So many balance patches, but HAMMER remains as a cosmetic item

[Airdive.2613]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Now this is blatant speculation. You have literally no way of knowing that before you know the numbers.

True, but I don't need it. I have eyes.

Good for you. My eyes tell me it might just as well turn out to be a pistol, focus, scepter, warhorn, or shortbow. You get the idea.There's a reason why (ahem) "blind" experiments were invented in science: human brain tends to rely on the eyes too much.

[Pirindolo.9427]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Now this is blatant speculation. You have literally no way of knowing that before you know the numbers.

True, but I don't need it. I have eyes.

Good for you.

My

eyes tell me it might just as well turn out to be a pistol, focus, scepter, warhorn, or shortbow. You get the idea.There's a reason why (ahem) "blind" experiments were invented in science: human brain tends to rely on the eyes too much.

dude, go to check your eyes rapidly.Pistol: mandatory for condi engs and mirages, good for thievesFocus: mandatory for power mesmers and power DH/core guardiansWarhorn: Mandatory for druidsScepter: mandatory or good for so many class/buildsShortbow: mandatory for condi revs, condi soulbeasts, good for thieves.

[Airdive.2613]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Now this is blatant speculation. You have literally no way of knowing that before you know the numbers.

True, but I don't need it. I have eyes.

Good for you.

My

eyes tell me it might just as well turn out to be a pistol, focus, scepter, warhorn, or shortbow. You get the idea.There's a reason why (ahem) "blind" experiments were invented in science: human brain tends to rely on the eyes too much.

dude, go to check your eyes rapidly.Pistol: mandatory for condi engs and mirages, good for thievesFocus: mandatory for power mesmers and power DH/core guardiansWarhorn: Mandatory for druidsScepter: mandatory or good for so many class/buildsShortbow: mandatory for condi revs, condi soulbeasts, good for thieves.

You mean mandatory for the 1/10 fraction of the playerbase who could actually be bothered with browsing the meta websites?That doesn't make your claims any more relevant.

[Pirindolo.9427]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Now this is blatant speculation. You have literally no way of knowing that before you know the numbers.

True, but I don't need it. I have eyes.

Good for you.

My

eyes tell me it might just as well turn out to be a pistol, focus, scepter, warhorn, or shortbow. You get the idea.There's a reason why (ahem) "blind" experiments were invented in science: human brain tends to rely on the eyes too much.

dude, go to check your eyes rapidly.Pistol: mandatory for condi engs and mirages, good for thievesFocus: mandatory for power mesmers and power DH/core guardiansWarhorn: Mandatory for druidsScepter: mandatory or good for so many class/buildsShortbow: mandatory for condi revs, condi soulbeasts, good for thieves.

You mean mandatory for the 1/10 fraction of the playerbase who could actually be bothered with browsing the meta websites?That doesn't make your claims any more relevant.

Please, don't keep arguing because you want to, that's exactly the point of this thread:

All weapons except for hammer are best in slot for some (at least one always ) PVE classes/buildsAll weapons except for hammer are good for some PVE classes/builds (some of them, for many)

And this is what this thread is about. So yes, it makes my claim absolutely relevant. The problem is that you didn't understand my claim. If you like hammer, like I do, use it, but my claim is still the same and equally valid.

[Airdive.2613]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:All weapons except for hammer are good for some PVE classes/builds (some of them, for many)

Hammer is good for some PvE professions/builds, seeing as you can do every piece of content with it.

[Sarrs.4831]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:Does anyone ever use it as an everyday weapon in fractals, dungeons, or even open world PVE?

Yeah, Guardian hammer PvE is quite solid. Permanent protection & pulsing healing for any melee standing in your squiggles is really quite good.

@Pirindolo.9427 said:Please, don't keep arguing because you want to, that's exactly the point of this thread:

All weapons except for hammer are best in slot for some (at least one always ) PVE classes/buildsAll weapons except for hammer are good for some PVE classes/builds (some of them, for many)

And this is what this thread is about. So yes, it makes my claim absolutely relevant. The problem is that you didn't understand my claim. If you like hammer, like I do, use it, but my claim is still the same and equally valid.

You've completely moved the goalposts mate. I don't think they're even on the same pitch.

