The thing that ruined Ep 3 for me...(spoiler)

[Michram.6853]

@DeadTreeJig.6714 said:I thought it was dark, creepy and hilarious and so unexpected that I didn't even think about how she entered the room. It was an ingenious way to make sure he stays gone.

That was just bad and they didnt make sure he is gone for good.

Watch noxxi's video and you can clearly hear that Joko laughs while Aurene roars.

For me the one who created such ending should be fired- Its easy to say, I know, but after seeing such expectation of the WHOLE community for Joko and giving such poor, awful and unexpectedly stupid ending was something what left me absolutely speechless- in a bad meaning.

You can defend Anet as long as you want and explain it in a way this ending sounds good, but the truth is it was the worst thing Anet could ever created.

There is WAY too much funny, ridiculous reactions and thing in this game that makes the story stupid and cant be taken seriously.

We killed the lich, that will create a huge problem and instead of pointing it out, Gorrik walks in and says: Jackpot.

Braham's words were more accurate and more heartbreaking than Joko's, but then they made Braham a crybaby...

I should not expect Shakespeare, but after reading two books: Ghosts of Ascalon and Edge of Destiny I expected more from the story- they are starting to abandon the work of the original writers like Grubb, Soesbee and make this story looking like a joke.

[Tyson.5160]

@Arden.7480 said:

@DeadTreeJig.6714 said:I thought it was dark, creepy and hilarious and so unexpected that I didn't even think about how she entered the room. It was an ingenious way to make sure he stays gone.

That was just bad and they didnt make sure he is gone for good.

Watch noxxi's video and you can clearly hear that Joko laughs while Aurene roars.

For me the one who created such ending should be fired- Its easy to say, I know, but after seeing such expectation of the WHOLE community for Joko and giving such poor, awful and unexpectedly stupid ending was something what left me absolutely speechless- in a bad meaning.

You can defend Anet as long as you want and explain it in a way this ending sounds good, but the truth is it was the worst thing Anet could ever created.

There is WAY too much funny, ridiculous reactions and thing in this game that makes the story stupid and cant be taken seriously.

We killed the lich, that will create a huge problem and instead of pointing it out, Gorrik walks in and says: Jackpot.

Braham's words were more accurate and more heartbreaking than Joko's, but then they made Braham a crybaby...

I should not expect Shakespeare, but after reading two books: Ghosts of Ascalon and Edge of Destiny I expected more from the story- they are starting to abandon the work of the original writers like Grubb, Soesbee and make this story looking like a joke.

Sounds like you don’t really enjoy the story anymore. Unfortunately Guild Wars 2 has never been our story it’s been Anets if they decide to kill Joko this way they will kill him this way and I honestly don’t have an issue with his death or how he died. It makes sense to me.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I can see why the OP finds this annoying. Personally, I thought it was brilliant. We had tons of foreshadowing that Aurene operates on a different plane than we do. She's always shown up unexpectedly; she's always done surprising things.

Yea but she shouldn't be used as a Deus Ex Machina. Joko had won. How can I ever feel in danger when I know that Aurene can jump in from nowhere and eat people everytime I'm in a bad situation?

Except Aurene isn’t a Deus Ex Machina, she has been flying in and assisting us since episode 1 and is almost every single story instance since.

That's exactly why she's a Deus Ex Machina. She simply pops up whenever we happen to need her even if we had no idea where she was.

That’s not what that means. A Deus Ex Machina would instead of Aurene saving the day, it would be like if the Spirits if the Wild flew in and killed Joko, out of nowhere. Aurene was already established in the plot that she was assisting the war effort out in the battle, we saw her and she also has a mental connection/ visual connection with the Commander. Aurene is not a Deus Ex Machina.

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

While it's true that Aurene does seem to swoop in conveniently, only some of her appearances are "effortless" solutions to problems. In LS4.3, for example, in part 1, you still have to stamp out the beetles (she just helps), you still have to kill the demi-boss. In part 2, she has no role. And in part 3, while she addresses "how do you solve a problem like Joko," her sudden "save the day" appearance has other reasons. First, it's funny (at least to some of us). Second, it's meant to illustrate that she'll do whatever she wants; she's a dragon, not our pet savior. Third, it also provides some foreshadowing about dragons & magic, and what is going to happen with LS4.4 and beyond.

Or to put it another way, I don't care if there's a case to be made that something that "seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem;" I care about whether I'm invested in the story, whether said thing undermines my enjoyment or not, whether it moves the plot and character relationships forward. I'd much prefer a D E M that generates humor than a well-explained, integrated solution that distracts from everything that has happened to date.

Case in point: Lazurus turning out to be Balthazar in disguise was well integrated in the plot. It fits B's plans and personality. And I still think it ruined a really interesting subplot (and bit of lore). It makes sense: Balthazar needed unwitting dupes, he needed a way to hide his presence, he needed a way to generate magic he could harness. I just didn't enjoy it as the explanation for Lazarus' return. In this case, I'd have much preferred a D E M, because that would have left more story time for other, more interesting things.

None of that means that anyone has to like how the writers handled killing of Joko. But arguing about whether the term, Deus Ex Machina, is appropriate... that distracts from the more interesting conversation about: what happens next? Does this make Aurene a force to be reckoned with? Will she be part of the solution to managing magic? Part of the problem along with her aunts & uncles? (Or sure, will ANet just waste this idea, too, on having her leap in to save the day again & again.)

[Tyson.5160]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I can see why the OP finds this annoying. Personally, I thought it was brilliant. We had tons of foreshadowing that Aurene operates on a different plane than we do. She's always shown up unexpectedly; she's always done surprising things.

Yea but she shouldn't be used as a Deus Ex Machina. Joko had won. How can I ever feel in danger when I know that Aurene can jump in from nowhere and eat people everytime I'm in a bad situation?

Except Aurene isn’t a Deus Ex Machina, she has been flying in and assisting us since episode 1 and is almost every single story instance since.

That's exactly why she's a Deus Ex Machina. She simply pops up whenever we happen to need her even if we had no idea where she was.

That’s not what that means. A Deus Ex Machina would instead of Aurene saving the day, it would be like if the Spirits if the Wild flew in and killed Joko, out of nowhere. Aurene was already established in the plot that she was assisting the war effort out in the battle, we saw her and she also has a mental connection/ visual connection with the Commander. Aurene is not a Deus Ex Machina.

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Um, that’s is not why Aurene exists though, it wasn’t lets have Aurene exist just to kill Joko, she is an established character and was in the same setting that this mission occurs in, she was right outside in the battle in Kourna. She also has future plot importance.

You know where the term orignates right? It’s when characters are stuck in a problem and the only solution was for one of the gods to come down and solve it for them. Like Zeus coming down from the heavens and solving the problem out of no where. It wouldn’t be a Deus Ex Machina if Zeus was an established character in the story and had interactions throughout the plot.

[Tachenon.5270]

Aurene: Deus Ex Machina or The Cavalry?

She initially reminded of the oversized mosasaurus chomping down on the Indominus Rex, conveniently if inadvertently saving Blue and Rexy, in whatever Jurassic movie that was. After some reflection, she kinda reminded me of Han Solo in Star Wars swooping in from above that trench on the Death Star to get Darth Annie off Luke's tail, 'cept without the big yahoo. I had no problem with it, but I would rather that Joko survived somehow. Like, say, at the last minute, he managed to transfer his consciousness into some inanimate object. Like a stuffed dolly or a sock puppet. Something to take up an inventory slot, that we could use from time to time to avail ourselves of Joko's infinite wisdom. "Hey, Joko! If a circle is 360 degrees, whats the temperature of a triangle?"

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I can see why the OP finds this annoying. Personally, I thought it was brilliant. We had tons of foreshadowing that Aurene operates on a different plane than we do. She's always shown up unexpectedly; she's always done surprising things.

