Why is killing the Elder Dragons bad again?

[Oglaf.1074]

I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

MAJOR SPOILERSIt doesn't remove magic from the world, it distributes too much into it. The Dragons work like energy reservoirs in a closed system.

Excess magic of any kind is toxic, especially arcane energy which is essentially radiation (Thaumanova, Crucible of Eternity), and some forms of magic are just plain unstable in high quantities - see the various magic-infused elementals, anomalies and singularities.

With just two dragons dead, ley lines are visible to the naked eye in Central Tyria, ley-line infused creatures are already rampaging across Elona, and that's just some of what we've seen so far..imagine if they were all gone. the planet would come apart at the ley-lines and explode like a dead star.

The Human Gods and the Bloodstones also hold magic in a similar way, which has also begun to be released. This is especially dangerous since in these cases, we're introducing external magic into the closed system of Tyria, stressing an already failing system.

"The energies are in continuous push-and-pull motion, perfectly balancing themselves to each other and the world. It is said by the Apostate that, "should the energies become imbalanced, the world will tilt and all beings will fall off it into the void"." - Wiki: The All

I hope this helps to explain things.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

[Alchimist.4738]

Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

[Randulf.7614]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Hannelore.8153 said:MAJOR SPOILERSIt doesn't remove magic from the world, it distributes too much into it. The Dragons work like energy reservoirs in a closed system.

Excess magic of any kind is toxic, especially arcane energy which is essentially radiation (Thaumanova, Crucible of Eternity), and some forms of magic are just plain unstable in high quantities - see the various magic-infused elementals, anomalies and singularities.

I hope this helps to explain things.

@"Alchimist.4738" said:Killing them releases too much energy in the world, consequently leading the world to tear itself apart, this is what we're seeing with the leyline anomalies.

Well, IF:

1. The Magic contained by the dragons + free magic contained in Tyria = constant and
2. All the magic in the system becoming free magic will destroy the world, THEN

It is obvious that for the forming of Tyria (the "birth" of the world) we can have the following scenarios:1. The magic belongs natively to Tyria but being too much the magic should destroy the world. And in this case the dragons appears. That means the dragons are older than Tyria. And the status of "force of nature" is not enough to describe them. They are much more gods. Real gods. A question remains: Did the dragons create Tyria? If YES, then our search is over. The Dragons are the real gods. If NO, that means they were created before Tyria with a purpose - to keep the world to not be destroyed by its own magic. In this case the creator of the Dragon is the true God (or Gods if the Creation was a collective act). Anyhow, in this scenario we have nothing to do. We should learn to live with the dragons without killing them. We can (in the best case) replace them with something playing the same role. Why this situation? Because the Dragons either created Tyria for them and the magic mechanism was designed to protect them OR they were created with the purpose of keeping the balance of magic.

2. The magic does not belong to Tyria and it was brought at one certain moment by someone or something (a cataclysm / event etc). Being so related with the cycle of magic, that means the dragons does not belong to Tyria either. They come in Tyria after the world formed. And started to do what we know - gathering the magic when active then releasing it when sleeping. In this case we have a new option: To find a way to gather the excess of magic and to release it to where it initially come: In the Mist / Space / .... etc. This opens the possibility to kill the dragons.

In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

[perilisk.1874]

If the amount of magic in Tyria is constant, that raises the question of how Tyria ever survived long enough for the Elder Dragons to be born, unless they replaced a pre-existing system of balance. I guess Anet could argue that the dragons actually pre-date Tyria and were born in primordial chaos, but that's going to be a hard sell.

If it isn't constant and it's more a question of sources and sinks (with the dragons acting as sinks), then what are the sources?

[Oglaf.1074]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

[Randulf.7614]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

[Kalocin.5982]

To keep it simple, the Elder Dragons are sentient nuclear bombs. Putting them back to sleep is resetting their detonation timer.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

The elder dragons are both good are bad.

They keep magic flowing and prevent magic from overflowing the environment so there isn't too much ambient magic all over the world. When that fails, you get horrible environmental disasters and ley-infested creatures that see hallucinations and attack everything on sight.

