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GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

Cyrin.1035

By Cyrin.1035
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

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Just a flesh wound.3589

Just a flesh wound.3589

Posted
Posted

@Phosphorite.6192 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Now you people are just making up kitten because you know your arguments are starting to look incredibly weak when stood up to scrutiny. All she did was say she doesn't want someone injecting their opinion into her work. I wouldn't either! It's not her job to give a kitten about feedback from some whiny nobody on the internet. You're an overly sensitive manchild if you got upset about what she said.

That’s not all she said.

After he apologized twice and left she continued the next day, calling him a Rando [Kitten]hat and making fun of his “manfeels” (an extraordinarily sexist remark making fun of men’s feelings).

If she had accepted his apology and dropped the issue then she’d have a job today.

She didn't even call him in particular an kitten hat. She vented about the dozens of kitten hats who feel entitled to do this kind of stuff every single day. He was just that one guy who acted as the "straw that broke the camels back".

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Now you people are just making up kitten because you know your arguments are starting to look incredibly weak when stood up to scrutiny. All she did was say she doesn't want someone injecting their opinion into her work. I wouldn't either! It's not her job to give a kitten about feedback from some whiny nobody on the internet. You're an overly sensitive manchild if you got upset about what she said.

That’s not all she said.

After he apologized twice and left she continued the next day, calling him a Rando [Kitten]hat and making fun of his “manfeels” (an extraordinarily sexist remark making fun of men’s feelings).

If she had accepted his apology and dropped the issue then she’d have a job today.

She didn't even call him in particular an kitten hat. She vented about the dozens of kitten hats who feel entitled to do this kind of stuff every single day. He was just that one guy who acted as the "straw that broke the camels back".

She wasn’t talking obout others and she didn’t have to say his name. She said “like, the next rando [kitten]hat who attempts to explain the concept of branching dialogue to me...”.

That makes it clear she was talking about him specifically and his post on branching dialogs.

She continued to attack and insult him after he apologized and left. That’s why she got in trouble. She refused to take I’m sorry for an answer.

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Ace Kenshader.1253

Ace Kenshader.1253

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Posted

I haven't played Guild Wars 2 in years, so my opinions don't hold much weight. But I do believe that ArenaNet handled this unbelievably poorly by firing the two developers and caving into the fringe mobs of GamerGate and the alt-right. And yes, I am aware that moderate voices were also part of the mix, but they were few and far in between when compared to the fringes.

All this does is make the gaming industry realize that if you value your job, never ever interact with your customer base.

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Twyn.7320

Twyn.7320

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@"Feithlinn.9284" said:

Minority in the case that they're the minority from what I've seen over the last couple of days. That's all. I didn't mean it in any other way. Ultimately, a company will always focus on the majority, which is the section of the community that's fine with the decision, and moving on. There are two minority factions right now: People who vehemently disagree with their firing to the point of insulting people who agree with ArenaNet and witch-hunting them. And people who strongly agree to the point of witch-hunting Jessica Price and Peter Fries, taking an 'eye for an eye' approach. The vast majority have just said: 'Okay, fine, nice to know that we're safe in ArenaNet's eyes' and moved on with their lives.

No , the real vast majority said nothing at all.

On the other hand someone of the people you consider vast majority is the one that said “We can probably fire anyone on the GW2 dev team as long we make a big enough stink. Nobody at Arenanet is safe from the hand of Reddit... The moment a dev steps out of line or try to talk back to a player, guess what, they’ll know we got their hands on their throat and we can squeeze any time we like.”

Company made the decision though focusing on the latter "majority". Can't wait to find out who's next on the line.

So you're putting words in my mouth and telling me what my views are? Classy. Also, I'm not claiming that the vast majority actually said those exact words, it's just the logic behind their stance.

However, the hyperbolic comment above is only correct in certain situations. If an employee tries to trash the company's image through setting up an affiliate for a witch-hunt, then they deserve to be criticised and a backlash will follow. No one's 'next on the line' unless they do something that's equally horrendous, like throwing the community and the company under the bus to further career prospects. It's disgusting, she can't admit fault, and it's going to make her case much worse.

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Feithlinn.9284

Feithlinn.9284

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So you're putting words in my mouth and telling me what my views are? Classy. Also, I'm not claiming that the vast majority actually said those exact words, it's just the logic behind their stance.

However, the hyperbolic comment above is only correct in certain situations. If an employee tries to trash the company's image through setting up an affiliate for a witch-hunt, then they deserve to be criticised and a backlash will follow. No one's 'next on the line' unless they do something that's equally horrendous, like throwing the community and the company under the bus to further career prospects. It's disgusting, she can't admit fault, and it's going to make her case much worse.

