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Agreed with the OP.

Everyone can mess up. I'm not gonna hang dogs on a-net for Kourna. It's what you do after that matters.

There is a certain well known "legendary" MOBA title that thrives in huge part because they get back to old content that was poorly designed, become outdated or just wasn't fun and rework it to a completely new state, often with huge success. Such care for the old while providing new at set intervals is one of the reasons for franchise's huge success.

Hope a-net takes a page from this and will add fixes and missing parts to Kourna as time goes by. Invisible walls in moon fortress are just atrocious, especially after i went to silver wastes (map that was NOT designed with mounts in mind) and got almost anywhere i wanted on my springer, including places that most likely were not designed to be visited by players at that time. Shows how much care and attention was given to that map. Now that's A-net quality.

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Isnt there some sort of AMA next week? if there is frankly they just need to fess up, no avoiding the issue - I mean I cant even get IN to the map - kicked out 3 times doing the story after waiting a couple of days for the worst of it to subside - after that I gave up.

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I love the look of the pace, and the waterways make the skimmer more useful, but I agree with the OP. Once I finished getting the beetle, I was done. If they tweak the meta or finish the maps, I'll be back, but until then, you will most likely find me elsewhere.

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@BadSanta.6527 said:

@BadSanta.6527 said:I don’t know what this guy taking about I loved joko story and him as our main antagonist in this episode , love the story , the map looks amazing in my opinion and the new mount is just supercool 10/10

Considering your review, I would not be surprised.

Just because my spelling is bad doesn’t mean i am wrong, keep the salt to your self , the developers done pretty good job at this episode

There is no right or wrong in opinions. Nothing to do with your spelling. No salt. Just an observation of where that opinion originates from.

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As stated before in multiple threads and my feedback, I can only agree with OP. I don't feel anything and don't have the envy to redo the meta-events they are just flat. I don't even want to run the final story step with another character: 2 reasons: -Can't fully explore the fortress -Hate this end for joko, he deserved better than that!Seriously, this map is a joke: whereas in sandswept we were able to explore seas (with nothing in it), here we can't explore the western and eastern mountains or gandara: was waiting for beetle hidden passages through these but nothing, so really disappointed!And the durability is awful: in 2 days; already finished the beetle collection, map completion and 3/4 tiers for FTT turrets... It just took 5 days for story because I struggled to earn the laser achievement and the very annoying one about disorienting awakeneds.

About the meta: If I where the designer, I would have concentrated myself on meta-events instead losing time on useless Lady camilia and her collection:(WARNING, since now, it's my interpretation of a possible story, where I consider that we aren't helped by primeval ghost but the Inquest, also no Olmakans because they are happy where the are on their island. Instead, legions, and more asuran krewes came with us.) -3 lanes:
West=Heavy defenses and a serious amount of Abominations, several awakened builders running to the wall to destroy it and building trebuchets.North=A ton of awakened ritualists are preparing a large spectrum spell that can contaminate the whole south of the map.South=Many awakened Inquest are reinforcing the lab and putting many FTT turrets after the coalition destroyed the door._Once builders and ritualists have been wiped out, player groups can enter in the fortress, at the south, peoples are trying to access the experiments lab and the main laser array system. Test subjects are freed and will help us whereas the north lasers got deactivated.Many regiments are coming in the northern courtyard, beastmarshal oluwa eranko leading them, in same time at the south, a quarantine protocol start, selfdestruct.South event ends. At the north: Inquest reinforcements arrive to disable forcefields preventing from entering the buildings, some ballista, phalanx and centutions golems break the gates and fences to go further within the fortress, several awakened archers, awakened Hyleks and corsairs are trying to slow us down... We finally arrive at the harbor where Joko is waiting for us with some samples of the scarab plagues, from all of his ships, he send waves of newly infected awakened.We all fight him together, like a CC centered boss, but he casts sometimes a very hurtful AOE on himself to force us to dispatch, he summon outbreaks and use a new type of attack: "wheel of doom" with 2 scarab plague walls rotating clockwise and then stop and inverting the rotation, to stop her, we have to break his CC Bar.Joko let us "kill" him but don't die "You're all wurms! Don't you know what IMMORTAL means? I'll be back soon! crackles"

