GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

[foozlesprite.8051]

@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:Just seems like punishment now, as if losing their jobs wasn't enough, public riducule is warranted. Guess stoning is next.

Given some of the absolutely disgusting comments they're facing on Twitter, Reddit, and here, I'm pretty sure stoning would have been happening if people had physical access to them :/ I'm ready for it to blow over too, and I hope members of the community on both sides can take a deep breath and not let it divide us so intensely.

It's like arguing with relatives about politics at holiday dinners, but at least here we can turn off map chat or play in game modes where people don't have as much time to argue over it. Here's hoping it calms down soon.

[Daishi.6027]

I find it funny some people are like "you are giving ammo to trolls, and give reddit the power to influence jobs!"

It's not about the community outrage. If no one did anything wrong it doesn't matter how hard people cry for action, none will be taken.

At the end of the day she was wrong. Her premises were wrong, and her attitude was unjustly rude to the point of bullying community members.

Maybe she has this "I'm a bitch and proud" persona going on, her twitter even says "Salty language. I block often. I won't play demure for you."Okay.She can be salty, fine.She can block often, fine.She doesn't want to be shy, reserved, or modest, fine.However she should still be expected to be a decent person, and show basic respect. You can still have all those things and be neutral, nice, or at least unhostilly dismissive to to someone.

For a person who wants to be respected, regardless of their gender, (or from her SJ narrative, perhaps "respected more" because of her gender,) she needs to learn and apply some level of critical thought. Whenever she is challenged critically for something with no rational defense her defaults seem to be "Go away", "Get off my feed", or "Please leave" type of thing. You can find more examples of this this if you dig through some of her public responses from prior years as well.

"Opinions" no matter how flawed are something people are free to have, but if faulty or flawed we cannot give power to them; to do so would set a much more dangerous president than firing some for being awful.

Peter Fries may be in more of a grey area, but he defended the behavior, and the faulty premises. Saying "I've been in the industry and I've seen the behavior" amounts to little justification when the whole thing blew up over reactions to Deroir with none of that behavior present.

If you don't at least "attempt" (because we are human, we make mistakes, and are all susceptible to the traps of faulty reasoning in general) to think critically, and staunchly refuse to amend yourself when objectively wrong; You should be held responsible for your claims.

Even if it came down to only internal reasons, A-net made the right choice.

[Tolmos.8395]

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Harper.4173 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Harper.4173 said:It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you.

Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn!

This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :)

You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda?Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly.I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in.I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they?As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not.

This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2.

This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community

you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community

Honest question here:

Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic?

It's a pretty age-old argument on the internet: "anyone who disagrees with me is a troll, a bot, or an alt account. It doesn't matter that the majority of you are all telling me I'm wrong, because deep down I know that you are all just 1 person."

Arguing against that point of view is close to impossible. The reality is that a lot of people play the game and never visit forums, at least until something particularly worth talking about comes around or they have a question they just can't answer in game. It happened with ascended gear, "mountgate" and it's going to happen with this. Sure, there may be some folks out there who are dropping $30+ just to make a new account all just to tell Harper they think he's wrong, but if you're looking at it logically: not many people are going to be THAT Invested in an internet argument.

Some would, though; I mean some folks drop $10,000 on pay to win games. Who's to say that there aren't folks running to Walmart and buying armfuls of copies of this game just to try to make 1 person look outnumbered.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I'm a little saddened how often people try to defend JP by saying that all of the counter-harassment she is receiving somehow absolves her of her wrongdoings. Look, that's not how a fight works. If you punch me in the face just once, I'm breaking your ribs. I'm going to hit you until you stop moving, and I will be fully justified in doing so. When JP went against a random person for no good reason, she did so in a way that insults every single man that plays this game. Price picked a fight with an entire crowd, and the entire crowd fought back.

---

@"Harper.4173" said:I really don't see it as gray as you do. Customers pay bills. Employees are a resource. One is far more valuable than the other in my opinion.And yeah - that might have been love but love doesn't pay bills. Going down for someone's ideological rants doesn't seem like a good option no matter how you cut it.

An apology can be prompt - but sincere? In this day and age? And in this industry? Let's be real for a second. I can type the most sincere apology and not mean a word. Even in video form it can be cut and edited and spiced up to seem like the real deal.It was clear from her initial stance she wasn't the type that would "mean" a sincere apology - not that she would issue one - not that it would be believed if she did.People like her are so ideologically possessed and so convinced of their own grandeur and moral superiority that an apology would be utterly worthless.

I still would not have forgiven her.

I think you've misunderstood me. I don't think turning on the customers is ever a good idea. At least not on this scale. I've thrown out the occasional unruly patron, but nothing so bold as what Aubrey Sitterson does. I remain surprised, largely because that is what keeps happening. We have people like Maxine Waters effectively using the social contract to declare war. I mean, yes it is a war against common sense, but nonetheless war were declared.

