EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

OrbitalButt.5708 · July 5, 2018

It's me, the Toxic Gamer, and I have come to mansplain my manfeels and eat candy with my manmouth

And I'm all out of candy

Tolmos.8395 · July 5, 2018

@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

saerni.2584 · July 5, 2018

@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

Feithlinn.9284 · July 5, 2018

@NoiseRen.2403 said:
@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:
@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.
It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we
definitely
don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.
My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

Assuming this isn't satire, [here's the definition of "racism" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary](

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism

"here's the definition of "racism" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary"), which is used in the United States. Here's the copy/pasted definitions:

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
a political or social system founded on racism
racial prejudice or discrimination

Interestingly enough, this doesn't mention that you can't be racist against white people, or more importantly, "the oppressors" as defined by certain far-left social theories. @Feithlinn.9284 I'd like to see what dictionary you've been reading.

Noah Webster was a white male so doesn't count. /s

They have no idea what racism means. Really. They believe that the "oppressors" is something alien or even maybe the black people.

Huskyboy.1053 · July 5, 2018

@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

That is not the core of our disagreement. The core of our disagreement is that it is moral, appropriate, and non-sexist to focus on bad behavior by the male sex, when women are also guilty of the same behavior. I believe it is immoral, inappropriate, and sexist to single out behavior by members of a particular sex when some members of the opposite sex perform the same behaviors. Whether or not one sex performs it more frequently (so far no scientific proof has been presented that one sex does it more frequently) is of interest to me, but not even marginally relevant to whether the sexism is noteworthy. I believe in equal responsibility for and protection of men and women. If a woman is robbed by a man and he takes $100, has she lost more money than a man who was robbed of $100 by a woman?

You are now asserting that “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” is "particular" to men, while also acknowledging that women perform this same behavior. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of particular, this is to help you understand the distinction you're making using that word. Prior to this comment, you were claiming that women "are statistically more likely to experience this than men" without providing a source. So now you're going from "this behavior is more frequently performed by men" to "this behavior is particular to men." Interesting evolution of your stated views I must say. I look forward to you presenting scientific evidence in your future post.

Deihnyx.6318 · July 5, 2018

@saerni.2584 said:Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.Why can you in this specific situation? There's one woman and one man, so it can be as much mansplaining than womansplaining. Actually, the way it's phrased, one could also assume that the message was about dismissing what the consumer said because he's a guy and knows nothing.See where that goes? Especially given the history of the feed, you can feel a bias towards men (on the contrary to Deroir, who has no track history of bias against women afaik.)
@saerni.2584 said:Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.So this one is particularly interesting, and I believe is at the core of the issue our society is facing regarding this topic.You're saying that some men don't understand why something is sexist? Maybe that's right. But then a few questions:
If they don't know that what they're saying is sexist by your standards, how can you assume that their intention is to make someone feel inferior?
Instead of telling them "you don't even understand", why not explaining what you consider is sexist in the original message?As someone who was born in Europe and never had to deal with race and gender issues, I genuinely don't understand. In a society where we all want to be together in the end, wouldn't the "best" way to solve this actually explain why you feel that way, instead of condemning?

Atticus.7194 · July 5, 2018

@"hugo.4705" said:Can someone post the link to the origin of the drama? Can't argue about something I don't know :)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8w3q4n/must_be_a_thrill_to_work_with_this_dev/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8w681t/inks_also_gets_shot_down_by_jp_on_twitter_what_is/

Keep in mind those are two of the oldest, most respected (of very few) GW2 content creators.

Manasa Devi.7958 · July 5, 2018

@thruine.8510 said:
@Manasa Devi.7958 said:
@thruine.8510 said:But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous crap of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic.And it's just as sickening, self-righteous and pathetic if the mudslinging comes from the other side of the fence.

Thanks for fixing that. But this fence, care to explain? Because what I see is lots of fans (and we see that its the same for fans of games such as GW2) throw crap of various degrees then cry when they get a little push back. While the guy (I'm assuming) wasn't like a lot of what we see on the internet, he did seem to sound like he was explaining something to someone lacking such basic knowledge of writing within MMOs.This guy wasn't throwing crap and wasn't crying. He wasn't explaining anything, he was offering a different opinion.