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Whoever wrote Joko did a horrific job on his dialogue. The lame angle of him acting like this is all a play was beyond lame. No reason to fear or even hate Joko. He was quite literally a joke throughout this episode. Then he dies like that? LOL just wow. How boring. Thanks for wasting my time. Next time, try and actually make a villain something I feel is a threat. We ALL knew the plague was a BS writing tactic. Of course it wasn't going to be unleashed in any way that would ever matter. He wasn't even able to kill a side character. Why exactly was I ever worried about him as a threat? And also, stealing the ghost army idea from LOTR. This was just bad. Entire episode was a waste of time. I would have rather just had a short paragraph in the patch notes telling me Joko died like this instead of going through that lame story.

Also, the way the mount was handled was horrific. Did we really even need a new mount?

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And and forgot, remove all theses invisible walls it break immersion: Imagine in real life, if you want to trespass and explore, you can, here it must be the same. Don't give correct content/ missing opportunities or left something unfinished are a thing but for the sake of god, allow use to explore as we want! (btw roof of infinity coil reactor now have invisible walls that's sad.)

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@"wickedkae.4980" said:Whoever wrote Joko did a horrific job on his dialogue. The lame angle of him acting like this is all a play was beyond lame. No reason to fear or even hate Joko. He was quite literally a joke throughout this episode. Then he dies like that? LOL just wow. How boring. Thanks for wasting my time. Next time, try and actually make a villain something I feel is a threat. We ALL knew the plague was a BS writing tactic. Of course it wasn't going to be unleashed in any way that would ever matter. He wasn't even able to kill a side character. Why exactly was I ever worried about him as a threat? And also, stealing the ghost army idea from LOTR. This was just bad. Entire episode was a waste of time. I would have rather just had a short paragraph in the patch notes telling me Joko died like this instead of going through that lame story.

Also, the way the mount was handled was horrific. Did we really even need a new mount?

This is one huge "I don't know any of the story so it's all stolen"

The ghosts have a score to settle with him, which you would know if you paid attention. LOTR is great, but it doesn't mean that now every medium ever is not allowed to use ghosts because "hurr they had that idea first!" Now THAT is a lame attitude to have. And of course the threat wasn't real, because they can't make the player character lose and end the story right there

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@hugo.4705 said:And and forgot, remove all theses invisible walls it break immersion: Imagine in real life, if you want to trespass and explore, you can, here it must be the same. Don't give correct content/ missing opportunities or left something unfinished are a thing but for the sake of god, allow use to explore as we want! (btw roof of infinity coil reactor now have invisible walls that's sad.)

Believe me, right now in its current state, the invisible walls are better for immersion. The whole thing is such a mess that removing the walls now would do more harm.

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As far as the story missions go, I hated them. They're an annoying combination of tedious and frustrating. I couldn't even imagine getting the achievements. The worst part was definitely in Joko's Lair, where you had to deal with heat vents and lasers at the same time. Particularly the impassable laser wall on a 20 second timer, where you're stuck in a corner with no way to avoid the all of the damage for the vents. That part made me so frustrated that I threw my cat across the room. Of course, if you're attempting the achievements, there's several minutes of wasted time eaten up by Joko rambling and slowly spawning enemies one at a time. "Here's this super hard achievement, now excuse us while we throw 10 minutes of dialogue in the middle of every attempt."

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@Edgy McEdgelord.4790 said:

@"Cyrin.1035" said:the main story of the Elder Dragons IS the only quality writing

Based on evidence? Or simply an emotionally biased response?

Both. The Elder Dragon storylines meet the criteria for what is logically considered a properly told story: Advancement of the central and over-arcing plot and characters. Focus on connected and lasting progression for all story elements. Meaningful change that comes from the preceding events. Main characters and supportive characters changed or tested in a profound way from the events. The antagonist's defeat or success ultimately having some sort of lasting effect that makes their story purposeful and significant. These are a few of the standards of proper storytelling that have been principles since storytelling became a popular form.