If your contention is that a sincere apology is impossible... well that is all after the fact. You're right in saying that she was the kind of person who would never apologize. But what if she was? By sincere, I mean in act, not in word. What if she was legitimately wrong and sorry for her actions? Not just sorry for getting caught, but sorry for what she had done? It would've resolved this controversy before it reached fustercluck levels.

[TheBravery.9615]

I have no remorse for the firings but I just want to make an observation.

Just googling Jessica price is bringing up tons of articles about how she got fired. This is a long term damaging effect to her future employment.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Harper.4173 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Harper.4173 said:It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you.

Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn!

This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :)

You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda?Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly.I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in.I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they?As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not.

This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2.

This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community

you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community

Honest question here:

Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic?

It's a pretty age-old argument on the internet: "anyone who disagrees with me is a troll, a bot, or an alt account. It doesn't matter that the majority of you are all telling me I'm wrong, because deep down I know that you are all just 1 person."

Arguing against that point of view is close to impossible. The reality is that a lot of people play the game and never visit forums, at least until something particularly worth talking about comes around or they have a question they just can't answer in game. It happened with ascended gear, "mountgate" and it's going to happen with this. Sure, there may be some folks out there who are dropping $30+ just to make a new account all just to tell Harper they think he's wrong, but if you're looking at it logically: not many people are going to be THAT Invested in an internet argument.

Some would, though; I mean some folks drop $10,000 on pay to win games. Who's to say that there aren't folks running to Walmart and buying armfuls of copies of this game just to try to make 1 person look outnumbered.

Sock puppeting is a surprisingly common tactic. A lot of players own multiple accounts for multi-boxing and for multiple dailies, and there are those who would create new accounts just to chime in and say that somebody else is wrong.

There are some pretty unstable people on the internet. The world wide web draws in the attention from every dark corner of the Earth. All of the most fringe elements are going to come out. Including people who are shameless, hyper-combative, hyper-obsessed, with poor money management skills and limitless free time. The average person wouldn't bother to sock puppet, but we're dealing with neurosis here.

[Yamazuki.6073]

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@White Dragon.5429 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

Public social media posts are not different than your actions taken out in public places. Public Twitter posts=/=your private and secure home where jokes are kept between friends and families. People have always been judged by how they are presented in public places, there's no reason that needs to be changed. If you want to speak poorly of people and face zero consequences, then keep it in a private setting among your friends and family, no need to take out the megaphone and then complain when the consequences come at you.

There is zero reason for her response, and there is zero reason why any sort of business needs to tolerate sexism either, just because she's a female doesn't mean it's okay to hate on the opposite gender when the guy did nothing wrong, and had even complimented her not long before that.

[Dark Light Shariu.3792]

With all that, people seem to forget she passively insulted a community member. Believe it or not, even "general statements" with foul language that obviously refer to one specific person or reply is still an insult. No (decent) company in this world as big as ANet accepts their employees insulting customers, especially if there was no reason to not handle the matter like a professional.Decades of experience are no free ticket for unprofessional conduct.

[Harper.4173]

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

4. It was not a lynching - I don't think you know what those are. People didn't hurt her, nobody did anything to her. The community got outraged at the situation and decided to threaten to vote with their wallet. The company had to make a choice. The outraged paying customers or the misbehaving developers. The choice was obvious.
5. "In my opinion, the reaction of the community and corporate response was more damaging to their corporate image than anything said on twitter." - and in mine anything short of firing the two would have ended up with me no longer supporting Anet financially no matter what.
6. "At worst, JP should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours." - nor does the community need to keep paying for GW2 if Anet decided to keep such an employee on board. She can do her counselling and discuss her frustration while the community took their money elsewhere. Again- Anet is not a psych hospital where people get their frustrations fixed - it's a FOR PROFIT COMPANY.
7. "The community made this happen. I have seen a lot of outrageous behaviour in the gaming community over the last 10 years, but I have never been so utterly dismayed as I have been this week. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. " This is not about good and evil/ right or wrong. This is about a
   single
   person's decision to upset a large group of people that had a lot of leverage. It was the worst call she could make and she deserves what she got. I don't care if she was frustrated or not - you make mistakes this big you deserve to get burned. If she had been smart she'd have controlled herself. The world doesn't owe her anything - she made a mistake and she got what she wanted. You don't fight paying customers.
8. "this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone." - what I choose to spend my money on most certainly IS my business. I can speak my mind - if the company cares they care. If they don't they don't. It's not the first time the community has been outspoken.

I like how people who already have spent their money on a product don't know that "I'm not supporting them in financial way" card is already obsolete. GW2 is a game that you buy once, buy expansion 1, buy expansion 2. You can buy gems for real money to support, but why would I pay for gems if I can craft gear to sell in BLTC to gain in-game money which I then trade into gems and use the gems.

They already have our money. There is no "I am not financially supporting them" anymore, unless you really want to spend your money on those gems.