[otto.5684]

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Those numbers wouldn't mean anything, because all single player content funnels you into using a 90-100% DPS build, which is not what hammer was meant to be. Have you ever tried clearing solo content with a full blown healer/support build? Does that mean ranger staff is in need of change? Weapons have different uses, and it's not all about DPS, even if lazy design since the introduction of raids persists in every aspect of PvE now.

Using staff on ranger is one of the main builds in raids/PvE as support/healer. However, what exactly does hammer on guardian do? It is a dps weapon, designed to deal damage. Same with hammer on warrior and engi. Do they deal enough damage to be considered? No. Do they provide sufficient support in any game mode to be considered for support or heal build? No. Is there any benefit to using them over other weapons in solo PvE. Again no.

So beside a niche builds in sPvP or WvW, what the fuck is hammer supposed to do?

Note, I do not expect every weapon to only provide dps. Weapons that are designed primarily as dps, must provide enough sufficient dps in PvE.

[Oglaf.1074]

If Merciless Hammer is anything to go by, Anet themselves don't seem to know what they want the Hammer to actually be doing...

[Sarrs.4831]

@Oglaf.1074 said:If Merciless Hammer is anything to go by, Anet themselves don't seem to know what they want the Hammer to actually be doing...

Merciless Hammer is two traits rolled into one. You are not supposed to necessarily take Merciless Hammer because you are even using a hammer - You are supposed to take Merciless Hammer because you plan to apply a lot of controls and interrupts using Physical skills, and using Body Blow for condition application, and maybe using daggers, maces, offhand shield or the hammer. You should not take Merciless Hammer as a Power Hammer user; you should take Berserker's Power.

[Airdive.2613]

@otto.5684 said:It is a dps weapon, designed to deal damage. Same with hammer on warrior and engi. Do they deal enough damage to be considered? No. Do they provide sufficient support in any game mode to be considered for support or heal build? No. Is there any benefit to using them over other weapons in solo PvE. Again no.

What makes you think so? It seems to me that the hammer in these cases is a control/sustain weapon. As I mentioned earlier, each of the three cases provides a fair amount of control while also allowing some damage mitigation (guardian) and self-defence (scrapper).

[Oglaf.1074]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:If Merciless Hammer is anything to go by, Anet themselves don't seem to know what they want the Hammer to actually be doing...

Merciless Hammer is two traits rolled into one. You are not supposed to necessarily take Merciless Hammer because you are even using a hammer - You are supposed to take Merciless Hammer because you plan to apply a lot of controls and interrupts using Physical skills, and using Body Blow for condition application, and maybe using daggers, maces, offhand shield or the hammer. You

should not take

Merciless Hammer as a Power Hammer user; you should take Berserker's Power.

Except that it is friggin' called Merciless Hammer.

They clearly have no clue what to do with Warrior Hammer. Confusion on a Power-based weapon? Yeah, funny joke.

[infrequentia.3465]

@otto.5684 said:

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Those numbers wouldn't mean anything, because all single player content funnels you into using a 90-100% DPS build, which is not what hammer was meant to be. Have you ever tried clearing solo content with a full blown healer/support build? Does that mean ranger staff is in need of change? Weapons have different uses, and it's not all about DPS, even if lazy design since the introduction of raids persists in every aspect of PvE now.

Using staff on ranger is one of the main builds in raids/PvE as support/healer. However, what exactly does hammer on guardian do? It is a dps weapon, designed to deal damage. Same with hammer on warrior and engi. Do they deal enough damage to be considered? No. Do they provide sufficient support in any game mode to be considered for support or heal build? No. Is there any benefit to using them over other weapons in solo PvE. Again no.

So beside a niche builds in sPvP or WvW, what the kitten is hammer supposed to do?

Note, I do not expect every weapon to only provide dps. Weapons that are designed primarily as dps,

must

provide enough sufficient dps in PvE.

hammer is as much a dps weapon as staff is for gaurdians

its a utility weapon and it does that well, no changes needed its a weapon thats in a good place thats not meant to dps.

when the hammer does more dps then a dps weapon THATS when you need to check the game cause its unbalanced then

[Obtena.7952]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:If we coul know the number of ppl using each weapon in PVE, we would see that hammer is by far the least used one.

Now this is blatant speculation. You have literally no way of knowing that before you know the numbers.

True, but I don't need it. I have eyes.

What you're eyes tell you is not objective measure of what is real. The fact is that it's irrelevant how many people use hammer. There is no relationship between the number of people using a weapon and that weapon needing a buff.

