) )

many penalties? The small temporary decrease in stats? The negligible equipment damage you repair for zero cost? Come on.

You gain from it: at least a very small discouragement of the infamous corpserush strategy.

Like I said, I never made it far in HoT. I've never done a HoT adventure. I've never entered (or wanted to enter) a raid. For all I knew this could have been something connected to some map meta I've never done.

And, yes, stat decreases are extremely punishing when you're operating at the margins of your skill level. Depleting your resources when you're having trouble is the antithesis of being helpful and actively hinders learning a boss encounter. And no kidding it's a vestige of corpse runs that I've read were par for the course in obsolete MMOs. The question is, "Why is this a standard gaming mechanic?" Followed by, "What's a player supposed to gain from it?" If you don't know the actual game design rationale for said mechanics, an "I don't know" would suffice.

the reason is quite obvious: to penalize failure and encourage success. You don't have to agree to this, but I think you are the one having a hard time understanding. It is not "bad game design" (is that the newest shtick btw to give your opinion special weight? Cause I see it used quite often recently. Everyone is a certified game designer now it appears), but game design you happen to dislike.

It definitely penalizes failure but how does it encourage success for those that get carried to a win by the rest of the players? If they wanted to really encourage success they’d let the player get back into the fight to show they’ve learned from their failure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only boss i freaking hate in HoT is the final battle with Mordremoth simply because you cant help out your party if you die(Outside of Challenge mode, i can understand having that in that case), i know they cant change it, but its annoying as hell and im glad they dont have fights like it in PoF.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:It definitely penalizes failure but how does it encourage success for those that get carried to a win by the rest of the players? If they wanted to really encourage success they’d let the player get back into the fight to show they’ve learned from their failure.

Knowing that you can't return to the fight is what encourages not dying in the first place, whereas allowing players back in only encourages death rushing.

For Mordremoth, the penalty box is likely entirely due to Migraine. There's really no point to it in normal mode, especially when grouping is GW2's version of an easy mode and 1 person should be able to carry the entire group. From the story's perspective however, dying to Mordremoth means your mind was destroyed. If they really wanted to punish dying, they should have used the same mechanic as the NPCs and had a champion spawn in your place, which has to be taken down and rifted to bring you back in a downed state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Healix.5819 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:It definitely penalizes failure but how does it encourage success for those that get carried to a win by the rest of the players? If they wanted to really encourage success they’d let the player get back into the fight to show they’ve learned from their failure.

Knowing that you can't return to the fight is what encourages not dying in the first place, whereas allowing players back in only encourages death rushing.

For Mordremoth, the penalty box is likely entirely due to Migraine. There's really no point to it in normal mode, especially when grouping is GW2's version of an easy mode and 1 person should be able to carry the entire group. From the story's perspective however, dying to Mordremoth means your mind was destroyed. If they really wanted to punish dying, they should have used the same mechanic as the NPCs and had a champion spawn in your place, which has to be taken down and rifted to bring you back in a downed state.

Well, I was in normal mode so I agree, there was no point in it. The story should be entertaining/educational, not punishing players who mess up for whatever reason by not allowing them to continue to do their story but making them sit and watch others do it for them. A good mechanic that teaches success would allow the person who fails while doing the normal difficulty story line to get back in to try again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1763 said:The only boss i freaking hate in HoT is the final battle with Mordremoth simply because you cant help out your party if you die(Outside of Challenge mode, i can understand having that in that case), i know they cant change it, but its annoying as hell and im glad they dont have fights like it in PoF.

Outside of challenge mode it is also ridiculously easy now with the working shield. No more getting oneshotted by a rock from behind just as you step on an updraft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Algreg.3629 said:

@Algreg.3629 said:People are absolutely convinced it would not matter trying a different build, trying different things, they are convinced there is no self-improvement possible. That really has me worried far beyond the game tbh.