@"Harper.4173" said:

11. Why did she make those posts? Doesn't she realize that such opinions can harm her at work or in any other circumstance? If you're going to hold or have controversial views do it anonymously unless you are prepared to face the possible consequences of those views. But don't act all surprised when those things come around and bite you.

This can work in two ways as well, you know. Just like her, it's possibility that you might probably face some consequences when your anonymous identity is suddenly cracked (and todays internet doesn't always need even that if the need arises). Same applies to anyone.

@"Harper.4173" said:

12. "The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of JP without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward. " - Their struggle is on them alone. They decided to make an enemy out of something you shouldn't make an enemy of. You don't get to make these kinds of mistakes and get a free pass.

Enemy - in this case, being internet people who take lots of thing to their heart and think they're the "police" in the industry, then possibly some heart burned players.

@"Harper.4173" said:

13. "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall." - perhaps next times devs will be less keen on making enemies of the community. I mean - if you don't like the community that's fine. Not everyone likes their job or the people they work for ( the people that buy their product) - but it's generally good business that if that is the case
    you keep it to yourself
    - or you quit and then talk as much as you want when those people can no longer touch you.

If community get so heart burned for some indecency, do they know why that happens? People today are sensitive and even words can be fatal to some, so no wonder why people tends to get angry. Bad words were not that big of an issue before GG happened and evolved, or before Reddit/Poorchan became the internet enforcers.

@"Harper.4173" said:

14. "Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years." - Why should I do that when the human in question didn't even bother to do half of it?

Why should anyone think of this little thing, then? I don't have to consider your feelings when you don't consider that destroying someones career is "not a big deal". It's a two-way street.

@"Harper.4173" said:

15. "Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion." - this was not an issue of privacy. A breach of privacy would have been in effect if someone had hacked her PRIVATE data. She posted this on a
    public platform
    .

It may not have been about privacy, but some human decency would be in order on both sides. I express my thoughts on a platform and someone comes to disagree with me and give me countering opinion how this and that could be done is not really helpful (especially if target is professional in their own job).

It's my writing, my point of view, I don't need to take your opinion about it into consideration, but I can throw some dirt on you for "playing professional writer" to me. Why? Being all goody-shoes is not healthy. It only gives an image of easily exploitative mindset and gets you more trouble than good.

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.

1. Having spent money already doesn't mean it's over and done. GW2 is a game as a service. Supporting them means buying gems. Supporting them means buying the next expansion. Supporting them means not giving the game negative PR. Just because I've given my money so far doesn't mean I will continue to do it if I dislike the situation. And trust me - they do want my money. I get what you're saying but no - there are people who drop a LOT of money on gems. And those people support the game.They already have some of my money - but they can have more if I enjoy my time here and they know it

2. "This can work in two ways as well, you know. Just like her, it's possibility that you might probably face some consequences when your anonymous identity is suddenly cracked (and todays internet doesn't always need even that if the need arises). Same applies to anyone." - so then if your views are so bad you can't handle their consequences don't post them. Even in an anonymous way. Just keep them to yourself - or take a chance and risk it. Still it was her choice.

3. "Enemy - in this case, being internet people who take lots of thing to their heart and think they're the "police" in the industry, then possibly some heart burned players." - you work in this industry - you know how volatile people get. It's not the first community driven fiasco - it won't be the last.

4. "If community get so heart burned for some indecency, do they know why that happens? People today are sensitive and even words can be fatal to some, so no wonder why people tends to get angry. Bad words were not that big of an issue before GG happened and evolved, or before Reddit/Poorchan became the internet enforcers." - so keep quiet if your job depends on people that are too sensitive. Or risk it. Everyone can become internet enforcers now - not just the "gaming journalist sites".

5. "Why should anyone think of this little thing, then? I don't have to consider your feelings when you don't consider that destroying someones career is "not a big deal". It's a two-way street." - People can do whatever they want. I'm not here to consider what consequences her actions might have for her. This little thing matters because even if you don't consider my feelings the company does because I'm a paying customer. This has nothing to do with her considering anything. She made her point clear and the community reacted.

6. "It may not have been about privacy, but some human decency would be in order on both sides. I express my thoughts on a platform and someone comes to disagree with me and give me countering opinion how this and that could be done is not really helpful (especially if target is professional in their own job).

It's my writing, my point of view, I don't need to take your opinion about it into consideration, but I can throw some dirt on you for "playing professional writer" to me. Why? Being all goody-shoes is not healthy. It only gives an image of easily exploitative mindset and gets you more trouble than good."

• Decency is given when it is warranted. She gave none and deserves none. Again the "professional" argument. If you want to express your opinion and not have non professional people respond then do so in an professional only community. A countering opinion is not helpful? Why? How can you gauge that?Your writing and your point of view is posted for all to see on a platform where all can comment - why complain when it happens? Why not use a different platform if you can't handle it?7."But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract." - does it matter? I'm pretty sure whatever she signed had something along the lines of "don't piss off the entire community" somewhere.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@TheBravery.9615 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it.