The Joko filler plot meets none of those standards, and the other filler plots barely connect to the GW 2 story that has been the focus of the story missions from the beginning. Therefore, none of them can be considered quality writing in a logical sense. In a subjective sense, some will enjoy them simply because there is an audience for anything regardless of how "good" or "bad" it is judged. My opinion is that the subplots, especially those with the Mursaat, Balthazar, and Joko, have been written terribly.

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I sort of agree. The seasons are best set up for these side stories, but tying them in better to the main arc is often preferable. We have to remember though, there other threats in the World and it makes Living World more credible to have other things going on.

Slightly off tangent, but I was never a big fan of this replacing the dragons plot and i dont think it has translated well at all. I would have preferred either straight killing off campaigns, with greater consequences en route rather than after or the Dragons more of an ever present background threat. That would allow the writers freedom to concentrate on more fleshed out stories like Joko, Mursaat, white mantle, the gods etc etc and not risk having to jump around the focus like ls3.

The Dragons could have been cool, lovecraftian, eldritch forces as much of a constant struggle as any force of nature, so immense and detached we could only hope to survive.

Episode 3 for me was a disaster. Even if they felt ending Joko so soon was correct ( whch i dont personally) then it needed a big epic finale - akin to the scale of Battle for LA or even the Invasion into Orr stuff. Sadly we got a fairly bland map where we won with ease and it never felt like we needed much of an army. I blame the episodic structure restricting their creativity as much as poor writing in general.

Season 4 looks now to fall into the trap of ls3 and contain multiple main arcs. Say what you will about the PS and LS2 quality, but they were well focussed mostly.

That’s just my own opinion though. Part of the negativity just stems from the bitter disappointment of playing such a poorly written episode (dialogue aside) after such a good start in ep1/2 so im perhaps being overly critical of the rest of the game.

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:As far as the story missions go, I hated them. They're an annoying combination of tedious and frustrating. I couldn't even imagine getting the achievements. The worst part was definitely in Joko's Lair, where you had to deal with heat vents and lasers at the same time. Particularly the impassable laser wall on a 20 second timer, where you're stuck in a corner with no way to avoid the all of the damage for the vents. That part made me so frustrated that I threw my cat across the room. Of course, if you're attempting the achievements, there's several minutes of wasted time eaten up by Joko rambling and slowly spawning enemies one at a time. "Here's this super hard achievement, now excuse us while we throw 10 minutes of dialogue in the middle of every attempt."

I hope you didn't really throw your cat across the room. If that's the case you should probably just uninstall. :-P

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Agree to disagree about Joko.

First off don't compare his fun, and witty taunts to "YOU WILL NEVER DEFEAT ME" cringefest. To me Joko's taunts were icing on the cake of this episode's npc lines, along with Canah's ones. A dark "1984" themed humor (his statues) is right up my alley.

Secondly he is Interesing as a villain. He took what's otherwise a generic and overdone zombie theme and reforged it into a structured, functional and not brain dead part of society. The awakened serve him and in certain ways Elonian society. They keep their intelligence and memories, and some want to be awakened willingly. Ofc this is part of his villainy (brainwashing the masses and creating false godhood around his persona), but still degree to which he pulled this off is uncommon and interesting.

The real sad part about Joko is how a-net completely wasted the potential of him being 250 years old lich. That guy has seen stuff forgotten to time and could have answers our characters never knew of. Notice how he mocks commander for killing 2 elder dragons that destabilized the world like it was the most obvious thing to him. For us it took Taimi, lost asuran City and a loot of research to get there. Who knows what knowledge might've been shared if they didn't off Joko is such a brainless, teen movie way.

