What happened to Commanders?

oOStaticOo.9467 · August 26, 2018

@Israel.7056 said:
@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

Chaba.5410 · August 26, 2018

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better. They aren't even interested in organizing into a new WvW guild and I feel sorry for the new players that want to get organized who get dumped into that.

oOStaticOo.9467 · August 26, 2018

@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better.

Sigh. Once again, yes I know there are long time casuals, but I'd wager that more of the casuals we see now are new players. I also know there are new people who come in that are Min/Max mind oriented as well and want to learn how to better Min/Max their build too. My point that EVERYBODY seems to be missing, except for a few, is that Commanders need to adapt to the Casual play style as well as the Min/Max play style as well. However, from what seems to be pointed out over and over again, there is a refusal to do so. They keep on insisting that everybody else adapt to their play style, yet refuses to adapt to a more casual play style. It's a "My way or the highway" attitude. I'm not saying people can't still try to run Min/Max, what I am saying is that if you want to keep playing WvW and keep it active, inclusion and adaptation is key. You want numbers to go take a keep? Well, you better start including those filthy casuals. You want numbers to overrun a blob? Guess what, casuals. Will it be the most efficient and least time consuming way? Probably not, but it can get the job done. IF you are willing to work with what you have. If not, well then you'll just see wipe after wipe after wipe and hours upon hours of futility trying to take an objective. Play with what you have, don't expect what you have to play the way you want. That almost never happens unless you are lucky enough to find enough players to think the way you do, and when it comes to WvW I highly doubt that more than a handful will think that same way. We are talking about 100's of people from different places all over the world playing together.

Chaba.5410 · August 26, 2018

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better.

Sigh. Once again, yes I know there are long time casuals, but I'd wager that more of the casuals we see now are new players. I also know there are new people who come in that are Min/Max mind oriented as well and want to learn how to better Min/Max their build too. My point that EVERYBODY seems to be missing, except for a few, is that Commanders need to adapt to the Casual play style as well as the Min/Max play style as well. However, from what seems to be pointed out over and over again, there is a refusal to do so. They keep on insisting that everybody else adapt to their play style, yet refuses to adapt to a more casual play style. It's a "My way or the highway" attitude. I'm not saying people can't still try to run Min/Max, what I am saying is that if you want to keep playing WvW and keep it active, inclusion and adaptation is key. You want numbers to go take a keep? Well, you better start including those filthy casuals. You want numbers to overrun a blob? Guess what, casuals. Will it be the most efficient and least time consuming way? Probably not, but it can get the job done. IF you are willing to work with what you have. If not, well then you'll just see wipe after wipe after wipe and hours upon hours of futility trying to take an objective. Play with what you have, don't expect what you have to play the way you want. That almost never happens unless you are lucky enough to find enough players to think the way you do, and when it comes to WvW I highly doubt that more than a handful will think that same way. We are talking about 100's of people from different places all over the world playing together.

And I'd wager that a lot of the casuals are not new players. Your argument implies that the majority of players you see on other servers are low WxP ranks and yet I don't see that too often. Stop making stuff up.

Sovereign.1093 · August 26, 2018

commanders playing slither.io hehe.

oOStaticOo.9467 · August 26, 2018

@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better.

Sigh. Once again, yes I know there are long time casuals, but I'd wager that more of the casuals we see now are new players. I also know there are new people who come in that are Min/Max mind oriented as well and want to learn how to better Min/Max their build too. My point that EVERYBODY seems to be missing, except for a few, is that Commanders need to adapt to the Casual play style as well as the Min/Max play style as well. However, from what seems to be pointed out over and over again, there is a refusal to do so. They keep on insisting that everybody else adapt to their play style, yet refuses to adapt to a more casual play style. It's a "My way or the highway" attitude. I'm not saying people can't still try to run Min/Max, what I am saying is that if you want to keep playing WvW and keep it active, inclusion and adaptation is key. You want numbers to go take a keep? Well, you better start including those filthy casuals. You want numbers to overrun a blob? Guess what, casuals. Will it be the most efficient and least time consuming way? Probably not, but it can get the job done. IF you are willing to work with what you have. If not, well then you'll just see wipe after wipe after wipe and hours upon hours of futility trying to take an objective. Play with what you have, don't expect what you have to play the way you want. That almost never happens unless you are lucky enough to find enough players to think the way you do, and when it comes to WvW I highly doubt that more than a handful will think that same way. We are talking about 100's of people from different places all over the world playing together.

