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Conjured weapons - Ammunitions instead of ground target


ROMANG.1903

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So no one really picks up conjured weapons anymore, and when you're the one who conjures it and you want to keep the second one for later it doesn't feel right to have to go back to the location you conjured it, and there's still that stressful chance that someone might pick up your weapon before you get to use it. Now with the ammo/charge system, why not simply give conjured weapons 2 or 3 charges instead of conjuring a second weapon on use?

As a second suggestion, it would be really nice if instead of having a duration on them (and thus being interrupted mid combo or skill chain when the weapon drops off), we could keep them for as long as we want but the cooldown would start when we un-equip it rather than when we first conjure it. A bit like a very long cooldown attunement.

If needed for balance's sake, keep a limitted duration on Fire Greatsword.

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Not only you have to go back, but also pay attention to time left if you wanna use the most of it. And sometime, because of this precise timing, you miss the opportunity to grab the 2nd one that is simply lost for everybody.

But it won't change that much, it was designed for team play. And I do pick up FGS when I see one because I love it. It might not be the best elite, it's the most fun to me.

There are already many threads around them.

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@Aigleborgne.2981 said:Not only you have to go back, but also pay attention to time left if you wanna use the most of it. And sometime, because of this precise timing, you miss the opportunity to grab the 2nd one that is simply lost for everybody.

But it won't change that much, it was designed for team play. And I do pick up FGS when I see one because I love it. It might not be the best elite, it's the most fun to me.

There are already many threads around them.As I said, no one really picks regular weapons anymore... So the teamplay side of things isn't exactly a success. I guess people simply prefer to keep going with their own rotation, and I would do the same.Though I understand that some people like this mechanic for the Fire Greatsword specificly, that's why I hinted that we can make a separate treatment for the ultimate (But it would still be really amazing if we could use it as an attunnement, perhaps with slight nerfs or a damage falloff mechanic to balance the unlimitted duration?).

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This and similar options were suggested a few times here.

IMO, the best option is have 2 charges and be ground target.If you target it at your feet it summons it on your hand, or else it summons on the targeted location.This way you can give it to someone without having to wield it, or you can just give it to you or recharge the one you are already using.

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@reikken.4961 said:I like raiding as much as the next guy, but there's no way I would trade being able to give other people fiery greatswords and magnetic shields for making rotations smootherI understand for the greatsword, but, the shield? Everyone can dodge and all, I don't think a 1 minute cooldown protection is going to change a lot of things.

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It has a very different skillset than what most weapons have. An AoE pull, a dazing reflect dash, a pretty long invuln, a block... even the auto chain is interesting. I just think it's fun to mess around with. And people who pick it up seem to enjoy messing around with it too. Maybe it's not part of any meta builds, but GW2 is first and foremost an MMO. A game. and a social one at that.

Also, even for damage it's fun to mess around with, since the auto chain does enormous dps if you have barrier

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@lLobo.7960 said:This and similar options were suggested a few times here.

IMO, the best option is have 2 charges and be ground target.If you target it at your feet it summons it on your hand, or else it summons on the targeted location.This way you can give it to someone without having to wield it, or you can just give it to you or recharge the one you are already using.

Best suggestion so far. Anyway, balance team is almost non existent so ...

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@lLobo.7960 said:This and similar options were suggested a few times here.

IMO, the best option is have 2 charges and be ground target.If you target it at your feet it summons it on your hand, or else it summons on the targeted location.This way you can give it to someone without having to wield it, or you can just give it to you or recharge the one you are already using.

Too prone to mistakes. I lose my cursor all the time, having to target myself with a missing cursor or Burning Retreat off a platform doesn't sound exactly fun.Sharing the conjures is very niche anyway, I'd be perfectly happy if they choose to ditch it.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Sharing the conjures is very niche anyway, I'd be perfectly happy if they choose to ditch it.

Me too ... but ... you'll loose so many dps in pve like this ... but maybe it will give the pace for anet to improve fundamental issues on ele.

