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The Effects Of No-Downstate in WvW - Why Players Feel The Way They Do <- ARENANET READ THIS

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I think no-downstate is awesome for the functions of wvw! Or at least this is what I thought at first, before seriously considering what was happening now and what was going to happen down the road with how wvw "feels" to different demographics of players.

Then I began to notice two trends in the different opinions of "I like it" or "I don't like it", while hearing players discuss this in text chats or while in discords:

  • (Older & more experienced players) tend to LOVE the no-downstate. I think this is because they understand the mechanics of wvw and are generally zerging with a good commander or are at least roaming with a decent havoc, which makes the no-downstate shine mechanically. Let's face it, it's annoying to have to worry about downed players while trying to focus on the meat of the opposing zerg. With no downstate mechanics it does two things, (1) No longer worry about focusing any DPS on downed players (2) Downed players are going to die anyway in 99% of said given situations of zerg vs. zerg, so it's convenient for both sides if they just respawn instantly. This actually makes for faster paced combat action, which is good. If they aren't running team comp zerg builds with a commander or running small havoc, they are solo roaming with PURPOSE and actually know what they are doing. Older players are generally much stronger with combat mechanics and even with the gear on their characters than newer/casual players are. Now this next point is the detrimental difference between downstate and no downstate play. It could be viewed as imbalanced/not preferred or MORE balanced/and preferred, I don't know, you tell me. But what we have happening in a nutshell is that it is now much much much easier for a single veteran player to 1v2 or even 1v3 or even 1v4. Here is why: Before no-downstate, a single good thief or mirage let's say, would have a certain difficulty actually solo KILLING 2 or 3 people by himself. This is because even if his opponents were running pure DPS builds, when 1 opponent gets downed, his buddies can revive before he dies. In other words, even full DPS roam builds are in a certain light "supports" for each other if they can revive. This gives 2 or 3 intermediate players an advantage to be able to defend against a single strong veteran player, even if they can't kill him, they can defend a supply camp or w/e objective it is they are aiming at. But with no-downstate, a group of 2 or 3 full DPS roam builds have absolutely no support to stop each other from dying! This actually makes it VERY EASY for a veteran player to take apart groups of 2 or 3 or 4+ players within a short time frame even. All of the above is why veteran players are eating up the no-downstate. Kicking butt feels great.
  • (Newer or more casual players) tend to have mixed feelings or are plainly unhappy with no-downstate. These are the types of players who come into wvw with exotic gear setups or worse, possibly under-leveled, and they aren't set up for optimal zerg play or even with proper roaming builds. They are playing the way they want to play, there isn't anything wrong with it, and there are a lot of them. These are the guys who don't stay on the PIN all of the time, they get downed by some high DPS ranged attacker when straying away from the commander, and they are used to people running off the enemy roamer and reviving them. These are the guys who go down first in the frontlines while running exotic gear characters with pieces that are still rare, who sometimes overextend while not paying attention, they survive from enemies dying and then rallying from it. So to cut to the chase, these guys have no 2nd chance with no downstate. They go down, they die instantly, and then they are running across the map trying to catch up the commander, again. This seems to be frustrating for the player base that falls into the demographics of intermediate/casual/new, to say the least. Then you have those groups roaming around that consist of 2 or 3 intermediate/casual/new players, who happen across a single enemy roamer who is a wvw rank 3000, who also plays at a plat 2+ level in ranked spvp. With the no-downstate system, the very experienced enemy roamer will use all of his knowledge to stay away from the group, never risking death, only bursting when it's safe and will eventually tear apart even a full party of intermediate/casual/new players, because they no longer have the "free rally support" offered with downstate play. This isn't just frustrating, this is downright discouraging for intermediate/casual/new players. At this rate, they won't even be able to take a supply camp without running the risk of being fun farmed by more experienced players who, with the no-downstate system, are finding it easy to solo small havoc groups.

So what we're looking at here in terms of "is it good for zerging? is it good for roaming?" is like this:

  1. Great mechanics for zerging, honestly. It just keeps everything moving faster. I haven't heard anyone argue this.
  2. Highly questionable shift in mechanics for roaming. Veteran players will be empowered and Newer/Casuals will not find safety in numbers.