And I'd wager that a lot of the casuals are not new players. Your argument implies that the majority of players you see on other servers are low WxP ranks and yet I don't see that too often. Stop making stuff up.

How am I making stuff up? You can look through the posts and see where people have pointed out many times that a lot of the old players have left the game and they see a lot of new players coming in that aren't even highly ranked yet. They may not be new to the game per se, but perhaps new to WvW. You are going off of what you see, I am going off of what I see. Perhaps you are making stuff up? Just because you see a 6 and I see a 9 doesn't mean I am not right as well.

Chaba.5410 · August 26, 2018

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better.

Sigh. Once again, yes I know there are long time casuals, but I'd wager that more of the casuals we see now are new players. I also know there are new people who come in that are Min/Max mind oriented as well and want to learn how to better Min/Max their build too. My point that EVERYBODY seems to be missing, except for a few, is that Commanders need to adapt to the Casual play style as well as the Min/Max play style as well. However, from what seems to be pointed out over and over again, there is a refusal to do so. They keep on insisting that everybody else adapt to their play style, yet refuses to adapt to a more casual play style. It's a "My way or the highway" attitude. I'm not saying people can't still try to run Min/Max, what I am saying is that if you want to keep playing WvW and keep it active, inclusion and adaptation is key. You want numbers to go take a keep? Well, you better start including those filthy casuals. You want numbers to overrun a blob? Guess what, casuals. Will it be the most efficient and least time consuming way? Probably not, but it can get the job done. IF you are willing to work with what you have. If not, well then you'll just see wipe after wipe after wipe and hours upon hours of futility trying to take an objective. Play with what you have, don't expect what you have to play the way you want. That almost never happens unless you are lucky enough to find enough players to think the way you do, and when it comes to WvW I highly doubt that more than a handful will think that same way. We are talking about 100's of people from different places all over the world playing together.

And I'd wager that a lot of the casuals are not new players. Your argument implies that the majority of players you see on other servers are low WxP ranks and yet I don't see that too often. Stop making stuff up.

How am I making stuff up? You can look through the posts and see where people have pointed out many times that a lot of the old players have left the game and they see a lot of new players coming in that aren't even highly ranked yet. They may not be new to the game per se, but perhaps new to WvW. You are going off of what you see, I am going off of what I see. Perhaps you are making stuff up? Just because you see a 6 and I see a 9 doesn't mean I am not right as well.

So what you are saying is that the majority of players you see on other servers are low rank because the majority of casuals are new players and they are in the majority compared to players who are organized and want to improve? Yes, stop making stuff up.

Sovereign.1093 · August 26, 2018

from a commander's who plays everyday for atleast 4 hours, it is simply this, guys.

leading is stressful. and ppl not following adds to that stress. it is bound to take a toll eventually

hence they will eventually rest on play less. or do something else.

now include irl stuff, we age, we get legendary status in real life and gain more responsibilities, so less time for raiding.

how do we upkeep this then?

support coms who lead. especially new coms. because someday that paper guy will eventually be the guy who leads to victory. in the least karma train.

thats just how it goes.

Garrus.7403 · August 26, 2018

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

This way of thinking is why so many good commanders have either quit or run closed. This profound sense of entitlement is infuriating. No one is entitled to be included in anything. Everyone has to earn their spot in the group. If they cannot be bothered with that then they deserve to be excluded until they fix up or they can make their own squad.