What I meant : no dmg in pvp but top dps (till warrior) in raid and harder than other classes in openworld.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Why would I lose dps? Not having other people steal my conjures and not missing my pickup by half a second mean more reliable dps, not less dps.

Lol, I don't like when random people take my conjure because I have plan for the second one. Still, it is designed to be shared, so it is not technically a steal.

But I agree in the end, we loose half utility and those people picking up conjures, they might not use them very well or worst, picking them by mistake and drop it afterward.

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I like how the OP said "Stressful chance" as if that was the design purpose of the weapon. They're designed to be picked up by a second player as a weapon of opportunity, and burst whatever function the weapon provides. Before they were all gradually nerfed, it was normal in raid scenarios for a second player to pick up the weapon, unload the highest damage skill or CC on it and then drop the weapon to go back to their normal rotation.

But there were a number of internal conflicts with the design of Conjures beyond "one and done' burst damage. Because it was time based AND had limited charges AND had cool downs on its most critical skills AND couldn't be put down to recover later, it made the weapons too inflexible to use for the full duration. This is why they changed it to timer only, and tried to punish players on Icebow for just popping it for ice storms and then getting rid of it. I think at one point they were meant to have the utility level of Engineer kits, but didn't want to just clone the system. But the problem is Ele designed to be juggled, while the Conjures are essentially transform-like skills that need a high amount of commitment to utilize. This creates contention with the fact that the conjures are kind of situational by design..... so I'm not the least bit surprised it got used to burst off whatever advantage it provides (mostly damage or CCs) as fast as possible, so the player can go back to their more utility-capable weapons.

I believe one of the issues is that they weren't originally designed in a way to make tandem use advantageous. Not specific synergies, but just the skills should feel like doubling up would be a big deal (and I'm not talking about just big burst damage). This also raises the question about mixed weapon synergies, where 2 different conjures play off each other.... but it then raises the problem of limited utility slots. They could do what they did with Glyphs, and might work.... but would it make the summoning process awkward?

If we're keeping the current model, then they have to figure out how to make the skills easier to leverage with the disparity in stats a player could have. With that problem addressed they can then move on to the real problem of rewarding people for using the whole weapon kit, rather then the burst damage skills and dropping it.

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@"starlinvf.1358" said:I like how the OP said "Stressful chance" as if that was the design purpose of the weapon. They're designed to be picked up by a second player as a weapon of opportunity, and burst whatever function the weapon provides. Before they were all gradually nerfed, it was normal in raid scenarios for a second player to pick up the weapon, unload the highest damage skill or CC on it and then drop the weapon to go back to their normal rotation.

But there were a number of internal conflicts with the design of Conjures beyond "one and done' burst damage. Because it was time based AND had limited charges AND had cool downs on its most critical skills AND couldn't be put down to recover later, it made the weapons too inflexible to use for the full duration. This is why they changed it to timer only, and tried to punish players on Icebow for just popping it for ice storms and then getting rid of it. I think at one point they were meant to have the utility level of Engineer kits, but didn't want to just clone the system. But the problem is Ele designed to be juggled, while the Conjures are essentially transform-like skills that need a high amount of commitment to utilize. This creates contention with the fact that the conjures are kind of situational by design..... so I'm not the least bit surprised it got used to burst off whatever advantage it provides (mostly damage or CCs) as fast as possible, so the player can go back to their more utility-capable weapons.

I believe one of the issues is that they weren't originally designed in a way to make tandem use advantageous. Not specific synergies, but just the skills should feel like doubling up would be a big deal (and I'm not talking about just big burst damage). This also raises the question about mixed weapon synergies, where 2 different conjures play off each other.... but it then raises the problem of limited utility slots. They could do what they did with Glyphs, and might work.... but would it make the summoning process awkward?