Putting words in your mouth?Please. I'm just saying loud what you keep implying. Let me rephrase then. I can not wait to see who is next on the line that "does something that's equally horrendous, like throwing the community and the company under the bus to further career prospects like (JK & Peter Fries did)". How am I doing?

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Digit.1823

Digit.1823

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@Phosphorite.6192 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Admiring a certain personality trait is one thing.

But what she did had NOTHING to do with "willingness to speak truth to power". Whatever the hell that means. She blatantly pulled out the sexism card where there was none when all Deroir ever wanted to do was spark genuinely friendly discussion, continuing to berate Deroir even AFTER the fact he already publicly apologized profoundly and indicating he never intended any harm or insults or whatever. Continuing the drop the f-bomb on Inks after he oh so carefully tried to engage her in a very polite manner (as we know, Inks has been described multiple times now that he's a very chill guy).

Oh and again, there's the TotalBiscuit fiasco which has also been pointed out to you several times. But hey, apparently you see nothing wrong with her tweet celebrating his early death at the hands of cancer, so maybe there is no talking to you either and the best course of action is to just ignore you from now on. I swear i cannot possibly imagine the mental gymnastics you are performing to even think what she did was even slightly okay. What is wrong with you...

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grackle.8043

grackle.8043

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so i'm sure, by now, that ANET is aware of what the repercussions have been so far, for the community. who feels emboldened by this decision, and how.and i'm going to go ahead and voice my concern in a more concrete way.having read this thread- the first ten pages or so anyway, before i got sickened by it- and some commentary on other sites. i'm no longer going to be playing guild wars 2 for the foreseeable future.until ArenaNet does something solid to make the right-wingers feel unwelcome, what they've done with this decision is to make women and minorities feel unwelcome. and unsafe. and the people who hate minorities, and who hate women? are the loudest and most vicious of the cheering crowds right now.i bought this game and the expansion pack when the community was literally one of the biggest selling points. it's never been perfect, but almost overnight it has become overtly hostile as far as i can see.so i'm done. i'm not welcome here, as i can see. so i'm leaving.Mike O'Brien look at the ripple you have just sent out and question whether this is the direction you want this community to go in.

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CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

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@Phosphorite.6192 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

Except Deroir wasn't being condescending in the least. Where racism is coming from in this is as much of a mystery as where she got sociopolitical gender issues out of a minor disagreement on video game narrative.

You guys have some really active imaginations. I wish you'd use it for good.

It doesn't matter if Deroir was trying to be condescending or not. Effect > intention. I'm repeating myself but he disregarded her thought out, clearly written essay with an "well actually" kind of post, no matter how polite he worded it. It's not only about him doing it, it's about men always feeling entitled to chime in on whatever just bc they feel like it. And that is very much a sexism issue.

Very insightful. Alrighty then. Be well.

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Zaklex.6308

Zaklex.6308

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@Raizel.8175 said:

@Ash.5274 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:The vast majority of you have a great deal of growing up to do. I just hope society isn't scuppered by the unreal amount of triggering and thin-skinnedness shown in this thread. I also hope none of you ever get on the chopping block for something you wrote on a web site. Losing your job sucks. Your employer not having your back absolutely sucks. It's not a good thing, a good thing would have been the devs apologising, instead they're out of a job with bills to pay. Anyone who says that's a good thing has never left their mother's basement.

So you should expect your employer to have your back when you make that employer look bad on social media? Really?

For what it's worth I completely agree that losing your job is never a good thing, but they lost their jobs as a direct consequence of their own actions. They have no one to blame but themselves, it really is as simple as that.

So you're saying the company you work for controls your
personal
social media presence the minute you include who you work for in your
personal
social media, or write something that happens to be about what you work on? Well, I've decided to enlighten myself and allow people to have a work life and a personal life, two entirely different areas that should almost never encroach on each other, and that what someone says or does on their personal time does not nor ever will reflect on their employer...but I'm in the super minority on this point.

Yes and yes. You are free to post whatever you like on your personal social media accounts but if the content breaks the code of conduct for your company they have every right to remove you from your position. Turns out consequences exist

Interesting how you completely ignored the remainder of my statement only to answer the rhetorical question I posed at the beginning...so let me restate what I said. It's my belief that your employer
does not
have control over what you post on your
personal
social media, regardless of whether or not said employer is listed on your personal social media accounts, and to further clarify, your employer does not need to have your back on what you post, but
neither do they have the right to sensor you
, it's your
personal thoughts and opinions, not the companies
...that's the difference and corporate America(and the World) needs to learn that.

Thats not true at all, twitter isnt personal at all. Its accessible for all people. Furthermore, your points are valid to some degree, there is a line between personal life and work. But if you state in your "personal" social media account that you work for company in the gaming scene you also increase your range drasticly. If she doenst dress herself with being an anet employee she would just be another twitter nobody, nobody would even care to give her any attention at all.

