GW 2 Devs/Playerbase Twitter Discussion

Mysty Meadows.1425 · July 9, 2018

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
@morrolan.9608 said:
@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:She was wearing ANet’s emblem when she tagged her account as an ANet dev and posted a discussion about her work. At that point she was repping ANet and anything she said reflects on them also. Just like anything you say while at work reflects on your employee. She cursed at and insulted customers of her job while repping ANet and she got the same punishment as you would get if you cursed and insulted customers while repping your job.

Despite what many people have said this is not a given, I've seen plenty of examples of rude customer service not even being punished let alone sacked.

It would depend on exactly what happened. In this case she refused to take “I apologize” (twice) and “I’ll go away” as an answer and let the situation end. Instead several hours later

after

he apologizes and leaves she posts again and further insults the guy. (Then goes on to curse another guy, sneer at male “hurt manfeels” (an extremely sexist remark putting down men’s feelings) and tell everyone who can read her twitter that she doesn’t have to pretend to like her customers, implying that she dislikes the gw2 community).

If she had stopped with her first response then I very much doubt she would have lost her job, but she had to continue to sound off and offend over a period of hours while posting under a tag proclaiming her to be an ANet dev. It wasn’t a one time post of frustration but several posts over hours. The extended time period means she had lots of opportunity to cool off and reconsider, but she didn’t. Continuing after she had “won” and gotten an apology was bullying, not frustration.

One thing to consider is we saw this occurence, a single event. But how many has she been forced to endure at work, at home online, eventually you hit tilt, and redline. She said as much when she said "..not in my space not here". The more I think on this, the more I have come to realize, the entire matter was over reacted to, mistakes were made on all sides. Nothing was learned, or taught, all parties were just punished. All in all, a bad day that got progressively worse, nothing was served, and much was lost.

maddoctor.2738 · July 9, 2018

@MorrisG.3681 said:
@maddoctor.2738 said:
@MorrisG.3681 said:
@maddoctor.2738 said:
@MorrisG.3681 said:Second, I can't refute your claim on specific laws in France, even if it sounds unlikely to me. But in Norway, you need to issue at least two warnings (IIRC) before you're allowed to fire someone, one of which needs to be in writing. There's a lot more to it than that, also. So, just to be clear, this sort of thing would most definitely be illegal over here. True, we don't know what happened behind closed doors but MO presented it a certain way in his post and that's what I'm going off.

Do you know how many other warnings she got before being fired? Was there ANY reason at all for MO to tell us about any other such warnings? No there wasn't. You are assuming she's been fired only because of that twitter post, but judging by how hateful the rest of her twitter posts are I'd imagine she already got multiple warnings in the past.

He referenced this event and nothing else, so that's how Anet chose to present it. I'm simply taking the statement at face value. At this point it would probably be wise to revise the statement if there was more to it. It's very possible to do this without going into specifics. Until then I feel it's fair to assume they were fired because of this specific incident.

I don't think "revising" the statement would make any kind of sense. What internal company deals are going on shouldn't be made public in any way.

It already mentions specifics, though. It should have just been a vague "two employees were fired, 'nuff said" if they followed that reasoning. But it specifically references the statements made. In other words, they already talked about internal stuff. They could obviously mention other incidents if there had been any other incidents. But they didn't, so it's a safe assumption that there wasn't. I'm assuming this, you're assuming that. Only assumptions, either way, and without them there's nothing to discuss.

No it's not. They only gave the instances that we know about. There was zero point to talk about things that happened in the past, or behind closed doors. We agree that we assume different things of the same statement though.

BrotherBelial.3094 · July 9, 2018

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
@"Lanhelin.3480" said:There are lots of native speakers here, so I have a question. In a face-to-face communication if one wants to say "one", one would say "one" and not "you", right? Because Deroir wrote in his Twitter conversation with JP:
"When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players' experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can contruct the personality of the PC. (2 of 3)" - could it be possible that JP took all the yous in this sentence personal and not understood them as "one" like Deroir most likely meant?
"When you want ... then yes, by design you are extremely limited ..." - What would my design be? To be a woman, ofc. And JP as a story writer most likely is much more sensitive with words and wording than people who do not work with language that way.
Couldn't this just have been a big misunderstanding?