Characters like him and Lazarus were huge opportunities to shed light on most mysterious, fascinating and presumebly lost pieces of Tyrian lore (the Mursaat and the events of past 250 years). They didn't have to be main villains. It was exactly because they were inferior to dragons (and well aware) that they would make fascinating characters that might even reach out to player in hopes of overturning their fate, willing to share their lost knowledge and power, as long as player would be willing to look the other way on some of their villainy and help them beat down the big danger before they end up being a dragon snack (moment of silence for Joko)..

But no. A-net did the worst possible solution. Have one killed in the name of some old shrew that just wanted vengenace and nothing more, and the other offed by "Loveable" Aurene that currently is acting like a rabid dog (which is what protagonists themselves take not of) and in no way or form is a deep, interesting and exciting character, to balance the loss of Joko.

Even not bringing them up at all (least for now) would be better, as the mystery, speculation and hopes of revealing most enigmatic pieces of Tyrian lore would still abound. But now that aura of mystery was brutally sliced to ribbons leaving nothing but my distaste for the rock-dog deluxe most call "Aurene".

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Joko was propably the best villoan they've introduced into the game period. Im ok that they killed him off fast because we've seen what happens to villians that overstay their welcome but i wish we had at least one more episode.

Honestly id rather elder dragons to actually be treated as they are presented, forces of nature and instead have mortal or not so mortal characters trying to survive, gain the upper hand or thrive in this world as the antagonists.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:I think there’s a difference between being rush/unfinished and a completed map where they could have done more. I don’t see the map as being rushed or unfinished but there are some things that I wish they would have done more with based on my personal preferences.

Stating it as being rushed or unfinished implies you knew what the end product was intended to be.

Assuming that what we got was the intended product feels worse. It would imply a distinct lack of vision and craftsmanship and that would have me far more worried for the game than a single release that ran into some trouble the nature of which we can only guess at.

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I think I would have almost preferred this episode bring Livia back into the fold and have us fighting Joko with her. Granted that didn't go over so well with Lazarus, but it would be interesting hearing the banter between them. More so than Joko just repeatedly call Braham an idiot in a seemingly fan-service kind of way to redeem Braham's character.

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@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Agree to disagree about Joko.

First off don't compare his fun, and witty taunts to "YOU WILL NEVER DEFEAT ME" cringefest. To me Joko's taunts were icing on the cake of this episode's npc lines, along with Canah's ones. A dark "1984" themed humor (his statues) is right up my alley.

Secondly he is Interesing as a villain. He took what's otherwise a generic and overdone zombie theme and reforged it into a structured, functional and not brain dead part of society. The awakened serve him and in certain ways Elonian society. They keep their intelligence and memories, and some want to be awakened willingly. Ofc this is part of his villainy (brainwashing the masses and creating false godhood around his persona), but still degree to which he pulled this off is uncommon and interesting.

The real sad part about Joko is how a-net completely wasted the potential of him being 250 years old lich. That guy has seen stuff forgotten to time and could have answers our characters never knew of. Notice how he mocks commander for killing 2 elder dragons that destabilized the world like it was the most obvious thing to him. For us it took Taimi, lost asuran City and a loot of research to get there. Who knows what knowledge might've been shared if they didn't off Joko is such a brainless, teen movie way.

Characters like him and Lazarus were huge opportunities to shed light on most mysterious, fascinating and presumebly lost pieces of Tyrian lore (the Mursaat and the events of past 250 years). They didn't have to be main villains. It was exactly because they were inferior to dragons (and well aware) that they would make fascinating characters that might even reach out to player in hopes of overturning their fate, willing to share their lost knowledge and power, as long as player would be willing to look the other way on some of their villainy and help them beat down the big danger before they end up being a dragon snack (moment of silence for Joko)..

But no. A-net did the worst possible solution. Have one killed in the name of some old shrew that just wanted vengenace and nothing more, and the other offed by "Loveable" Aurene that currently is acting like a rabid dog (which is what protagonists themselves take not of) and in no way or form is a deep, interesting and exciting character, to balance the loss of Joko.

Even not bringing them up at all (least for now) would be better, as the mystery, speculation and hopes of revealing most enigmatic pieces of Tyrian lore would still abound. But now that aura of mystery was brutally sliced to ribbons leaving nothing but my distaste for the rock-dog deluxe most call "Aurene".