Are people running back through his feed? Probably. There's nothing that happens these days where everyone doesn't take some side. I don't even mean to be on a side except as those that are so tired of these types of reactions. Look at all the victims she created with that comment. I mean, now its going to affect someone's game play. Now its just another example of ArenaNet's problems. Its just a long list of folks traumatized by this one series of post.This is why she should've thought twice before lashing out. Companies and their devs have no control over unreasonable "fan" behaviour. They have complete control over their own.

I mean if you really believe that the internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans, chasing them throughout social media, then I guess that's the way you see it.I don't care for this generalisation. I was talking about one instance.

For me, I guess I'm on the other side of that fence. Whatever it is these "fans" want, my guess is they are more likely to get even this little bit of contact cut off. And frankly, I'm not sure there's any value with any company engaging with fans. Not as long as respect is a one way street. This has no affect on any of us except the original poster.. And even there it doesn't look like that big of a wound.I've never seen the least bit value in social media interactions to begin with, but things being as they are, we're stuck with it.

Finally, I'm not on either side of the fence. I find this kind of behaviour regrettable regardless of who initiates it.

Huskyboy.1053 · July 5, 2018

@saerni.2584 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

Tolmos.8395 · July 5, 2018

@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

saerni.2584 · July 5, 2018

@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

That is not the core of our disagreement. The core of our disagreement is that it is moral, appropriate, and non-sexist to focus on bad behavior by the male sex, when women are also guilty of the same behavior. I believe it is immoral, inappropriate, and sexist to single out behavior by members of a particular sex when some members of the opposite sex perform the same behaviors. Whether or not one sex performs it more frequently (so far no scientific proof has been presented that one sex does it more frequently) is of interest to me, but not even marginally relevant to whether the sexism is noteworthy. I believe in equal responsibility for and protection of men and women. If a woman is robbed by a man and he takes $100, has she lost more money than a man who was robbed of $100 by a woman?

So by your logic it would be immoral to focus on starving children in Africa because there are also starving children in India.

You can focus on individual issues and not be discounting other, similar or otherwise, issues.

You are now asserting that “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” is "particular" to men, while also acknowledging that women perform this same behavior. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of particular, this is to help you understand the distinction you're making using that word. Prior to this comment, you were claiming that women "are statistically more likely to experience this than men" without providing a source. So now you're going from "this behavior is more frequently performed by men" to "this behavior is particular to men." Interesting evolution of your stated views I must say. I look forward to you presenting scientific evidence in your future post.

You also need to do better than pull out a dictionary definition. I’m not sure what point you are trying to make with that.

I did mention I think it happens more often and that I don’t have a statistical study. But I also said I don’t think it’s necessary to do a statistical analysis for the term to be valid. It doesn’t exclude other terms from existing and, again, you don’t exclude other issues by highlighting one in particular.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493 · July 5, 2018

@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I could get my sister to borrow my account and write here, and she'll say the same things I do about mansplaining: It isn't a real thing. A sufficiently defensive mind with a victim complex is capable of twisting every perceived slight into being about race/gender/sexuality without any evidence to prove it. There's a series of silly terms based on hateful caricatures that demonize the mundane because of this.

I could bring in my mother, too. She... would probably just rant about how evil the Left is, because she's old fashioned like that. But, she would also agree with my assessment.

The overall point is this: information is information. Full stop. It doesn't matter if it is written in red, or written in blue, or spoken by a man, or spoken by a woman. There is no such thing as a unique and incommunicable perspective. Math disproves this. The ultimate conclusion of identity politics is that there is no truth, no morality, no rationality, because all is relative; a philosophy that is ultimately paradoxical, contradictory, and gives license to commit every sin it rallies against. If your first thought when hearing a statement is "I wonder if this person looks the right way to say these things", then you've failed at thought. Go back and try again.

Huskyboy.1053 · July 5, 2018

@Tolmos.8395 said:
@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

Tolmos.8395 · July 5, 2018

@Dashingsteel.3410 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Dashingsteel.3410 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:
@"AliamRationem.5172" said:Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.
It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we
definitely
don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.
My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

Please keep in mind that the majority of people here are denouncing the hateful talk that you are trying to combat, so don't let being called names by someone spewing hate-talk get to you. Focus instead on how many people here are being reasonable and rational; it's actually really nice to see so many people were just disagreeing a few minutes ago standing up to the handful of folks spewing prejudice all over the forum.

thruine.8510 · July 5, 2018

@Deihnyx.6318 said:
I don't disagree... but initially, there wasn't whining about leaving the game but simply about giving feedback on a game.And yes, you cannot expect to be heard or listen to. Absolutely. I've posted countless tweets to different companies asking them stuff, I don't always get answers.But if you -do- get answers, it is expected that they at least be respectful. Giving feedback isn't creative trolling...