Yea but she shouldn't be used as a Deus Ex Machina. Joko had won. How can I ever feel in danger when I know that Aurene can jump in from nowhere and eat people everytime I'm in a bad situation?

Except Aurene isn’t a Deus Ex Machina, she has been flying in and assisting us since episode 1 and is almost every single story instance since.

That's exactly why she's a Deus Ex Machina. She simply pops up whenever we happen to need her even if we had no idea where she was.

That’s not what that means. A Deus Ex Machina would instead of Aurene saving the day, it would be like if the Spirits if the Wild flew in and killed Joko, out of nowhere. Aurene was already established in the plot that she was assisting the war effort out in the battle, we saw her and she also has a mental connection/ visual connection with the Commander. Aurene is not a Deus Ex Machina.

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Um, that’s is not why Aurene exists though, it wasn’t lets have Aurene exist just to kill Joko, she is an established character and was in the same setting that this mission occurs in, she was right outside in the battle in Kourna. She also has future plot importance.

You know where the term orignates right? It’s when characters are stuck in a problem and the only solution was for one of the gods to come down and solve it for them. Like Zeus coming down from the heavens and solving the problem out of no where. It wouldn’t be a Deus Ex Machina if Zeus was an established character in the story and had interactions throughout the plot.

Literally since the moment Aurene left Tarir, she's been popping out right when we need her when we would otherwise be stuck or dead, her being an established character does not change that.

Same with Taimi, her being an establish character does not mean she doesn't Ex Machina her way through everything right when we're stuck.

[Valkine.8142]

I honestly thought the ending was perfect. I played the LS right away, before everyone started posting spoilers, so when I actually saw it happen I was genuinely surprised! I actually started laughing. My roommate kept glancing over at me, but I couldn't explain why I was laughing so much. It was too much. I'm not upset that Aurene ended up saving the day. Even more than that, I'm glad Joko's demise was highly degrading. It was ironic for such an iconic character to be one-shotted my a three year old.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Technically speaking (emphasis mine):

deus ex machinaˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/Submitnounan unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Aurene isn't an unexpected power by any means. She is an established character and has been for some time. When people are arguing about the semantics of what makes Aurene a deus ex machina, it's the unexpected part they are discussing when they say she isn't one, because she is an established part of the lore and therefore cannot provide unexpected aid. Taimi also isn't technically a deus ex machina for the same reason. Taimi is an established character, therefore her intervention cannot be 'unexpected'. This works with the definition you cited too, because Taimi and Aurene don't JUST exist to effortlessly solve problems. They've both existed far before they were needed to 'effortlessly' solve problems.

What can be argued is that the writers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to easily resolve conflicts that may have taken more narrative effort otherwise. We always knew Aurene was gonna grow up as a dragon and start wreaking havoc when needed, and Taimi has always been portrayed as this super smart individual, possibly the smartest asura in the story. Since we've always known this direction for these two characters, we then MUST expect them to intervene when their abilities would naturally come in to play. It could even be argued that the developers are intentionally creating situations that ONLY these characters can intervene in, making it much less a deus ex machina in a technical sense (and probably another named trope, of which i have no idea the name).

[Ephemiel.5694]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Technically speaking (emphasis mine):

deus ex machinaˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/Submitnounan

unexpected

power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Aurene isn't an unexpected power by any means. She is an established character and has been for some time. When people are arguing about the semantics of what makes Aurene a deus ex machina, it's the unexpected part they are discussing when they say she isn't one, because she is an established part of the lore and therefore cannot provide unexpected aid. Taimi also isn't technically a deus ex machina for the same reason. Taimi is an established character, therefore her intervention cannot be 'unexpected'. This works with the definition you cited too, because Taimi and Aurene don't JUST exist to effortlessly solve problems. They've both existed far before they were needed to 'effortlessly' solve problems.

What can be argued is that the writers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to easily resolve conflicts that may have taken more narrative effort otherwise. We always knew Aurene was gonna grow up as a dragon and start wreaking havoc when needed, and Taimi has always been portrayed as this super smart individual, possibly the smartest asura in the story. Since we've always known this direction for these two characters, we then MUST expect them to intervene when their abilities would naturally come in to play. It could even be argued that the developers are intentionally creating situations that ONLY these characters can intervene in, making it much less a deus ex machina in a technical sense (and probably another named trope, of which i have no idea the name).

Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow modifying Omadd's machine [which she said she cannot replicate.....yet can severely modify to the point that it FORCES 2 ELDER DRAGONS TO FIGHT] that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Technically speaking (emphasis mine):

deus ex machinaˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/Submitnounan

unexpected

power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Aurene isn't an unexpected power by any means. She is an established character and has been for some time. When people are arguing about the semantics of what makes Aurene a deus ex machina, it's the unexpected part they are discussing when they say she isn't one, because she is an established part of the lore and therefore cannot provide unexpected aid. Taimi also isn't technically a deus ex machina for the same reason. Taimi is an established character, therefore her intervention cannot be 'unexpected'. This works with the definition you cited too, because Taimi and Aurene don't JUST exist to effortlessly solve problems. They've both existed far before they were needed to 'effortlessly' solve problems.

What can be argued is that the writers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to easily resolve conflicts that may have taken more narrative effort otherwise. We always knew Aurene was gonna grow up as a dragon and start wreaking havoc when needed, and Taimi has always been portrayed as this super smart individual, possibly the smartest asura in the story. Since we've always known this direction for these two characters, we then MUST expect them to intervene when their abilities would naturally come in to play. It could even be argued that the developers are intentionally creating situations that ONLY these characters can intervene in, making it much less a deus ex machina in a technical sense (and probably another named trope, of which i have no idea the name).

Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow modifying Omadd's machine [which she said she cannot replicate.....yet can severely modify to the point that it FORCES 2 ELDER DRAGONS TO FIGHT] that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

These are fair observations and opinions on the events, but Deus Ex Machina, it is not.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Technically speaking (emphasis mine):

deus ex machinaˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/Submitnounan

unexpected

power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Aurene isn't an unexpected power by any means. She is an established character and has been for some time. When people are arguing about the semantics of what makes Aurene a deus ex machina, it's the unexpected part they are discussing when they say she isn't one, because she is an established part of the lore and therefore cannot provide unexpected aid. Taimi also isn't technically a deus ex machina for the same reason. Taimi is an established character, therefore her intervention cannot be 'unexpected'. This works with the definition you cited too, because Taimi and Aurene don't JUST exist to effortlessly solve problems. They've both existed far before they were needed to 'effortlessly' solve problems.

What can be argued is that the writers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to easily resolve conflicts that may have taken more narrative effort otherwise. We always knew Aurene was gonna grow up as a dragon and start wreaking havoc when needed, and Taimi has always been portrayed as this super smart individual, possibly the smartest asura in the story. Since we've always known this direction for these two characters, we then MUST expect them to intervene when their abilities would naturally come in to play. It could even be argued that the developers are intentionally creating situations that ONLY these characters can intervene in, making it much less a deus ex machina in a technical sense (and probably another named trope, of which i have no idea the name).

Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow modifying Omadd's machine [which she said she cannot replicate.....yet can severely modify to the point that it FORCES 2 ELDER DRAGONS TO FIGHT] that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

These are fair observations and opinions on the events, but Deus Ex Machina, it is not.

But it is. Does Taimi do anything besides just solving impossible problems? Hell, Aurene herself was MADE to solve an impossible problem: replacing an Elder Dragon.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow making a machine that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

You didn't address any of my points and sidestepped everything I said.