But they also hog too much magic in one go, depleting the world of magic and destroying and killing anything in their path.

The Vigil just wanted to destroy them. Which is a very bad idea alone.

The Order of Whispers believe that killing them was simply impossible, and that the only option was putting them back to sleep.

And the Durmand Priory knew that killing them was a bad idea, but that leaving them alive was worse, so they had to be eliminated. We later learn they had contacts with Glint's legacy through Ogden. But apparently any information on Glint's plan was super-duper top secret.

In Kesho we learn the specifics of the plan, but we also learn that those who started it are gone, corrupted by Kralkatorrik.

The solution now is replacing them with entities that will not absorb magic until they are full, and then slowly release it, but with entities that will be constantly absorving and releasing magic, keeping it flowing at a steady amount of magic in the ambient and preventing it from overflowing.

The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.SPOILERSAs per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

[Invidia.9074]

I wonder if it has to be a draconic replacement. Maybe a properly tweaked Bloodstone could fill the role? That would make it definitely easier...

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Oglaf.1074" said:I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

Sure, again the Asura civilization might not survive without magic but the rest should. Both human and Charr have rudimentary technology not based on magic, and Norns don’t particularly use either. Sylvari... I don’t know. But like Asura they’d be taken in by the other races I’m sure.

So in the end you’ll just end up with a bit more primitive world (until the races adapt and make real technology to compensate) without the threat of Dragons. Plus wouldn’t magic going bye bye also take care of super-magical jerks like Joko?

it's not just a matter of magic balance, Taimi's simulation showed Tyria "breaking" suggesting that the world will be destroyed.

also the vision provided by Eye of Janthir suggests a cataclysm.

[Oglaf.1074]

Haha, thanks for the replies everyone. Can't believe how many plot points I've flat out forgotten...!

[Alga.6498]

Spoilers

At some point all of the Elder Dragons need to be killed. They are still a huge treat against all living being in Tyria.

What we need is something that could suck in all of these overflowing magic so it wont destroy anything more.

Since Jormag and Primordus falled back to sleep once again and we still know nothing about the Deep Sea Dragon, Slebbub, if she/he are awaken or still sleeping.Kralkatorrik needs to be taken down ASAP since he's so powerful now after sucking in Balthazar's overflown magic after we defeated him in Elona.

Pretty sure the Living World S4 ending will be awesome, ??

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Oglaf.1074 said:I mean, yeah yeah it will mess with all the naturally-occurring magic on Tyria but what’s really bad about that?

Imagine you have a table, and on that table is a bowl filled with water.In this example, the Elder Dragons are the six legs of the table; the bowl of water is magic.Cut off some table legs. What happens?

One big goddamned mess.

@Oglaf.1074 said:Now, of course the people of Tyria are used to magic being a natural element of their world and have grown accustomed to it (Asura in particular) and fear losing it. But in the face the threat posed by the Dragons would it not be worth it?

Killing Elder Dragons doesn't remove magic. It adds it - too much of it.

To not use metaphors and to instead quote an NPC from Season 2:

Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

Thaumanova and Bloodstone Fen are perfect examples of "too much magic" in the world. And killing the Elder Dragons just keeps adding magic into the world. But that's just the surface problem. There is a second reason to not kill Elder Dragons: The All.

The All is literally the functionality of the world. And the Elder Dragons are an integal part of that system. Killing the Elder Dragons throws that system out of wack, resulting in the world dying off.

@Hannelore.8153 said:The Human Gods and the Bloodstones also hold magic in a similar way, which has also begun to be released. This is especially dangerous since in these cases, we're introducing external magic into the closed system of Tyria, stressing an already failing system.

The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

Besides, there's similarly nothing to say that Tyria's magic is a closed system. We see a multitude of rifts from the Mists, which would theoretically be adding magic into the world. It's entirely possible they or something else also removes magic (or magic suffers from entropy at a relatively equal rate to these rifts adding magic).