One might use the word one in place of you but it to me feels awkward and it’s something I would only use if I was being very precise and needed to separate (generic)you from (personal)you. However it would be a prior decision for reasons and not something I would do offhand if I was just talking. If I was asking Deroir’s question I doubt I would use one instead of you.

I doubt though that was the issue. Whether he had used one or you I think she would have been offended by a man questioning her on something she considers Dev narrative theory 101.

Yeah, the only people I know to use the word "one" in the place of "you" or "I" are members of British high society/Royal Family. Most of the time you is a generic term, and when convercing on the internet, I always assume it is being used in a generic way, or there would be a lot of argument.

Zedek.8932 · July 9, 2018

@morrolan.9608 said:
@"MorrisG.3681" said:
Second, I can't refute your claim on specific laws in France, even if it sounds unlikely to me. But in Norway, you need to issue at least two warnings (IIRC) before you're allowed to fire someone, one of which needs to be in writing. There's a lot more to it than that, also. So, just to be clear, this sort of thing would most definitely be illegal over here. True, we don't know what happened behind closed doors but MO presented it a certain way in his post and that's what I'm going off.

Australia requires 3 written warnings.

Same here in Germany (as posted a bit earlier), but the third one is already the termination, so actually it's 2 warnings. Also, you can (but not have to) decline that warning and dispute it. If you poker too high and fail, you gotta pay the cost of the trial, so if it's a clear case, you should accept a warning. Of course, it depends on severity, but "firing" means to leave immediately and without compensation. I am sure they get/got something, because the word "fired" has never been used. Just "not with the company anymore".

Looks like Denmark and Australia have sane labour laws. But as said before, even though I am wildly guessing, that at least the guy (forgot the name) did not just leave without anything. Even his Twitter does not say "I am fired" or "I need a job". The first tweet of him was about people wishing him to have a happy jobhunt or that EA hires "despicable" people and should try it there. That's too hazy in my experience.

Whatever, I am done with that topic now, but I think it's the right way that no moderator stopped it nor that Mr. O'Brien came back to pour more gas into the fire with further statements. Told Mrs. Grey once that shutting down these threads will flood them all over the internet uncontrollable, but having it here to die out is much better.

Excelsior.

Bloodstealer.5978 · July 9, 2018

@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:Congratulations, some of you have just had 2 actual people fired. I hope it was worth being offended on the internet. Sick age we're living in.She was offended too. So was he. Because accountability is a sick age we live in. Amazing right?

Yeah well if everyone was accountable for making others offended on the internet, we'd all be in jail now. But I guess in this case only the devs got the short straw. As I said, congratulations people (you know who you are), your outcry was heard by the mighty Mo, you don't need to be offended anymore.Don't worry, the UK is working on that. lol

Great so now you agree with me?It's not a good idea for law to be punishing people based upon feelings. Because the law should be objective, not subjective. However in this case, we can look at objective and see clearly what was wrong.

But that's precisely the point. Was what they did illegal? If not why are they getting fired for it? Because it hurt someone's feelings which is why they made a reddit thread about it and other people went there and agreed with it. You have to self-censor yourself if you want to keep your job, then?

Illegal? I understand who you are replying to, and what they said, but the situation still had nothing to do with actual law. They were employees acting like kitten. More so Price since from what I saw of the other guy, crap was tame. I don't know if you know how businesses work, but normally you don't want employees attacking your fans/customers unprovoked. Also censor yourself? no. Just don't act like an kitten for no reason in this case. Unless the person is naturally an kitten, then yes, self-censor.

Yeah but they weren't acting as employees. Remember those were their personal accounts. My point isn't that she wasn't acting noxious, my point is that it should have no bearing on her employment. And also if someone didn't put it on reddit, most people wouldn't be offended by it because they wouldn't have known about it. Because what is said between individuals should sometimes just stay between individuals.

No.. sorry your incorrect imo.When someone openly advertises their workplace publicly and then puts out material that is absolutely work related then by their own choice they are putting themselves and the company into the public eye.. by offering out her pro tip AMA she decided, no one else, to put herself on the clock.. what ensued was a lack of professionalism and an abhorrent attack on a respectful community member, a content partner and a person who less than 24hrs previous was calling this person a God, someone he admired for her work.Simple fact is she let both herself down and the company in the way she acted and the things she decided to accuse the poster and similarly ANET of.. and continues to do so reading some of here journo interviews.. which hopefully no one in their right mind would take seriously knowing her history.