That sort of thing is why I included the reference to learning how to survive in full glass. That was painful at first, but Jennur's Horde taught me that learning how to play better lets you win, and stubbornly refusing to learn lets you lose. We can
all
learn that kind of thing, but we have to be willing to do it.

how exactly do you know where other players limits are?furthermore, how do you know if they even want to go to "the limit"?
  • Anet will have some estimation
  • maybe they don't want to. And yes, for some people, the difficulty will always be too high. But as I said, for a certain percentage, things will always be too hard. If you design for them, the game will be absolutely unappealing for everyone else.

Btw, aren't you a prime example? I have never seen anything but complaints from you in this forum. Everything is too hard, everything sucks, never tried anything differently. All the time you pose as the example of the "casual player". I doubt that, most are probably better players. Honestly, why are you even here if you hate the game that much? Is it the joy of bashing it?

no , i liked the good parts of the game...you know , the parts, that the majority of players likedthis game has the best OW content in the low and mid levelsyea im so casual. that im actually raiding in another mmoyou wanna try again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Rasta.2371 said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

making the story challenging will only result in one thing: fewer player will actually play itand even fewer will enjoy itthats a brilliant business plan right there

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:Another thing I’d like to see removed is the caging of players if they die. For example, the last story part of HoT. I was in a group and died during the last boss fight and was sent to a cage where I sat there twiddling my thumbs while the other players finished the fight.

That sux.

I understand ANet might not want us to rez rush the boss but caging for the entire fight is too much. Send the player to a cage if you must with a short penalty box sentence but let us leave the cage and get back to the fight. It’s not fun to watch others carry us while we sit there.

Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content. Guess it goes to show how far I never went in HoT ;) I should force myself through the rest one of these days.

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Eh, never mind. Just musing on why games love to rub failure in your face...

what do you mean, group content? Of cause the penalty box works for groups only in HoT final. They don't put you into the box till you relog as the solo instance owner (yet :) )

many penalties? The small temporary decrease in stats? The negligible equipment damage you repair for zero cost? Come on.

You gain from it: at least a very small discouragement of the infamous corpserush strategy.

Like I said, I never made it far in HoT. I've never done a HoT adventure. I've never entered (or wanted to enter) a raid. For all I knew this could have been something connected to some map meta I've never done.

And, yes, stat decreases are extremely punishing when you're operating at the margins of your skill level. Depleting your resources when you're having trouble is the antithesis of being helpful and actively hinders learning a boss encounter. And no kidding it's a vestige of corpse runs that I've read were par for the course in obsolete MMOs. The question is, "Why is this a standard gaming mechanic?" Followed by, "What's a player supposed to gain from it?" If you don't know the actual game design rationale for said mechanics, an "I don't know" would suffice.

the reason is quite obvious: to penalize failure and encourage success. You don't have to agree to this, but I think you are the one having a hard time understanding. It is not "bad game design" (is that the newest shtick btw to give your opinion special weight? Cause I see it used quite often recently. Everyone is a certified game designer now it appears), but game design you happen to dislike.

It definitely penalizes failure but how does it encourage success for those that get carried to a win by the rest of the players? If they wanted to really encourage success they’d let the player get back into the fight to show they’ve learned from their failure.

Well, the penalty box is BS of cause :) But there is one in the whole game (I think).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@battledrone.8315 said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

making the story challenging will only result in one thing: fewer player will actually play itand even fewer will enjoy itthats a brilliant business plan right there

I doubt you have numbers. You could very well be in the absolute minority. And the game does not seem to struggle. Maybe most players enjoy the difficulty level? I don't know. And neither do you.

Also, are we talking about what makes a game good or succesfull? Is Justin Bieber a greater musician than Mozart? Is Angry Birds a great game in your estimation?

To be clear: Personally I'd rather see a game die than being brought to the level of boredom you demand and enjoy. Which is of cause not a reasonable business approach, but I don't run GW2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Algreg.3629 said:People are absolutely convinced it would not matter trying a different build, trying different things, they are convinced there is no self-improvement possible. That really has me worried far beyond the game tbh.