1. The ENTIRETY of the technical definition of a deus ex machina has to do with an UNEXPECTED power or event. Narratively speaking, Aurene and Taimia are established. Therefore, they cannot be unexpected. Their abilities are also established, therefore when they do something to drive forward the plot, it CANNOT be unexpected. Therefore, not deus ex machina. Even as plot devices, they are not unexpected. Because both Aurene and Taimia are established, and their capabilities are also established. Taimi has always been smart. Aurene has always been a dragon that can turn invisible and chow down on stuff.
2. I've made it explicitly clear in my post that the developers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to resolve narrative conflicts. There's a difference between a deus ex machina, where a completely new character comes out of nowhere, solves an issue, and then is never seen or heard from again, and what's happening with Taimi and Aurene, where the writers are abusing their capabilities and writing challenges that only Aurene and Taimi can solve.

Just because Aurene and Taimi are used as convenient plot devices does not inherently make them a deus ex machina (specifically they have to be unexpected to be deus ex machinas, because they're established, they are expected). Also, there are narrative explanations for everything she's accomplished since finding Rata Novus.

Taimi made breakthroughs using the research and data available in Rata Novus. Rata Novus SPECIFICALLY had a laboratory dedicated to researching the dragons.

Taimi: Whoa, these Rata Novans had a serious beef against PrimordusCharacter name: Anything on Mordremoth?Taimi: No. Well... Sort of. It's about all the Elder Dragons.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight

Considering they had THAT much information that every elder dragon had a weakness, it really goes to show that Rata Novus was this library of elder dragon information that Taimi could work with, cutting down significantly on the time required to make new discoveries.

Also, Taimi didn't make the machine that accessed the all. It already existed.

Taimi's Machine is a machine created by Taimi utilizing critical parts of Omadd's Machine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Machine

Omadd's Machine was what enabled access to the all to begin with.

Fortunately, proximity to Rata Sum made it possible for Omadd to track her down. Her mentor offered the chance to explore the Eternal Alchemy again. Ceara agreed and left the Michotl village without a word of explanation.

After months of painstaking preparation, Omadd's experiment was ready. Ceara would enter his isolation module, a vast array of thaumechanical devices wired to a coffin-like chamber. Once activated, she would be unfettered by her physical body and could delve into the metaphysical vortex of reality as no one ever had.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw

Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of Omadd's Machine.Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer...Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project

Taimi doesn't know how it works and can't replicate the machine. What she did was take a machine that already had access to the all and modified it to send the energies of Primordus and Jormag at each other.

: I'm not. Don't... We'll just stop him. It's okay. We have to.Taimi: Here's the thing about that... I didn't exactly plan to shut off the machine in the middle of its routine.Taimi: So if he starts it up, the only way to turn it off is to overload it, and that'll blow it to smithereens.Taimi: Omadd's Machine is one of a kind—even I don't know what makes it tick.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection

Also, here's the dialogue around Taimi making the discovery that we have to protect the elder dragons:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

: What's worse than being consumed by a dragon?Taimi: Well, when Balthazar stole the machine, it got me thinking, so I ran a scenario in the simulation room.Taimi: And... I should have done this before! This is all my fault! I was so exhausted!Taimi: Keeping the lab secret, working all hours, I didn't... A— All the lives!Taimi: I've doomed everyone! Probably? I don't know!

Taimi isn't even THAT sure, but we go with our gut instinct:

: So what's going on with Balthazar?Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...Taimi: Okay, I'll admit it. I don't really know exactly what's happening. But...here we are. Clock's ticking. What do you think?: Destroy it. A murderous, overpowered god of war is too dangerous to keep around.: Even if you're wrong about the deaths of more dragons devastating the planet.Taimi: Agreed.

And then just kind of assume that Taimi is right until we get real confirmation from Kesho and the exalted within.

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

She ended up being right, but she was not the ultimate conveyor of the truth. We worked with guesswork. Even then, the Exalted only theorize that the elder dragons must be replaced.

Also, Aurene showed she can turn invisible even when she was a baby in https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precocious_Aurene so it's entirely plausible that she did so when entering Joko's fortress, especially now that her powers have upgraded with her steroid injection of magic.

AND it DOES make sense that Aurene would have found out where the commander was, considering not only that a vision of Aurene appeared in front of the commander no matter where on Tyria they were:

Starting the Episode

: Aurene? What are you doing out here?: That was...odd. Must've been some sort of projection.: I should return to Tarir. Something strange is going on.Speaking to LuminateLuminate: Ah, Commander. Excellent timing—I was just about to send word. Aurene has been calling for you.: Yes, I know. She's been appearing to me. Much like she is right now.Luminate: Aurene? What are you talking about?: And she's gone. Didn't you see her?Luminate: Interesting... I saw nothing. You must've made quite an impression on her. It's as if she's chosen you to light her path.

But also, Aurene flew all the way from Tarir to the crystal desert right when we were battling Balthazar

Balthazar: Ah, the scion... come here to defend her champion.

: Aurene, no...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Departing

And we were dying the whole fight. Aurene flew to us while we were in distress and knew exactly where we were. And THEN, as an adolescent, she also had the ability to SHARE a vision of the future.

Upon approaching Aurene:

: Aurene! We've been looking everywhere for you! What were you thinking? You could have been killed!(Aurene shows a prophetic vision depicting the Awakened assaulting various races of Central Tyria from an ancient city with a Mysterious Figure leading them.)After the vision:Canach: Mulch...!Taimi: Did everybody see that? I'm not the only one that saw that, right?: Aurene... I don't understand. That was... What was that?Rytlock Brimstone: It wasn't good.Canach: The screams…Shadows Agent Kito: I don't know about the rest of it, but the city? Looked a lot like Fahranur.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Brandstorm

(that first part proves that even when bonded with aurene, the commander has no idea where Aurene is)

Which means Aurene had every available resource to find the commander. But at no point has the commander known where Aurene is, so it makes sense that the commander continued to not know and that Aurene would know exactly where the commander was because she's found him before, in multiple ways.

So are you really going to tell me that NONE of Taimi and Aurene's accomplisments were even partway expected? Because all the evidence points to Aurene and Taimi playing to their already established lore strengths.

The ONLY place that Aurene could possibly be considered a deus ex machina would be with regards to replacing the elder dragons. But Aurene as a character showed up in season 2 as an egg and hatched in season 3. The FIRST instance of anyone talking about using Aurene as a replacement for the elder dragons was in Path of fire, that kesho cinematic that I quoted above. So even then, narratively speaking, Aurene isn't a deus ex machina. The story was written around an already existing character. The character was not introduced AFTER the plot point was revealed and needed to be resolved.

So no. At no point are Aurene and Taimi deus ex machinas. Not in the technical sense of an unexpected power saving a hopeless situation. Literally all available evidence shows otherwise.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow making a machine that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

You didn't address any of my points and sidestepped everything I said.

1. The ENTIRETY of the technical definition of a deus ex machina has to do with an UNEXPECTED power or event. Narratively speaking, Aurene and Taimia are established. Therefore, they cannot be unexpected. Their abilities are also established, therefore when they do something to drive forward the plot, it CANNOT be unexpected. Therefore, not deus ex machina. Even as plot devices, they are not unexpected. Because both Aurene and Taimia are established, and their capabilities are also established. Taimi has always been smart. Aurene has always been a dragon that can turn invisible and chow down on stuff.
2. I've made it explicitly clear in my post that the developers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to resolve narrative conflicts. There's a difference between a deus ex machina, where a completely new character comes out of nowhere, solves an issue, and then is never seen or heard from again, and what's happening with Taimi and Aurene, where the writers are abusing their capabilities and writing challenges that only Aurene and Taimi can solve.

Just because Aurene and Taimi are used as convenient plot devices does not inherently make them a deus ex machina (specifically they have to be unexpected to be deus ex machinas, because they're established, they are expected). Also, there are narrative explanations for everything she's accomplished since finding Rata Novus.

Taimi made breakthroughs using the research and data available in Rata Novus. Rata Novus SPECIFICALLY had a laboratory dedicated to researching the dragons.

