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Cyrin.1035

By Cyrin.1035
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

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Zabi Zabi.3561

Zabi Zabi.3561

Posted
Posted

I am just going to leave this video here and going to be honest... I AM GLAD SHE GONE! Starwars did something very similar with their "Solo" movie where the Director or those in charge attacked the fan base (which if you trying to sell or have a bunch of people go see something is a BIG NO NO!) and if you saw the sales the movie paid a big price in terms of it because those higher up didn't do anything about it...

However! because ANET did something about it and fired her, you might see an increase in players here's to you Anet for doing the right thing! holds up a mug of moot

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Felipe.1807

Felipe.1807

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Jesus, why people still talking about this? I could understand if this conversation were making some interesting debate or something, but you guys are just running in circles going nowhere...she got the Dhuum ban treatmeant, you agree? Disagree? Dosent matter, whatever you say dosent change the fact that she was not professional when responding to that dude, she crossed the line, you dont treat your customers like that, even when they bahave badly(which he didnt, he was polite the whole time).

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

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Shoyoko.7309

Shoyoko.7309

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Posted

@DaShi.1368 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

LOLOLOLOLNo it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).Its a lot worse than you think.smh.

If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.smh.

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gateless gate.8406

gateless gate.8406

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Posted

@"DaShi.1368" said:I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

"All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?"

FYI, what he did is called "responding" or "talking," not policing. Sadly those words don't have connotations of victimization, but hey.

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Dreadshow.9320

Dreadshow.9320

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@DaShi.1368 said:I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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Posted

@Shoyoko.7309 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

LOLOLOLOLNo it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).Its a lot worse than you think.smh.

If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.smh.

Douchebag behavior is sexist.

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Shoyoko.7309

Shoyoko.7309

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Posted

@DaShi.1368 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

LOLOLOLOLNo it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).Its a lot worse than you think.smh.

If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.smh.

kitten behavior is sexist.

nope

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Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

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@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:It also took them over 6 years to make those stories, and that's with Bioware outsourcing the engine work.

Do you want to wait a entire year between living world episodes?

For the initial storylines, it took that time.

What's worth looking at is the KOTFE content; released on a roughly monthly/bimonthly cadence with new chapters with real impact towards both gameplay and later chapters (at least, as real as you can get in an MMO). Choices between characters, characters dying, romances, distinct flavors between the classes depending on the choices you took both during the KOTFE story and the other storylines. While it wasn't perfect, there was a bit of filler and ultimately all roads led to the throne ship, different choices did have impacts.

 

The end of KOTET's post-release story was disappointing though, traitor Shan's reasoning was spot on if you were darkside

 

What I'm actually curious about is how much pre-production went into the entire cycle rather than on a per-episode basis.

There was a 4 month content drought prior to KOTFE, however there is a large body of circumstantial evidence that they actually began work on KOTFE shortly after finishing the Dread Master story arc with the 2.4 patch. It's also important to note that Bioware literally scrapped the Operations/Flashpoint, PvP, and GSF dev teams in order to put all of their manpower behind the KOTFE arc. (they later abandoned the story focus after the 5.0 expansion after admitting that abandoning group content was a mistake)

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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@gateless gate.8406 said:

@"DaShi.1368" said:I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

"All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?"

FYI, what he did is called "responding" or "talking," not policing. Sadly those words don't have connotations of victimization, but hey.

He's not just responding. He wants me to retract a comment that I never made. Why not put his post beside mine and see if you can figure out the problem?

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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Posted

@Dreadshow.9320 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

That is definitely happening.

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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Posted

@Shoyoko.7309 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

LOLOLOLOLNo it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).Its a lot worse than you think.smh.

If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.smh.

kitten behavior is sexist.

nope

OK, then we've reached the end of this conversation.

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Chasind.3128

Chasind.3128

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Posted

@Shoyoko.7309 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

no, show me the exact quote, im not playing chinese whispers here.

OMG! Are you making demands of me?

No, I want to see the quotes of deroir that proves he was sexist.

Apparently, you're not supposed to disagree or have a difference of opinion because someone will pull the gender card. There was nothing sexist at all. He showed no sort of prejudice in regards of her gender.So, if a man/ woman disagrees with someone of the opposite gender about literally anything; you call that: "sexist do to ignorance in communication." ?? Or is it just sexist because a male disagreed with a female? Or better yet, call it Subliminal sexism.

"ignorance due to not having the experience as a writer but still thinking they know better than person with said job." is a customer is always right mentality. Guess what? the customer isn't always right but that doesn't mean every employee drops their pants and pulls the gender card because they don't like what someone said.

The guy was pretentious, but if an employee has to stoop down to acting like a 16 year old who browses misandrist posts on tumblr all day and cannot keep a profession aura (acting professional has nothing to do with being a man or woman.) There are so many different ways she could have responded. There are way better ways to react to disgruntled people.The only thing sexist is she used her gender to act like a victim to vilify a person whos comment she did not like.

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Dreadshow.9320

Dreadshow.9320

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@DaShi.1368 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

@DaShi.1368 said:All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

@"Dreamwolf.7423" said:I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.And...@Shoyoko.7309 said:The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

That is definitely happening.