As you may have admitted in the end, it's more about her than what she said, isn't it? No really, I've gotten to the point of feeling that her most dedicated haters are all about what she is or said before than really what she did now. But that aside, I can talk about my work in my free time, can't I? It didn't put her on clock, because she wasn't paid for it. Yes, she has acted noxiously, but tbh who cares? She's a prickly person, sure, but the only reason we're having this discussion is because someone popularized it. Otherwise I doubt her twitter followers would have cared (probably because they know her). You do realize that what you're saying is that nobody basically has free time, they're always the company employee, that nobody really has any privacy, because they have to keep representing. And I'm pretty sure this works for politicians, but why should it apply for ordinary people.

Have some wisdom, please, this all can turn against all of us, eventually.

Totally incorrect.. its all about what she said whether it be in her latest outburst to deroir or previous attacks resulting in here being released .She may think she is defending something but there is a time, a place and actual issues that warrants it.. this attempt at respectful open dialogue did not and only paints JP with the very substance at which we know are very real issues in society today no matter what your political preferences are.You like JP are trying to take something and plaster it over something completely harmless.. fact there was no ground or cause for JP to act like she did and say what she said other than for effect and perhaps a bit of "hey look at me" and its backfired on her... actions have consequence and its not the first time that lesson was given by all accounts.

As for repping ANET.. yes when she decided (no one else) to continue her AMA work by adding her own pro tip addendum to it whilst openly advertising she is an ANET dev on her Account she put herself on the clock to discuss with the community, work related content.. there is simply no argument to that and that is why her unprofessional, disrespectful and darn right obnoxious rant session caused the uproar and landed her in ANETS's and MO crosshairs.. it's that simple.As a company owner I would of taken the exact same view and also called that meeting... what we of course don't know, as I have said previously, is what went down at that point and whether there were already some undercurrents which caused the decisions to fire her to be made.. heck we don't even know if that's actually what MO wanted from all this.. except some one side gamerjourno rubbish that JP rushed to push out.

Ah I see you tend to ignore the rules for discussion that Gaile put up.Also how can you speak for others with your "totally incorrect"? You can't, I believe, so your statement is not based in logic.She has numerously stated that she sees a difference between being in her personal twitter feed and corporate one and she acted accordingly. Mo then treated it as a professional CEO quelling a PR disaster. But the disaster has come out of some people in the community who got offended over her words, rather than her words themselves. And no you can't be back on the clock for mentioning the work you do, as I said you don't get paid for it. As I said she wasn't paid for it. It was not on company time, it was not on clock. Do you understand that term?

After running my own business for 23 years.. I Think so.

As for logic.. you appear to lack the understanding of what it means.. if you want to discuss work related content to your customers you are representing your employer that is a clear undeniable fact, something you seem to be overlooking.Whether it be in work or out of work if an individual advertising their employer and choosing to promote or converse work related content with customers.. yes the community is ANET's customer, whether they have bought the product or simply keep track of the product.. they are a potential customer or an actual customer, that individual is representing their employer.. If you don't want to use your private time, your private space in which to conduct work related ideas and conversation then it's that simple.. don't put it out here for public consumption, keep it private or you know.. conduct yourself in the professional manner and act like the experienced professional that you (in this case JP) claims to be... alternatively don't say anything at all use the ignore/block tools that are there for a reason..

A s for ANET stepping in.. your absolutely right there was a PR disaster waiting to unfold.. but you or I have no clue what went down the next day back at ANET and you do not know what else might of also happened internally leading up to that point and you have nothing more than heresay and conjecture to base your assumption on that it was in the reddit brigade that got JP and PF fired, as sad as that is for them and the rest of the company.. fact is it was all self induced consequence.

One last thing.. When choosing to fight against injustice or intolerance.. firstly determine if there is a battle to fight in the first place and then conduct yourself in a way that doesn't make you out to be or paint others unjustly to be the very thing your fighting against.. makes sense AMIRIGHT!

Bloodstealer.5978 · July 9, 2018

@Zedek.8932 said:
@morrolan.9608 said:
@"MorrisG.3681" said:
Second, I can't refute your claim on specific laws in France, even if it sounds unlikely to me. But in Norway, you need to issue at least two warnings (IIRC) before you're allowed to fire someone, one of which needs to be in writing. There's a lot more to it than that, also. So, just to be clear, this sort of thing would most definitely be illegal over here. True, we don't know what happened behind closed doors but MO presented it a certain way in his post and that's what I'm going off.