Taimi: Whoa, these Rata Novans had a serious beef against PrimordusCharacter name: Anything on Mordremoth?Taimi: No. Well... Sort of. It's about all the Elder Dragons.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight

Considering they had THAT much information that every elder dragon had a weakness, it really goes to show that Rata Novus was this library of elder dragon information that Taimi could work with, cutting down significantly on the time required to make new discoveries.

Also, Taimi didn't make the machine that accessed the all. It already existed.

Taimi's Machine is a machine created by Taimi utilizing critical parts of Omadd's Machine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Machine

Omadd's Machine was what enabled access to the all to begin with.

Fortunately, proximity to Rata Sum made it possible for Omadd to track her down. Her mentor offered the chance to explore the Eternal Alchemy again. Ceara agreed and left the Michotl village without a word of explanation.

After months of painstaking preparation, Omadd's experiment was ready. Ceara would enter his isolation module, a vast array of thaumechanical devices wired to a coffin-like chamber. Once activated, she would be unfettered by her physical body and could delve into the metaphysical vortex of reality as no one ever had.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw

Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of Omadd's Machine.Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer...Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project

Taimi doesn't know how it works and can't replicate the machine. What she did was take a machine that already had access to the all and modified it to send the energies of Primordus and Jormag at each other.

: I'm not. Don't... We'll just stop him. It's okay. We have to.Taimi: Here's the thing about that... I didn't exactly plan to shut off the machine in the middle of its routine.Taimi: So if he starts it up, the only way to turn it off is to overload it, and that'll blow it to smithereens.Taimi: Omadd's Machine is one of a kind—even I don't know what makes it tick.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection

Also, here's the dialogue around Taimi making the discovery that we have to protect the elder dragons:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

: What's worse than being consumed by a dragon?Taimi: Well, when Balthazar stole the machine, it got me thinking, so I ran a scenario in the simulation room.Taimi: And... I should have done this before! This is all my fault! I was so exhausted!Taimi: Keeping the lab secret, working all hours, I didn't... A— All the lives!Taimi: I've doomed everyone! Probably? I don't know!

Taimi isn't even THAT sure, but we go with our gut instinct:

: So what's going on with Balthazar?Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...Taimi: Okay, I'll admit it. I don't really know exactly what's happening. But...here we are. Clock's ticking. What do you think?: Destroy it. A murderous, overpowered god of war is too dangerous to keep around.: Even if you're wrong about the deaths of more dragons devastating the planet.Taimi: Agreed.

And then just kind of assume that Taimi is right until we get real confirmation from Kesho and the exalted within.

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

She ended up being right, but she was not the ultimate conveyor of the truth. We worked with guesswork. Even then, the Exalted only theorize that the elder dragons must be replaced.

Also, Aurene showed she can turn invisible even when she was a baby in

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precocious_Aurene

so it's entirely plausible that she did so when entering Joko's fortress, especially now that her powers have upgraded with her steroid injection of magic.

AND it DOES make sense that Aurene would have found out where the commander was, considering not only that a vision of Aurene appeared in front of the commander no matter where on Tyria they were:

Starting the Episode

: Aurene? What are you doing out here?: That was...odd. Must've been some sort of projection.: I should return to Tarir. Something strange is going on.Speaking to LuminateLuminate: Ah, Commander. Excellent timing—I was just about to send word. Aurene has been calling for you.: Yes, I know. She's been appearing to me. Much like she is right now.Luminate: Aurene? What are you talking about?: And she's gone. Didn't you see her?Luminate: Interesting... I saw nothing. You must've made quite an impression on her. It's as if she's chosen you to light her path.

But also, Aurene flew all the way from Tarir to the crystal desert right when we were battling Balthazar

Balthazar: Ah, the scion... come here to defend her champion.

: Aurene, no...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Departing

And we were dying the whole fight. Aurene flew to us while we were in distress and knew exactly where we were. And THEN, as an adolescent, she also had the ability to SHARE a vision of the future.

Upon approaching Aurene:

: Aurene! We've been looking everywhere for you! What were you thinking? You could have been killed!(Aurene shows a prophetic vision depicting the Awakened assaulting various races of Central Tyria from an ancient city with a Mysterious Figure leading them.)After the vision:Canach: Mulch...!Taimi: Did everybody see that? I'm not the only one that saw that, right?: Aurene... I don't understand. That was... What was that?Rytlock Brimstone: It wasn't good.Canach: The screams…Shadows Agent Kito: I don't know about the rest of it, but the city? Looked a lot like Fahranur.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Brandstorm

(that first part proves that even when bonded with aurene, the commander has no idea where Aurene is)

Which means Aurene had every available resource to find the commander. But at no point has the commander known where Aurene is, so it makes sense that the commander continued to not know and that Aurene would know exactly where the commander was because she's found him before, in multiple ways.

So are you really going to tell me that NONE of Taimi and Aurene's accomplisments were even partway expected? Because all the evidence points to Aurene and Taimi playing to their already established lore strengths.

The ONLY place that Aurene could possibly be considered a deus ex machina would be with regards to replacing the elder dragons. But Aurene as a character showed up in season 2 as an egg and hatched in season 3. The FIRST instance of anyone talking about using Aurene as a replacement for the elder dragons was in Path of fire, that kesho cinematic that I quoted above. So even then, narratively speaking, Aurene isn't a deus ex machina. The story was written around an already existing character. The character was not introduced AFTER the plot point was revealed and needed to be resolved.

So no. At no point are Aurene and Taimi deus ex machinas. Not in the technical sense of an

unexpected

power saving a hopeless situation. Literally all available evidence shows otherwise.

The mere fact you think that because a character is established, that means they cannot do something unexpected or sudden proves that you have no idea what you're talking about, i'm done with this conversation, it's like talking to a big brick wall.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

"Deus Ex Machina is the literary term that refers to a character or event that seems to exist just to effortlessly solve a problem that seems unsolvable."

That is exactly what Aurene does, do some research.

Technically speaking (emphasis mine):

deus ex machinaˌdeɪʊs ɛks ˈmakɪnə,ˌdiːəs ɛks məˈʃiːnə/Submitnounan

unexpected

power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

Aurene isn't an unexpected power by any means. She is an established character and has been for some time. When people are arguing about the semantics of what makes Aurene a deus ex machina, it's the unexpected part they are discussing when they say she isn't one, because she is an established part of the lore and therefore cannot provide unexpected aid. Taimi also isn't technically a deus ex machina for the same reason. Taimi is an established character, therefore her intervention cannot be 'unexpected'. This works with the definition you cited too, because Taimi and Aurene don't JUST exist to effortlessly solve problems. They've both existed far before they were needed to 'effortlessly' solve problems.

What can be argued is that the writers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to easily resolve conflicts that may have taken more narrative effort otherwise. We always knew Aurene was gonna grow up as a dragon and start wreaking havoc when needed, and Taimi has always been portrayed as this super smart individual, possibly the smartest asura in the story. Since we've always known this direction for these two characters, we then MUST expect them to intervene when their abilities would naturally come in to play. It could even be argued that the developers are intentionally creating situations that ONLY these characters can intervene in, making it much less a deus ex machina in a technical sense (and probably another named trope, of which i have no idea the name).

Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow modifying Omadd's machine [which she said she cannot replicate.....yet can severely modify to the point that it FORCES 2 ELDER DRAGONS TO FIGHT] that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

These are fair observations and opinions on the events, but Deus Ex Machina, it is not.

But it is. Does Taimi do anything besides just solving impossible problems? Hell, Aurene herself was MADE to solve an impossible problem: replacing an Elder Dragon.

This is the plot and story design for the game. You are missing the point. What you are talking about is not Deus Ex Machina. These are characters solving problems as they occur in the story. It’s then your opinion if these are good or bad or far fetched solutions, but they aren’t Deus Ex Machina. Reread castle’s post he explained it far better then I did.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:The mere fact you think that because a character is established, that means they cannot do something unexpected or sudden proves that you have no idea what you're talking about, i'm done with this conversation, it's like talking to a big brick wall.