That sort of thing is why I included the reference to learning how to survive in full glass. That was painful at first, but Jennur's Horde taught me that learning how to play better lets you win, and stubbornly refusing to learn lets you lose. We can
all
learn that kind of thing, but we have to be willing to do it.

how exactly do you know where other players limits are?furthermore, how do you know if they even want to go to "the limit"?
  • Anet will have some estimation
  • maybe they don't want to. And yes, for some people, the difficulty will always be too high. But as I said, for a certain percentage, things will always be too hard. If you design for them, the game will be absolutely unappealing for everyone else.

Btw, aren't you a prime example? I have never seen anything but complaints from you in this forum. Everything is too hard, everything sucks, never tried anything differently. All the time you pose as the example of the "casual player". I doubt that, most are probably better players. Honestly, why are you even here if you hate the game that much? Is it the joy of bashing it?

no , i liked the good parts of the game...you know , the parts, that the majority of players likedthis game has the best OW content in the low and mid levelsyea im so casual. that im actually raiding in another mmoyou wanna try again?

why would I? I am not interested in attacking you, nor am I interested at all in what you do or not do in this game or other games or anywhere else. All I am interested in when it comes to you is in you not having your way with GW2. I am interested in this game and how I enjoy it or not. Also, depending on the game, raiding can be casual or the raids are so forgiving you can get carried through easily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Rasta.2371 said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

I guess it depends on the type of challenge. I've never gotten very far in GW1 because the camera gives me the queasies. Challenges that involve using your brain would be a lot of fun, but anything involving timers or reflexes isn't for me. Or mechanics that fit the encounter. My favorite boss battles have been Darth Sion and Darth Nihlus in KOTOR 2 because they require using intelligence, logic, and the clues you've gathered throughout the game to optimize the encounter. Or the boss battles in Secret World Legends' The Darkness War, or "fighting" Big L in the Nightmare in the Dream Palace mission. Heck, most of the boss battles in SWL feature some kind of story logic. Encounters designed to bring a real mood, tell a story with consistency, etc. I'd love it if Anet could bring some of that sort of encounter design into the story.

GW1 Camera took me at least 2 years to fully accustom too. Funny that you mention KOTOR because i cleared KOTOR1, i have KOTOR2 still in it's wrapping just didn't have the time lol, probably blasphemy that i haven't started it yet !

Complete and utter blasphemy =) Actually, now's probably the best time to start. The game really shines with TSLRCM, the restored content mod. The modders have been at work on it for years now, improving it slowly with every iteration. Really, the longer you wait, the better it gets ;)

My co-workers are pushing me to play Fortnite.. I think Sotor2 will have to wait if i give in. If i get into SOTOR2 should i play the modded version first or the base game straight out of the wrapping?

It depends on whether you're a purist or not. My inner KOTOR fanatic says, "Yes, yes! You must play without the mod first." But, honestly, I don't think you're going to miss anything besides frustration at how incomplete the game is. The mod fills in a lot of missing pieces and plot holes. If you aren't planning on replaying it until you know all of Atton's one-liners by heart, I'd go right for the mod.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Algreg.3629 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:Another thing I’d like to see removed is the caging of players if they die. For example, the last story part of HoT. I was in a group and died during the last boss fight and was sent to a cage where I sat there twiddling my thumbs while the other players finished the fight.

That sux.

I understand ANet might not want us to rez rush the boss but caging for the entire fight is too much. Send the player to a cage if you must with a short penalty box sentence but let us leave the cage and get back to the fight. It’s not fun to watch others carry us while we sit there.

Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content. Guess it goes to show how far I never went in HoT ;) I should force myself through the rest one of these days.

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Eh, never mind. Just musing on why games love to rub failure in your face...

what do you mean, group content? Of cause the penalty box works for groups only in HoT final. They don't put you into the box till you relog as the solo instance owner (yet :) )

many penalties? The small temporary decrease in stats? The negligible equipment damage you repair for zero cost? Come on.

You gain from it: at least a very small discouragement of the infamous corpserush strategy.

Like I said, I never made it far in HoT. I've never done a HoT adventure. I've never entered (or wanted to enter) a raid. For all I knew this could have been something connected to some map meta I've never done.