Australia requires 3 written warnings.

Same here in Germany (as posted a bit earlier), but the third one is already the termination, so actually it's 2 warnings. Also, you can (but not have to) decline that warning and dispute it. If you poker too high and fail, you gotta pay the cost of the trial, so if it's a clear case, you should accept a warning. Of course, it depends on severity, but "firing" means to leave immediately and without compensation. I am sure they get/got something, because the word "fired" has never been used. Just "not with the company anymore".

Looks like Denmark and Australia have sane labour laws. But as said before, even though I am wildly guessing, that at least the guy (forgot the name) did not just leave without anything. Even his Twitter does not say "I am fired" or "I need a job". The first tweet of him was about people wishing him to have a happy jobhunt or that EA hires "despicable" people and should try it there. That's too hazy in my experience.

Whatever, I am done with that topic now, but I think it's the right way that no moderator stopped it nor that Mr. O'Brien came back to pour more gas into the fire with further statements. Told Mrs. Grey once that shutting down these threads will flood them all over the internet uncontrollable, but having it here to die out is much better.

Excelsior.

Pretty sure things like gross misconduct are grounds for instant dismissal in most modern businesses these days.Lets say I am in Germany and I stand outside the building of my largest customer with a flag saying so and is a so and so, I don't have to pretend to like you, f'off don't try conversing with me, I am out her on my own time, this is how the things I do should be done so your opinions on it as customer are meaningless and unimportant.. by the way so and so must be sexist cos he is a man and dared to be respectful and apologetic to me just now. I work in a sexist place, which I dared to invite other women to join, my bad I feel terrible for doing so.

Pretty sure that's grounds for gross misconduct and a very swift boot aimed squarely at both cheeks.. don't slam the door on your way out!

Or maybe I am wrong, perhaps it should of been a quiet chat over tea in a private room whilst politely asking not to do it again please cos its a bit silly and ever so slightly naughty cos our customer might be sad, now lets crack on we have wolves to feed, bravo (thumps up smiles)

lukebrincat.8947 · July 9, 2018

Such decision is never easy, maintaining a cohesive and focused workforce is not easy and a never ending task. Sometimes keeping a "rotten" employee could affect other colleagues. Wishing all the Best for Arenanet and GW2 ^_^

Bloodstealer.5978 · July 9, 2018

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:
@maddoctor.2738 said:
@MorrisG.3681 said:Second, I can't refute your claim on specific laws in France, even if it sounds unlikely to me. But in Norway, you need to issue at least two warnings (IIRC) before you're allowed to fire someone, one of which needs to be in writing. There's a lot more to it than that, also. So, just to be clear, this sort of thing would most definitely be illegal over here. True, we don't know what happened behind closed doors but MO presented it a certain way in his post and that's what I'm going off.

Do you know how many other warnings she got before being fired? Was there ANY reason at all for MO to tell us about any other such warnings? No there wasn't. You are assuming she's been fired only because of that twitter post, but judging by how hateful the rest of her twitter posts are I'd imagine she already got multiple warnings in the past.

Mo couldn't tell us anything specific because he chose to withhold the identities of the people involved, which is doing them a favor if anything.

Yes he acted like the professional he is and should be.. shame JP couldn't keep that same professional approach.. she went straight to the local internet gamerjourno's to continue what she does best.. narrative, only I find it hard to take her narrative seriously now having seen just how she conducts herself.. and that is a real problem when tackling these real issues imo

Jukhy.2431 · July 9, 2018

@TheBravery.9615 said:This thread needs to get locked.

While I tend to agree, I think it's left open on purpose so that people can 'vent their feelings' on the matter. I'm certain that they are monitoring the discussion closely for any misbehaviour.

Ashen.2907 · July 9, 2018

@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@DiabolicalHamSandwich.8756 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:
@Loli Ruri.8307 said:
@inubasiri.8745 said:Congratulations, some of you have just had 2 actual people fired. I hope it was worth being offended on the internet. Sick age we're living in.She was offended too. So was he. Because accountability is a sick age we live in. Amazing right?