Then we have to look in terms of "Is it good for veteran players? is it good for new players?"

  1. Downstate play reinforces the idea that "superior numbers win in most situations." This is comfortable for intermediate/casual/new players, and safe.
  2. No-Downstate play empowers older veteran players specifically in the aspect that they can be greatly outnumbered and still win.

A few other smaller things I have noticed in general:

  1. Increase in high DPS ranged attacks, even in zerg vs. zerg. This is because a zerg can no longer quickly revive someone who is downed by some 1500 range Soulbeast or Deadeye. I've also been seeing Rifle Warriors again and otherwise strange long range DPS build structures who, hide within a zerg up on some ledge playing defensively, who are able to call targets and multi strike anything in to "literally instant death" in the fraction of a second. This has been allowing defensively placed zergs an advantage to zergs who are attempting to push an objective. I am not so sure if this is balanced or not yet. I think the increasing viability in builds/tactics beyond the traditional "push push AoE death-ball meta" is good, but this is simply the early phases of the no-downstate meta. In the long run, things that were once difficult tasks to achieve will become very easy, like PIN sniping. Will all of this be healthy for the game mode?
  2. During "downstate play" and while I am solo roaming, I can play for 3 or 4 hours in the same map and continuously run into the same players who are ready to challenge me again, over and over. They'll be in the same groups of 2 or 3, and it is difficult for me to pick apart their groups. They have chances of defending something like "the north supply" and it is a greater game of waiting for someone to mess up. It gives the intermediates/casuals/new players a fighting chance to run me off or possibly kill me. They'll play for hours doing this. Now with the "no-downstate play", I'll run across 2 or 3 players, tear apart their groups rather easily with no risk, and I may see them once or twice within 15 minutes before it seems they either go to a different map or give up and leave wvw entirely. This is highly unusual, most players who come in to camp a home borderline defense will stay in and play for hours. This leads me to question if no-downstate will be healthy for the growth/maintenance of player population in wvw.

I had originally voted in one of these polls "Yes" to keeping no-downstate, but when I really sat down and began to think, it occurred to me that voting "Yes" or "No" is a lot less about how it personally feels to me and a lot more about how it feels to the community as a whole. And this isn't even to mention the idea of "how will it effect the wvw game mode in the long haul?" Honestly, I personally have mixed feelings on it at this point. Not sure if anyone else has noticed/posted about the same things that I have, but I felt it was important to point out and discuss. It is especially important for Arenanet to read.

I did also wonder if the answer wasn't either "Yes" or "No" to Downstate or No-Downstate, but rather something in between. Maybe downstate could function as normal, but cleave damage to the downed player was double or maybe even tripled, for power and condi. This would make downed players easy to cleave and kill during zerg vs. zerg, nearly as easy as instant death, but also still provide groups of 2 or 3 players a chance to rally and better defend against veteran players.

~ But at the end of the day, these are just my personal opinions from my personal experience.

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Without downstate, even if I'm caught in an outnumbered fight that can't be "won" I get more enjoyment because I can still get the satisfaction of killing and receiving loot from anyone I do kill. In the past I could generate downs without getting loot in a losing situation.

With no downstate I can engage and try to generate as much loot as possible to get something from a bad situation. Even if outnumbered I can still possibly gain some rewards via failed defense + loot bags. With downstate I feel like I'm feeding loot for no personal gain.

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Thanks for a well-thought out post.

I would consider myself an experienced player (4.5k+ WXP rank, no EotM), yet I find this change more ill than boon. Let me explain:

Now zerg fights are over way too quickly and are even more about pirate ship. People are afraid to engage in melee range (for understandable reasons). The one who wins the push, now pretty much always wins the fight and the other side scatters and runs away. Previously there was at least 25 % of chance to win the zerg fight even if many of your team got downed in the 1st push. The amount of loot from zerg has also diminished because there is not enough time to tag enemies before they die (in zerg fights you just see enemy players die like flies). People say that veterans don't play WvWvW for rewards, but I disagree. Many hard core veterans are probably now saving for their 2nd or 3rd legendary armor set and these are very costly. If rewards are lessened, then these players are forced to play pve to get the materials in reasonable time.

