GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

Feithlinn.9284 · July 6, 2018

@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@omgitsbees.8137 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.
https://twitter.com/ChrisHanel/status/1015138194939973632

This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything.Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities?

Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people.

Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome.Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't)And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation.As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side.

Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in

any

form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community.

It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case.You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok.

That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad.

I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it

wasn't

okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless.

The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted.If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement.Just please consider reading some comments:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8weymk/today_was_a_huge_win_for_players_doing_what_i_can/

Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened.

(Edited for better link)

Thank you. It is always those who scream the loudest that are heard, they dont reflect the majority by no means, however.

Well for some companies customer is always right. Customers are only those who scream the loudest aka reflect the majority. If the majority has a different opinion they need to speak up.

Twyn.7320 · July 6, 2018

@Rococo.8347 said:
@Twyn.7320 said:. So please, try to avoid painting him as a villain for voicing real, evidenced criticism.

I don't think he is the 'villain' atall I think the entire episode is a clusterfcuk and shows just how toxic a 'tool' social media is, but I thought his approach warranted some analysis - of course I was clear about that in my final comment - but you chose to ignore that and paint my more nuanced take on why I found Deroir's question to her misplaced and turn it into some Good V Evil cartoon.

Its also weird you think its ok to condescend me about tree branching already being in the game, if you believe it is to the extent that Deroir would like it then why arnt you directing your comments to him? he is the person that complained about tree branching? he never said, yes I know we have it we need more, he just said - I want tree branching and it would make the connection better with my character. He didn't voice 'evidenced criticism' as you claim.

To be honest its not here in any way that would be considered a big part of your characters narrative - personally I LIKE tree branching, but that wasn't my point in my comment ( my point was its been discussed MANY times and its a permanent 'nope' from Anet on it becoming a significant part of narrative

basically you ignored my thought out analysis of Deroirs take, admonished me for 'claiming' that tee branching doesn't exists then claimed that Deriors request for tree branching was based on 'evidenced criticism' ?

I give up.

And now, you've ignored my point to state your point in a more superior way, whilst still being incorrect. It's a wonderful world.

This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express their character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

It's exactly the thing that Deroir wants, he just wants more of it that isn't tied to an achi treadmill.

You can't claim that it's a permanent nope, because it exists in Guild Wars 2 already, so that claim isn't true. And I'm not being condescending, you're just reading between lines that aren't there. And to put it plainly, I'm opposing you based on what I've seen from your comments:

'Deroir knew branching wasn't an option, he didn't look at her well thought out essay he just wanted to tout his 'superior' thoughts on the situation, that actually ignored analysis she had already made.' - Rococo.8347

I'm not inventing anything here, am I? In that case, he didn't ignore analysis, he disagreed with Jessica's point and provided an opposing argument. He didn't take a superior stance, he articulated his points well, and the reaction from Jessica became the primary issue which she used to further the witch-hunting against Deroir. The thought-out analysis that you're claiming to have made is in the quote above and is effectively a point, with false evidence, and no explanation. Instead, you've tried to paint me as being ignorant, with paper-thin evidence, for basically opposing your view.

So your quote says:

'Deroir knew branching wasn't an option' = Narrative branching isn't an option, apparently, when it's already been shown in Guild Wars 2.

'He didn't look at her well thought-out essay' = 'Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread.' He did read it, so that's a false claim.

'Actually ignored analysis that she had already made' = He opposed her view, he didn't ignore it.

He used Episode 3 as an example of a step, not the finished article, through the comment of the achievement for doing all of the Trial in a particular way. Please, don't try and censor my opinion unless you're prepared to evidence your claims. It's really frustrating to deal with straw-man arguments that add nothing to the debate aside from rhetoric and the same points over and over again, whilst passive-aggressively weaving insults through all of it.

Oh and finally: 'I appreciate the sympathy, but I'll respectfully decline to comment further. I wish to just distance myself from this for now.' - Deroir's Twitter.