[Huskyboy.1053]

@otto.5684 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@otto.5684 said:Speaking purely from PvE, hammer is only viable for reverant, and only in ow. you can use it on warrior, gurdian and engi, but why punish yourself that bad

☹️

.

PvP, it is okaish for gurdian, good for rev in wvw and a maybe on scrapper.

Overall, it is a terrible weapon with limited use ability.

Exactly my point. You can use it if you like it, for fun, for cosmetic reasons,... but never for dps, which is far beyond so many other weapon choices

I 100% agree with you. Hammer is one of the poorest weapons in the game.

Haven't I seen you playing Guardian in sPvP? You know this isn't true, Hammer Guard is fantastic, A-tier if not S-tier. Scrapper is still a little bit behind FB for ATs but it's basically on-par with FB in ranked queues, Function Gyro, Sneak Gyro, and Purity of Purpose offer support capabilities that FB can't match. Other than that there's no other popular sPvP builds that use Hammer.

In terms of frequently-played builds (so not including dead ones like FA ele) which use Hammer, there are more than Warhorn, Mace, Pistol, and Scepter, and it's on-par with Focus, Torch, Rifle, and Longbow. I can list out those builds if you like. It's not a poor weapon in sPvP, it's great in certain builds, and pretty average in terms of how often it appears in popular builds.

[TexZero.7910]

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:If Merciless Hammer is anything to go by, Anet themselves don't seem to know what they want the Hammer to actually be doing...

Merciless Hammer is two traits rolled into one. You are not supposed to necessarily take Merciless Hammer because you are even using a hammer - You are supposed to take Merciless Hammer because you plan to apply a lot of controls and interrupts using Physical skills, and using Body Blow for condition application, and maybe using daggers, maces, offhand shield or the hammer. You

should not take

Merciless Hammer as a Power Hammer user; you should take Berserker's Power.

Except that it is friggin' called Merciless Hammer.

They clearly have no clue what to do with Warrior Hammer. Confusion on a Power-based weapon? Yeah, funny joke.

It used to be quite good back when perplexity (runes) were easier to trigger. That extra long duration confusion allowed you to cover weakness which made its use in dueling really potent.

[Oglaf.1074]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:If Merciless Hammer is anything to go by, Anet themselves don't seem to know what they want the Hammer to actually be doing...

Merciless Hammer is two traits rolled into one. You are not supposed to necessarily take Merciless Hammer because you are even using a hammer - You are supposed to take Merciless Hammer because you plan to apply a lot of controls and interrupts using Physical skills, and using Body Blow for condition application, and maybe using daggers, maces, offhand shield or the hammer. You

should not take

Merciless Hammer as a Power Hammer user; you should take Berserker's Power.

Except that it is friggin' called Merciless Hammer.

They clearly have no clue what to do with Warrior Hammer. Confusion on a Power-based weapon? Yeah, funny joke.

It used to be quite good back when perplexity (runes) were easier to trigger. That extra long duration confusion allowed you to cover weakness which made its use in dueling really potent.

Then split it in PvE to make it not one of (if not THE) worst trait in the game.

[TexZero.7910]

@Oglaf.1074 said:Then split it in PvE to make it not one of (if not THE) worst trait in the game.

It used to be far worse, it had no confusion to start and when that was added it only worked on hammer skills for a while until it was fixed to be all interrupts. It's also not the worst trait in the game. There's a few notable shout-outs Pyromancer's Puissance, Stop, Drop, and Roll from ele alone should tell just how bad your choice could actually be.

[Oglaf.1074]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Oglaf.1074 said:Then split it in PvE to make it not one of (if not THE) worst trait in the game.

It used to be far worse, it had no confusion to start and when that was added it only worked on hammer skills for a while until it was fixed to be all interrupts. It's also not the worst trait in the game. There's a few notable shout-outs Pyromancer's Puissance, Stop, Drop, and Roll from ele alone should tell just how bad your choice could actually be.

Mmm. No, I'd still argue it is possibly the worst trait in the game. Mostly because of how inherently useless and counter-intuitive it is to the weapon it is supposed to be created for, as well as the two other amazing traits it has to compete with.

Oh and also being a Grandmaster-tier trait.