The positive is that a good zerg now has more increased chance to win 20 vs 50. This has happened in past just 1 week before "no downstate" event multiple times, so it wasn't impossible before, just more rare. This brings another issue. GW2 is advertised and mostly played as a semi-casual game. PuGs with no commander or no Discord / Teamspeak are at huge disadvantage vs an organized guild. Getting just farmed will discourage the players to play this game mode. We would probably end up losing a lot of casual. And then the maps will be more or less empty. Don't be fooled by current map numbers, because of course "call to arms" (double WXP, 25 % reward track etc.) will bring more players.

Secondly all revival related traits, scrapper function gyro and finishers became totally useless. Several trait lines would need to be reworked as they simply cannot be left as they are. For example warrior's tactics line is probably already warrior's weakest and least popular trait line. After "no down" state it is even worse.

Thirdly the profession balance did not become better. It just became different. In open maps ranged burst and DPS is heavily favors. I am sure many rangers are now happy and so must be power mirage, daredevil/deadeye etc. But all those there were already the TOP3 roamers before this event. So once again we are buffing those who were already very good in roaming.

Fourth, but not least. Thoughness and vitality are now less important because when you get focused by several enemies, you go down fast even if you health is 2k or more less. Invulnerabiliy, stealth, evades, blocks and reflect have become even more powerful and many of them were already before the "no down" state even brokenly good. So why buff those things, which should have been toned down long time ago?

Fifth issue. Faster fights are not better if more time is spent of avoiding fights (hit and run tactics, too scared to engage 1st in blob bs blob) and traveling from spawn to where action is. One of the main reasons why Desert BL is the least played and least popular map that it takes longer time to travel. A better way to have more action is the make the maps compact and allow faster travel to get back in fights, not reduce the amount what it does take to kill. I feel that the Total Time to Kill (TTK) is already too short in this game. Not everybody wants to play a FPS. Games, like LoL, Arena of Valor, DOTA 2 etc. are also immensely popular and there the health bar usually doesn't go from full to zero in a second (which can easily happen in GW2 due excessive power creep).

I am sure that if "no down" state is made permanent, the amount of WvWvW players will drop.

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Regularly outnumbered in both small and large scale combat. But this week has been very rewarding. Trying to hold Pang with 2 or 3 while 5-10 try to take it. Downing 1 or 2 was always easy, but they just res each other. No chance at even getting a kill or loot. This week, so much more fun. Even when the group of 5 appear from stealth with the burst "surprise", watching 1 insta-die followed by a second as I do the dps dance before I'm killed. Sure I lost, but makes playing that much more rewarding.

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I'm just a single voice here, but while I agree with your post in general, I do want to express support for the "no downed state" mechanics as a casual non-WvW focused player.

While it's true I can be considered a veteran in Gw2, the majority of my time in WvW has been focused GoB and such, so I'm certainly not dedicated (after 6years I broke the rank 125 level just this past week).

In my view, the "no downed state" week has been a boon, and the reason is simple: No matter how much fun WvW is or ever will be, I totally and completely suck at WvW. I mean, critically. I don't do rotations well, I don't think fast enough to counter, and so on. It's just outside the mechanics of my eye hand coordination etc. As a result, I am pretty good at giving out loot.

Having no downed state changes things for me (and a couple others like me) in a few ways.

  1. I don't have to spend time in downed state waiting to die. Sure, it's a few seconds, but I can just waypoint and start running back to the group sooner.
  2. I actually feel somewhat more effective when I get a kill, because the target isn't instantly rezzed by the zerg the are in.
  3. In small group/roaming situations, I actually have a chance to burst down their glass cannon. Doesn't matter that I get killed next, I've done more than I used to.

The conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the downed-state is a weakness for me, but it could also be viewed as a crutch for the opponent. Either way, as a casual, I have seen a positive change in my experience in WvW because of the no-downed state. Smaller zergs overtake or defend against larger zergs now. Being a sniper LB Ranger is a thing (Ranger is my favorite class. I usually run Mesmer in WvW though).