If we're keeping the current model, then they have to figure out how to make the skills easier to leverage with the disparity in stats a player could have. With that problem addressed they can then move on to the real problem of rewarding people for using the whole weapon kit, rather then the burst damage skills and dropping it.

Can't really happen. You're replacing 20 skills with 5. The only way to make it worth using full time is to make them overpowered. And then they end up mandatory, which is bad design. Note that this does NOT give any incentive to share them either - you still want to pick up the second conjure yourself. Sharing is just a gimmick with a very limited application - two eles picking different conjures and using both for more burst.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"starlinvf.1358" said:I like how the OP said "Stressful chance" as if that was the design purpose of the weapon. They're designed to be picked up by a second player as a weapon of opportunity, and burst whatever function the weapon provides. Before they were all gradually nerfed, it was normal in raid scenarios for a second player to pick up the weapon, unload the highest damage skill or CC on it and then drop the weapon to go back to their normal rotation.

But there were a number of internal conflicts with the design of Conjures beyond "one and done' burst damage. Because it was time based AND had limited charges AND had cool downs on its most critical skills AND couldn't be put down to recover later, it made the weapons too inflexible to use for the full duration. This is why they changed it to timer only, and tried to punish players on Icebow for just popping it for ice storms and then getting rid of it. I think at one point they were meant to have the utility level of Engineer kits, but didn't want to just clone the system. But the problem is Ele designed to be juggled, while the Conjures are essentially transform-like skills that need a high amount of commitment to utilize. This creates contention with the fact that the conjures are kind of situational by design..... so I'm not the least bit surprised it got used to burst off whatever advantage it provides (mostly damage or CCs) as fast as possible, so the player can go back to their more utility-capable weapons.

I believe one of the issues is that they weren't originally designed in a way to make tandem use advantageous. Not specific synergies, but just the skills should feel like doubling up would be a big deal (and I'm not talking about just big burst damage). This also raises the question about mixed weapon synergies, where 2 different conjures play off each other.... but it then raises the problem of limited utility slots. They could do what they did with Glyphs, and might work.... but would it make the summoning process awkward?

If we're keeping the current model, then they have to figure out how to make the skills easier to leverage with the disparity in stats a player could have. With that problem addressed they can then move on to the real problem of rewarding people for using the whole weapon kit, rather then the burst damage skills and dropping it.

Can't really happen. You're replacing 20 skills with 5. The only way to make it worth using full time is to make them overpowered. And then they end up mandatory, which is bad design. Note that this does
NOT
give any incentive to share them either - you still want to pick up the second conjure yourself. Sharing is just a gimmick with a very limited application - two eles picking different conjures and using both for more burst.

I'm not following how any of this reduces 20 to 5. Secondly, I'm not advocating for a return to ammo that would call for picking up the second weapon; thats what created this problem in the first place. There needs to be a reason to stay in the weapon, and creating a pairing strategy for organized play is the best way to make it work. Either designing it around 2 of the same weapon, or adding a function that allows them to summon 2 different types via the same cast.

As an aside... the whole "mandatory" argument..... the "Meta" would be uppity about it regardless of difficulty, because its driven on theoretical benchmarks. Despite the elitist idiocy that creeps up with "meta comp", I at least give most people enough credit to recognize the difference between a team based power play and a group carry. Raids comps are more carry orientated, since they're trying to offset as much functions as possible to as few builds as possible to squeeze in extra DPS builds. WvW has more team synergy in practice, because its driven by situation rather then ideal conditions. But 2 complimenting builds, and the ability to coordinate them, can reasonably beat up to groups of 5 builds which don't play off each other.

But this idea of Synergistic Potentialities (thank you Kuda) is proven throughout multiple areas of PvE, ranging from incidental to intentional design. Build that into the design for Conjures, and you can do something none of the other classes can currently do..... temporarily change the functionality of another player. And you bet your skritt Raid meta would all over this, given how valuable a wild card for a fringe mechanic would be. Have a one slot dedicated to a job, and the ability to play the wild card as back up or a double down at a key moment.