The fact that she willingly connects these two aspects means she also takes a responsibility here. Shes not just a personal twitter account at this moment anymore. This is, like in the comedy scene, or in politics, if you shittalk some of your fans, suppporters or customers (especially in gaming) you gotta pay the consequences.

On topic, i think ANet did the right thing here, proving that they are not just the illusion of teamwork or a "business model" based on the "creating games for the players".

Did ArenaNet set up that Twitter account for JP...if not then it's personal, regardless of what information you place on it...that is the basis of my entire thought process when it comes to these kind of social media issues. Unless the employer provides you that social media account it doesn't matter to me who or what you list on that account, it's your own personal account and the thoughts on that account belong to you and you alone, they do not reflect on your employer, even if you name that employer on your account. Why is that so hard for everyone to understand...are people so psychologically screwed up they can't separate the person from their job anymore? It happens a lot with athletes too, and politicians...I really don't understand humans anymore, it's like they've locked themselves into this tiny little moment in time and are unwilling to learn and change with the times. Sort of like how GW2 maps are snippets of time.

I'm sorry, but this isn't how human society works. Work isn't just a means to earn money. Work also has important social functions such as generating the feeling that you're contributing to the society or the way it forms your identity. Work will always be a part of someones identity and as such, people will always represent their work, no matter if they want or not. If people don't want that, they shouldn't publicly associate themselves with their work. Mrs. Price did though and thus, she also represents her work. It's not anyones fault but her own that she dragged her work into it.

Don't blame it on human society, blame it on human stupidity for not being able to separate work from personal life...my work only applies to me from when I clock in to when I clock out...the rest of the time is my own. Yes, I do act differently at work, I'm not the same person, I do not bring work home with me, I don't even think about once I leave it...it doesn't even define me...I don't even care about it...it's just a means to earn money, if I wanted to contribute to society that would have to be on a public stage like politics or volunteer work. My work has nothing to do with my identity, it's far from my identity...you couldn't guess what I do from knowing me. Ms or Miss Price should be allowed to say anything she wants on her own personal social media, whether she identifies her employer or not, but that's just to 24th Century for most humans to comprehend...one day people will stop caring about what other people do and what others think of them, only then will we as a society be able to evolve beyond petty grievances.

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Vegeta.2563

Vegeta.2563

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@"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:I haven't played Guild Wars 2 in years, so my opinions don't hold much weight. But I do believe that ArenaNet handled this unbelievably poorly by firing the two developers and caving into the fringe mobs of kitten and the alt-right. And yes, I am aware that moderate voices were also part of the mix, but they were few and far in between when compared to the fringes.

All this does is make the gaming industry realize that if you value your job, never ever interact with your customer base.

I can agree with half of this. I can agree Peter was only doing what he thought was right, at the most he only should have been warned.

Jessica however, took what Deroir said way out of proportion. He was giving legitimate feedback, and she took it as he was telling her how to do her job. She then proceed with "Today in being a FEMALE dev" Like what does gender have anything to do with the subject. That's where everything went south. She then goes on to shooting down INKS, as well as Jebro. She even mocked TotalBiscuit's Death a week or so before that. Keep in mind she "isn't on the clock" (yeah ok that makes a difference when you are working for a well known game that has millions of players. o_O ). Later on in an interview, she basically said that the company wasn't a safe place for Women to work in. Like what?? She's pulled the Sexism card in the past before, and she's had a history of it before. The way ArenaNet looked at it, they don't want someone in their company that's going to make them look bad, or cause negativity towards their game's community.

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Phosphorite.6192

Phosphorite.6192

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@Digit.1823 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Admiring a
certain
personality trait is one thing.

But what she did had
NOTHING
to do with "willingness to speak truth to power". Whatever the hell that means. She blatantly pulled out the sexism card where there was none when all Deroir ever wanted to do was spark genuinely friendly discussion, continuing to berate Deroir even
AFTER
the fact he already publicly apologized profoundly and indicating he never intended any harm or insults or whatever. Continuing the drop the f-bomb on Inks after he oh so carefully tried to engage her in a very polite manner (as we know, Inks has been described multiple times now that he's a very chill guy).

Oh and again, there's the TotalBiscuit fiasco which has also been pointed out to you several times. But hey, apparently you see nothing wrong with her tweet celebrating his early death at the hands of cancer, so maybe there is no talking to you either and the best course of action is to just ignore you from now on. I swear i cannot possibly imagine the mental gymnastics you are performing to even think what she did was even slightly okay. What is wrong with you...

Oh please, can you drop the TB thing already? He was a terrible person who was not only abusive towards others but actively wished some people to get cancer and die from it as well. The tweet she wrote about him was incredibly mellow considering what could've been said about him. Not being sad about an abusive person leaving this world doesn't make her a monster.