I would like very much to see it made a permanent change, but I don't know that Arenanet will go that far. I believe they are doing this event week in order to make a determination on how much the downed-state affects gameplay, or some other factor. It could be that they are not looking to change it at all, but looking to change something that is affected by it, and they simply needed numbers on how much of an effect it has.

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It is definitely nice when roaming and you end up being outnumbered. Yesterday I had a nice 2v1 against a scourge and deadeye. I was able to kill the scourge and ended up with a stalemate against the deadeye, as he just had too much stealth and disengaged. Normally I would down the scourge and need to go for the stomp since necro downstate provides a good bit of pressure, in which case the necro downstate attack coupled with the deadeye, probably would've killed me. I was not a fan of this no downstate week, but after a few days, I am really enjoying it. Sure I have been 1 shot plenty of times, but that just gives me a reason to hop on my thief and get 20k backstabs from stealth.

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I think your assessment is mostly correct but the distinction isn't experienced vs. inexperienced players, but rather skilled vs. less skilled players. This is why literally every roamer ever loves no downstate, and why the fight guilds love it. On my server, there is a fairly large and pretty much veteran guild (many of their higher ups are > 2000 rank) that is generally regarded as unskilled. Wasn't surprised at all to find out that they dislike the no downstate thing.

Honestly I don't think we really have such a dilemma here as everyone is making it out to be... The facts are that some love no downstate, whereas some dislike it. I don't have any numbers to back this up but I'd wager that a slight majority dislike the no downstate weekend whereas a slight minority passionately like it. It would be rather disappointing if we never saw any new changes be inspired by this event, so I'd say a good compromise from all of this is to have occasional no downstate events in the future. It definitely shouldn't be a permanent thing but I'd personally be very disappointed if we never had it again.

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no downstate is best what happened to wvw since a Long time. but i also know anet will never do that permanently. so i hope anet finally will adjust the punishment when someone get downstated. so that someone can only get revived once per 5 min or something liek that. and not 4+ times in a fight.

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The apprehension to keeping no downed state around is understandable and yes I can wholeheartedly agree that it could be discouraging for newer/casual/intermediate players because of how frequently they may be killed by more veteran players. The biggest concern I see about keeping it around is that burst builds will become far more prevalent among WvW, but I would argue that they've always been there people are just a bit more aggro with them because they don't have to worry about players getting downed rather than killed. The aggressiveness scale from some players has definitely gone way up because people can't just escape off a ledge, into their allies or into a garrison/keep/tower with their downed skills, this is especially true for havoc groups and roamers.

Another one of the concerns I've seen around is some skills and traits becoming useless if they kept this around as a permanent feature. That I do agree with, however I also think that they could use this as a springboard to make some healthy and meaningful changes to the PvP you encounter in WvW. This would be primarily changing how some skills and traits function specifically for WvW. I roughly detailed it in another post but I will put it here as well in a spoiler below.

! WvW only changes! Warrior:! Make Battle Standard revive 1 or 2 players from death (probably keep it at 1), possibly increase the CD to 240 seconds (4 minutes) reduce the radius and have it so the player corpse closest to the placement is the one affected.!
! Guardian:! Signet of Courage could aalso revive 1 or 2 players within its active radius (currently 1,200 but I would suggest reducing it for this change) on top of its normal effect. Definitely increase the cooldown on this one, either up to 180 seconds (3 minutes) the same as what the Battle Standard has now, or also increase it to 240 seconds (4 minutes).!! Revenant:! Add to a trait in the Salvation line (possibly Selfless Amplification considering what it already does) that allows Ventari's Tablet to be consumed to res 1 or 2 players within a radius and this has an internal cooldown of 180 seconds (3 minutes) or 240 seconds (4 minutes).!! Ranger:! Similar change to how Battle Standard works for Warrior, change Spirit of Nature so that it would revive 1 or 2 players from death when you use its active skill. This would normally revive 5 players within a radius of 600 from their downed state. Increase its cooldown to 180 seconds (3 minutes) or 240 seconds (4 minutes).!! Engineer (Scrapper):! Allow Function Gyro to be used to revive 1 or 2 players from death, which this may require targeting their corpses considering how Function Gyro already works. Put this on a similar internal cooldown of 180 seconds (3 minutes) or 240 seconds (4 minutes).!! Elementalist (Tempest):! Add to the trait Elemental Bastion so that it allows Rebound to revive 1 or 2 players from death within a radius and give that an internal cooldown of 180 seconds (3 minutes) or 240 seconds (4 minutes).!! As a blanket suggestion for all of these changes I would suggest making it so that the skills with a radius (Battle Standard, Signet of Courage, Ventari's Tablet, Spirit of Nature, and Rebound) be given a sort of blanket 240 radius for the revive from death effect. Its still large enough to grab who you're aiming for accurately while not being too much of an area of effect, as well as making them all revive the player closest to the point of origin of the radius.