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:I like how the OP said "Stressful chance" as if that was the design purpose of the weapon. They're designed to be picked up by a second player as a weapon of opportunity, and burst whatever function the weapon provides. Before they were all gradually nerfed, it was normal in raid scenarios for a second player to pick up the weapon, unload the highest damage skill or CC on it and then drop the weapon to go back to their normal rotation.

But there were a number of internal conflicts with the design of Conjures beyond "one and done' burst damage. Because it was time based AND had limited charges AND had cool downs on its most critical skills AND couldn't be put down to recover later, it made the weapons too inflexible to use for the full duration. This is why they changed it to timer only, and tried to punish players on Icebow for just popping it for ice storms and then getting rid of it. I think at one point they were meant to have the utility level of Engineer kits, but didn't want to just clone the system. But the problem is Ele designed to be juggled, while the Conjures are essentially transform-like skills that need a high amount of commitment to utilize. This creates contention with the fact that the conjures are kind of situational by design..... so I'm not the least bit surprised it got used to burst off whatever advantage it provides (mostly damage or CCs) as fast as possible, so the player can go back to their more utility-capable weapons.

I believe one of the issues is that they weren't originally designed in a way to make tandem use advantageous. Not specific synergies, but just the skills should feel like doubling up would be a big deal (and I'm not talking about just big burst damage). This also raises the question about mixed weapon synergies, where 2 different conjures play off each other.... but it then raises the problem of limited utility slots. They could do what they did with Glyphs, and might work.... but would it make the summoning process awkward?

If we're keeping the current model, then they have to figure out how to make the skills easier to leverage with the disparity in stats a player could have. With that problem addressed they can then move on to the real problem of rewarding people for using the whole weapon kit, rather then the burst damage skills and dropping it.

Can't really happen. You're replacing 20 skills with 5. The only way to make it worth using full time is to make them overpowered. And then they end up mandatory, which is bad design. Note that this does
NOT
give any incentive to share them either - you still want to pick up the second conjure yourself. Sharing is just a gimmick with a very limited application - two eles picking different conjures and using both for more burst.

I'm not following how any of this reduces 20 to 5. Secondly, I'm not advocating for a return to ammo that would call for picking up the second weapon; thats what created this problem in the first place. There needs to be a reason to stay in the weapon, and creating a pairing strategy for organized play is the best way to make it work. Either designing it around 2 of the same weapon, or adding a function that allows them to summon 2 different types via the same cast.

Here is how it works. Or rather, how it doesn't:Players will only stay on the weapon for its full duration if it is better to do so rather than use and drop like now. For that to happen, the overall power of the attacks you can do in these 30 seconds needs to be greater than the power of the weapon attacks you can do in this same period. Meaning you should outperform 5 Lava Fonts, 1 Meteor Shower and some other "filler" skills which still pack a punch (Plasma Blast, Pyro Blast, even Fireball). Obviously, If you can outperform the best you can do on a normal weapon, you want to stay on a conjure 24/7. So you conjure, you use it until it almost times out at which moment you pick up the second or cast the second charge assuming ammo system. By the time the second one runs out you're ready to cast it again. And you've replaced your 20 weapon skills (5 skills x 4 attunements) with the 5 skills from the conjure, which simply are too strong to pass.

This is why the conjures are the way they are. They are an excellent supplement to our already impressive array of skills. Which is exactly what an utility skill is supposed to be. But because they are (and I dare say - they are meant to be) a supplement, their usefulness is limited and the typical usage pattern will always be "conjure, burst, drop".

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:I like how the OP said "Stressful chance" as if that was the design purpose of the weapon. They're designed to be picked up by a second player as a weapon of opportunity, and burst whatever function the weapon provides. Before they were all gradually nerfed, it was normal in raid scenarios for a second player to pick up the weapon, unload the highest damage skill or CC on it and then drop the weapon to go back to their normal rotation.