What?!Is that how it works on NA?

United states, where ANET is headquartered. Unless they have a legally binding employment contract or limited by state statute / federal law, this is how most employers operate in

most

states.

Burden of proof for wrongful termination suits fall on the employer in which arenanet can just show the twitter dialogue.

Even then, firings isn't really a cut and paste thing. There's a lot of ways to how things can be handled:

(1): An employer can just lie about your record on the off chance that you'll never take them to court.(2): An employer can make extremely stringent rules that everyone will break, then selectively enforce those rules.(3): An employer can put a "no qualification" clause in their contract so they won't need to fire you.(4): An employer can put a binding arbitration in their contract, and just load their own council with cronies that will always back them.(5):An employer can just make you sign contracts annually and simply not renew your contract next period.(6): An employer can just transfer you and dump all of the worst work possible in an attempt to get you to quit.

And so on. There are costs and benefits to these systems. As a company, you don't want to jump through a million legal loopholes and pay oodles of money to fire that one employee who became toxic and incompetent after picking up a debilitating drug habit. I hear that with some regulatory committees it can cost nearly $100,000 just to fire someone in fees alone. On the other hand, as a worker you don't want to have a company throw you out on the silliest of whims and ruin your entire career because of it.

There's a lot of give and take. I'm a fan of the regularly renewed contract system, because then for both worker and employee it gives you a good amount of time to plan ahead, patch up problems when they arise without going nuclear, and also guarantees a certain level of job security for the time being. Of course, once you reach a certain level of skill and specialization, your job security is insured by there being nobody to replace you and being crucial to the entire operation as a whole.

[Harper.4173]

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@White Dragon.5429 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

EDIT: But to be honest, I think it was only because target was somewhat respected and "looked up to" content creator who is in ANets partnership(?) program and internet didn't like him being talked in such manner. I guess if JP would've said that what she did to someone else, like some common rabble in community, this wouldn't have happened.

How is this so hard to follow or understand?Dev does X - community doesn't like it - dev insults community - community is displeased. Community gives money to company. Company wants money. Company dismisses dev to please community.The community made a "fuzz" because guess what - she decided to teach them what's what and insult them. Why would you do that?

Also why would you make an account for just this particular topic? You've never posted anything else on these forums. Why are you here now?

[Harper.4173]

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@White Dragon.5429 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

True. But if I go to JP's case, why didn't her previous "infractions" result in this outcome? Probably because internet didn't make a fuzz about those (as far as I know).

Because nobody knew it happened. Why is that an argument? It's like you make a mistake, your employer doesn't know it so he doesn't punish you. Later it gets out and you get your kitten handed to you. Difficult concept?

Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of **** they can and destroy you. That's how internet works. There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Are you seriously implying he sicced his followers on her? Because this is some conspiracy kitten.

I'm not a fan of digging into somebody's past just to get them fired, but that's not a free pass to be an absolute kitten to anybody.

And yes, those things do go unnoticed when out of your 10k followers only 40 care enough to actually engage you and of those 40 at least 39 of them are safely inside the same filter bubble as you

Let me translate my first quote:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:Trust me. These things won't go unnoticed in todays internet. If someone doesn't like you, they will dig up every piece of *

they can and destroy you. That's how internet works.This is what applies to the actual community. Including random

hats in Reddit/Poorchan/Everyone-else who just like to think that the train looks fun. This was not saying that this respected content creator sent his followers after JP. No. I doubt that, greatly.

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:There is a chance that because her target was who he is, was the actual reason for letting her go. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.This means: MO didn't like her saying bad things to this respected content creator. But if there has been other situations like this that were known within the company, why didn't she get booted before? Instead, now that the target was who he is, MO let her go. And because Fries wanted to stand with her, he got a boot as well.

This is not rocket science or some illuminati theory, or is it?

Most people didn't even know who Deroir was before she went nuclear on him. Including JP apparently. Conversely most players didn't know about her sordid Twitter history until she drew all this attention to herself.

That wasn't the chans, reddit, or anyone else. That was JP. And PF unfortunately made his stand on sinking sand.

So "respected and looked up to" content creator was more or less a nobody (unless that was reference to Jebro or Inks) who actually just wanted to butt in and "play professional" on her. Well played. And snowball just got bigger and oops..

How exactly is posting on a platform you are allowed to post on "playing professional?"Am I to understand ANY person who has ANY opinion in ANY field that they're not working in or have been highly educated/specialized is considered "butting in"? Is it harassment if you don't have a degree in a topic but still talk about it?

Is a person in the wrong for saying something on a topic they're not formally educated in? I work with that every day - every day people have opinions, ideas, comments about things they have absolutely no clue about and still I don't spaz out at them. That's called self-control.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@Zaklex.6308 said:

@White Dragon.5429 said:

@ponytheguardian.7439 said:

@"Harper.4173" said:

17. "The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved." - maybe employees should be more aware of these issues and try to clarify things better before they sign contracts.