Like I said this is pretty rough but this could level the playing field if they keep this no downed state around and provide more options for people while keeping these skills useful and also making more of them useful for both zergs and smaller scale PvP. For instance, with the current meta setup for Warrior (Spellbreaker) their go-to elite skill would be Winds of Disenchantment, but if they keep no downed state around and change these skills as appropriate then they would need to choose between having a revive ready for slain allied players or bring the boon strip and protection from projectiles that WoD provides. This could also give Scrapper the ability to function as a sort of combat medic in the field with the function gyro reviving slain players while providing utility for the zerg by converting condis into boons.

Fights being faster, though, isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would say it could be more positive for WvW and even if someone is having trouble tagging enemy players in zerg vs zerg encounter then they may likely need to adapt. Getting bags is nice and all but I think the point is that you're winning the fight rather than just getting loot. That should be the after thought when we're talking about Player vs Player content. This isn't Player vs Loot. That shouldn't be the driving focus behind what someone wants out of WvW a PvP mode, its a nice addition to getting kills (or getting lots of kills) but thats as far as that should go. Though I do agree that they should look at travel times across WvW maps. I do dislike the time needed to run back to a tag from respawning at a waypoint which is honestly why I think they either need to add more methods of faster travel on the Desert BL that aren't tied to owning shrines as well as owning the keep associated with them or just add some sort of basic mount to speed up travel. No attacks, no special skills, just something that can get you from Point A to Point B, probably something you can only use from a Keep Waypoint, Garrison Waypoint, Castle Waypoint, Citadel Waypoint or Border Waypoint. Just a little platform you can step on or interact with that pops you onto a mount and then you can just go, not something you can just mount up on anywhere on the map.

On the subject of stealth, evades, blocks, reflects and invulns most setups use these, at least the ones that veteran players are running and performing well with, and yes they have been strong but thats their defining feature as defensive effects. It can be a bit much due to how Mirage is working right now, I agree, but otherwise in smaller scale fights like 5v5s they are only as strong as the player using them. You can bait these defensive effects, disengage or heal when a block or invuln is used, kite when someone stealths or bait their stealth engage and dodge it. Reflects being effective are also heavily reliant on if say a ranger doesn't know to cancel their Rapid Fire skill and instead just eat the full duration of their own attack, same goes for any P/P Thief that just spams Unload, or DE that decides to hit themselves with their own Three Round Burst. These effects being strong are almost entirely the direct result of another player not adjusting to when they are used and taking advantage of when they are on cooldown.

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I don't want this game turning into a run and gun dps shooter type of game, there are plenty of other games out there for that. It's the same as everyone wanting to turn every kitten game out there into battle royale games, there are battle royale games out there already, go play those.

I do see the appeal of this especially when fighting outnumbered against lesser skill opponents, but in roaming and small group there are classes that already have an advantage in that area with near broken specs or mechanics, and now this would just benefit them even more. If they are going to go down this road they need to do a better job of balancing classes.

I do think zerg players who are just running around to tag stuff and not really play properly, don't want to learn and get better at the game, should be penalized, and maybe something needs to be adjusted for the downstate and rally mechanics like don't speed up ressing so much someone with multiple people, or remove rally altogether. There are other factors that happen that make that ressing possible, like when a class pops off their immunity and resses someone and there ain't much you can do about it.

Those type of things should be looked at, not removing a unique game feature and yet again taking another step in pushing this game into a fast paced dps shooter(with auto aiming!).