But there were a number of internal conflicts with the design of Conjures beyond "one and done' burst damage. Because it was time based AND had limited charges AND had cool downs on its most critical skills AND couldn't be put down to recover later, it made the weapons too inflexible to use for the full duration. This is why they changed it to timer only, and tried to punish players on Icebow for just popping it for ice storms and then getting rid of it. I think at one point they were meant to have the utility level of Engineer kits, but didn't want to just clone the system. But the problem is Ele designed to be juggled, while the Conjures are essentially transform-like skills that need a high amount of commitment to utilize. This creates contention with the fact that the conjures are kind of situational by design..... so I'm not the least bit surprised it got used to burst off whatever advantage it provides (mostly damage or CCs) as fast as possible, so the player can go back to their more utility-capable weapons.

I believe one of the issues is that they weren't originally designed in a way to make tandem use advantageous. Not specific synergies, but just the skills should feel like doubling up would be a big deal (and I'm not talking about just big burst damage). This also raises the question about mixed weapon synergies, where 2 different conjures play off each other.... but it then raises the problem of limited utility slots. They could do what they did with Glyphs, and might work.... but would it make the summoning process awkward?

If we're keeping the current model, then they have to figure out how to make the skills easier to leverage with the disparity in stats a player could have. With that problem addressed they can then move on to the real problem of rewarding people for using the whole weapon kit, rather then the burst damage skills and dropping it.

Can't really happen. You're replacing 20 skills with 5. The only way to make it worth using full time is to make them overpowered. And then they end up mandatory, which is bad design. Note that this does
NOT
give any incentive to share them either - you still want to pick up the second conjure yourself. Sharing is just a gimmick with a very limited application - two eles picking different conjures and using both for more burst.

I'm not following how any of this reduces 20 to 5. Secondly, I'm not advocating for a return to ammo that would call for picking up the second weapon; thats what created this problem in the first place. There needs to be a reason to stay in the weapon, and creating a pairing strategy for organized play is the best way to make it work. Either designing it around 2 of the same weapon, or adding a function that allows them to summon 2 different types via the same cast.

Here is how it works. Or rather, how it doesn't:Players will only stay on the weapon for its full duration if it is better to do so rather than use and drop like now. For that to happen, the overall power of the attacks you can do in these 30 seconds needs to be greater than the power of the weapon attacks you can do in this same period. Meaning you should outperform 5 Lava Fonts, 1 Meteor Shower and some other "filler" skills which still pack a punch (Plasma Blast, Pyro Blast, even Fireball). Obviously, If you
can
outperform the best you can do on a normal weapon, you want to stay on a conjure 24/7. So you conjure, you use it until it almost times out at which moment you pick up the second or cast the second charge assuming ammo system. By the time the second one runs out you're ready to cast it again. And you've replaced your 20 weapon skills (5 skills x 4 attunements) with the 5 skills from the conjure, which simply are too strong to pass.

This is why the conjures are the way they are. They are an excellent supplement to our already impressive array of skills. Which is exactly what an utility skill is supposed to be. But because they are (and I dare say - they are meant to be) a supplement, their usefulness is limited and the typical usage pattern will always be "conjure, burst, drop".

I think I get your point. What if tuning the weapon's power via its skills cooldowns was the solution? That way, once you summon it, you have that set of powerful abilities, but once you've used them, you have to wait a time before using them again that would be too long to make the conjured weapon worth maintaining in prolonged combat. This removes, however, that feeling that you have to spam all of your abilities in order to get the most out of your conjure during the short time it lasts, and leaves the option to keep carrying the weapon if what we need is occasionnal bursts (in open world for example).In others words, shift the weapon's limitations from a set duration to longer cooldowns.