And I'd say that your way of thinking is why WvW is slowly dying. As the game gets older and progresses, people come and go. The old timers leave because they are bored and seeking something new and different. New people, a.k.a. Casuals, come in and want to play the game and just because they don't play like the old timers and have a different way of playing they get harassed and made fun of which causes them to leave or seek out a different game as well. Now you are stuck with an old mentality of how a game should be played instead of trying to adapt and keep the game going. As I have repeatedly said, there are a lot of people that do not care to Min/Max. They just want to play a game and have fun doing it. I'm sorry. I really am. I understand that to some Min/Maxing is fun and that's how they enjoy playing the game, but to what seems to be the majority now according to what I have been reading others do not see that as fun. Instead it is tedious and boring to them. There is no challenge when you max out your ability to achieve something with the most minimal risk in return. When all you have to do is show up and push the same buttons in the same order and everything just melts in your path, that's not exciting to some. When people continue to do something over and over again and never deviate, they get bored of doing that repetitive thing and start looking for something that is more challenging in return. Why is this so hard to understand? It's more fun to some to try to take a non-meta build that isn't optimal and see if they can beat an opponent that is running a meta build that has been fine tuned. When they win, they get a rush and a sense of accomplishment. Do they always win? No. Obviously meta is meta for a reason, but it's still fun and exciting when they do.

What? There is no "old timers" vs. "casuals". There are many casuals who have been around a long time. There are also new players I run into all the time who inquire about how to play and want to get better.

The only part you got right is that as the game gets older there are players who leave because they are looking for new challenges. What is left is the casuals who aren't interested in getting better.

Sigh. Once again, yes I know there are long time casuals, but I'd wager that more of the casuals we see now are new players. I also know there are new people who come in that are Min/Max mind oriented as well and want to learn how to better Min/Max their build too. My point that EVERYBODY seems to be missing, except for a few, is that Commanders need to adapt to the Casual play style as well as the Min/Max play style as well. However, from what seems to be pointed out over and over again, there is a refusal to do so. They keep on insisting that everybody else adapt to their play style, yet refuses to adapt to a more casual play style. It's a "My way or the highway" attitude. I'm not saying people can't still try to run Min/Max, what I am saying is that if you want to keep playing WvW and keep it active, inclusion and adaptation is key. You want numbers to go take a keep? Well, you better start including those filthy casuals. You want numbers to overrun a blob? Guess what, casuals. Will it be the most efficient and least time consuming way? Probably not, but it can get the job done. IF you are willing to work with what you have. If not, well then you'll just see wipe after wipe after wipe and hours upon hours of futility trying to take an objective. Play with what you have, don't expect what you have to play the way you want. That almost never happens unless you are lucky enough to find enough players to think the way you do, and when it comes to WvW I highly doubt that more than a handful will think that same way. We are talking about 100's of people from different places all over the world playing together.

I dont know on which server you are playing but you dont seem to understand that on certain servers you dont need casuals without voice chat or a meta build if you have a good/famous commander tagging up. As soon as these commanders tag up you will have a lot of veteran players joining them who know how to play and are joining voice chat. These are grps who play together and try to organize as good as possible. But there will be a massive q too from randoms who just want bags but do nothing to contribute. Instead they just die like flies if you attack a keep or tower and demand that you rezz them. These casuals just demand that you fulfill their wishes but they dont understand that they are just deadweight 95% of the time. They also refuse to follow casual commanders because what a surprise no easy bags. So the best thing you can do as a commander to get rid of these pugs is to just make lethal pushes for them or go with hidden tag so only ppl on voice chat know where you are. Btw is it really such a surprise to you that ppl wanna win in a competitive game mode?

Etria.3642 · August 26, 2018

@"oOStaticOo.9467" said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.