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while the post seems to bear resemblance of a very well thought out it did strike me it is kind of misleading.

namely - as far as my experience so far goes there are no (or very little) players with "mixed feelings" about "no downstate" mostly players who love it and players who hate it. And seeing how these people support their opinions I'd rather say that zerg players are the ones who dislike it with people playing in smaller scale combats cheering onto it.

the most common complaint in our zergs during thsi week is that you can't really push throught narrow places anymore at all - as alot od DPS classes (condi ones) seems to rely in those pushes on rally mechanic (go in drop bomb, despite going down, rally on enemies dying from the bomb)

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I agree that some players are frustrated because it is faster paced and less forgiving. On the other hand I’m inclined to say 80% of the time a down means death.

So in 20% of the situations commonly encountered you will (1) down an enemy 1v2 and have a shot at finishing them off, or (2) not end up in a downstate fight where some classes have objective unchanging advantages, or (3) pick off stranglers and know where the rest of the alive enemies actually are rather than being unsure if your downed opponents will rally.

These are improvements even for casual players. Let’s face it. Few people were being carried by the downed state individually. If anything large groups were carried by being able to laugh at attempts to gank by just resing the downed.

Now everyone is dangerous.

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@"XenesisII.1540" I mean if you think that would turn it into a shooter then you haven't played many shooters have you? Rewarding PvP tends to be much more fast paced, not slow. I'd rather not fall asleep while fighting another player. If the concern is about burst builds, again they have always existed, removing the downed state didn't just make them suddenly appear again you just notice it more because other players can't just pick you back up or get you rallied. Balance can be a bit wonky, I don't disagree with that and there are classes that are definitely a problem in that department. They have overtuned a number of them quite a bit, Mesmer and Scourge being prime suspects and mostly just anything condi in general. There are ways to avoid burst, if you have fought any Plat 2+ division players then you'd know that they are the kinds of players that pretty frequently can just avoid your burst and take you down afterwards.

Removing the downed state has felt pretty good in WvW, actually dropping someone to zero health feels much more rewarding and like you're actually contributing in a fight and makes those kills much more significant in the larger fight at hand but at the same time yes, I do think they need to rework how the revive skills available for some classes work. Make them work on full dead players but reduce the number in which they revive and retool their radius of effect.

The Downed State has become less of a "unique feature" in WvW and just more of a hindrance that holds WvW back. In my nearly 6 years of playing this game I have never enjoyed WvW as much as I have with this event running and I'm a solo roamer/havoc player.

I do understand the fear but that fear would hold much more weight if there wasn't such a large disparity between what constitutes a skilled player vs a less experienced player. For instance, Scourge is so abundantly overtuned not because its necessarily OP. It is not that hard to kill, I don't have a huge issue fighting them personally, however they are so easy to play and do well with that it can melt down less experienced players with very little effort because most newer/intermediate players don't yet understand that its okay and highly advised to disengage from a fight and immediately re-engage. The same goes for Spellbreakers. Yes, their counter is strong and a nice defensive utility for the class but what has made them so potent in PvP isn't just that Full Counter exists as a skill, its that people trigger it constantly. My personal experience as a Spellbreaker and fighting other Spellbreakers is you can avoid triggering Full Counter altogether, which denies them the damage, the interrupt and their Adrenal Health stack which lessens their sustainability in a fight.

Also the tab targeting in GW2 is so much less than it is in other games, I play with the Action Camera reticle because I prefer it and I still hit skills just fine, it also just feels better to me because I've played a lot of BDO as well. There is a means within the game mechanics to nullify skills and their damage, what it requires is appropriate timing. Just spamming it is only going to hurt you when you're fighting against experienced players.

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@XenesisII.1540 said:I don't want this game turning into a run and gun dps shooter type of game, there are plenty of other games out there for that. It's the same as everyone wanting to turn every kitten game out there into battle royale games, there are battle royale games out there already, go play those.

The curious thing here is that for me, when I play my Ranger, the only thing that has changed is that when I kill someone, they're dead, not just suddenly back up and running around due to the various skills and methods of rallying people. I generally play mesmer, but I've done little to change traits for my Ranger.

