EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

[Dashingsteel.3410]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

So only women can comment intelligently on sexism...… got it!! Thank you for womansplaining this to me...…… PC culture for the win!

[saerni.2584]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

What? I am a woman and I called those commenters on Jessica's feed mansplainers, that's why she was enraged. I was not sarcastic...Maybe something got lost in translation as english is not my native tongue.

I was agreeing with you. Lots of those people are jumping on her, accusing her of being sexist, because she accused this guy of being sexist.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

No. Accusing someone of mansplaining merely for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

[Tolmos.8395]

@"miraude.2107" said:I understand holding someone to standards on social media, however I also see her frustration in having unsolicited advice, constructive or not, expressed at her on her personal account instead of posting it straight to the game or using official channels. I'm sure most of you would get frustrated and wear thing if the customers you dealt with constantly bombarded you with questions about your work on your personal twitter and facebook after working the hours that they work.This is one of the reasons that most devs in games are starting to make their personal accounts private, have two accounts or just delete them is because of things like this. Honestly this constant posting over and over again akins to a witch hunt. LOOOK, LOOK AT WHAT THIS ANET PERSON DID, EVEN THOUGH THE ADVICE WAS UNSOLICITED, IT WAS ~CONSTRUCTIVE~! SHAME SHAME! Let's ignore that anet is probably already reviewing and considering options since there was a holiday, let's just publicly execute this developer here and now, force their hand and make them fire someone they may not be able to replace at this time.

If you tag your employer all over your personal feed, make an in-depth analysis about the work you do at that company on a public feed for thousands of people to see, and then become enraged when someone replies to it... you're doing twitter wrong. That's not how social media works. It hasn't worked that way in the past, it doesn't work that way in the future.

If you want privacy, there is a button for that. If you want anonymity, don't put your name, picture and employer all over it. If you want people to not give constructive replies to a conversation about a topic that you both mutually share interest in, don't post that topic.

This reminds me of a guy I used to work with. We had a table at the company that was used to give stuff away; the "give away" table. Put something there, and it's gone within an hour; everyone used it to get rid of old stuff they didn't want. So, anyhow: one day, this guy puts a box of stuff on the table. The box was actually a donation box, where we were supposed to put stuff INTO the box... but he didn't tell anyone that. So, he put the box on the table and it gets cleared out within a couple of hours, causing him to go into a rage when he found out, demanding justice and wanting people fired for stealing from the donation box. It didn't matter that he put it on the give-away table, with no context that it was not a give away box... the fact that HE knew no one was supposed to take anything was enough.

What you're describing feels similar to that. If you make a public post, on a public forum, about a topic that many people who follow you share interest in, it seems a bit counter productive to become enraged when someone hits the "reply" button. Doubly so if you claim they hit the "reply" button because they hate you for your gender, only. And triply so when the person replying is one of the most helpful and well known members of the community related to that topic.

[OrbitalButt.5708]

This thread is now heading for shutdown land because you people can't stop arguing over the ontology of mansplaining

[saerni.2584]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

@Dashingsteel.3410

Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

[Deihnyx.6318]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining in this case is an Identity fallacy.If you turn that into a wildcard to throw out whenever convenient, it becomes irrelevant.

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Terms like "mansplaining" and "white fragility" are blatantly sexist and racist, but they rarely get called out as such because they are used against "privileged" (i.e. oppressor) groups rather than against victim groups, even though that isn't how society works anymore. It's wholly out of control and I'm rather happy to see this situation getting the negative attention it deserves.Exactly that.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

I know I've complained about the writing in this game for years. I've been playing less and less because of "reasons" and I had attributed all of that to other reasons other than what I see now. Personality bleeds into product. GW2 can both benefit and suffer for it.

[Blocki.4931]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

@"Dashingsteel.3410"

Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

What a laugh

And just for the record: I do not deny that women get questioned more often than men. Just like men get questioned while doing traditionally "female jobs". You see a female doctor and you still think about a nurse, simply because a huge majority of females in medical jobs are nurses for example. It's not sexist, it's a "problem" inside our brains that seeks out patterns and logic in any possible thing. When we see a lot of something happening we will just make that connection inside our minds automatically. Deconstructing that takes work, but 90% of the time that isn't necessary in the first place because it's a non-issue.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

@Batel.9206 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

Edit: just to clarify, I agree with Batel.