But no-one has seen what kind of terms ArenaNet has in place for their employees who have signed the contract.While we can't see exactly what is on their contract, it is common practice for someone who customers may see as a "face of the company" to be required to put forth a good appearance even while not on duty. If you are a known, recognizable employee, all actions in a public space can be interpreted by customers (whether or not they should) to be actions of the company, and so you must act accordingly.

That being said, it is understandable for someone to lose their calm while under stress. I would expect some kind of warning and expectation of public apology, followed by termination if the employee refuses.

This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

Public

social media posts are not different than your actions taken out in public places. Public Twitter posts=/=your private and secure home where jokes are kept between friends and families. People have always been judged by how they are presented in public places, there's no reason that needs to be changed. If you want to speak poorly of people and face zero consequences, then keep it in a private setting among your friends and family, no need to take out the megaphone and then complain when the consequences come at you.

There is zero reason for her response, and the is zero reason why any sort of business needs to tolerate sexism either, just because she's a female doesn't mean it's okay to hate on the opposite gender when the guy did nothing wrong, and had even complimented her not long before that.

You know, back when I worked at a bank, they had a certain way of phrasing it. Of course, it was all surrounded with cooperate newspeak and a bunch generic praise, but ultimately the message was this:

The job doesn't start when you punch the clock. The job starts when you put on the uniform. If you are out in the world, the moment you wear our emblem, you represent us. If somebody sees you and recognizing you as an employee of our company, then you represent us.

It's really that simple. When JP puts Arenanet in her profile, talks about her work at Arenanet, participates in Arenanet functions, and received feedback about GW2 and her conduct in it, she's representing Arenanet. I mean, if she had no indication in her social media that she worked there and then somebody else doxxed her and revealed that she worked at Anet, you would have a case for the segregation between personal and corporate communication. But that is not what happened.

[Harper.4173]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it.

What?!Is that how it works on NA?

@Zaklex.6308 said:This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

Is this that people fail to grasp and the only problem I see in all this mess.

Except corporate America is America and there'll be no denying it. That aside - has nobody else noticed the ponytheguardian account is just a troll that pushes an agenda?

[Burden.9724]

It's really that simple. When JP puts Arenanet in her profile, talks about her work at Arenanet, participates in Arenanet functions, and received feedback about GW2 and her conduct in it, she's representing Arenanet. I mean, if she had no indication in her social media that she worked there and then somebody else doxxed her and revealed that she worked at Anet, you would have a case for the segregation between personal and corporate communication. But that is not what happened.

I agree wit this little statement. It's the same with Rosanne, she went to Twitter, said some stuff that the ABC Group didn't like, so they fired her. Also, because of this incident I have deleted my Facebook account. I won't want to be seen saying something that others might fight offensive, or drive away clients. This situation has just made posters of social media accountable for their actions.

[Harper.4173]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm a little saddened how often people try to defend JP by saying that all of the counter-harassment she is receiving somehow absolves her of her wrongdoings. Look, that's not how a fight works. If you punch me in the face just once, I'm breaking your ribs. I'm going to hit you until you stop moving, and I will be fully justified in doing so. When JP went against a random person for no good reason, she did so in a way that insults every single man that plays this game. Price picked a fight with an entire crowd, and the entire crowd fought back.

---

@"Harper.4173" said:I really don't see it as gray as you do. Customers pay bills. Employees are a resource. One is far more valuable than the other in my opinion.And yeah - that might have been love but love doesn't pay bills. Going down for someone's ideological rants doesn't seem like a good option no matter how you cut it.

An apology can be prompt - but sincere? In this day and age? And in this industry? Let's be real for a second. I can type the most sincere apology and not mean a word. Even in video form it can be cut and edited and spiced up to seem like the real deal.It was clear from her initial stance she wasn't the type that would "mean" a sincere apology - not that she would issue one - not that it would be believed if she did.People like her are so ideologically possessed and so convinced of their own grandeur and moral superiority that an apology would be utterly worthless.

I still would not have forgiven her.

I think you've misunderstood me. I don't think turning on the customers is ever a good idea. At least not on this scale. I've thrown out the occasional unruly patron, but nothing so bold as what Aubrey Sitterson does. I remain surprised, largely because that is what keeps happening. We have people like Maxine Waters effectively using the social contract to declare war. I mean, yes it is a war against common sense, but nonetheless war were declared.

If your contention is that a sincere apology is impossible... well that is all after the fact. You're right in saying that she was the kind of person who would never apologize. But what if she was? By sincere, I mean in act, not in word. What if she was legitimately wrong and sorry for her actions? Not just sorry for getting caught, but sorry for what she had done? It would've resolved this controversy before it reached fustercluck levels.