[otto.5684]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@otto.5684 said:It is a dps weapon, designed to deal damage. Same with hammer on warrior and engi. Do they deal enough damage to be considered? No. Do they provide sufficient support in any game mode to be considered for support or heal build? No. Is there any benefit to using them over other weapons in solo PvE. Again no.

What makes you think so? It seems to me that the hammer in these cases is a control/sustain weapon. As I mentioned earlier, each of the three cases provides a fair amount of control while also allowing some damage mitigation (guardian) and self-defence (scrapper).

Hammer is not sustain weapon in any build by any stretch, especially for guardian. Scepter has a root and sword has a blind. Are these defensive weapons too? In addition, while having and additional skill to break bars is cool, there is no such thing as control weapon PvE.

@Huskyboy.1053 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:

@otto.5684 said:Speaking purely from PvE, hammer is only viable for reverant, and only in ow. you can use it on warrior, gurdian and engi, but why punish yourself that bad

☹️

.

PvP, it is okaish for gurdian, good for rev in wvw and a maybe on scrapper.

Overall, it is a terrible weapon with limited use ability.

Exactly my point. You can use it if you like it, for fun, for cosmetic reasons,... but never for dps, which is far beyond so many other weapon choices

I 100% agree with you. Hammer is one of the poorest weapons in the game.

Haven't I seen you playing Guardian in sPvP? You know this isn't true,

Hammer Guard

is fantastic, A-tier if not S-tier.

Scrapper

is still a little bit behind FB for ATs but it's basically on-par with FB in ranked queues,

Function Gyro

,

Sneak Gyro

, and

Purity of Purpose

offer support capabilities that FB can't match. Other than that there's no other popular sPvP builds that use Hammer.

In terms of frequently-played builds (so not including dead ones like FA ele) which use Hammer, there are more than Warhorn, Mace, Pistol, and Scepter, and it's on-par with Focus, Torch, Rifle, and Longbow. I can list out those builds if you like. It's not a poor weapon in sPvP, it's great in certain builds, and pretty average in terms of how often it appears in popular builds.

The focus of the discussion is on PvE. Even in sPvP, hammer is meh. Guardian probably have the best use for it, but the guardian core build is B tier at best. It probably is strongest on Rev in WvW. And by no means hammer is the only weapon with limited use in PvE. Rifle, warhorn and LB are probably worse.

[Airdive.2613]

@otto.5684 said:Hammer is not sustain weapon in any build by any stretch, especially for guardian.

Hammer's autoattack gives AoE protection, hammer's 2 self-comboes for area cleanse, hammer's 5 can be used defensively. It is inherently able to enhance your party's sustain which is what I meant.

[Pirindolo.9427]

Whatever a (PVE) Hammer can do in terms of DPS, CC, etc, there are always better weapon options (in most cases way better options, and in some cases many better options).I don't say to make Hammer overpowered, just to make it a top choice for 1 or 2 class/builds and good for 1 or 2 other class/builds, like it happens with any other (PVE) weapon.

[infrequentia.3465]

@Pirindolo.9427 said:Whatever a (PVE) Hammer can do in terms of DPS, CC, etc, there are always better weapon options (in most cases way better options, and in some cases many better options).I don't say to make Hammer overpowered, just to make it a top choice for 1 or 2 class/builds and good for 1 or 2 other class/builds, like it happens with any other (PVE) weapon.

theres no weapon that can do what a hammer does better in CC

it is Top on power rev so theres 1 classits good on gaurdian on support role ( perma protection + root)

[Pirindolo.9427]

@infrequentia.3465 said:

@Pirindolo.9427 said:Whatever a (PVE) Hammer can do in terms of DPS, CC, etc, there are always better weapon options (in most cases way better options, and in some cases many better options).I don't say to make Hammer overpowered, just to make it a top choice for 1 or 2 class/builds and good for 1 or 2 other class/builds, like it happens with any other (PVE) weapon.

theres no weapon that can do what a hammer does better in CC

it is Top on power rev so theres 1 classits good on gaurdian on support role ( perma protection + root)

Nope, hammer as CC is mediocre. In the case of warrior (I guess you talk about it) mace-mace is way, way betterNope, is is not (and by far) top power revenant weapon. Top are sword/sword, and then others. Hammer is a slow, ranged, power revenant weapon. And if you play a power revenant as ranged...

[Ayakaru.6583]

OP, Warrior.Warrior, OP.Now go be buddies