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:In my opinion, this unclear situation was created by the refuse of the developers / lore team to state their position regarding the formation of Tyria: It is Tyria created? Then the Creator(s) is/are the real God(s). And we can try to find a future for the story based on this statements.Or - Tyria formed by itself? In this case no God(s) is/are involved and we can focus on the best follow up of the story: The hunt of the remaining false gods. We know now that Kormir used a device to absorb Abadon's magic. That means the item has nothing divine - it was a product of advanced magic or advanced technology. I'm pretty sure the Assura can create something like that if necessary.

Everything traces its origins back to The Mists, and it's likely entire planets would too.

Just because there is no Abrahamic monotheistic god, doesn't mean all other gods are false. Similarly, Kormir did not use a "device" (I don't know where you got that from), she was literally given a magical blessing from the other five gods. A divine gift by a divine being is the only way for a mortal to absorb enough magic to become a god.

"The gods appeared to us and gave Kormir a special, secret blessing. We had hoped for more direct involvement in our battle against a god, but we held our heads high and charged into battle with our ultimate foe. We fought with all of our might, all of our power and passion. In the end, the god's gift to Kormir was indeed integral to our victory. At the moment of his death, Abaddon unleashed all of his pent-up power. With nowhere to go, this rogue power would have destroyed both the realm of Torment and Tyria. In a moment of heroism unmatched before or since, Kormir threw herself into the path of this dark power. The gift of the gods soaked up all that power and knowledge, however, turning Kormir into a goddess in her own right. Kormir sacrificed her mortal life to save us all and was reborn as the Goddess of Truth. Abaddon was dead, but there was still work to do. With Kormir's passing from the mortal realm, the duty falls to me to assist those in need. My future lies out there, on the road, fighting for justice and for truth."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Night_Falls

An asura cannot copy such a thing.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:The problem is, we only got one dragon to replace 6. We need more replacements.SPOILERSAs per "Tequatl Rising", Tequatl is slowly replacing Zhaitan (though this is not good), and the Pale Tree is likely also replacing Modremoth, as just like Glint she is a purified dragon champion who fans speculate one day has the ability to become an Elder Dragon-ish being herself.

Understanding this can help put Scarlet Briar's vision of the Eternal Alchemy into place.

Tequatl was replacing Zhaitan. He's canonically dead as of Season 1 (Rox even lugged its tail around after confirming the kill).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

I agree entirely. I think it has made the narrative somewhat more messy and the Dragons less interesting and less Eldritch as a result

I agree as well. Especially with how Zhaitan's domain in Orr really oozed Lovecraftian vibes and I loved it.

But on the other hand I completely understand Anet not wanting us to simply go on a killing spree and knocking the Dragons out one after another until they were all gone as well. They wanted to mix the story up wih a twist/hook like this and I commend them for it.

Yes I get that too. That's why (for me) it was so important to keep villains like Joko, LAzarus, Caudecus, Baelfire or any other of their invention at the forefront of the story, so the Dragons could be the force of nature in the background. That would be better for world building in my eyes too

I similarly agree. I think it was a bad move on ArenaNet's part to immediately kill off (or even put to sleep) an Elder Dragon. I feel like the first release should have focused on a lesser villain that was a threat to enough of the races (Ulgoth could have filled that role rather easily, since he was already hating on both norn and humans, and through the White Mantle could have pulled in Sinister Triad backing for a brief show of White Mantle, Nightmare Court, and Inquest hostilities (thus bringing in asura and sylvari seamlessly) without eliminating them entirely), and hadn't used Jormag to relocate the norn but instead have him and Zhaitan as distant, barely-felt threats just like Primordus was.

But what's done is done.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The Bloodstones don't add external magic into the system. It was made by taking magic in the world in the first place. And there's nothing that tells us the gods added magic to the system - even Abaddon's death was contained after a bit with little outbreak. Balthazar's death similarly didn't add (much?) external magic, as what got released was primarily (solely?) magic from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

I think your right with Balthazar as he didn’t introduce magic that wasn’t already there.

Abaddon on the other hand played a larger role with causing imbalance upon his death and his power being absorbed by Kormir.