I think there are a number of people who are upset because sniper builds are perhaps more effective, and need to be taken into consideration instead of just ignored.

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No downstate has a lot of implications for the game, and it's not only a matter of who love it or who hate it.Most obvious one is that entire skills, trait lines and utility are build around downstate, this mean a complete rework of them.There's one thing I could say for sure is that makes more skilled/veteran players finally be able to enjoy roaming more, especially in situation 1vs X since now you actually have the chance to kill opponents and not see them rally.Zerg fights are now shorter, that's true. Pirate Ship is now transformed in who attack first with more range and kill faster wins. This heavily disfavour melee combat, it was disfavoured before but now it's even worse. Also now mesmer, thief and ranger are more relevant in zergs, which is good too.Melee combat is now at a clear disadvantage, because why should someone risk to die in melee when the player can range kill and stay alive(or just disengage)?(Btw a range rework of ranged weapons, to make it fixed distance indipentely of angle, height and projectile should be done anyway)
I've seen a rise of oneshot ranged builds, and I'm not totally sure that's a healthy way of pvping. This brings me to the next point which is that those who more have blocks, evade, stealth or invulnerability and mobility are the only ones that will truly have someway to avoid instadeath, and this capabilities are not for all the classes. We already have classes that do far better roaming than others and no downstate will only reinforce their role, this is not necessarly a bad thing but those classes must kept in check about their damage output and active defences. Those active defences will now be more important than ever than actually defensive gear stats that just reduce dmg(toughness) or delay your death by absorbing more dmg(vitality).A positive thing is that now if you're dead you dont have to wait to respawn(which imo downed time since you already know you're dead, unless the other opponent is in downstate too or you were outnumbered, is almost wasting time)So for me no downstate has been fun, but it has a lot of negative aspects to it. It especially discourages new player/casual players that can really get frustrated by it.My final opinion is that it's shouldn't be implemented in all WWW but it's should be an option for a map(maybe edge of the mist?) so that those that enjoy it can play it without affecting those who don't. In the meanwhile you could see what works and what not and have the possibility to improve a future implementation of no downstate if judged as viable. (btw i also would like to see a test of no downstate in pvp, just to see how it could change it)

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1º step, remove downstate2º step, increase classes health3º step, reduce hard rezing limited to 3 players(players already being hard rezed by others mannually would make the hard rez skill fail)4º step give some classes an extra 1 or 2 utility themed skills with the trait line to hard rez targets(that some players would have to sacrifice their elite or utility skill for that), like the hard and slow rez (susceptible to interrupts due how long it takesto perform that action) that gw1 had :x

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@"Turk.5460" said:I think that common ground between people who like this and do not would be to set WvW to have a limit of 1 rally per "in-combat." After rallied once, the next time you down you skip downstate.

I'd agree to that compromise on the condition that all conditions are removed once one successfully revives from downstate.Getting up from downstate just to immediately go back down from existing conditions placed on you during a revive is stupid.

~ Kovu

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As a vet player i say that "no downed state" while fun, it cant be a permanet thing...the game would have to suffer many changes, some Traits/Runes/Utilities Skills are made completelly useless with this change. Another thing that i think should be changed if(we all know that Anet aint gonna do this) No downed state is here to stay is the obsene number of blocks/evades/invuls/mobility that some builds/professions have...of course the Mesmer/Warrior/Thief veteran player will feel a lot more bold with this changes, they have all the tools at their disposal if used wisely to prevent any kind of punishment from players.While it feels great to be able to kill those annoying thiefs gank groups with more ease, at the same time i see the bigger picture here, downstate is core mechanic of the game, to many things interact with it, i have no idea how people even can propose to this being a permanent thing.

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As a veteran player, who never spend much time in WvW i actually like the mechanic.

But there is one thing to consider with all of this and right now I have the same problem:

My PC broke down and I'm playing on an old Laptop, which means 25-30 fps max on lowest settings.

So no downstate means death before I can react. This on the other hand is not fun and I can see it driving away potential new players from certain activities. Not everyone runs a powerful machine and the beauty of GW2 also lies within it's low system requirements.

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