If anyone's trying to drag him through the drama after distancing himself, it's on them, not him. So, I'm not avoiding your comments, I'm disputing them.

Raizel.8175 · July 6, 2018

One thing that really interests me: Is this an american (meaning: USA) kinda problem? I've talked with a lot of friends about this topic and they're all profoundly confused. They all agree that Deroir's reply was perfectly fine and can't for the love of god understand the mind of Mrs. Price, yet there are a lot of people here that totally left the area of what we'd call common sense, especially these pseudo-feminists. If you're interested in politics, there is always this debate of a strongly split american society. Is it really that bad?

Voltekka.2375 · July 6, 2018

@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@omgitsbees.8137 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.
https://twitter.com/ChrisHanel/status/1015138194939973632

This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything.Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities?

Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people.

Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome.Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't)And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation.As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side.

Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in

any

form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community.

It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case.You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok.

That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad.

I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it

wasn't

okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless.

The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted.If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement.Just please consider reading some comments:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8weymk/today_was_a_huge_win_for_players_doing_what_i_can/

Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened.

(Edited for better link)

Thank you. It is always those who scream the loudest that are heard, they dont reflect the majority by no means, however.

Well for some companies customer is always right. Customers are only those who scream the loudest aka reflect the majority. If the majority has a different opinion they need to speak up.

Quite the logical leap, there, eh?

Feithlinn.9284 · July 6, 2018

@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@"Oneiroid.9245" said:Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations
symbolize
more in the future. [...]

Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing.

No they don't . They think the are experts and they do and go on twitter to harass any developer and patronize them how to do their jobs. That's not customer-feedback.

In terms of actual gameplay, players often simply know better. It's just a fact. Guilds like SC will always be more knowledgeable in terms of instanced-PvE-balancing than your standard developer; people with legendary rating will certainly know better in terms of PvP-balancing; same goes to major WvW-progress-guilds. It's like that in any MMORPG and the feedback of these people will always be valuable. Taking balance as example, there certainly won't ever be a perfect balance in any game and sometimes, developers have certain thoughts as to why some stuff isn't balanced. When people make suggestions as to how to improve balancing, the reasonable thing would be to explain why the developers decided to do stuff the way they did. That's just not what a professional would do, it's also common sense. It doesn't even matter if they're experts or not, there always is the possibility that they may have a point with their arguments.

Mrs. Price wasn't harassed. A player just made a suggestion. She could have been professional and tell him why she's spinning the story the way she does. Instead, she harassed him. I'm also wondering why people always bring up this expert-argument. There was this argument on reddit that totally hits the point: Electricians often fix stuff other electricians (experts) broke. It happens that experts can be wrong, no matter how long they are in their business. Even a developer can be wrong. It happens quite a lot lately in modern gaming. It's the way it is. Hell, I could even argue that the storytelling actually is bad. Art isn't just some weird unexplainable thing. There are rules to art, especially to writing. It's at least questionable to instantly end your narrative at the climax with a deus ex machina. In terms of the narrative of a drama, the climax of a story (or a short-story inside that story) isn't its end. What follows is something called "retarding momentum" or "falling action" and I can assure you that a lot of people would prefer such storytelling in terms of episode 3.

Lastly - again with the harassment-argument -, conflict is one of the fundamental aspects of our species. We can't exist without conflict. The wise way to use conflict as a driving factor for both personal and human evolution is the art of discussion. Discussion enables us to learn stuff. If someone doesn't know better, the right thing to do us to explain how stuff works to him, thus enlighten him. That's what a professional is supposed to do.

I hear you but there are places and ways to make criticism and give feedback without sounding like a pretentious jerk explaining to you the very basis of your job. If you are not asked for feedback and you keep insisting you know better than the developer even in a very polite way it is easy to call it harassment. You can disagree with someone and still respect them but on the other side you can pretend to be super polite and thoughtful and still offend someone. By all means she had every right to defend herself the way she feels. Jobs are just jobs. Feelings are way more important.

melodyca.8921 · July 6, 2018

@Raizel.8175 said:
@Oneiroid.9245 said:Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations
symbolize
more in the future. [...]

Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing.

And to some of us this is a warning call that the some members of player base are not welcome

WingLegacy.7159 · July 6, 2018

Enough Anet close this thread....

Loukious.7346 · July 6, 2018

@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express their character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

Feithlinn.9284 · July 6, 2018

@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Voltekka.2375 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@omgitsbees.8137 said:
@Deihnyx.6318 said:
@Eternity Theory.5392 said:Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.
https://twitter.com/ChrisHanel/status/1015138194939973632

This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything.Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities?

Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people.

Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome.Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't)And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation.As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side.

Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in

any

form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community.

It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case.You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok.

That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad.

I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it

wasn't

okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless.

The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted.If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement.Just please consider reading some comments:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8weymk/today_was_a_huge_win_for_players_doing_what_i_can/

Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened.

(Edited for better link)

Thank you. It is always those who scream the loudest that are heard, they dont reflect the majority by no means, however.

Well for some companies customer is always right. Customers are only those who scream the loudest aka reflect the majority. If the majority has a different opinion they need to speak up.

Quite the logical leap, there, eh?

I don't think so. We had a specific decision from a company based on who screams the loudest aka the community. Do I miss something ?

Raizel.8175 · July 6, 2018

@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@"Oneiroid.9245" said:Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations
symbolize
more in the future. [...]

Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing.

No they don't . They think the are experts and they do and go on twitter to harass any developer and patronize them how to do their jobs. That's not customer-feedback.

In terms of actual gameplay, players often simply know better. It's just a fact. Guilds like SC will always be more knowledgeable in terms of instanced-PvE-balancing than your standard developer; people with legendary rating will certainly know better in terms of PvP-balancing; same goes to major WvW-progress-guilds. It's like that in any MMORPG and the feedback of these people will always be valuable. Taking balance as example, there certainly won't ever be a perfect balance in any game and sometimes, developers have certain thoughts as to why some stuff isn't balanced. When people make suggestions as to how to improve balancing, the reasonable thing would be to explain why the developers decided to do stuff the way they did. That's just not what a professional would do, it's also common sense. It doesn't even matter if they're experts or not, there always is the possibility that they may have a point with their arguments.

Mrs. Price wasn't harassed. A player just made a suggestion. She could have been professional and tell him why she's spinning the story the way she does. Instead, she harassed him. I'm also wondering why people always bring up this expert-argument. There was this argument on reddit that totally hits the point: Electricians often fix stuff other electricians (experts) broke. It happens that experts can be wrong, no matter how long they are in their business. Even a developer can be wrong. It happens quite a lot lately in modern gaming. It's the way it is. Hell, I could even argue that the storytelling actually is bad. Art isn't just some weird unexplainable thing. There are rules to art, especially to writing. It's at least questionable to instantly end your narrative at the climax with a deus ex machina. In terms of the narrative of a drama, the climax of a story (or a short-story inside that story) isn't its end. What follows is something called "retarding momentum" or "falling action" and I can assure you that a lot of people would prefer such storytelling in terms of episode 3.

Lastly - again with the harassment-argument -, conflict is one of the fundamental aspects of our species. We can't exist without conflict. The wise way to use conflict as a driving factor for both personal and human evolution is the art of discussion. Discussion enables us to learn stuff. If someone doesn't know better, the right thing to do us to explain how stuff works to him, thus enlighten him. That's what a professional is supposed to do.

I hear you but there are places and ways to make criticism and give feedback without sounding like a pretentious jerk explaining to you the very basis of your job. If you are not asked for feedback and you keep insisting you know better than the developer even in a very polite way it is easy to call it harassment. You can disagree with someone and still respect them but on the other side you can pretend to be super polite and thoughtful and still offend someone. By all means she had every right to defend herself the way she feels. Jobs are just jobs. Feelings are way more important.