EDIT: I'm surprised at this response because we were talking about deus ex machina and it's definition. Your shift away from discussing deus ex machina is striking. The original response is below unedited.

Characters doing something unexpected is not, in and of itself, a deus ex machina. The fact that you think that constitutes a deus ex machina when it factually does not makes me believe I'm talking to a brick wall.

Make no mistake, that's what we're talking about here. The definition of deus ex machina. If you want to shift the conversation to something else, I'd be happy to, but I've been entirely discussing the definition of deus ex machina and providing proof that there hasn't been anything that Taimi and Aurene do that constitute, in any way, shape or form, a deus ex machina. On TOP of that, all of Taimi's discoveries have something to lean on and Aurene's ability to find the commander during the Joko confrontation has been established before as well, none of which constitutes a deus ex machina.

A deus ex machina is NOT an already established character doing something sudden or unexpected. Aurene chowing down on Joko IS unexpected, that's a new character development because we haven't fully explored how Aurene is as a character. Taimi using a holosmith shield in that cinematic with the scarab plague is unexpected, because nothing has indicated that she connected with the engineers in Amnoon and learned the ways of the holosmith. THOSE things are sudden and unexpected. But all the things you noted aren't unexpected OR sudden, because they were set up previously. The first time Aurene demonstrated her abilities WERE sudden and unexpected, because we have no idea what her full capabilities are. The fact that she could project an image of herself was unexpected because we hadn't seen it before, the fact that she turned invisible in that same episode was unexpected because we hadn't seen any dragon pulling off an invisibility stunt before, the fact that Aurene has a honing beacon on us during the balthazar fight was unexpected. But you didn't talk about any of that, because your focus was on the Joko part and I corrected you by showing you Aurene had demonstrated all the necessary abilities beforehand to locate us within Joko's fortress and sneak up undetected on Joko.

You're free to be done with the conversation and not reply, I'm done with this as well, because I've made significant efforts and proven with evidence that nothing that has happened with Aurene and Taimi has been a deus ex machina, only to find that the conversation somehow shifted away from the definition of deus ex machina and towards something about established characters doing unexpected or sudden things. Again, if you want to simply discuss characters performing sudden/unexpected feats, we can shift the conversation that way, but you are factually wrong in conflating characters performing unexpected/sudden feats with deus ex machina. Because that's not what a deus ex machina is.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow making a machine that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

You didn't address any of my points and sidestepped everything I said.

1. The ENTIRETY of the technical definition of a deus ex machina has to do with an UNEXPECTED power or event. Narratively speaking, Aurene and Taimia are established. Therefore, they cannot be unexpected. Their abilities are also established, therefore when they do something to drive forward the plot, it CANNOT be unexpected. Therefore, not deus ex machina. Even as plot devices, they are not unexpected. Because both Aurene and Taimia are established, and their capabilities are also established. Taimi has always been smart. Aurene has always been a dragon that can turn invisible and chow down on stuff.
2. I've made it explicitly clear in my post that the developers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to resolve narrative conflicts. There's a difference between a deus ex machina, where a completely new character comes out of nowhere, solves an issue, and then is never seen or heard from again, and what's happening with Taimi and Aurene, where the writers are abusing their capabilities and writing challenges that only Aurene and Taimi can solve.

Just because Aurene and Taimi are used as convenient plot devices does not inherently make them a deus ex machina (specifically they have to be unexpected to be deus ex machinas, because they're established, they are expected). Also, there are narrative explanations for everything she's accomplished since finding Rata Novus.

Taimi made breakthroughs using the research and data available in Rata Novus. Rata Novus SPECIFICALLY had a laboratory dedicated to researching the dragons.

Taimi: Whoa, these Rata Novans had a serious beef against PrimordusCharacter name: Anything on Mordremoth?Taimi: No. Well... Sort of. It's about all the Elder Dragons.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight

Considering they had THAT much information that every elder dragon had a weakness, it really goes to show that Rata Novus was this library of elder dragon information that Taimi could work with, cutting down significantly on the time required to make new discoveries.

Also, Taimi didn't make the machine that accessed the all. It already existed.

Taimi's Machine is a machine created by Taimi utilizing critical parts of Omadd's Machine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Machine

Omadd's Machine was what enabled access to the all to begin with.

Fortunately, proximity to Rata Sum made it possible for Omadd to track her down. Her mentor offered the chance to explore the Eternal Alchemy again. Ceara agreed and left the Michotl village without a word of explanation.

After months of painstaking preparation, Omadd's experiment was ready. Ceara would enter his isolation module, a vast array of thaumechanical devices wired to a coffin-like chamber. Once activated, she would be unfettered by her physical body and could delve into the metaphysical vortex of reality as no one ever had.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw

Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of Omadd's Machine.Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer...Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project

Taimi doesn't know how it works and can't replicate the machine. What she did was take a machine that already had access to the all and modified it to send the energies of Primordus and Jormag at each other.

: I'm not. Don't... We'll just stop him. It's okay. We have to.Taimi: Here's the thing about that... I didn't exactly plan to shut off the machine in the middle of its routine.Taimi: So if he starts it up, the only way to turn it off is to overload it, and that'll blow it to smithereens.Taimi: Omadd's Machine is one of a kind—even I don't know what makes it tick.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection

Also, here's the dialogue around Taimi making the discovery that we have to protect the elder dragons:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

: What's worse than being consumed by a dragon?Taimi: Well, when Balthazar stole the machine, it got me thinking, so I ran a scenario in the simulation room.Taimi: And... I should have done this before! This is all my fault! I was so exhausted!Taimi: Keeping the lab secret, working all hours, I didn't... A— All the lives!Taimi: I've doomed everyone! Probably? I don't know!

Taimi isn't even THAT sure, but we go with our gut instinct:

: So what's going on with Balthazar?Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...Taimi: Okay, I'll admit it. I don't really know exactly what's happening. But...here we are. Clock's ticking. What do you think?: Destroy it. A murderous, overpowered god of war is too dangerous to keep around.: Even if you're wrong about the deaths of more dragons devastating the planet.Taimi: Agreed.

And then just kind of assume that Taimi is right until we get real confirmation from Kesho and the exalted within.

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

She ended up being right, but she was not the ultimate conveyor of the truth. We worked with guesswork. Even then, the Exalted only theorize that the elder dragons must be replaced.

Also, Aurene showed she can turn invisible even when she was a baby in

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precocious_Aurene

so it's entirely plausible that she did so when entering Joko's fortress, especially now that her powers have upgraded with her steroid injection of magic.

AND it DOES make sense that Aurene would have found out where the commander was, considering not only that a vision of Aurene appeared in front of the commander no matter where on Tyria they were:

Starting the Episode

: Aurene? What are you doing out here?: That was...odd. Must've been some sort of projection.: I should return to Tarir. Something strange is going on.Speaking to LuminateLuminate: Ah, Commander. Excellent timing—I was just about to send word. Aurene has been calling for you.: Yes, I know. She's been appearing to me. Much like she is right now.Luminate: Aurene? What are you talking about?: And she's gone. Didn't you see her?Luminate: Interesting... I saw nothing. You must've made quite an impression on her. It's as if she's chosen you to light her path.

But also, Aurene flew all the way from Tarir to the crystal desert right when we were battling Balthazar

Balthazar: Ah, the scion... come here to defend her champion.

: Aurene, no...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Departing

And we were dying the whole fight. Aurene flew to us while we were in distress and knew exactly where we were. And THEN, as an adolescent, she also had the ability to SHARE a vision of the future.