Your introduction - I 100% agree. Mess with something big - get torn apart.I have no idea who Maxine Waters is and these US-focused examples just end up confusing me.As far as apologies go? Even if she did it before this happened it would have no value to me. There are no sincere apologies coming from people whose job depend on a good relationship with the entity they are apologizing to. It's just trying to save your skin.

[Burden.9724]

There are no sincere apologies coming from people whose job depend on a good relationship with the entity they are apologizing to. It's just trying to save your skin.

LOL

[Harper.4173]

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Harper.4173 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Harper.4173 said:It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you.

Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn!

This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :)

You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda?Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly.I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in.I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they?As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not.

This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2.

This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community

you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community

Honest question here:

Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic?

It's a pretty age-old argument on the internet: "anyone who disagrees with me is a troll, a bot, or an alt account. It doesn't matter that the majority of you are all telling me I'm wrong, because deep down I know that you are all just 1 person."

Arguing against that point of view is close to impossible. The reality is that a lot of people play the game and never visit forums, at least until something particularly worth talking about comes around or they have a question they just can't answer in game. It happened with ascended gear, "mountgate" and it's going to happen with this. Sure, there may be some folks out there who are dropping $30+ just to make a new account all just to tell Harper they think he's wrong, but if you're looking at it logically: not many people are going to be THAT Invested in an internet argument.

Some would, though; I mean some folks drop $10,000 on pay to win games. Who's to say that there aren't folks running to Walmart and buying armfuls of copies of this game just to try to make 1 person look outnumbered.

Have you looked at the accounts? Or how the thread is going?Most people are not defending her - those that are are mostly accounts that have never posted before. Doesn't that seem suspicious to you? Doesn't it seem a bit odd?I honestly don't believe it's many people. Only a couple who are stubborn and convinced enough to do it multiple times over.Like I said - I welcome their opinions - can they prove they're part of this community though?

[ReaverKane.7598]

@"lordhelmos.7623" said:Just to point out,

As a game company the reality of the situation is that the playerbase are your stakeholders. In any C-Corporation transparency to stakeholders is one of the key elements to success. It would be unfortunate if this situation created an even larger rift between the developers and the playerbase. I think miscommunication, lack of communication, or general "the don't make the game so they are not entitled to an opinion" ideology are some of the largest problems with Gw2.

If you look back at the situation and assess the comments made by the developers. Aside from battle of the sexes (which had no reason to be brought up in the conversation with Deroir by JP), both JP and Mr. Fries took the mentality of "we are devs and you are just players so listen to us when we say you don't know what you are talking about."

In Deroir's follow up Twitch comments he noted that "I come from a long background of academia and you should not need credentials to have an opinion or cordial conversation with someone." This man is not only incredibly mature but also enlightened and absolutely right. During various occasions over the course of the twitter conversation both JP and Fries called out that they were better than players simply because they were developers and players were players.

1.) On multiple occasions JP got on her high horse and denounced several plays as being fantasy fiction writers while she was a professional, generally indicated that they were not credentialed to have a say in how things should be done. This is incredibly shallow thinking.

2.) Fries, while more modest, at one point compared himself to a physicist and degraded other players as laymen who didn't know what was going on in game development.

While I understand that game development is normally a pressure cooking environment with impossible deadlines and mass burnout, the type of I would go as far to say as "childish and immature thinking" that revolves around the concept that just because someone doesn't have the experience or credentials you do their opinion should be immediately dismissed is asinine and doesn't belong in any conversation. Because of this, I generally agree with the terminations.

What worries me is that you have this exact same viewpoint carried by two completely different developers. It begs the question, is this what they think about the playerbase? Is there an environment behind closed doors that compels or supports that kind of rationale.

That to me is an unsurvivable stance because players come from all walks of life and are stakeholders that are entitled to communication because they pay your bills and buy your product. The combined knowledge of the playerbase as a community far surpasses the 400 or so people in ANET when compared side by side for the same reason on why opensource coding works.

If I were in a management position I would be doing some serious corporate restructuring right now to smite any remnant of that kind of mentality or thinking because at the end of the day the customer needs to be valued. I think conveying that feeling to players is ANETS next biggest challenge.

It is difficult to right the ship, but I have seen it done on two occasions:

1.) Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn: The president of the company came out with full transparency to the players and committed to rebuilding the entire game from the ground up. The players were given insight into the entire development process and became very involved. To this day FF:Online's release went from a total and inital failure that almost killed the brand to one of the most populated and successful MMORPGs on the market, greatly surpassing Gw2 (especially overseas). You can't take the hint that honesty pays here? That the more transparent you are with the playerbase the better things are?

2.) Paladins Champions of the Realm: A few months back a "cards unbound" update came out that attempted to change the game to the failed starwars battlefront star cards model. The game went pay2win. Many developers vocalized their unhappiness with the changes, which was spearheaded by someone very high up in management. Eventually the outcry was so bad that the developers and company rebelled internally and booted the guy behind cards unbound out. They committed to restructure the game and have open transparency to their community using DEVSPEAK every week on twitch. When they make balance chances they provide metrics and winrates for specific champions being changed and include why the changes are happening in very detailed live talks. While still in the shadow of being an "overwatch clone" Paladins is highly successful, released on all major consoles, and is regularly seen in the top 10 most played games on steam. Same as above, honesty and communication breeds positive results.