He posted his "criticism" - it mostly only was a suggestion - in a polite and friendly manner. He didn't sound like a "pretentious jerk" (nice ad hominem towards him btw). She used twitter - the most public forum this world knows. You're always asking for feedback when you post stuff in a public forum; at least you know that there always is the risk to get feedback if you express your opinion publicly. You take that risk out of your own free will if you post stuff on twitter. In fact, her whole twitter-history shows that she's always quite eager to get positive feedback. God forbid if someone "slightly" (D's words) disagrees in a polite and friendly manner. In fact, he even expressed his respect towards her work - she just chose not to respect him in turn but rather insult him.

Feithlinn.9284 · July 6, 2018

@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

I had no idea that anyone has to take mine or your opinion on how to reply when they feel harassed. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Twyn.7320 · July 6, 2018

@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

The irony is that this kind of behaviour is what hurts the Feminism movement, rather than helps it. People like Jessica Price and those who follow her aren't looking for equality, they're trying to replace the system with a matriarchy. If you ever hear a Feminist that says: 'Eurgh, this country/company/organisation would be run so much better by women', it's a warning sign of matriarchy, not equality of the sexes. It's why Feminism has slowed down and it's losing its effect on the general public. If Feminists focused on actual sexism, rather than throwing BS arguments at people who disagree with them on normal things, the movement would actually get somewhere. It really frustrates me, if you haven't like noticed. :wink:

Maiden England.3491 · July 6, 2018

she doesn't deserve a job in the company if she disrespects the hand that feeds her, the community. well done

CETheLucid.3964 · July 6, 2018

@WingLegacy.7159 said:Enough Anet close this thread....What? You don't find all the crazies with alt accounts that have no real posting history jumping out of the woodwork entertaining?

Oh. Right.

Holykitten.3064 · July 6, 2018

@"Loukious.7346" said:This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed.
He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job.
He was offering an opinion.
One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point".
Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

This is what people keep skipping over entirely.And it's sad that people keep boiling it down to "a man tried to tell a dev what her job was". No he didn't, She assumed that because she likes to pick fights with people that *slightly disagree with her**. That was precisely what her tweet was, and people parrott it like it's truth because some Dev with a snootch said it. (I also have a snootch, and I don't use it's existance to avoid critique or conversation)

Deroirs suggestion is and I quote:

if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express their character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG.

That's the suggestion in Deroirs 3 tweets. We currently do NOT get enough dialogue variances, even if it's only text and not VO'd. We get this sort of variance and choice in Gorriks Trial had any of you played the newest LS 4 Episode. So it is indeed a doable thing, and many players would like to see more of that kind of writing. How much and how often is up for debate, I don't know the trade-offs/budget/target/timescale that Anet sets, however, JPs reaction is still highly unprofessional.

Sondergaard.8469 · July 6, 2018

Truly an example of over-reaction. I really don't think the initial comment justified JP's level of response. In fact, if she didn't appreciate the comment, quite literally all she had to do was not respond or engage with that line of commentary. And don't give me that bullshit about silencing women. I get bullshit comments on a daily basis, I'm a man, you know what I do? I ignore them. Does that make it right for people making those bullshit comments in the first place? No absolutely not, but you know what would get me in trouble? Throwing a tantrum in public. The second she launched into an attack, over what appears to be rather polite opinion, she was in the wrong. I get where she's coming from, I really do. All of the crap that women put up with in the working world is ridiculous, but the comment she chose to pick her battle on for that topic really did -not- help anyone, much less herself.

That said, this really doesn't boil down to a gender issue. The comment was respectfully made, and if you took gender out of it entirely, it was still respectfully made. Her response was hypersensitive and created an issue where one did not exist. This also isn't the first time she's popped off and made some really ugly/hateful comments on her twitter account. Let's not forget her saying she was GLAD TotalBiscuit died. Despite what your personal feelings are for a person, spitting on someone's grave is disgustingly unprofessional.