Yes it is if not asked for. There's a whole lot difference giving feedback when a developer starts to have a project in mind. It can be totally unwelcomed when you are putting the final touches on something before the patch tomorrow. Just look at what the guy (I'm just going to assume from now on) was talking about with the branching stories giving the game narrative more strength as each playthrough could be completely different from another. I may be wrong as its already starting to fade from memory but that was the gist of what he was explaining. I bet you've thought that would be a welcome addition. I bet everyone has. To tell a developer something that basic as if they hadn't thought of it before? How can you not see that as insulting. And if you're a women, I can guess that kind of constructive criticism is maddening.

While initially the whining may have been over feedback, the mistake made was 1) feedback is actually wanted on a personal twitter account and 2) that its a case of one size fits all. Because that guy was shut down suddenly no one will be listen to. There are lots of assumptions being made towards her. Like I've said before, I don't have much care for how this plays out for her. But this type of behavior from players is all over the internet. There's nothing to indicate any problems people have with the game have anything to do with how this lady feels towards one post from one player. Yet for some its almost end of the line.

Xenon.4537 · July 5, 2018

@Laivine.9308 said:
@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So is womansplaining. What can't you understand?

Tolmos.8395 · July 5, 2018

@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

Bullying someone into silence by using bigoted terms like "mansplaining" whenever someone states a disagreeing viewpoint is hardly something worth defending, and it's a shame that you feel the need to belittle people who stand up to such bullying by suggesting that they should seek psychiatric help. Shame on you.

When has @saerni.2584 targeted you personally with the phrase "mansplain" or "mansplaining"? If they have then I agree, you are being bullied. If not, you are not.

Saerni clearly has radically different views than I do, but has in no way prevented me from speaking. I have not been personally targeted with any insults, nor have I been labeled. If you claim that you are being silenced, you are out of touch with reality or clearly exaggerating. If you are exaggerating then I apologize, I had no idea that was exaggeration. If you are being serious, then you really do need invervention.

At no point did I ever state that Saerni was trying to silence ME; Saerni said that as a strawman tactic to try to make me look bad; one which I obviously will not reply to, and found it unfortunate that you chose to.

Instead, Saerni is defending the use of such a bigoted and hateful term to silence others. I don't find that acceptable, and that's what my statement has been about. I'm not arguing with Saerni because they are silencing me, I am arguing with Saerni because I don't believe that ANYONE should be silenced through bullying, and I believe that good people should stand up and say "Stop that" when they see it.

saerni.2584 · July 5, 2018

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @"Huskyboy.1053"
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

I could get my sister to borrow my account and write here, and she'll say the same things I do about mansplaining: It isn't a real thing. A sufficiently defensive mind with a victim complex is capable of twisting every perceived slight into being about race/gender/sexuality without any evidence to prove it. There's a series of silly terms based on hateful caricatures that demonize the mundane because of this.

I could bring in my mother, too. She... would probably just rant about how evil the Left is, because she's old fashioned like that. But, she would also agree with my assessment.

The overall point is this: information is information. Full stop. It doesn't matter if it is written in red, or written in blue, or spoken by a man, or spoken by a woman. There is no such thing as a unique and incommunicable perspective. Math disproves this. The ultimate conclusion of identity politics is that there is no truth, no morality, no rationality, because all is relative; a philosophy that is ultimately paradoxical, contradictory, and gives license to commit every sin it rallies against. If your first thought when hearing a statement is "I wonder if this person

looks the right way

to say these things", then you've failed at thought. Go back and try again.

You misunderstood me. I’m saying you can’t leap to the conclusion someone is wrong. You should ask why someone is saying something that goes against your beliefs.

That way you can debate then or even change your mind if it turns out, having thought about it, you were wrong. It happens to everyone.

It isn’t that the person making the statement looks a certain way. It’s that a statement about someone’s own lived experience is valuable. I’m saying, “someone is speaking about their own life and how they experienced it and we (collectively) should carefully consider what they have to say.

They know their own life. Asssuming I know their own life better than them would be presumptuous.

Laivine.9308 · July 5, 2018

@Xenon.4537 said:
@Laivine.9308 said:
@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So is womansplaining. What can't you understand?

