Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 I think no-downstate is awesome for the functions of wvw! Or at least this is what I thought at first, before seriously considering what was happening now and what was going to happen down the road with how wvw "feels" to different demographics of players.Then I began to notice two trends in the different opinions of "I like it" or "I don't like it", while hearing players discuss this in text chats or while in discords:(Older & more experienced players) tend to LOVE the no-downstate. I think this is because they understand the mechanics of wvw and are generally zerging with a good commander or are at least roaming with a decent havoc, which makes the no-downstate shine mechanically. Let's face it, it's annoying to have to worry about downed players while trying to focus on the meat of the opposing zerg. With no downstate mechanics it does two things, (1) No longer worry about focusing any DPS on downed players (2) Downed players are going to die anyway in 99% of said given situations of zerg vs. zerg, so it's convenient for both sides if they just respawn instantly. This actually makes for faster paced combat action, which is good. If they aren't running team comp zerg builds with a commander or running small havoc, they are solo roaming with PURPOSE and actually know what they are doing. Older players are generally much stronger with combat mechanics and even with the gear on their characters than newer/casual players are. Now this next point is the detrimental difference between downstate and no downstate play. It could be viewed as imbalanced/not preferred or MORE balanced/and preferred, I don't know, you tell me. But what we have happening in a nutshell is that it is now much much much easier for a single veteran player to 1v2 or even 1v3 or even 1v4. Here is why: Before no-downstate, a single good thief or mirage let's say, would have a certain difficulty actually solo KILLING 2 or 3 people by himself. This is because even if his opponents were running pure DPS builds, when 1 opponent gets downed, his buddies can revive before he dies. In other words, even full DPS roam builds are in a certain light "supports" for each other if they can revive. This gives 2 or 3 intermediate players an advantage to be able to defend against a single strong veteran player, even if they can't kill him, they can defend a supply camp or w/e objective it is they are aiming at. But with no-downstate, a group of 2 or 3 full DPS roam builds have absolutely no support to stop each other from dying! This actually makes it VERY EASY for a veteran player to take apart groups of 2 or 3 or 4+ players within a short time frame even. All of the above is why veteran players are eating up the no-downstate. Kicking butt feels great.(Newer or more casual players) tend to have mixed feelings or are plainly unhappy with no-downstate. These are the types of players who come into wvw with exotic gear setups or worse, possibly under-leveled, and they aren't set up for optimal zerg play or even with proper roaming builds. They are playing the way they want to play, there isn't anything wrong with it, and there are a lot of them. These are the guys who don't stay on the PIN all of the time, they get downed by some high DPS ranged attacker when straying away from the commander, and they are used to people running off the enemy roamer and reviving them. These are the guys who go down first in the frontlines while running exotic gear characters with pieces that are still rare, who sometimes overextend while not paying attention, they survive from enemies dying and then rallying from it. So to cut to the chase, these guys have no 2nd chance with no downstate. They go down, they die instantly, and then they are running across the map trying to catch up the commander, again. This seems to be frustrating for the player base that falls into the demographics of intermediate/casual/new, to say the least. Then you have those groups roaming around that consist of 2 or 3 intermediate/casual/new players, who happen across a single enemy roamer who is a wvw rank 3000, who also plays at a plat 2+ level in ranked spvp. With the no-downstate system, the very experienced enemy roamer will use all of his knowledge to stay away from the group, never risking death, only bursting when it's safe and will eventually tear apart even a full party of intermediate/casual/new players, because they no longer have the "free rally support" offered with downstate play. This isn't just frustrating, this is downright discouraging for intermediate/casual/new players. At this rate, they won't even be able to take a supply camp without running the risk of being fun farmed by more experienced players who, with the no-downstate system, are finding it easy to solo small havoc groups.So what we're looking at here in terms of "is it good for zerging? is it good for roaming?" is like this:Great mechanics for zerging, honestly. It just keeps everything moving faster. I haven't heard anyone argue this.Highly questionable shift in mechanics for roaming. Veteran players will be empowered and Newer/Casuals will not find safety in numbers. Then we have to look in terms of "Is it good for veteran players? is it good for new players?"Downstate play reinforces the idea that "superior numbers win in most situations." This is comfortable for intermediate/casual/new players, and safe.No-Downstate play empowers older veteran players specifically in the aspect that they can be greatly outnumbered and still win.A few other smaller things I have noticed in general:Increase in high DPS ranged attacks, even in zerg vs. zerg. This is because a zerg can no longer quickly revive someone who is downed by some 1500 range Soulbeast or Deadeye. I've also been seeing Rifle Warriors again and otherwise strange long range DPS build structures who, hide within a zerg up on some ledge playing defensively, who are able to call targets and multi strike anything in to "literally instant death" in the fraction of a second. This has been allowing defensively placed zergs an advantage to zergs who are attempting to push an objective. I am not so sure if this is balanced or not yet. I think the increasing viability in builds/tactics beyond the traditional "push push AoE death-ball meta" is good, but this is simply the early phases of the no-downstate meta. In the long run, things that were once difficult tasks to achieve will become very easy, like PIN sniping. Will all of this be healthy for the game mode?During "downstate play" and while I am solo roaming, I can play for 3 or 4 hours in the same map and continuously run into the same players who are ready to challenge me again, over and over. They'll be in the same groups of 2 or 3, and it is difficult for me to pick apart their groups. They have chances of defending something like "the north supply" and it is a greater game of waiting for someone to mess up. It gives the intermediates/casuals/new players a fighting chance to run me off or possibly kill me. They'll play for hours doing this. Now with the "no-downstate play", I'll run across 2 or 3 players, tear apart their groups rather easily with no risk, and I may see them once or twice within 15 minutes before it seems they either go to a different map or give up and leave wvw entirely. This is highly unusual, most players who come in to camp a home borderline defense will stay in and play for hours. This leads me to question if no-downstate will be healthy for the growth/maintenance of player population in wvw.I had originally voted in one of these polls "Yes" to keeping no-downstate, but when I really sat down and began to think, it occurred to me that voting "Yes" or "No" is a lot less about how it personally feels to me and a lot more about how it feels to the community as a whole. And this isn't even to mention the idea of "how will it effect the wvw game mode in the long haul?" Honestly, I personally have mixed feelings on it at this point. Not sure if anyone else has noticed/posted about the same things that I have, but I felt it was important to point out and discuss. It is especially important for Arenanet to read.I did also wonder if the answer wasn't either "Yes" or "No" to Downstate or No-Downstate, but rather something in between. Maybe downstate could function as normal, but cleave damage to the downed player was double or maybe even tripled, for power and condi. This would make downed players easy to cleave and kill during zerg vs. zerg, nearly as easy as instant death, but also still provide groups of 2 or 3 players a chance to rally and better defend against veteran players.~ But at the end of the day, these are just my personal opinions from my personal experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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