[Laivine.9308]

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

[Einlanzer.1627]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

@"Dashingsteel.3410"

Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

Yes it is. "Mansplaining" is actually a sexist term the same way "hysterical" used to be. It takes a perceived negative behavior and generalizes it to an entire sex of people (in reality, women condescend in dialogue every bit as much as men do.) When that's done against women or minorities, it's always considered sexist or racist. The only reason you don't believe it is here is because men aren't seen as victims in modern society (even though there are many ways in which men are disadvantaged relative to women, this being one).

It's all about indoctrination.

[Tasida.4085]

Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

Hmmm.... I don't see any men telling me I don't know what is best for me or my gender. Almost like feminists are the ones suppressing differing female views, and not those terrible misogynists or something..... Food for thought.

[Blocki.4931]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

No, that is the assumption that every person we talk to is on an equal level to us and thus we assume they are just like us - whatever gender we may have.

On the internet its a gamble if somebody is male or female, assuming one is male or female is literally just so that we can address them in a direct way.

[Huskyboy.1053]

@Laivine.9308 said:

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Batel.9206 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"phokus.8934" said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

So now men cannot voice a (polite, benign) dissenting opinion without being told that it's "mansplaining" (what a ridiculous term!) and being sexists?Wouldn't it be funny if a man responded in an obscene rant to a woman, profanely telling the woman off for voicing an equally polite, benign opinion, and claiming that the woman is trying to tell him how to do his job? That would be sexism. How is the reverse situation any different?

I find it funny how everyone assumes people who disagree with the actions of the dev are all male. I am a female. MANY people here, on Facebook, and on Reddit are female. Honestly it's kind of insulting to my gender to imply that we will all defend other members of our gender no matter what they do, or act as though we all think "mansplaining" is a real thing or a real problem.

That is called internal misogyny. You are welcome.

Try saying this again, but without using unfounded social theories that can't be tested and replicated.

[Blocki.4931]

@"Tasida.4085" said:Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

Don't comment on it then because most people here will disagree with that notion.

And I will quote myself for this:

"Don't speak up when people treat you poorly, it doesn't affect me personally so it's not relevant"

[Zexanima.7851]

@miraude.2107 said:I understand holding someone to standards on social media, however I also see her frustration in having unsolicited advice, constructive or not, expressed at her on her personal account instead of posting it straight to the game or using official channels. I'm sure most of you would get frustrated and wear thing if the customers you dealt with constantly bombarded you with questions about your work on your personal twitter and facebook after working the hours that they work.This is one of the reasons that most devs in games are starting to make their personal accounts private, have two accounts or just delete them is because of things like this. Honestly this constant posting over and over again akins to a witch hunt. LOOOK, LOOK AT WHAT THIS ANET PERSON DID, EVEN THOUGH THE ADVICE WAS UNSOLICITED, IT WAS ~CONSTRUCTIVE~! SHAME SHAME! Let's ignore that anet is probably already reviewing and considering options since there was a holiday, let's just publicly execute this developer here and now, force their hand and make them fire someone they may not be able to replace at this time.

Anet is really bad about communicating with their player base is the first problem, I can probably name a dozen games off the top of my head at are much much better at it. This is probably (can't say for sure, so don't hold me to it) what brought this around. The player felt their voice wasn't being heard because they were not getting enough feedback so they went straight to the source.

Was this the best course of action? Not really. Did they feel like it was the only course? Probably and rightly so. That being said, she should have put on her adult pants like we all have to do some times and bite the bullet on her own feelings and respond professionally to the comment. In the least apologize after the fact which would be fine, we all make mistakes.

I think the lack of professionalism here is the real killer and if you're going to be responding to someone publicly regarding your place of work/business it is of the utmost importance to be so. There is an expectation from someone in her position if she realizes it or not.

On a personal note; I do NOT find her behavior regarding this acceptable. If you've EVER had to work customer service there are just some basic things you don't do and what she did is one of them. I think anyone who services a customer as their job should be offended by her behaviour. Why does she get to treat her customers like this when the rest of the millions of people who provide services have to suck it up and treat people politely because its their job.

[Lalainnia.3598]

lol feels hurt so easily

[Tolmos.8395]

@"Windu The Forbidden One.6045" said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining doesn't exist. It's just a term some women throw around to shutdown men's arguments when they can't come up with a logical argument themselves.