No, actually, commanders do NOT have to be inclusionist. That is, actually, part of why this discussion even exists. They can choose to run tagless, or NOT TAG UP AT ALL. And a group of 30 in voice using correct comp is DECIDEDLY better than your group of 70 casuals. Our group of 30 will take that keep. And once in awhile, we'll come up against ANOTHER group of 30 and oh that is fun, even when we lose.

I've experienced both sides. I was once that filthy casual but oh, how I have seen the difference and it is worth worth worth the extra effort to engage in the weekly theory-crafting on most effective build(grav well or time warp? Veil or condi cleanse or portal? Staff or focus? etc). It is worth worth worth the training with watch togethers(Why the kitten were you way over there when we pushed? You're out of boons, no wonder you died, because you died, you provided no stab, no stab, your squad died, your squad died, we died.) it is eye-opening to experience the difference between a smoothly run squad and the EXACT SAME PEOPLE without voice and running whatever class they want(we tried it one day when discord was acting up).

I am literally to the point now where the difference is so ginormously vast that I WILL NOT run with a zerg and not be in voice. I am even somewhat approaching the 'only run with my guild or our allies' since as a creature of habit I am getting to know their habits and I like them. I listened in to another server's open raid. With only 7 people in their teamspeak. And I watched. And I watched as that group constantly ignored what the commander typed. They did take a few towers. A few camps. The person I was watching got their 195 participation. And it was like chalk on a blackboard to see that com being treated so poorly. When they tried for a keep, as it was a daily, they got one pushed by fewer people with arrow carts and called it a day. Worse, they then pipped down on an outnumbered map instead of Obsidian Sanctum, so if another organized group WANTED in they couldn't get in.

But to say that commanders HAVE to take casuals is not true. And is, in my opinion, definitely why there are fewer commanders. They don't want to, and they cannot be MADE to do what they don't want, just as casuals cannot be MADE to play a different class. It does work both ways.

oOStaticOo.9467 · August 26, 2018

@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Chaba.5410 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:
@Israel.7056 said:
@oOStaticOo.9467 said:Here's the thing the "Casuals" basically want. Inclusion. They don't want to Min/Max Stats to get the absolute most and best DPS out of a specific character, nor have to memorize a specific rotation of skills and powers to maximize the amount of damage and sustain they can do. However, they do want to be able to participate and help out when it comes to capturing something or fighting another enemy blob. They don't want to be harassed because they don't have a specific build that is current Meta. Yet you will see people on these forums calling for player toxicity towards "Casuals". You will see them call for harassment because they aren't playing a certain way. You will see them say things like leading "Casuals" into death by fake pushing into a blob or going to a keep and standing them under AC and player fire until they die so many times they give up and quit. When all they want to do is help capture a tower, keep, or take down an enemy blob that is in the area. They want to have fun too, yet so many will deny them this fun because they aren't trying to do it the way the others want them to do it. Any "Casual" will understand if they get a message saying, "Hey buddy, look you are welcome to join the squad but as soon as we are full and another player comes on that is more what we are looking for you'll get kicked from the squad. Although you are more than welcome to follow behind us and help out if you like." It also doesn't take much to designate one person from the back line of the squad to type map chat commands for what the squad may be doing. Push, Left, Right, Back, Bomb, Stab, CC, Ogre Watch, SM, etc. You don't necessarily have to type out a full complete paragraph as to what the blob is doing to get the message across for those that are not in the squad. I've followed many squads that have said those things in map chat and have had no problems following those commands. When I play, I do not play thinking that somebody will follow me around being my person healbot or hand feeding me boons. I play to rely on myself and not others, if others help....great! I think a lot of other people play the same way and are not looking to intentionally leech boons and heals from blobs, like some have said that they do. Does it happen? Sure, but it's not intentional. The way I see it, the more people you have trying to do an objective the better your odds are of accomplishing that. This elitist mentality of "my way or the highway" needs to stop. We all need to get along and work together to accomplish an objective.