And, yes, stat decreases are extremely punishing when you're operating at the margins of your skill level. Depleting your resources when you're having trouble is the antithesis of being helpful and actively hinders learning a boss encounter. And no kidding it's a vestige of corpse runs that I've read were par for the course in obsolete MMOs. The question is, "Why is this a standard gaming mechanic?" Followed by, "What's a player supposed to gain from it?" If you don't know the actual game design rationale for said mechanics, an "I don't know" would suffice.

the reason is quite obvious: to penalize failure and encourage success. You don't have to agree to this, but I think you are the one having a hard time understanding. It is not "bad game design" (is that the newest shtick btw to give your opinion special weight? Cause I see it used quite often recently. Everyone is a certified game designer now it appears), but game design you happen to dislike.

Okey doke, I'm just going to quote myself here because I said I don't understand the purpose of the mechanic. Here goes:

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Behold, lack of understanding stated multiple times. It's clear, however, that you don't know the actual design rationale either. It's a mechanic used mostly in MMOs. I've seen corpse runs in one single player game: Silverfall. Come the expansion, the devs removed the mechanic altogether because it wasn't fun. I think the game released in 2007. I've seen it used effectively as an actual game mode once in an MMO: Secret World Legends. Several missions require you to be dead to complete. Even then the run is optional.

As far is "bad design?" You're putting words in my mouth. I think it's a mechanic whose time has long since passed, simply because the gaming market has changed. It used to be used to encourage people to group. The market tends more toward soloable content now for various demographic reasons, so using penalties and punishments outside of group content doesn't make sense IMHO. Yet the mechanic has become standardized, probably due to tradition.

And, no I'm not a game designer. I am, however, interested in game design theory and have read a book or two on the subject. I find it fascinating. I also appreciate when a game tries to do something different. ESO, for example, gives you a detailed recap when you die and sometimes decent tips to help you play better. That is a model that I'd love to see spread.

Raph Koster on the subject: https://www.raphkoster.com/2008/11/17/why-are-corpse-runs-bad/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@juhani.5361 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:Another thing I’d like to see removed is the caging of players if they die. For example, the last story part of HoT. I was in a group and died during the last boss fight and was sent to a cage where I sat there twiddling my thumbs while the other players finished the fight.

That sux.

I understand ANet might not want us to rez rush the boss but caging for the entire fight is too much. Send the player to a cage if you must with a short penalty box sentence but let us leave the cage and get back to the fight. It’s not fun to watch others carry us while we sit there.

Wow, talk about kicking you when you're downed! I think I've read about the penalty box before, but I thought it related to group content. Guess it goes to show how far I never went in HoT ;) I should force myself through the rest one of these days.

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties? Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you. So why is this a standard gaming mechanic? What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Eh, never mind. Just musing on why games love to rub failure in your face...

what do you mean, group content? Of cause the penalty box works for groups only in HoT final. They don't put you into the box till you relog as the solo instance owner (yet :) )

many penalties? The small temporary decrease in stats? The negligible equipment damage you repair for zero cost? Come on.

You gain from it: at least a very small discouragement of the infamous corpserush strategy.

Like I said, I never made it far in HoT. I've never done a HoT adventure. I've never entered (or wanted to enter) a raid. For all I knew this could have been something connected to some map meta I've never done.

And, yes, stat decreases are extremely punishing when you're operating at the margins of your skill level. Depleting your resources when you're having trouble is the antithesis of being helpful and actively hinders learning a boss encounter. And no kidding it's a vestige of corpse runs that I've read were par for the course in obsolete MMOs. The question is, "Why is this a standard gaming mechanic?" Followed by, "What's a player supposed to gain from it?" If you don't know the actual game design rationale for said mechanics, an "I don't know" would suffice.

the reason is quite obvious: to penalize failure and encourage success. You don't have to agree to this, but I think you are the one having a hard time understanding. It is not "bad game design" (is that the newest shtick btw to give your opinion special weight? Cause I see it used quite often recently. Everyone is a certified game designer now it appears), but game design you happen to dislike.