I might add that very few women throw it around, especially successful professional women. If we were all betting on stuff, I'd bet good money that if you asked random women what mansplaining was, you'd mostly get either confusion or responses negative to the idea of it.

I've luckily never had the misfortune of meeting someone face to face willing to embarrass themselves by using that term.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I'm going to say this again. It doesnt matter if the poster said something misogynistic, racist, anti semitic, or completely innocent. As a "professional" representing your company you can NOT under any circumstance respond to a customer the way she did. She does not have some sort of tenured position that protects her.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Tasida.4085 said:Can't be closed fast enough....none of these with same subject. Bring it into forums just to stir people up. Whatever is said in twitter etc wont have ANY BEARING on how we normal players play our game. Plz stop with this already cos most of us aint gonna quit the game regardless.

It does bleed into the game.That person is designing the game, and dismissing constructive feedback, on the account she's inconvenienced by it, justifying it with a very sexist remark.Also, you can see the white knight co-worker coming to the rescue, which points to an institutionalized issue. So yes, it is of concern, if you care about the future of the game, and the quality of it's releases.

[saerni.2584]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@Laivine.9308 said:

@phokus.8934 said:She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

No. Accusing someone of mansplaining for stating their opinion or challenging your perspective is sexism.

No it isn’t. Explain how you made the leap from “accuse a person of sexism” to “they are sexist.”

@"Dashingsteel.3410"

Not a woman. Ad hominem. Non sequitur.

You can comment on something. I’m suggesting you comment intelligently by understanding her argument and not automatically dismissing it.

He didn't make a leap in logic there because that very leap is what he commented on. Yelling "mansplain" is already sexism because it dismisses a man's opinion or knowledge based on his sex. It's not rocket science and yet people who oppose the entire idea of gendering something like that have to explain it to people who don't see the issue that lies therein

What a laugh

It’s not based on his sex. It’s a term that describes a common sexist assumption by men that women are inherently less competent and need to have the world explained to them by a man. Even if that man is not at all qualified and the woman is highly skilled.

It is a term that describes one result of sexism. It uses “man” because the sexism of men towards women is uniquely represented in this behavior. Women don’t tend to do this behavior as part of their learned behavior.

You are latching onto the use of “man” in “mansplain” to call this sexist. But, this is a red herring that distracts from what she was complaining about—sexism—by making her responsible for a term that uses “man” for no other reason than it accurately describes a socialogical phenomenon.

This is why I call it a logical leap. You start by associating a common term with her and attribute bias to that term without thinking about why that term is what it is. Mansplain is, in context, not a sexist term. References to sex are not the same as bias against that sex.

@Einlanzer.1627

[nosleepdemon.1368]

ANet tend to err on the side of misandry as a whole, being at best, politically correct to the point of hampering the game imo (ahem Taimi). With that said, there are plenty of "rock star" developers out there who believe the sun shines out of their bottoms, and this particular dev appears to fit the mold. The tool she used this time was the sexism card, but had that not been available she would have no doubt done something else. GW2 does a lot of things right, enough for the individual conduct of their developers to not matter all that much to me. As the saying goes - never meet your heroes. Hopefully the existence of this thread is enough of an impetus for her to stop acting like a jerk, but don't expect it.

[thruine.8510]

@"phokus.8934" said:

She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

Basically, why it matters to you? Is sexism a trigger word now? Obviously if you come at someone with this undertone of "I know how to do your job better" and that person is a female in a field dominated by men you run the risk of that type of comment being received as sexist. That's just basic intelligence. Perhaps he (or she) didn't mean it that way. But if you read through the original post she responded to its hard not to see how basic a thought it really is. Well of course it would. Its so basic that to make such a post is to suggest that even something that basic hasn't been considered before by the developer. Maybe its not sexist but it certainly is a bit insulting. Where it becomes sexist is if this is the first time this "advice" has been offered to her specifically. Like I said, we don't know that because we aren't her. We don't know is this something she receives as a matter of course. If we take her co-worker's comment into account then it seems she gets more uncalled for "help" than he. Now its easy to see how instead of just insulting its become sexist also. Plus, the sex of the poster doesn't even matter as women can make sexist comments also.

What can't you understand now?