So this is where ANET is now. The focus needs to be on re-establishing proper communication with players. To do this you need metrics and while you can't share all your metrics with players (to prevent manipulation) you need to firmly instill on your community that they exist and there is some rationale for the changes. We are stakeholders and we want to know why things change or what direction the game is headed. Our time and money is an investment and we lose interest fast. I've never once felt like ANET ever had a period of good communication with players.

There's no metrics shared with us, no insight into the testing process, no insight into critical operations that shape the game. Now we discover multiple developers with very immature mindsets. The question is how many more of these kind of developers are there, is this kind of behavior somehow promoted, and what is being done to stop it? Two developers have effectively villainized the playerbase, the people who pay you, the people who fund your entire operation. I really hope the CEO understands how serious this is.

While you have slanted Kotaku articles talking about "Reddit having a hand on developers throats and can get rid of them whenever they want." Are you really that surprised that this is the outcome? Players are the stakeholders and yes they can influence operations because we pay the bills. If players wanted to, they can leave the game entirely and kill it completely. Look at the graveyard of dead online games, Battleborn... Gigantic...Marvel Heroes do you really want to be one of those?

So there is a situation now where the relationship with player stakeholders is damaged. What is going to be done about it? Where is the remediation plan to assure us that this kind of toxic corporate culture in which people withe mindsets of JP and Fries were able to thrive is being burned to ash in a flash fire?

I stopped following this thread because right now, it's just mostly people talking out of their behinds, either trying to justify open hostility rudeness and a person pretty much admitting they've been "faking" respect towards the community because they're paid to do so, or just trying to beat a dead horse, over a topic that's been debated ad nauseum, and resulted in probably harsher than required punishment, especially for Peter Fries.

But i was bored and checked a few random posts, and encountered this. This is a great post that deserves more attention, as it speaks to what's really needed in the future for Arena Net. More openness and transparency.

I might be unfair in saying this, but if Arena Net, as a company didn't have such a cryptic, miss-matched approach to communication, sometimes promoting AMAs and whatever, in a seemingly attempt at transparency, and at others simply remitting to silence for weeks, or leaving cryptic and, some times empty or dubious replies.Also, a new, better way of explaining their reasoning for balance (which is a pain point of the game), that allows us, as an interested party in the continuation of the game, provide feedback, i mean, it's the hive-mind of the community that finds the flaws in the builds that leads to the requirement of changes for better balance, so maybe relying a bit more on our feedback, and allowing us to do so, without having to guess why A was changed, and B was nerfed, might be a better way forward than keeping to the, arguably less effective, current approach.

[thruine.8510]

@Harper.4173 said:

Another new account... stuff

Oh, so an amateur forum posters shouldn't engage with professional forum posters? I see, lets practice the same thing we had like JP did. It's this kind of hypocritical crap that pushes people to the extremes. Go look at Peter's tweets. There's nothing to be fired from in them at all. Painting him with the same brush as JP, just as MO did, is caving to mob mentality. Its cowardly. It seems its not going to settle down now that JP is loose to spin the story has she likes now that a number of YouTubers have picked it up and started spreading it further. Everyone involved deserved some punishment for unprofessional actions and that includes ArenaNet and MO.

[Ashen.2907]

@morrolan.9608 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

I would rather have not seen either fired, but whatever punishment was chosen needed to be applied to both in order to reduce the threat of a wrongful termination (based on gender) suit.

IMO thats not a good reason for firing someone, especially someone that has been a loyal and highly regarded dev for 12 years, and he could issue a wrongful termination suit.

He would be hard pressed to successfully argue wrongful termination for the same reason she might. Applying disciplinary action equally can be a solid defense against such suits.

We might think that this is not a good reasoning for his dismissal, but it is all but necessary in today's lawsuit prone culture.

[Ashen.2907]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@TheBravery.9615 said:Termination can apply for any or no reason, get over it.

What?!Is that how it works on NA?

@Zaklex.6308 said:This not only needs to change, it must change and if we have to legislate it then that's the solution. Corporate America needs to be brought to heel and learn that they can not and will not be allowed to control what employees say on their own personal social media accounts.

Is this that people fail to grasp and the only problem I see in all this mess.

In the US, generally, employment is a contract between two parties that either can dissolve at will. Some individual states may have specific limitations on involuntary termination of employment, but usually as long as the termination is not based on protected traits such as gender, race, etc all is fine.

Imagine it being turned around. Should an employer be allowed to force an employee to remain when she desires to leave?