EDIT: ALSO if the TB tweet was so bad as you make it seem to be, why did she never get any backlash from Anet for that? Apparently that wasn't worth firing her over but as soon as a mob was out for blood, they dropped her like a hot potato.

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Felipe.1807

Felipe.1807

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@Ace Kenshader.1253 said:I haven't played Guild Wars 2 in years, so my opinions don't hold much weight. But I do believe that ArenaNet handled this unbelievably poorly by firing the two developers and caving into the fringe mobs of kitten and the alt-right. And yes, I am aware that moderate voices were also part of the mix, but they were few and far in between when compared to the fringes.

All this does is make the gaming industry realize that if you value your job, never ever interact with your customer base.

Alt right? What a hell, why you guys have such a hard on for politics shit? This have nothing to deal with that, is just a dev that acted extremelly poorly...you allways should interact with your customers, but if you cant even take other people opinions and criticism them you probably shouldnt even be in this business in the first place.

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Raizel.8175

Raizel.8175

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@omgitsbees.8137 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:One thing that really interests me: Is this an american (meaning: USA) kinda problem? I've talked with a lot of friends about this topic and they're all profoundly confused. They all agree that Deroir's reply was perfectly fine and can't for the love of god understand the mind of Mrs. Price, yet there are a lot of people here that totally left the area of what we'd call common sense, especially these pseudo-feminists. If you're interested in politics, there is always this debate of a strongly split american society. Is it really that bad?

This past election showed the country is almost split evenly. At least as far as voters are concerned. We've been a country divided. We came together once this century and even that didn't last long. Not sure how to mend the split when both sides sees the other as dangerous and completely opposite the values of this country. We saw children caged not to long ago. That hasn't happened since WWII. Its not a great time for the country and hasn't really been in a very long time.

It's quite sad that people seemingly aren't able to truly compromise anymore for the greater good - especially in such an extreme way. I'm already shocked about all the nonsense going on in my own country concerning the refugee-topic.

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Now you people are just making up kitten because you know your arguments are starting to look incredibly weak when stood up to scrutiny. All she did was say she doesn't want someone injecting their opinion into her work. I wouldn't either! It's not her job to give a kitten about feedback from some whiny nobody on the internet. You're an overly sensitive manchild if you got upset about what she said.
  • It's the way she did it.
  • It wasn't a "whiny nobody", it was one of ArenaNets well-known partners.
  • So she's also an overly sensitive womanchild since she got upset about what Deroir said?

She can respond however the hell she wants. And yes Deroir is a nobody. Who gives a kitten if he is a partner to ArenaNet? So what? His Youtube channel has 7.7k subscribers. That is a nobody of any importance. I own Guild Wars 2, both expansions, and have spent like $200 on the cash shop, someone from Anet needs to come here and rub one off on me.

No, she can't. She's a professional that linked her public twitter-account to her employer and talked openly and in-depth about her work. By doing so, she made herself a representative of ArenaNet. She has to uphold certain professional standards. Even if it only were her private account, there is still what's called "basic human decency". Her reaction though was an open insult - especially the later replies calling him names. People can interpret that as defamation which can get her sued (at least where I live).

To answer your question: Both ArenaNet, ArenaNets partners and potential customers give a "kitten". Her behaviour does reflect badly. It doesn't even matter if he's just a "noname" fan or an official partner. You simply don't insult your customers in that way. That's common sense. Coming back to the specific situation: Do you think it's good PR for a company if it tolerates that its employees insult its customers? Do you truly think people aren't affected if they hadn't acted in favor of the customers? ArenaNets partners advertise the game publicly and generate new customers that way. If you tolerate that your employees insult them, you have the risk of losing them, resulting in financial loss. The same goes for insulting fans. Why should people start playing GW2 if its developers openly insult customers and say that they don't care about feedback?

...and just to make it clear: Initially - even considering her "history" in twitter - I just wanted her to apologize to Deroir to get this over with. That would be the wise solution to solve things and she would have kept face. Hell, even Deroir himself is sad that it has come to this. She instead chose to make the situation even worse, badmouthing her employer (which can get her sued). Now though, I guess ArenaNet did the right thing in firing her. It's just sad that Peter also had to go.

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muffi.3964

muffi.3964

Posted
Posted

@omgitsbees.8137 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

Again I don't care if you say it's not a thing, I'm too educated to care about something you clearly picked up from some Genderstudies lad.

Congrats on being able to link a dictionary as if its relevant.

Yes commonly agreed with language usage is absolutely not relevant, better resort to changing definitions to suit your (lost) political agenda.

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Holykitten.3064

Holykitten.3064

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Posted

I’m gonna take one piece from that Verge article that people are skipping over and go facepalm out of this discussion;

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit

“Many companies expect developers to have frequent contact with players, and “since creatives are perceived as being responsible for the way the game is more than customer support, companies are basically tying up their employees and setting them on the railroad tracks for angry people to run over,”

Let’s dissect this.“Many companies expect developers to have frequent contact with players”A-net does, always has done, this isn’t news.