Another possibility would be to go back to a charge system, except that each weapon skill would have its unique charges. For example, the Ice Bow would have just one or two charges of Deep Freeze given how powerful that skill is, perhaps 2 or 3 charges of Ice Storm, and a higher number of charges for its less impactful abilities. The auto-attack wouldn't require any charge and you would have the possibility to keep the weapon for as long as you want. In order to fluidify the gameplay, why not make it possible to refresh the charges without having to drop the weapon by using the conjure skill's second ammo? Of course, the cooldowns of all that need to be adjusted, but I think such a mechanic has the potential to be quite fun to use and to bring interesting plays and decision making.

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I actually don't like prolonged use of conjures just because it kills the need for meaningful attunement rotations. I like them just the way it's conjure-burst-drop/expire. It's more of a utility for me, save for the FGS, in a sense that it gives reflects even if you don't have the right weapon or it gives range when you are all melee and vice versa. FGS on the other hand is more of I need a burst right now conjure. What irks me is that the dropped conjure also expires almost at the same time your on hand expires. It would be nice if the dropped conjure just expires before the skill comes off cooldown except for the FGS. It would give a bit more flexibility when you would actually need the conjure again (if you're not planning to share it) not oh shit gotta use it now or it's gone.

Oh and I don't want to lose sharing the conjures. It's what makes conjures unique and flavorful :)

Edit: regarding that reflect; can we not have the earth shield 3 dash forward? It would be more useful in uncat fractal if it didn't because of the small platforms. Thanks!

@ROMANG.1903 said:Another possibility would be to go back to a charge system, except that each weapon skill would have its unique charges. For example, the Ice Bow would have just one or two charges of Deep Freeze given how powerful that skill is, perhaps 2 or 3 charges of Ice Storm, and a higher number of charges for its less impactful abilities. The auto-attack wouldn't require any charge and you would have the possibility to keep the weapon for as long as you want. In order to fluidify the gameplay, why not make it possible to refresh the charges without having to drop the weapon by using the conjure skill's second ammo? Of course, the cooldowns of all that need to be adjusted, but I think such a mechanic has the potential to be quite fun to use and to bring interesting plays and decision making.

I dig the charge system, for real. But when I went over my head about the conjure's skills. What about the fire axe? It relies on having to use the other skills for the auto to make a double attack. Wouldn't it lose out too much if the axe used the charges?

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@"Feanor.2358" said:Here is how it works. Or rather, how it doesn't:Players will only stay on the weapon for its full duration if it is better to do so rather than use and drop like now. For that to happen, the overall power of the attacks you can do in these 30 seconds needs to be greater than the power of the weapon attacks you can do in this same period. Meaning you should outperform 5 Lava Fonts, 1 Meteor Shower and some other "filler" skills which still pack a punch (Plasma Blast, Pyro Blast, even Fireball). Obviously, If you can outperform the best you can do on a normal weapon, you want to stay on a conjure 24/7. So you conjure, you use it until it almost times out at which moment you pick up the second or cast the second charge assuming ammo system. By the time the second one runs out you're ready to cast it again. And you've replaced your 20 weapon skills (5 skills x 4 attunements) with the 5 skills from the conjure, which simply are too strong to pass.

Conjures can also work when you need an option for you weapon set.If you have staff equipped and something is reflecting projectiles, you can summon your hammer and mash it until the projectile reflection is out.If you are using scepter/focus and need a ton of mobility suddenly, you can conjure your FGS and zoom around.

The ammo system would improve this type of gameplay (even if niche to pvp/wvw or some rare ocasions in pve) without creating an issue for the current pick-burst-drop gameplay.

And for sure, other conjures like axe, frost-bow, and earth-shield could be slightly improved to become options on their own...Lava-axe burst could be a big stack of burns, to make it viable for a condi might/stack setup.

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@aceofbass.2163 said:I dig the charge system, for real. But when I went over my head about the conjure's skills. What about the fire axe? It relies on having to use the other skills for the auto to make a double attack. Wouldn't it lose out too much if the axe used the charges?

Charges would be just for the utility skill that conjure the weapon itself. Not the weapon skills.

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