[thruine.8510]

@Gomes.5643 said:The only one I feel bad for is Peter Fries. His comments werent really unpolite or agressive so I didnt see a reason to give him the same punishment here. But I dont know what happened internally. It would be a really bad joke if the reason why went to defend price in first place (a woman beeing threaded unfairly) actually leaded to his downfall. Because Anet/Mike O´Brian didnt want to be pictured as sexist/ threating women unfairly - so the man involved had also to go ...........

Exactly how I feel and think it looks. Its just like when a DA is found guilty in the handling of cases it brings all the other cases into question he's handled. Because they didn't receive separate punishments it makes it seem it was more driven by the mob than by JP's actual tweets. Stuff that existed prior to this incident by the way which makes you wonder what's the deal here? You factor in Reddit and all that crazy then it starts to paint a picture. Does MO disagree with what she said or that what she said had so much disagreement. If he had given Peter a separate punishment then you can safely say the mob didn't have anything to do with it and focus solely on JP and why this behavior online was allowed or why was she even hired. All it seems Peter knows is a friend started getting, from her standpoint, sexist remarks. Its like he just saw her response without seeing what prompted the response. Like he was sitting in his backyard having a beer scanning twitter and saw hey, someone's harassing JP again. Sure he couldn't have looked deeper into before responding but we've seen from this incident most do not.

[Yoshiiro.5174]

Hopefully the community doesn't abusive the power of say and start targeting every issues regarding the dev, i hope Anet will be swifter in dealling with these kind of things before more ppl get fired.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:

@Harper.4173 said:

@Tolmos.8395 said:

@Harper.4173 said:It's extremely upsetting to see how willing people are to make new accounts and post only to push an agenda. Still - I will respond to you.

Sweet, so we're now comparing forum ages and post histories to see who is most worthy of posting? You talk big for someone whose help upvote count is only in the mid-200s, greenhorn!

This is the forum equivalent to "lol noob isn't even max level. Her opinion is moot". I have a better idea: how about we not try to be the elitist little kitten the world thinks all gamers are, and just have a civilized discussion WITHOUT the e-kitten comparing. :)

You haven't noticed the amount of posters that weren't here before and came here just to push an agenda?Add them in game - look up their AP score. You'll find some fun things. There's a clear difference between me and them. Calling me greenhorn is silly. You are doing it to prove a point but still - it's silly.I've been with this game since release, with the franchise since 2008. I've posted suggestions back in the day when they took suggestions for GW2. I've spent more hours on the old forums than anyone should have. There are no records of that anymore. I've got 6k hours on the game and until this year I rarely skipped a day without logging in.I can prove this to you any way you want. Can they?As much as you'd like to believe it's not so - I'm not extreme in my views - but you can't just hop on here without ever playing the game, without ever posting before and start going "I'm part of the community and this and that". You're not.

This is not about being elitist. This is about people infiltrating the forums and trying to seem like they are part of a community they care about when in truth they're just ideologues who came here to fight for their cause and care nothing for GW2.

This is a civilized discussion regarding the GW2 game and the developers/company making it. It is not a political discussion on its own. These are the forums for a GAME. If you want to come here and have your voice heard as part of the community

you should have some - at least a shred of proof you are part of that community

Honest question here:

Do you think that people are buying copies of the game, supporting ANet financially, just to comment on this topic?

It's a pretty age-old argument on the internet: "anyone who disagrees with me is a troll, a bot, or an alt account. It doesn't matter that the majority of you are all telling me I'm wrong, because deep down I know that you are all just 1 person."

Arguing against that point of view is close to impossible. The reality is that a lot of people play the game and never visit forums, at least until something particularly worth talking about comes around or they have a question they just can't answer in game. It happened with ascended gear, "mountgate" and it's going to happen with this. Sure, there may be some folks out there who are dropping $30+ just to make a new account all just to tell Harper they think he's wrong, but if you're looking at it logically: not many people are going to be THAT Invested in an internet argument.

Some would, though; I mean some folks drop $10,000 on pay to win games. Who's to say that there aren't folks running to Walmart and buying armfuls of copies of this game just to try to make 1 person look outnumbered.

Sock puppeting is a surprisingly common tactic. A lot of players own multiple accounts for multi-boxing and for multiple dailies, and there are those who would create new accounts just to chime in and say that somebody else is wrong.

There are some pretty unstable people on the internet. The world wide web draws in the attention from every dark corner of the Earth. All of the most fringe elements are going to come out. Including people who are shameless, hyper-combative, hyper-obsessed, with poor money management skills and limitless free time. The average person wouldn't bother to sock puppet, but we're dealing with neurosis here.

This, right here. Nailed it.

I'm not saying every newer poster is a sock puppet. Big drama brings everyone out of the woodwork. But when the more radical devils advocates tend to all be newer forum posters... I can't help but notice.

And honestly even if you are here just to give your .02 cents, you'd lend more to yourself as a commentator to the situation if it didn't appear you're literally only here to stir the pot over the latest debacle.