Upon approaching Aurene:

: Aurene! We've been looking everywhere for you! What were you thinking? You could have been killed!(Aurene shows a prophetic vision depicting the Awakened assaulting various races of Central Tyria from an ancient city with a Mysterious Figure leading them.)After the vision:Canach: Mulch...!Taimi: Did everybody see that? I'm not the only one that saw that, right?: Aurene... I don't understand. That was... What was that?Rytlock Brimstone: It wasn't good.Canach: The screams…Shadows Agent Kito: I don't know about the rest of it, but the city? Looked a lot like Fahranur.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Brandstorm

(that first part proves that even when bonded with aurene, the commander has no idea where Aurene is)

Which means Aurene had every available resource to find the commander. But at no point has the commander known where Aurene is, so it makes sense that the commander continued to not know and that Aurene would know exactly where the commander was because she's found him before, in multiple ways.

So are you really going to tell me that NONE of Taimi and Aurene's accomplisments were even partway expected? Because all the evidence points to Aurene and Taimi playing to their already established lore strengths.

The ONLY place that Aurene could possibly be considered a deus ex machina would be with regards to replacing the elder dragons. But Aurene as a character showed up in season 2 as an egg and hatched in season 3. The FIRST instance of anyone talking about using Aurene as a replacement for the elder dragons was in Path of fire, that kesho cinematic that I quoted above. So even then, narratively speaking, Aurene isn't a deus ex machina. The story was written around an already existing character. The character was not introduced AFTER the plot point was revealed and needed to be resolved.

So no. At no point are Aurene and Taimi deus ex machinas. Not in the technical sense of an

unexpected

power saving a hopeless situation. Literally all available evidence shows otherwise.

The mere fact you think that because a character is established, that means they cannot do something unexpected or sudden proves that you have no idea what you're talking about, i'm done with this conversation, it's like talking to a big brick wall.

That’s not what he is saying... We are trying to explain Deus Ex Machina to you...

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:Again, both Aurene and Taimi are established characters, but they literally, unexpected, AS A PLOT DEVICE, constantly show up with solutions in hopeless situations.

Taimi magically telling us stuff we don't know in what feels like hours of her researching [when it took ages in the Personal Story for anyone to truly figure stuff out], her somehow making a machine that tapped into the All to make 2 Elder Dragons fight each other [and just so happens to be the one that realizes that doing this exact thing would destroy Tyria]. There's a reason why people joke around so much and call her Deus Ex Taimi when even Zojja [you know, the main reason we managed to even fight Zhaitan since she made the cannons?] pales in comparison [and now Zojja's pretty much been removed from the story]

And then there's Aurene, who also literally swoops in when things go wrong out of nowhere with no explanation of where the heck she was beforehand [which makes no sense since the Commander is supposed to have a link to her], down to the fact she somehow got into Joko's fortress, SILENTLY, and ate the guy.

You didn't address any of my points and sidestepped everything I said.

1. The ENTIRETY of the technical definition of a deus ex machina has to do with an UNEXPECTED power or event. Narratively speaking, Aurene and Taimia are established. Therefore, they cannot be unexpected. Their abilities are also established, therefore when they do something to drive forward the plot, it CANNOT be unexpected. Therefore, not deus ex machina. Even as plot devices, they are not unexpected. Because both Aurene and Taimia are established, and their capabilities are also established. Taimi has always been smart. Aurene has always been a dragon that can turn invisible and chow down on stuff.
2. I've made it explicitly clear in my post that the developers are exploiting the abilities of Aurene and Taimi to resolve narrative conflicts. There's a difference between a deus ex machina, where a completely new character comes out of nowhere, solves an issue, and then is never seen or heard from again, and what's happening with Taimi and Aurene, where the writers are abusing their capabilities and writing challenges that only Aurene and Taimi can solve.

Just because Aurene and Taimi are used as convenient plot devices does not inherently make them a deus ex machina (specifically they have to be unexpected to be deus ex machinas, because they're established, they are expected). Also, there are narrative explanations for everything she's accomplished since finding Rata Novus.

Taimi made breakthroughs using the research and data available in Rata Novus. Rata Novus SPECIFICALLY had a laboratory dedicated to researching the dragons.

Taimi: Whoa, these Rata Novans had a serious beef against PrimordusCharacter name: Anything on Mordremoth?Taimi: No. Well... Sort of. It's about all the Elder Dragons.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Buried_Insight

Considering they had THAT much information that every elder dragon had a weakness, it really goes to show that Rata Novus was this library of elder dragon information that Taimi could work with, cutting down significantly on the time required to make new discoveries.

Also, Taimi didn't make the machine that accessed the all. It already existed.

Taimi's Machine is a machine created by Taimi utilizing critical parts of Omadd's Machine.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Machine

Omadd's Machine was what enabled access to the all to begin with.

Fortunately, proximity to Rata Sum made it possible for Omadd to track her down. Her mentor offered the chance to explore the Eternal Alchemy again. Ceara agreed and left the Michotl village without a word of explanation.

After months of painstaking preparation, Omadd's experiment was ready. Ceara would enter his isolation module, a vast array of thaumechanical devices wired to a coffin-like chamber. Once activated, she would be unfettered by her physical body and could delve into the metaphysical vortex of reality as no one ever had.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Short_Story:_What_Scarlet_Saw

Taimi: Ah. Okay, it runs off the heart of Omadd's Machine.Taimi: That, combined with my spectrum research, aided by my assistant, Spencer...Taimi: Will let me manipulate the Eternal Alchemy to smash Primordus and Jormag's unique signatures together.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Pet_Project

Taimi doesn't know how it works and can't replicate the machine. What she did was take a machine that already had access to the all and modified it to send the energies of Primordus and Jormag at each other.

: I'm not. Don't... We'll just stop him. It's okay. We have to.Taimi: Here's the thing about that... I didn't exactly plan to shut off the machine in the middle of its routine.Taimi: So if he starts it up, the only way to turn it off is to overload it, and that'll blow it to smithereens.Taimi: Omadd's Machine is one of a kind—even I don't know what makes it tick.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elder_Druid_Protection

Also, here's the dialogue around Taimi making the discovery that we have to protect the elder dragons:

Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

: What's worse than being consumed by a dragon?Taimi: Well, when Balthazar stole the machine, it got me thinking, so I ran a scenario in the simulation room.Taimi: And... I should have done this before! This is all my fault! I was so exhausted!Taimi: Keeping the lab secret, working all hours, I didn't... A— All the lives!Taimi: I've doomed everyone! Probably? I don't know!

Taimi isn't even THAT sure, but we go with our gut instinct:

: So what's going on with Balthazar?Taimi: He's somehow inserted himself into the system... And he's so magically adept... So in order to absorb...Taimi: Okay, I'll admit it. I don't really know exactly what's happening. But...here we are. Clock's ticking. What do you think?: Destroy it. A murderous, overpowered god of war is too dangerous to keep around.: Even if you're wrong about the deaths of more dragons devastating the planet.Taimi: Agreed.

And then just kind of assume that Taimi is right until we get real confirmation from Kesho and the exalted within.

Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward

She ended up being right, but she was not the ultimate conveyor of the truth. We worked with guesswork. Even then, the Exalted only theorize that the elder dragons must be replaced.

Also, Aurene showed she can turn invisible even when she was a baby in

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precocious_Aurene

so it's entirely plausible that she did so when entering Joko's fortress, especially now that her powers have upgraded with her steroid injection of magic.

AND it DOES make sense that Aurene would have found out where the commander was, considering not only that a vision of Aurene appeared in front of the commander no matter where on Tyria they were:

Starting the Episode

: Aurene? What are you doing out here?: That was...odd. Must've been some sort of projection.: I should return to Tarir. Something strange is going on.Speaking to LuminateLuminate: Ah, Commander. Excellent timing—I was just about to send word. Aurene has been calling for you.: Yes, I know. She's been appearing to me. Much like she is right now.Luminate: Aurene? What are you talking about?: And she's gone. Didn't you see her?Luminate: Interesting... I saw nothing. You must've made quite an impression on her. It's as if she's chosen you to light her path.

But also, Aurene flew all the way from Tarir to the crystal desert right when we were battling Balthazar

Balthazar: Ah, the scion... come here to defend her champion.