(This is my favourite bit)“since creatives are perceived as being responsible for the way the game is more than customer support” ......Duh. You make the game what it is. Customer Support deals with mainly issues arising from player created problems or interaction within the game itself. CS doesn’t design Gemstore items, or raid wings, or new Fractals, or write the story. You do. So, yes you are responsible as part of your creative team for the way the game is.

“companies are basically tying up their employees and setting them on the railroad tracks for angry people to run over,”

Which is why stuff like AMAs happen, or the new AFCs do. So that these discussions are in controlled environments that are not on your personal Twitter feed. Learn to split your job from your personal social media, and make it Private, if you can’t handle “your space” being “invaded” by fans, that literally just want to talk to you.

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Scud.5067

Scud.5067

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Posted

@thruine.8510 said:

Eh. White male here. And Irish/Italian. With a very Italian surname, and a very Irish look, apparently. Its the ginger and fear of sunlight, no doubt!

And explaining all the time!

No blacks, no Irish, as the signs used to say - and there's a fair bit of latent prejudice even now. We're all drinkers didn't you here! Kiss me I'm a leprechaun! A fiery sex machine, a stallion no doubt! Of course I love pasta!

Once had an interesting conversation with a 'kitten' who didn't know about the rampant prejudice against the Irish.

Denied it off the bat. Didn't fit their narrative, which to be fair, was incoherent at best.

Had to Google them up some search results. Put them in a spin, safe to say! =)

Still, I wouldn't say folks are being racist, just because they assume I'm prone to violence, untrustworthy and probable boozer. Just ill informed.

While there's a lot hate and ignorance in the world, most of the time folks are, at worst, bigoted. I can live with that.

We share, I share, they share - every walks out the door a little confused but assured that they were talking to another human being.

Good stuff!

And to be clear, for the folks sitting at the back of the bus: Racism: Bad. Prejudice: Bad. Drama peddling and virtue signalling: Bad. Bullying: Bad.

To be honest, you'd probably get all that around here. But like I mentioned to a poster before, racism really needs some type of action. Holding you back on a job, burning crosses and all that stuff. At least that's the way I've been taught. We use prejudice around here as a substitute for dislike.

Yeah I hear you. I was working with two folks who were out in Saudi way back when in construction. Was telling me how Jews, Christians, Muslims and the like were getting on, doing their own thing. Sure, their was prejudice, a mentality of, 'Them lot are odd, our lot are better because: reasons' but the interesting part was, according to them, it was not organized, focused hate. You muttered your racial slur/bigoted remark/crappy joke and got on with life.

I realise many folks have been targetted and systematically worn down by all manner of hateful prejudice, and arguable worse, calculated cruelty.

What makes me wonder is, when did it become so.. organised? Did some folks realise that they could wield said prejudice and cruelty in order to gain power? Ok, that's not new, so.. do we jump to the old, 'Social Media!'.

God knows. Somethings changed. I'm of the mind to believe I'm wrong until proven otherwise. And I reckon a fair number of folks, while they talk big, don't have the conviction to carry through - because part of them thinks they could be wrong.

Perhaps that's the crux - all this information bandied around, and the ability to censor dissenting views with a click, has fueled more folks into 'knowing' they're right.

And someone 'knowing' they're right has fueled a fair bit of the nastier stuff since way back when.

Edit: Not focused. Ha!

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nikdik.1934

nikdik.1934

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Posted

@Einlanzer.1627 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

This is the truth. To think the only people capable of evil are straight white males in 2018 is absolutely ridiculous.

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Ace Kenshader.1253

Ace Kenshader.1253

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Posted

@grackle.8043 said:so i'm sure, by now, that ANET is aware of what the repercussions have been so far, for the community. who feels emboldened by this decision, and how.and i'm going to go ahead and voice my concern in a more concrete way.having read this thread- the first ten pages or so anyway, before i got sickened by it- and some commentary on other sites. i'm no longer going to be playing guild wars 2 for the foreseeable future.until ArenaNet does something solid to make the right-wingers feel unwelcome, what they've done with this decision is to make women and minorities feel unwelcome. and unsafe. and the people who hate minorities, and who hate women? are the loudest and most vicious of the cheering crowds right now.i bought this game and the expansion pack when the community was literally one of the biggest selling points. it's never been perfect, but almost overnight it has become overtly hostile as far as i can see.so i'm done. i'm not welcome here, as i can see. so i'm leaving.Mike O'Brien look at the ripple you have just sent out and question whether this is the direction you want this community to go in.