According to Kormir in Facing the Truth:

Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

It seems Abaddon added additional magic to the magic pool in Tyria and apparently it wasn’t just a trickle of magic, but a surge of power which upended the balance of magic. Which is interesting into itself, because it seems Primordus gained some of Abaddon’s god magic too.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:What Kormir says isn't "Abaddon's magic surged into Tyria causing Primordus to stir". She's saying "the temporarily released but eventually fully contained magic (into me) magic was enough to make Primordus stir". There's a difference, and the difference lies in the prior sentence:

Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.

She contained any damage, but the risk of that damage had already triggered the secondary problem.

Besides all that, Abaddon wasn't killed near Tyria but in the heart of his own realm. His magic would have to travel to the outskirts of his realm to seep into Tyria. Furthermore, in the cinematic in GW1 we see all the magic get absorbed by Kormir anyways.

If Abaddon added any magic into Tyria, it would be via the stuff that forms into tormented remnants and what the djinn use to create jackals.

Except what was said next was that the surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria.

Upended: to turn something upside down, to change position, turn, spin, overturn

Overturn the balance of magic in Tyria? How could it do that, unless Abaddon’s magic was seeping in.

Hero: Abaddon is breaking up!Kormir: Incredible! All that knowledge!Hero: It's running wild! It will destroy everything!Kormir: I can contain the power—Hero: Kormir! No!

Before Abaddon was killed, magic was at balance, the dragon’s were there doing their job. When Abaddon was releasing his magic he caused Primordus to stir. What would make Primordus begin to stir? Magic. Just like how Scarlet sent a large dose of Leyline magic toward Mordremoth.

Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

@Tyson.5160 said:Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

Key word is that it would have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it didn't yet. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

[Tyson.5160]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I think you're taking things too literally, but to go with that literal route:

Magic was never really balanced (going from one extreme to another is hardly balancing; and GW1 was in the latter half but not at the extreme yet), and the dragons were not doing their job (nor do they seem to want to, as all of them seem to just want to eat as much magic as possible, for various goals, but are smart enough not to eat so much the world ends from lack of magic).

I mean, the whole fact that the Elder Dragons don't properly balance magic is the entire purpose of the multi-millennia long planning that is dubbed Glint's Legacy. Her line of "upending balance" could simply mean that it stirred the Elder Dragons sooner than they should have been - that would certainly be enough to mess with the already precarious balance of magic.

@Tyson.5160 said:Edit: The damage as stated by the Hero was that it would destroy everything and Kormir absorbed the damage, which would have ended the planet. Some of that magic would still seep out and power up Primordus. Would it be world ending amount of magic, no, but it would be enough to overturn the magical balance in Tyria as Kormir stated. Any magic that would have caused Primordus to stir, would been absorbed by the dragon.

Key word is that it

would

have reached the planet should it have exploded. But it

didn't yet

. There wasn't enough time before it all got absorbed beyond allowing Primordus to sense a sudden burst (then sudden disappearance) of magic.

I guess we have more plot clarification points for the next Ama, Konig, thank you for your discussion.

[Edelweiss.4261]

@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I'm still not the biggest fan of this direction Anet's taking the Elder Dragons. For the longest time, while we waited for gw2 to launch it was constantly hyped how the Dragons were going to be the big bad, these semi-Lovecraftian monsters that corrupted and destroyed all they came into contact with. Now they are, as Joko put it "the life force of this world" instead. I get that Anet's trying to make things more.....nuanced, but I just don't think this was the right direction.

If anything, making them so integral to existence only strengthens the ties to Lovecraft in how hopeless it is to struggle against them. What has ruined the Elder Dragons, in my opinion, is our ability to destroy them as well as Anet's characterization of Mordremoth. Mordremoth thought too much like a human to exist as a force of nature or cosmic entity. It's hard to fear Mordremoth as some unknowable monster when he is characterized as any other human villain. I just hope Anet won't repeat this mistake with the remaining Elder Dragons.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

don't worry they have the rest of the gods to call up one by one to turn into "human" villains when they think we're suffering from dragon fatigue