: Aurene, no...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Departing

And we were dying the whole fight. Aurene flew to us while we were in distress and knew exactly where we were. And THEN, as an adolescent, she also had the ability to SHARE a vision of the future.

Upon approaching Aurene:

: Aurene! We've been looking everywhere for you! What were you thinking? You could have been killed!(Aurene shows a prophetic vision depicting the Awakened assaulting various races of Central Tyria from an ancient city with a Mysterious Figure leading them.)After the vision:Canach: Mulch...!Taimi: Did everybody see that? I'm not the only one that saw that, right?: Aurene... I don't understand. That was... What was that?Rytlock Brimstone: It wasn't good.Canach: The screams…Shadows Agent Kito: I don't know about the rest of it, but the city? Looked a lot like Fahranur.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eye_of_the_Brandstorm

(that first part proves that even when bonded with aurene, the commander has no idea where Aurene is)

Which means Aurene had every available resource to find the commander. But at no point has the commander known where Aurene is, so it makes sense that the commander continued to not know and that Aurene would know exactly where the commander was because she's found him before, in multiple ways.

So are you really going to tell me that NONE of Taimi and Aurene's accomplisments were even partway expected? Because all the evidence points to Aurene and Taimi playing to their already established lore strengths.

The ONLY place that Aurene could possibly be considered a deus ex machina would be with regards to replacing the elder dragons. But Aurene as a character showed up in season 2 as an egg and hatched in season 3. The FIRST instance of anyone talking about using Aurene as a replacement for the elder dragons was in Path of fire, that kesho cinematic that I quoted above. So even then, narratively speaking, Aurene isn't a deus ex machina. The story was written around an already existing character. The character was not introduced AFTER the plot point was revealed and needed to be resolved.

So no. At no point are Aurene and Taimi deus ex machinas. Not in the technical sense of an

unexpected

power saving a hopeless situation. Literally all available evidence shows otherwise.

The mere fact you think that because a character is established, that means they cannot do something unexpected or sudden proves that you have no idea what you're talking about, i'm done with this conversation, it's like talking to a big brick wall.

That’s not what he is saying... We are trying to explain Deus Ex Machina to you...

That is what you both are saying. You BOTH keep saying nothing else besides "she's an established character, so she can't be a Deus Ex Machina" when at no point in that term's history has it ever been said that. The whole POINT of the term is when something or someone just keeps popping up solving problems that otherwise would have no solutions, both Taimi and Aurene do that constantly by just popping up out of nowhere and either saving us from a situation we would clearly have failed otherwise or by providing solutions out of nowhere. Hell, Aurene literally just flies in and eats Joko of all people [decently sized, aggressive crystal dragon here, clearly a master of stealth].

Taimi especially does very little until she has to spring important game-changing information that apparently only she could have known and even super smart and important Zojja didn't even imagine [gotta fight 2 dragons? No prob, she can modify Omadd's machine after saying she can't even duplicate it. We're gonna do that? Wait, she figured out that if we kill another dragon, we can kiss Tyria good bye].

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/69ftig/spoiler_the_taimi_convenience/https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6okii3/who_else_gets_sick_of_taimi_knowing_the_answer_to/

I'm not the only one that thinks this, so i imagine all of them are wrong too.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:That is what you both are saying. You BOTH keep saying nothing else besides "she's an established character, so she can't be a Deus Ex Machina" when at no point in that term's history has it ever been said that.

EDIT: Looks like I missed a couple of bits from the wikipedia article:

However, other scholars have looked at Euripides' use of deus ex machina and described its use as an integral part of the plot designed for a specific purpose. Often Euripides' plays would begin with gods, so it is argued that it would be natural for the gods to finish the action. The conflict throughout Euripides' plays would be caused by the meddling of the gods and therefore would make sense to both the playwright and the audience of the time that the gods would resolve all conflict that they began.[24] Half of Euripides' eighteen extant plays end with the use of deus ex machina, therefore it was not simply a device to relieve the playwright of the embarrassment of a confusing plot ending. This device enabled him to bring about a natural and more dignified dramatic and tragic ending.[25]

and

Shakespeare used the device in As You Like It, Pericles, Prince of Tyre, Cymbeline and The Winter's Tale.[8] It was also used in John Gay's The Beggar's Opera where the author uses a character to break the action and rewrite the ending as a reprieve of the hanging of MacHeath. Both in Shakespeare's and Gay's plays the deus ex machina happens with breaking the dramatic illusion often in the form of an episodic narrator exposing the play itself and laying bare the author. This is different from the use of the deus ex machina in the ancient examples with the ending coming from a participant in the action in the form of a god. It is natural for the gods to be considered participants and not outside sources because of their privileged position and power. It is these attributes that allow the Greek gods to believably wrap up and solve the series of events.[9]

Emphasis mine.

So it seems that it's original incarnation was a contrived intervention from a much higher power that only they could resolve. A plot device that literally required the gods to help change the outcome. This is kind of quoted below as well, but that second quote made me rethink my stance in that the gods were a large part of ancient greek culture, and as such any plays would naturally include the existence of the gods and the capability of their intervention. In that essence Aurene especially is a deus ex machina, with Taimi being less of an example in my opinion, but an example nonetheless. Here's a quote that I used in the original version of this post:

Aristotle was the first to use a Greek term equivalent to the Latin phrase deus ex machina as a term to describe the technique as a device to resolve the plot of tragedies.[5] It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic (although it is sometimes deliberately used to do this) and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though perhaps more palatable, ending.[11]

The second half is not Aristotle's words, as I initially believed. It comes from another website linked here that specifies an example where something is not previously established but does go on to look at the original use of the term. This is the weird thing with etymology, like irregardless being technically incorrect because the 'ir' prefex denotes a negative and the suffix 'less' is a negative as well, with double negatives resulting in the positive form of the word, so any time you say 'irregardless' you're saying 'with regards to', but it's been so commonly used that way that the word has taken on the opposite of it's original meaning. A closer comparison would be biannual, which means both 'once every two years' and 'twice a year', strangely enough. So when it comes to deus ex machina, there seems to be two definitions of the term, one that focuses only on plot devices that were never established beforehand and another that includes established characters performing unexpected feats. I'll leave my original response below, because I'll own that I said it, but i'll put it in spoilers to not take up space and make this the focus of the post.