I don't get why people are acting like Aurene's actions were out of character. She would have tried to do the same thing with Balthazar if she weren't a baby. Calling her a rabbid dog because she pulls the exact same stunt and attempts to defend her champion is stretching it by a lot. The only thing that is even giving people this idea is the dialogue from Canach. If that wasn't there people would just be complaining that she's a "draconis ex machina" or whatever instead of implying that she's this loose cannon.

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@Cyrin.1035 said:

@Cyrin.1035 said:the main story of the Elder Dragons IS the only quality writing

Based on evidence? Or simply an emotionally biased response?

Both. The Elder Dragon storylines meet the criteria for what is logically considered a properly told story: Advancement of the central and over-arcing plot and characters. Focus on connected and lasting progression for all story elements. Meaningful change that comes from the preceding events. Main characters and supportive characters changed or tested in a profound way from the events. The antagonist's defeat or success ultimately having some sort of lasting effect that makes their story purposeful and significant. These are a few of the standards of proper storytelling that have been principles since storytelling became a popular form.Then again, the starting point of this story was terrible. Five/six faceless villains that lack personality, forces of nature rather. Each with minions based around a specific but similar gimmick. Risen, branded, corrupted, it's all the same except for the color palettes of their personal appearances and magical attacks, and the stock lines of intimidating dialogue they occasionally throw out as you fight them (or run past because you're bored of fighting them). Diverging from what was the expected course of having campaign after campaign against a succession of these was sorely needed because it got boring before we even moved against the second dragon (Color palette: shades of green).
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@Cyrin.1035 said:

@"Ashantara.8731" said:I couldn't disagree more.

What you call "detours" is what is keeping the game and most players' interest alive. I can't hear about the dragons this and the dragons that anymore, and if GW2 was consisting only of that subject, it would be the most boring game in the world.

Based on evidence? Or is this simply an emotionally biased response?

@"Ashantara.8731" said:A game needs a bit of diversity story-wise. It's like a pen&paper RPG where a campaign consists of several adventures: each has its own plot, with its own dramatic curve and climax, even when there is something you call a "main plot" and the group is eventually working towards a greater goal. It's what makes for good story-telling and keeps people excited.

Elona was so well done, Joko's return was so well executed. PoF and LWS4 are my favorite content so far. I hope that the devs keep up their good work and don't return to the low quality of LWS3.

The story can have as much diversity as it wants... as long as that diversity connects to the main plot. If it doesn't, it's a detour.

AFAIK we went this way with the story because of... Aurene. And she also ended it.

I kind of feel like this was Aurenes plan all along. She gave us the vision of the first city fahranur. She probably knew Joko was there and knew we would blindly follow her vision. This just led us to Joko and Aurene just finished him off so she could get more magic, gain our trust by following her Mothers and Brothers Legacy by killing evil dudes.

I think people are highly underestimating Aurenes capabilities beyond being a child dragon.

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OP, have you been here since day 1? Have you followed the story with the Elder Dragons? If you answer yes to both of those questions then you would know that the Elder Dragons are no longer the main focus of the story, at least not as you might see it...we can no longer kill anymore Elder Dragons, instead we need to find a replacement for the two already slain and we have one of those replacements already, Aurene, but she's not ready to take the place of one. Now we need to find a second replacement, and we need to find a way to bring balance back to the world, that is the direction the story is going in since PoF and we found out what Glint's legacy actually was...I'm not so sure that all of these "side" stories don't connect to the main plot, which itself has pivoted to us finding replacements for the two slain Elder Dragons that will bring balance back to the world, which will also end the cycle of consume magic/release magic, at least that is how I understood the vision of the Eternal Alchemy.

P.S. - Read some of the most famous serial fantasy books and you'll find plenty of side stories that have nothing to do with the main plot, and I'm talking books like the Shannara series, Wheel of Time, heck even the LotR books....they all have side plots that have absolutely nothing to do with the main plot, it's for diversity.

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