The ironic thing is that so many on the GamerGate right always whine when a game developer gets flack or gets fired for saying/doing very controversial things that they happen to agree with (Subnautica and Simon Chylinski anyone?) It just comes off not as legitimate grievances against a person who acted inappropriately on their twitter account, but more of trying to score political points and get rid of their political enemies from the gaming sphere.

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Dante.1763

Dante.1763

Posted
Posted

@nikdik.1934 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

This is the truth. To think the only people capable of evil are straight white males in 2018 is absolutely ridiculous.

Judging from what ive read from a people here:

Women can do no wrong whatsover, including being sexist, or racist.White people are always evil.Men are the only people who speak when they shouldnt, or interject when they shouldnt.Racism is only racism if its towards black people.

Did i miss anything?

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Holykitten.3064

Holykitten.3064

Posted
Posted

@Dante.1763 said:

@"Shadowmoon.7986" said:
And she learned nothing. Good riddance, at first I felt bad about someone losing their job, but blaming everyone but herself and pulling the sexism card again. I still feel bad for Peter, I feel he was collateral damage. Hopefuly anet vets people better with their social media BEFORE they get hired. I know hine sight is 20/20 but she had questional things on Twitter before she was hired. Peter might still have a job if they held that standard.It reminds me a teacher who got fired for supporting segregation on facebook, and another district hire her and found out about it afterwards and fired her again. The first istance was the teachers fault, the second was district failing to do the proper vetting.

And I am absolutely with her on this.

"Furthermore, ArenaNet was not only aware of her outspoken approach to discussing similar issues on social media but encouraging of it. During a job interview with the company, she had told them she was “loud about these issues on social media and had no intention of shutting up. They reassured me that they ‘admired [my] willingness to speak truth to power.’”"

Huh how fast the tables can turn.

Insulting customers while being racist and misandrist is not "voicing the truth"

Again, Racism against white people is not a thing and voicing frustration about men being condescending and putting them in their place is not misandry.

Yes, it absolutely is. Prejuduce + power is a stipulative redefinition of the word racism to fit a political agenda where white people are always oppressors and minorities are always victims, which is absolutely not how modern society works, and it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise. The word racism has been used for eons to refer to any form of racial prejudice, which non-whites absolutely can and often do possess, and it's every bit as toxic as white racism.

This is the truth. To think the only people capable of evil are straight white males in 2018 is absolutely ridiculous.

Judging from what ive read from a people here:

Women can do no wrong whatsover, including being sexist, or racist.White people are always evil.Men are the only people who speak when they shouldnt, or interject when they shouldnt.Racism is only racism if its towards black people.

Did i miss anything?

Water is wet.

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thruine.8510

thruine.8510

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Posted

@Nik.7485 said:I'm honestly really grateful they have both lost their jobs. I hope they can never find work of this magnitude again. Being ignorant and rude to the people who pay your Bill's is just sickening and sad to say the least. Honestly both pieces of trash needed to be removed from this game. Arenanet made a wise decision I am willing to bet they would have lost more than 30%-50% of their fan base if they had allowed these nasty trash creatures to keep working for them.

So perhaps you would be okay if they just died or were killed? Just wondering how far would you like things to have gone. If rude people should never work again (assuming their training prevents other types of jobs) what use are they. I'm wondering where you anger for them is coming from a I don't remember neither responding to your tweets and its fascinating how people latch on to something they are completely separate from yet have such hostility. Not that everyone goes around shooting garbage but it was curious that they're trash. Now I think if we all responded to rude people in public that way. Could take road rage to even higher levels or is it the same thing?

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Ace Kenshader.1253

Ace Kenshader.1253

Posted
Posted

@Felipe.1807 said:

@"Ace Kenshader.1253" said:I haven't played Guild Wars 2 in years, so my opinions don't hold much weight. But I do believe that ArenaNet handled this unbelievably poorly by firing the two developers and caving into the fringe mobs of kitten and the alt-right. And yes, I am aware that moderate voices were also part of the mix, but they were few and far in between when compared to the fringes.

All this does is make the gaming industry realize that if you value your job, never ever interact with your customer base.

Alt right? What a hell, why you guys have such a hard on for politics kitten? This have nothing to deal with that, is just a dev that acted extremelly poorly...you allways should interact with your customers, but if you cant even take other people opinions and criticism them you probably shouldnt even be in this business in the first place.

So then you were on Subnautica's side when they fired Simon Chylinski for saying controversial stuff on his personal twitter account?

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2018/02/subnautica-dev-fired-over-hateful-statements/

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Deihnyx.6318

Deihnyx.6318

Posted
Posted

@Itzena.8452 said:

@Eternity Theory.5392 said:Good job ArenaNet, exactly what I said would happen last night has happened. Congratulations of getting the community you wanted apparently.

This does not represent everyone on reddit, twitter, or the gw community or anything.Would people PLEASE stop talking in the name of communities?