! Except:!! > Deus ex machina is a Latin calque from Greek ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός (apò mēkhanês theós), meaning 'god from the machine'.[4]! >! > The term was coined from the conventions of Greek tragedy, where a machine is used to bring actors playing gods onto the stage. The machine could be either a crane (mechane) used to lower actors from above or a riser that brought actors up through a trapdoor. Preparation to pick up the actors was done behind the skene. The idea was introduced by Aeschylus and was used often to resolve the conflict and conclude the drama. Although the device is associated mostly with Greek tragedy, it also appeared in comedies.!! which was used as follows!! > Aeschylus used the device in his Eumenides, but it was with Euripides that it became an established stage machine. More than half of Euripides' extant tragedies employ a deus ex machina in their resolution, and some critics claim that Euripides, not Aeschylus, invented it.[6] A frequently cited example is Euripides' Medea, in which the deus ex machina, a dragon-drawn chariot sent by the sun god, is used to convey his granddaughter Medea, who has just committed murder and infanticide, away from her husband Jason to the safety and civilization of Athens. In Alcestis, the eponymous heroine agrees to give up her own life in order to spare the life of her husband, Admetus. At the end, Heracles shows up and seizes Alcestis from Death, restoring her to life and to Admetus.! >! > Aristophanes' play Thesmophoriazusae parodies Euripides' frequent use of the crane by making Euripides himself a character in the play and bringing him on stage by way of the mechane.! >! > The effect of the device on Greek audiences was a direct and immediate emotional response. Audiences would have a feeling of wonder and astonishment at the appearance of the gods, which would often add to the moral effect of the drama.[7]!! and some very famous historical figures have an important thing to say about this:!! > Aristotle was the first to use a Greek term equivalent to the Latin phrase deus ex machina as a term to describe the technique as a device to resolve the plot of tragedies.[5] It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic (although it is sometimes deliberately used to do this) and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely, though perhaps more palatable, ending.[11]!! (emphasis mine)!! and an example included is:!! > In H. G. Wells's The War of the Worlds, the Martians, who have destroyed everything in their path and apparently triumphed over humanity, are killed by bacteria.[12]!! In which the bacteria is a deus ex machina, having not been referenced at all or even acknowledged as a possible weak point of the martians until the end of the drama when they were finally dead.!! (all from the wikipedia article on Deus Ex Machina: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina )!! So when I talk about how the storytelling consistently showcases Aurene and Taimi's abilities, I'm talking about it from this respect. A deus ex machina is, in it's original and technical terminology, an unexpected power that has not been established before. If Darth Vader opened a portal, decapitated kralkatorrik and just peaced out back into the star wars universe, that would be a deus ex machina according to the original definition. You'll also note that, at several points, I've mentioned that the technical terminology of deus ex machina requires that the intervening power be unknown. That was the whole point. That's what I was saying from the beginning but I failed to put the emphasis on the technical definition of the term in the end.!! In the same vein that a large number of english speaking people use 'irregardless' to mean 'regardless' (when it's technically wrong), deus ex machina has been used as a term for anything that is seen as a convenient plot device. So yes, it's possible that a large number of people use the term in a light that does not reflect it's original intent, because language is weird and is why 'flammable' and 'inflammable' have the same meaning and why 'biannual' has two separate, contradicting meanings. Deus ex machina is just another case of language being weird.

[Pax.3548]

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:That is what you both are saying. You BOTH keep saying nothing else besides "she's an established character, so she can't be a Deus Ex Machina" when at no point in that term's history has it ever been said that. The whole POINT of the term is when something or someone just keeps popping up solving problems that otherwise would have no solutions, both Taimi and Aurene do that constantly by just popping up out of nowhere and either saving us from a situation we would clearly have failed otherwise or by providing solutions out of nowhere. Hell, Aurene literally just flies in and eats Joko of all people [decently sized, aggressive crystal dragon here, clearly a master of stealth].

Thats not deux machina, From years before (since we learn dragons eat magic) I knew an option for dealing with Joko could involve being eating by a dragon: Aurene was that dragon (which YOU CAN SEE around the battlefield), and you should know by now that what you see, she sees too, if the commander get in trouble, SHE WILL know it and will come to his/her aid just like with Balthazar (but hey, that time she didn't save us, so no Deus Ex Machina there right?). Knowing all of this, If you keep getting that feeling then perphaps you should start to pay more attention to each npcs characteristics and traits, and then maybe you will stop using the term deus ex machina so loosely.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Pax.3548 said:

@"Ephemiel.5694" said:That is what you both are saying. You BOTH keep saying nothing else besides "she's an established character, so she can't be a Deus Ex Machina" when at no point in that term's history has it ever been said that. The whole POINT of the term is when something or someone just keeps popping up solving problems that otherwise would have no solutions, both Taimi and Aurene do that constantly by just popping up out of nowhere and either saving us from a situation we would clearly have failed otherwise or by providing solutions out of nowhere. Hell, Aurene literally just flies in and eats Joko of all people [decently sized, aggressive crystal dragon here, clearly a master of stealth].

Thats not deux machina, From years before (since we learn dragons eat magic) I knew an option for dealing with Joko could involve being eating by a dragon: Aurene was that dragon (which YOU CAN SEE around the battlefield), and you should know by now that what you see, she sees too, if the commander get in trouble, SHE WILL know it and will come to his/her aid just like with Balthazar (but hey, that time she didn't save us, so no Deus Ex Machina there right?). Knowing all of this, If you keep getting that feeling then perphaps you should start to pay more attention to each npcs characteristics and traits, and then maybe you will stop using the term deus ex machina so loosely.

Ah, so before Joko or Aurene were even hinted that they would be characters in GW2, you just knew that.

I'm done, it's like your brains refuse to activate.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Plus, at this point, I would worry that Aurene can jump in from nowhere and eat ... the commander.

Aka the good ending to the story. :^)

[Tyson.5160]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Pax.3548 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:That is what you both are saying. You BOTH keep saying nothing else besides "she's an established character, so she can't be a Deus Ex Machina" when at no point in that term's history has it ever been said that. The whole POINT of the term is when something or someone just keeps popping up solving problems that otherwise would have no solutions, both Taimi and Aurene do that constantly by just popping up out of nowhere and either saving us from a situation we would clearly have failed otherwise or by providing solutions out of nowhere. Hell, Aurene literally just flies in and eats Joko of all people [decently sized, aggressive crystal dragon here, clearly a master of stealth].

Thats not deux machina, From years before (since we learn dragons eat magic) I knew an option for dealing with Joko could involve being eating by a dragon: Aurene was that dragon (which YOU CAN SEE around the battlefield), and you should know by now that what you see, she sees too, if the commander get in trouble, SHE WILL know it and will come to his/her aid just like with Balthazar (but hey, that time she didn't save us, so no Deus Ex Machina there right?). Knowing all of this, If you keep getting that feeling then perphaps you should start to pay more attention to each npcs characteristics and traits, and then maybe you will stop using the term deus ex machina so loosely.

Ah, so before Joko or Aurene were even hinted that they would be characters in GW2, you just knew that.

I'm done, it's like your brains refuse to activate.

You seem to keep ignoring all of castle’s evidence... Just looking for a bit of conflict?

[Michram.6853]

Deus ex Machina is not something bad, but it should be used when the writers really cant find any other solution to make the story to go forward.

Anet's writers do not really use this concept, but they are really close to do so.

We can still explain Aurene's appearance in the final instance- seeing what she sees and I guess in reverse, but the problem is they handled the whole ending (after Joko's speech) very bad.

As I wrote before- I'd understand if she would jump in from the windows, and such ridiculous reactions of the characters...

That ending was MONUMENTALLY bad.

[Michram.6853]

(Dont get me wrong- I had not any expectation as you could see in my posts before the episode launched, but I am just very upset that your feedbacks and very well created scenarios meant NOTHING to the writers.)

"We check the lore forums to see what people would like to see"- yeah... They proved they DO NOT care about the players.

And then they say that Joko wasnt meant to be a main villain... Wow.

I will never forget that, they did the same thing in Flashpoint, we called it (a bit not correctly) Taimi ex Machina.

I liked the episode, I did, but I wanted my other sceptical part of me to lose- the one that said: god, so many funny dialogues, no seriousness in the story, and when it is then everything must be destroyed by Taimi or Gorrik.

I saw the post about Taimi and the OP wanted her to die- I agree completely, and when I saw G. Gaile's post that the characters shouldnt be killed cos the ppl want it to have some thrills, I was left speechless....

Game of Thrones or World of Warcraft or any other normal game/movie do not care if the main character dies at the beginning or in the end.

Thrills are very important on the story, and the writers shouldnt just keep a character alive because he is liked.

I am sad Taimi still lives, without Angel McCoy- the original writer of her- this character is meaningless.

Also can we start an episode without Taimi? Does she have to be everywhere?

PoF story was soo much better without Taimi and her annoying comments sounding like a little bee.

I am not starting to complain about everything because I can see that the story tries to be entertaining but such ridiculous things in it just kill the will to enjoy the story.

Imagine a new player that wants to interest in the story and sees the final scene in the episode when somebody eats somebody...

If I would begin the story in S4, I would never return to it.

I got interested in Personal Story because I felt it was serious, the two last chapters gave me such chills I will never forget. But seeing it slowly turning into a comedy comic makes me sad.