The moral question of the day is should she have been fired over it? Well, I honestly don't know if the twitter responses were the entirety of that decision. We only know what she said publicly, we have no idea what was said to her privately about the matter that led to her termination. For all we know, ArenaNet gave her the opportunity to offer a public apology and she told them to piss off. Regardless, her very public outbursts were causing damage to the ArenaNet brand. Oddly quite a few of the people who are saying ArenaNet is wrong for firing her are the people who were cheering when Palmer Lucky and Roseanne got fired for similar issues. It's a bit hypocritical no?

DakkBlakk.5648 · July 6, 2018

Wow, i left this game years ago because of this person and the toxicity i'd experienced. When i heard about this i came to see if it was true.I'm reinstalling the game now!!

From one Mo the another MO and to ANET, thank you for getting rid of the bully!!!

Twyn.7320 · July 6, 2018

@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

I had no idea that anyone has to take mine or your opinion on how to reply when they feel harassed. I'll keep that in mind next time.

She wasn't being harassed. It was an opposing view that she turned into a dispute. If she'd kept a level-head, like most normal people, she'd have pushed the feedback towards the Guild Wars 2 Forums, or Reddit for a further discussion. She chose to reply in the horrendous way that she did, and she did it multiple times, to multiple people, across multiple days. There's no wall to hide behind, and there shouldn't be one. It was a disgusting situation, and one that ArenaNet's dealt with in the only way possible. Feel free to disagree, but a simple apology wouldn't have fixed anything, not to reclaim the credibility that ArenaNet almost lost to the wider industry.

Laivine.9308 · July 6, 2018

@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

If you want feedback, you ask for it. If you offer feedback without being asked for it, you're an arse. Period.

Try to imagine how it would be receiving feedback for all possible things, that you are fully aware of, on your everyday life without asking it. You all seem to miss this critical point.

Feithlinn.9284 · July 6, 2018

@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@"Oneiroid.9245" said:Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations
symbolize
more in the future. [...]

Sorry to shorten the quote, but what it symbolizes is as follows: That ANet values its playerbase. This was not the first time that that specific developer lashed out at the community. For a professional, it shouldn't even happen once. The problem also isn't only her pulling the sexism-card, it's also her - and Peter in extension - telling that they don't care at all about community-feedback. People already have that impression since it seems that ANet isn't taking constructive feedback into consideration, the best example being class-balance. Customer-feedback is of utmost importance in MMORPG-development, 'cause sometimes, your customers simply know better - especially in terms of balancing.

No they don't . They think the are experts and they do and go on twitter to harass any developer and patronize them how to do their jobs. That's not customer-feedback.

In terms of actual gameplay, players often simply know better. It's just a fact. Guilds like SC will always be more knowledgeable in terms of instanced-PvE-balancing than your standard developer; people with legendary rating will certainly know better in terms of PvP-balancing; same goes to major WvW-progress-guilds. It's like that in any MMORPG and the feedback of these people will always be valuable. Taking balance as example, there certainly won't ever be a perfect balance in any game and sometimes, developers have certain thoughts as to why some stuff isn't balanced. When people make suggestions as to how to improve balancing, the reasonable thing would be to explain why the developers decided to do stuff the way they did. That's just not what a professional would do, it's also common sense. It doesn't even matter if they're experts or not, there always is the possibility that they may have a point with their arguments.