Hahaha seems legit.

Ashen.2907 · July 5, 2018

@thruine.8510 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
I don't disagree... but initially, there wasn't whining about leaving the game but simply about giving feedback on a game.And yes, you cannot expect to be heard or listen to. Absolutely. I've posted countless tweets to different companies asking them stuff, I don't always get answers.But if you -do- get answers, it is expected that they at least be respectful. Giving feedback isn't creative trolling...

Yes it is if not asked for. There's a whole lot difference giving feedback when a developer starts to have a project in mind. It can be totally unwelcomed when you are putting the final touches on something before the patch tomorrow. Just look at what the guy (I'm just going to assume from now on) was talking about with the branching stories giving the game narrative more strength as each playthrough could be completely different from another. I may be wrong as its already starting to fade from memory but that was the gist of what he was explaining. I bet you've thought that would be a welcome addition. I bet everyone has. To tell a developer something that basic as if they hadn't thought of it before? How can you not see that as insulting. And if you're a women, I can guess that kind of constructive criticism is maddening.

While initially the whining may have been over feedback, the mistake made was 1) feedback is actually wanted on a personal twitter account and 2) that its a case of one size fits all. Because that guy was shut down suddenly no one will be listen to. There are lots of assumptions being made towards her. Like I've said before, I don't have much care for how this plays out for her. But this type of behavior from players is all over the internet. There's nothing to indicate any problems people have with the game have anything to do with how this lady feels towards one post from one player. Yet for some its almost end of the line.

A subject raised in a public forum is an invitation for response and feedback.

ReaverKane.7598 · July 5, 2018

@Tasida.4085 said:
@ReaverKane.7598 said:
@Tasida.4085 said:Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

It does bleed into the game.That person is designing the game, and dismissing constructive feedback, on the account she's inconvenienced by it, justifying it with a very sexist remark.Also, you can see the white knight co-worker coming to the rescue, which points to an institutionalized issue. So yes, it is of concern, if you care about the future of the game, and the quality of it's releases.

Again with sexist......If I was so thin skinned I'd complain all the time about being called Bruh, Bro, Dude etc auto when I'm not male. And most of you in these forums are guilty of doing just that in game. That's being sexist by using those words. Instead we (women) ignore and play on. I stand by what I say, what happens in social media (that doesn't directly affect game play) needs to stay there instead of brought here stirring people up. If people want to quit the game over it adios and good riddance cos they are easily replaced daily.

Yeah, easily replaced... Sure... You'll pay the charge alone, right?One thing is me calling you dude, not knowing your gender... There's nothing on your name or avatar that is really a signifier of gender, so one has to guess, usually there's more males than females involved in forums and discussions (it's changing though, which is nice), so people, especially in cultures without gender neutral pronouns, where every word is gendered even if it's an object, will usually guess male.That's one thing, and it's a sign of a healthy character that you don't take exception for that.

A different beast is the whole tweet and her reaction:First the instant she felt compelled to add "female" to the identifier "Game developer", she's already making it about gender issues. That's instantaneous.Then she goes about insulting it, which regardless of gender issues or not, is offensive, and inexcusable. An employee insulting a costumer in public is usually grounds for dismissal in most other forms of commerce. Try working in a store and calling a guy a$$hat to his face, and see if you're going out of that stunt unscathed. Especially when that person was nothing less than cordial and polite to you.

Adding insult to injury, she continues to make it about gender issues, with this gem:https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014581433937981445

It's her comments that keep making it about gender. It's not the other guy that's being but hurt, it's about an employee of a company being openly sexist, aggressive and rude towards a customer, worse, a influential customer than can sway the opinion of a lot of players.It's not really about gender, it's about the nice little window of insight to how Arena Net really thinks and feels about their costumers. And whether or not we should be paying them, and in your case, defending them. Because like it or not, they obviously don't respect you as a person or a customer.

OrbitalButt.5708 · July 5, 2018

[me, glowing and floating in the air, surrounded by strange energies with a third eye opening in my forehead]

Sorry if you feel offended. Sorry if you think you've been offended but it's really your own fault. Sorry if your brain is so addled by Super Misogyny that you think you've been offended. Not my problem don't @ me

saerni.2584 · July 5, 2018

@Tolmos.8395 said:
@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@Huskyboy.1053 said:
@saerni.2584 said:
@Tolmos.8395 said:
@saerni.2584 said:Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053
I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.
Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.