Ehhhhh i'm just going to go ahead and say it does. Judging by the massive amount of tweets and reddit posts im seeing celebrating Jessica Price being fired. Reddit is already a gigantic cesspool filled with horrible people.

Saying it was the necessary thing to do doesn't mean you like the outcome.Not even everyone who posted on reddit agree with "celebrating it" (I certainly don't)And certainly not everyone agrees with this idiot saying "we can fire everyone". It is absolutely stupid and kind of disgusting attempt to abuse a bad situation.As always, radicalism from one side just brings more radicalism from the other side.

Your arguments amount to "not literally 100% of the community is bad, ergo nothing is wrong and the complaints are fallacious". That's absurd. You don't need 100%, 50%, or even 10% of the community to be problematic for there to be a problem. Given how loud and vicious bigots, Gamergaters (but I repeat myself), and the like can be, encouraging them in
any
form is a bad thing and will have detrimental, outward-spiraling effects on the community.

It's not when the base of the issue is a legitimate issue, which it is in this case.You can sugarcoat it all you want, you will never convince anyone who's not already biased that this employee's behavior was ok.

That there are problems in the community itself is a completely separate issue. Why even mentioning "gamer community", you could say "society" in general, the society in which we live right is a mess thanks to a lot of political tension and the unwillingness of radical extremes to look for middle grounds, so obviously there's always idiots from all communities to make a community look bad.

I never said it was okay. In more than one post here I specifically said that it
wasn't
okay, including the one just before the post you responded to here. You're not arguing with what I'm actually saying, you're engaging in a performative fight with an opponent of your own construction. If you're not going to even pretend to care what I'm actually posting then this conversation is pointless.

The initial post I answered to what after you posted a tweet from a guy pointing out some stupid comment from a guy on reddit. A thread that, unless i'm mistaken, was massively downvoted.If you actually visit reddit and read threads, you'll find out what this community is, as diverse as the people we have in the entire society. So all the shortcuts about this community "massively" celebrating and abusing this situation (something you pretty much said) is something I can definitely disagree to, and am free to voice the disagreement.Just please consider reading some comments:
Where is the mass of people "celebrating" ? Almost all top comments are people saying we shouldn't be happy about what happened.

(Edited for better link)Your argument is literally "Not all redditors". It's funny, but I've seen that sort of deflection before. r/gw2 needs to do something about the beam in their collective eye before Arenanet give up and go "You know what; interacting outside of our own forums
just isn't worth it any more".
Because that is the most likely path this is going, and defending things with "Well, some people felt a bit bad after we brigaded to get two devs fired" isn't really cutting the mustard right now.

It is exactly my argument. And I disagree that it's a deflection.People who are there just for the lolz and the toxic do get banned eventually, for the rest, i'm deeply sorry, but everyone is allowed to have different opinions. For example, people don't have to agree with your last sentence, you don't have to feel bad for two people being fired for misconduct.

And since you came back to it. Again, i'm sorry, but the first responsible for being fired is the dev itself (the one dev, not even blaming the other guy who was simply defending a friend/colleague).

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Deihnyx.6318

Deihnyx.6318

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Posted

@Laivine.9308 said:

@"Twyn.7320" said:This is Deroir's quote: 'But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express
their
character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue options), then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread!'

This is what the people pissed about her being fired missed. He wasn't trying to tell her how to do her job. He was offering an opinion. One that she could take into the offices and say "Hey can we implement this?" or not want to use it and say "Well that's not the direction we are going but I can see your point". Instead she goes down the "oh a man is telling me how to do my job" road. It just bothers me that people seem to want to defend her in this when if you read through his whole post it seems like he is giving a good idea and seeing if it could be used or not and asking for her feedback. Instead she makes it into a sexism issue.

If you want feedback, you ask for it. If you offer feedback without being asked for it, you're an kitten. Period.

Try to imagine how it would be receiving feedback for all possible things, that you are fully aware of, on your everyday life without asking it. You all seem to miss this critical point.

Somehow giving feedback is worse than insulting a player base.Yep.

What a strange world where feedback is not longer possible. Sometimes I wonder if everyone here has a job.

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Raizel.8175

Raizel.8175

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Posted

@Ace Kenshader.1253 said:I haven't played Guild Wars 2 in years, so my opinions don't hold much weight. But I do believe that ArenaNet handled this unbelievably poorly by firing the two developers and caving into the fringe mobs of kitten and the alt-right. And yes, I am aware that moderate voices were also part of the mix, but they were few and far in between when compared to the fringes.

All this does is make the gaming industry realize that if you value your job, never ever interact with your customer base.

I don't know if you've read my comments, but in my opinion, ArenaNets actions are perfectly justified. It's just common sense, really. It's not about someones political views. Hell, I'd be happy if good old Bernie would win the next election.