Mrs. Price wasn't harassed. A player just made a suggestion. She could have been professional and tell him why she's spinning the story the way she does. Instead, she harassed him. I'm also wondering why people always bring up this expert-argument. There was this argument on reddit that totally hits the point: Electricians often fix stuff other electricians (experts) broke. It happens that experts can be wrong, no matter how long they are in their business. Even a developer can be wrong. It happens quite a lot lately in modern gaming. It's the way it is. Hell, I could even argue that the storytelling actually is bad. Art isn't just some weird unexplainable thing. There are rules to art, especially to writing. It's at least questionable to instantly end your narrative at the climax with a deus ex machina. In terms of the narrative of a drama, the climax of a story (or a short-story inside that story) isn't its end. What follows is something called "retarding momentum" or "falling action" and I can assure you that a lot of people would prefer such storytelling in terms of episode 3.

Lastly - again with the harassment-argument -, conflict is one of the fundamental aspects of our species. We can't exist without conflict. The wise way to use conflict as a driving factor for both personal and human evolution is the art of discussion. Discussion enables us to learn stuff. If someone doesn't know better, the right thing to do us to explain how stuff works to him, thus enlighten him. That's what a professional is supposed to do.

I hear you but there are places and ways to make criticism and give feedback without sounding like a pretentious jerk explaining to you the very basis of your job. If you are not asked for feedback and you keep insisting you know better than the developer even in a very polite way it is easy to call it harassment. You can disagree with someone and still respect them but on the other side you can pretend to be super polite and thoughtful and still offend someone. By all means she had every right to defend herself the way she feels. Jobs are just jobs. Feelings are way more important.

He posted his "criticism" - it mostly only was a suggestion - in a polite and friendly manner. He didn't sound like a "pretentious jerk" (nice ad hominem towards him btw). She used twitter - the most public forum this world knows. You're always asking for feedback when you post stuff in a public forum; at least you know that there always is the risk to get feedback if you express your opinion publicly. You take that risk out of your own free will if you post stuff on twitter. In fact, her whole twitter-history shows that she's always quite eager to get positive feedback. God forbid if someone "slightly" (D's words) disagrees in a polite and friendly manner. In fact, he even expressed his respect towards her work - she just chose not to respect him in turn but rather insult him.

She had already addressed those issues in her very long and insightful AMA in reddit, but him instead of proposing or asking something (which she clearly didn't ask for to begin with) he tried to keep insisting(the cutest word i can find) how wrong she is and that if she knew better she would choose the branching approach. Later on she asked him to leave her alone and he kept harassing her and in the end he went crying on reddit till the "community" shows up to harass her even more. In fact , he even expressed his respect towards her work . Indeed , he did.

Raizel.8175 · July 6, 2018

@Laivine.9308 said:
@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

If you want feedback, you ask for it. If you offer feedback without being asked for it, you're an kitten. Period.

Try to imagine how it would be receiving feedback for all possible things, that you are fully aware of, on your everyday life without asking it. You all seem to miss this critical point.

So... People shouldn't criticize No. 45 anymore for what idiocy he's spreading via twitter?

Twyn.7320 · July 6, 2018

@Laivine.9308 said:
@Loukious.7346 said:
@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

If you want feedback, you ask for it. If you offer feedback without being asked for it, you're an kitten. Period.

Try to imagine how it would be receiving feedback for all possible things, that you are fully aware of, on your everyday life without asking it. You all seem to miss this critical point.

She accepted positive feedback without stating that she wanted feedback. Deroir had every right to post an opposing view at that point. Unless you're explicitly clear that you don't want any form of feedback, you can't pick and choose who says what to your argument. We're not missing a point, people are just making things up from thin air in an attempt to defend someone who did really inappropriate things to multiple members of the industry, that anyone else would've been fired for in any other profession.

And if we need to use your example, I see a lot of instances of Jessica Price retweeting and commenting on other people's posts on Twitter, but they haven't asked for feedback. It has to work both ways, so isn't she a 'kitten' for also doing that, and thus hypocritical?

Raizel.8175 · July 6, 2018

@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@Feithlinn.9284 said:
@Raizel.8175 said:
@"Oneiroid.9245" said:Chiming in again to say I hope that anet considers what these situations
symbolize
more in the future. [...]