Okey doke, I'm just going to quote myself here because
I said
I don't understand the purpose of the mechanic. Here goes:

I really don't get why this game deals out so many penalties when you die
. Obviously, you died because something gave, because your stats weren't high enough or your skill, etc. So why make the rest of the encounter even harder with downed penalties?
Most games do something akin to this and I've never understood the design mentality behind it
. You're not going to do any better if the game penalizes you.
So why is this a standard gaming mechanic?
What exactly do you gain from it? You're not going to learn how to be more effective with your skills if you can't even muster up the same resources you had at the beginning of the encounter.

Behold, lack of understanding stated multiple times. It's clear, however, that you don't know the actual design rationale either. It's a mechanic used mostly in MMOs. I've seen corpse runs in
one
single player game: Silverfall. Come the expansion, the devs removed the mechanic altogether because it wasn't fun. I think the game released in 2007. I've seen it used effectively as an actual game mode once in an MMO: Secret World Legends. Several missions require you to be dead to complete. Even then the run is optional.

As far is "bad design?" You're putting words in my mouth. I think it's a mechanic whose time has long since passed, simply because the gaming market has changed. It used to be used to encourage people to group. The market tends more toward soloable content now for various demographic reasons, so using penalties and punishments outside of group content doesn't make sense IMHO. Yet the mechanic has become standardized, probably due to tradition.

And, no I'm not a game designer. I am, however, interested in game design theory and have read a book or two on the subject. I find it fascinating. I also appreciate when a game tries to do something different. ESO, for example, gives you a detailed recap when you die and sometimes decent tips to help you play better.
That
is a model that I'd love to see spread.

Raph Koster on the subject:

actually, I am not sure anymore what your position is... or mine for that matter :)

To summarize a few points:

  • I am not necessarily for penalties. If they are used, I think they only make sense when they lead up to a "wipe", otherwise they just keep prolonging failing attempts endlessly. GW1 did it right I think. At some point, you just had to give up.
  • Easy and accessible aren't necessarily the cornerstones of good game design. I also do not consider missions that are "unbeatable" for some as bad design. I consider games/missions that you can beat by sheer amount of time, regardless of skill or understanding, bad design. Corpse rush probably match that description.
  • Corpse rushes are silly.

also, I fell for the shtick trap myself, grr :/

edit: are we talking about the same thing? I think there is a misuse of terms, probably from myself also. Corpse runs are that thing where your "spirit" spawns somewhere and you reclaim your body/belongings? While corpse rush is respawning endlessly and hurling your "soon to be corpse" against an encounter that does not reset.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Algreg.3629 said:

@"Rasta.2371" said:

See, and that's the other part of the equation. I'd probably scream and cuss at my screen for an eternity as I threw myself at boss after boss if I
enjoyed the story
. I'd end up bruised and battered, but happy, because I love stories. Unfortunately, I don't like the story here. So it's just not worth the pain.

It would be great if the story was good AND it was challenging. If you played Guild wars 1 releases you would know what i mean, the Winds of Change arc for example was incredibly well written, and somewhat challenging.

making the story challenging will only result in one thing: fewer player will actually play itand even fewer will enjoy itthats a brilliant business plan right there

I doubt you have numbers. You could very well be in the absolute minority. And the game does not seem to struggle. Maybe most players enjoy the difficulty level? I don't know. And neither do you.

Also, are we talking about what makes a game good or succesfull? Is Justin Bieber a greater musician than Mozart? Is Angry Birds a great game in your estimation?

To be clear: Personally I'd rather see a game die than being brought to the level of boredom you demand and enjoy. Which is of cause not a reasonable business approach, but I don't run GW2.

"Difficult", "challenging", etc. are also very poor descriptions.

There is both good challenge and bad. Going from one to the other can be a small difference.

If you had a boss that just randomly instant teleports on top of you that also hits hard and a knockdown(and lets make it unblockable as well because why not?) that would be challenging but awful.If on the other hand it was a follow up to a different skill(that is doesn't have any issue of its own) or triggered by something you do then that would not be an issue.

On the flip side you can have a very easy fight but slap a few million HP on the boss and it would also be an equally awful encounter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...