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@Ash.5274 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:The vast majority of you have a great deal of growing up to do. I just hope society isn't scuppered by the unreal amount of triggering and thin-skinnedness shown in this thread. I also hope none of you ever get on the chopping block for something you wrote on a web site. Losing your job sucks. Your employer not having your back absolutely sucks. It's not a good thing, a good thing would have been the devs apologising, instead they're out of a job with bills to pay. Anyone who says that's a good thing has never left their mother's basement.

So you should expect your employer to have your back when you make that employer look bad on social media? Really?

For what it's worth I completely agree that losing your job is never a good thing, but they lost their jobs as a direct consequence of their own actions. They have no one to blame but themselves, it really is as simple as that.

So you're saying the company you work for controls your
personal
social media presence the minute you include who you work for in your
personal
social media, or write something that happens to be about what you work on? Well, I've decided to enlighten myself and allow people to have a work life and a personal life, two entirely different areas that should almost never encroach on each other, and that what someone says or does on their personal time does not nor ever will reflect on their employer...but I'm in the super minority on this point.

Yes and yes. You are free to post whatever you like on your personal social media accounts but if the content breaks the code of conduct for your company they have every right to remove you from your position. Turns out consequences exist

Interesting how you completely ignored the remainder of my statement only to answer the rhetorical question I posed at the beginning...so let me restate what I said. It's my belief that your employer
does not
have control over what you post on your
personal
social media, regardless of whether or not said employer is listed on your personal social media accounts, and to further clarify, your employer does not need to have your back on what you post, but
neither do they have the right to sensor you
, it's your
personal thoughts and opinions, not the companies
...that's the difference and corporate America(and the World) needs to learn that.

Thats not true at all, twitter isnt personal at all. Its accessible for all people. Furthermore, your points are valid to some degree, there is a line between personal life and work. But if you state in your "personal" social media account that you work for company in the gaming scene you also increase your range drasticly. If she doenst dress herself with being an anet employee she would just be another twitter nobody, nobody would even care to give her any attention at all.

The fact that she willingly connects these two aspects means she also takes a responsibility here. Shes not just a personal twitter account at this moment anymore. This is, like in the comedy scene, or in politics, if you shittalk some of your fans, suppporters or customers (especially in gaming) you gotta pay the consequences.

On topic, i think ANet did the right thing here, proving that they are not just the illusion of teamwork or a "business model" based on the "creating games for the players".

Did ArenaNet set up that Twitter account for JP...if not then it's personal, regardless of what information you place on it...that is the basis of my entire thought process when it comes to these kind of social media issues. Unless the employer provides you that social media account it doesn't matter to me who or what you list on that account, it's your own personal account and the thoughts on that account belong to you and you alone, they do not reflect on your employer, even if you name that employer on your account. Why is that so hard for everyone to understand...are people so psychologically screwed up they can't separate the person from their job anymore? It happens a lot with athletes too, and politicians...I really don't understand humans anymore, it's like they've locked themselves into this tiny little moment in time and are unwilling to learn and change with the times. Sort of like how GW2 maps are snippets of time.

I'm sorry, but this isn't how human society works. Work isn't just a means to earn money. Work also has important social functions such as generating the feeling that you're contributing to the society or the way it forms your identity. Work will always be a part of someones identity and as such, people will always represent their work, no matter if they want or not. If people don't want that, they shouldn't publicly associate themselves with their work. Mrs. Price did though and thus, she also represents her work. It's not anyones fault but her own that she dragged her work into it.

Don't blame it on human society, blame it on human stupidity for not being able to separate work from personal life...my work only applies to me from when I clock in to when I clock out...the rest of the time is my own. Yes, I do act differently at work, I'm not the same person, I do not bring work home with me, I don't even think about once I leave it...it doesn't even define me...I don't even care about it...it's just a means to earn money, if I wanted to contribute to society that would have to be on a public stage like politics or volunteer work. My work has nothing to do with my identity, it's far from my identity...you couldn't guess what I do from knowing me. Ms or Miss Price should be allowed to say anything she wants on her own personal social media, whether she identifies her employer or not, but that's just to 24th Century for most humans to comprehend...one day people will stop caring about what other people do and what others think of them, only then will we as a society be able to evolve beyond petty grievances.

I don't blame it on human society. It's also not human "stupidity". It's how life works. When I have a meeting in office with one of my customers. Do you truly think it reflects well on my company when I meet that customer after work and insult him? That customer will most likely quit being my customer and may even tell other people that I'm not really professional. In this case, Mrs. Price especially took her work over to her spare time. She does represent her company when she's identifying herself with said company and talks about work in-depth. She could have chosen not to - it's her choice and thus, her responsibility. ...and if you truly think that we as society will evolve by ignoring sexistic insults... Chapeau!

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