Ok is it just that?

Wow man you just hang on to every little last bit do you? It's not even perseverance anymore, it's desperation.

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Alfador.7649

Alfador.7649

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Posted

@DaShi.1368 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

That's not what I said, Karl.

You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

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@Alfador.7649 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

That's not what I said, Karl.

You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else
think
, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can. You're the one who decided to wade in.

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Alfador.7649

Alfador.7649

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Posted

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting.

It's become the American way.

It becomes an issue when you deviate from being a company ambassador of integrity to that of something personal, as if your customers are attacking you directly.

I'm not sure if you read the entire argument, but she should've seen it coming. She made a mistake by bringing up company business in a private Twitter. If you want to share your political beliefs and opinions of similar sort in a social media venue, that's cool; however, once you start bringing your work into it, your opinions are now becoming reflected on behalf of your company. Surely she didn't intend to be the voice of ArenaNet in her words, but she made it so by starting a topic related to her job, then proceeding to get nasty with people.

This is why you shouldn't talk about work on social media unless it's your job. Keep work at work, your outside life to yourself, and let the kitten go to the people in your life that care to lend an ear - NOT to your customers.

And look, they had two ways they could've handled this. They could've let her apologize and keep her around on watch of what she says, or they could've gotten rid of her. From what I've read, JP has been toxic to the community for years. Her Twitter banner is even an indicator of this. She has low-tolerance toward people and is quick to become hostile. Chances are she would've been forced to apologize just to save face, only to grow bitter at the playerbase for trying to get her terminated.

People were threatening to jump ship if ArenaNet didn't terminate her - myself included. I have to deal with enough political drama through the media and Hollywood; the last thing I want are salty developers hiding behind their irrelevant ideologies during simple conversation with honest, genuine players that want to have a conversation.

I say MO did the right thing. Either way, it wasn't an easy decision, but keeping toxicity out lets fresh air in.

I did the read the entire thing and the problem stems from Derior incorrectly determining that the tweet was open for discussion...it wasn't and I could tell it wasn't open for discussion. Sounds like we need to teach people how to understand context when reading as well, though context is part of reading comprehension, which is difficult if you're not a native English speaker(don't know whether or not Derior is) and you're trying to understand something written in English...you won't get the context.

It's almost as if twitter is, by the very core of its function and design, an open forum in which tweets are meant to be liked, shared, and replied to. Posting a detailed explanation of something people are interested in is akin to shouting it in a public square. You surrender all control and social authority over people's responses. You are of course, free to ignore those responses, go so far as to block them if they particularly upset you, or just turn off notifications for the thread to go about your day undisturbed, but there is no scenario where it is rational or reasonable to expect people not to respond and especially not to expect them to determine that a response is unacceptable absent an explicit declaration as such.

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Greyraven.4258

Greyraven.4258

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Posted

Final thoughts on this.........

Sexism, bigotry, and hate know no race, gender, orientation or social class, and in twenty years we will all look back on the wild west days of the internet and cringe.Hopefully by then we will have also learned to talk to each other rather than at each other........hopefully I will also have my hover board I have been waiting on since 1998.

We still have the most welcoming, tolerant and helpful community in the MMO field and that is due to folks like Mike and Gale, we are fortunate to have one game where anyone can log in and be accepted. (Trust me personally that is huge to me for reasons I won't go into)

Being mean or a bully is never ever the answer weather your left right or center, and justifying it with silly sayings like Bash the Fash or Get Woke Go Broke, just makes you the problem and not the answer.

Now I'm going to log into my favorite game and join my friends, because all that is left here is just noise.

Mike O: Thank you for making this awesome gameGale: Thanks for making this forum one I actually want to contribute to.

Peace out

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Shoyoko.7309

Shoyoko.7309

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Posted

@DaShi.1368 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

That's not what I said, Karl.

You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else
think
, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can. You're the one who decided to wade in.

There is no need to make a case if the case doesn't exist at all. You say there is a case of sexism that exist in deroir's feedback however we can't see it and you can't produce evidence of it. Then it's probably not sexism.

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Alfador.7649

Alfador.7649

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Posted

@DaShi.1368 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

That's not what I said, Karl.

You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else
think
, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can.

You haven't made any case at all. If you think I've erred, feel free to point it out. You're the one making an accusation against another person here., By any convention of philosophy, reason, or just social convention, it's on you to make your case. You've accused someone of being sexist and over many hours and who knows how many words You haven't made that case once. Of course, now you accuse me of cherrypicking but I have no doubt that you will neither be able nor willing to point out what I've actually cherrypicked.

Insisting that you've done so doesn't actually make it come true.

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DaShi.1368

DaShi.1368

Posted
Posted

@Shoyoko.7309 said:

What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

@"mixxed.5862" said:I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

The definition of sexism:prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback
workwise
, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree
slighty
". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

That's not what I said, Karl.

You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else
think
, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can. You're the one who decided to wade in.

There is no need to make a case if the case doesn't exist at all. You say there is a case of sexism that exist in deroir's feedback however we can't see and you can't see it. Then it's probably not sexism.

I can clearly see it. Just because you can't doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm seeing pattern here.

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