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Hi everyone I hope that you will not be discourage by the longer of this post but we need to talk about people always complaining in profession forum.

I main Thief so I mainly look at Thief forum, General discussion and Reddit and after the last balance patch I saw some reaction that I find so selfish that I want to talk about it and try to understand.

First Thief forumBefore last balance patch, a thread was up for DE rework feedback. In this thread many people were just complaining about how DE was useless and did 0 damage and they were disappointed because they bought PoF for this spec. Other more constructive post write some idea for changes that were pretty good. After few days people start being more agressive because no devs answered and said that anet dev never listen to the community.After the patch we can clearly say that balance team listened to player because a lot of the player changed proposals were implemented in this patch. But still people are complaining because condi thief get some nerf. Ok I don't play condi but I play power DE (d/d or rifle) but come on !! Can you take this has a win we saw that our feedback matter and they were sad to let thief and specially DE in the shadow.

Now let's talk about what I saw on Reddit and balance patch discussion.Before the patch people playing other class just didn't care that thief was in a ok spot where he was accepted in Raid and co but just on the edge of falling in circle of the forgotten. After the patch probably the same people start complaining because DE had a buff that put him in interesting spot, DPS speaking, for raid and also because some OP class got nerf. Just to be clear I understand that thief rotation, no matter what build we use, won't be as complex as other class can have and ok DE is a range class if you use rifle. But some aspect of DE make the rotation easy to fail because with rifle you use roll as a DPS tool and for d/d you are squishy and melee so dodge with roll or skill 3 can make you loose DPS. When you look at other class, elem is range but still his the best DPS class in the game and he has AOE that thief doesn't have. Mesmer and guardian are good in many way. Guardian can kind of tank, can support and DPS. Mesmer too.

So ok I can understand that Thief is less complex than piano class but for sure it's more complex than most people think. So please if your class is still wanted in every content, let us (thief player) enjoy this buff and finally get access more easily to raid and other endgame stuff. Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS and we still have to learn many thing to pull out the best of our profession.

Don't forget that everyone want something different and the devs are doing their best to find a way for everyone to be happy.

I want to end this post by a big Thanks to the dev for their work and I hope everyone will start loving each other no matter what profession other play and stop being selfish and wanting their profession to be OP for every content.

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@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS more reliably because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the slight dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

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+1 from my side. These days people will complain about everything... Bad or good nerf/patch/class etc...u just need to understand that its just natural. Some people will accept and play game, some will quit or just cry about this, drag game down and make lies about how bad game is. Each time, in each game have something like this. u cant satisfy 1 group of people and think that another group of people will feel the same. Its a challenge... ur doing something to make game better/different/more complex or u dont do anything. I think if DEVs will make something new/different this will be always better.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

I understand your point but I think you quote the wrong part of my post.Yes DE can now be choosen more often but this don't change your DPS, it's just change the number of choice people have when they need to choose the profession that DPS in the group. And that is a good point for diversity in the game.And I'm not an expert but I think Elem can bring more than just DPS so they won't be rejected like thief was but I might be wrong.

And I will say it again but pulling max DPS with DE rifle is not that easy and same for d/d DE that is a squishy melee DPS. As someone said in Thief Forum, High risk, high reward.Not everything as to be High complexity High Reward.For me high complexity class have always been in the top of the meta.

It's kind of like people that they football player earn to much money just by shooting in a ball. Ok they probably earn to much money but if they don't that won't solve poverty in the world or other sad situation in the world.

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@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:And I'm not an expert but I think Elem can bring more than just DPS so they won't be rejected like thief was but I might be wrong.

No, we can't.

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:And I will say it again but pulling max DPS with DE rifle is not that easy and same for d/d DE that is a squishy melee DPS. As someone said in Thief Forum, High risk, high reward.

Sure, but it is still much easier, and much less risky, than playing a weaver. For higher reward. Something is obviously off here.

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@"oOAvengerOo.6714" said:

I understand your point but I think you quote the wrong part of my post.Yes DE can now be choosen more often but this don't change your DPS, it's just change the number of choice people have when they need to choose the profession that DPS in the group. And that is a good point for diversity in the game.And I'm not an expert but I think Elem can bring more than just DPS so they won't be rejected like thief was but I might be wrong.

And I will say it again but pulling max DPS with DE rifle is not that easy and same for d/d DE that is a squishy melee DPS. As someone said in Thief Forum, High risk, high reward.Not everything as to be High complexity High Reward.For me high complexity class have always been in the top of the meta.

It's kind of like people that they football player earn to much money just by shooting in a ball. Ok they probably earn to much money but if they don't that won't solve poverty in the world or other sad situation in the world.

First off this line:"And I'm not an expert but I think Elem can bring more than just DPS so they won't be rejected like thief was but I might be wrong."It is unfortunate to say but Elementalist is not strong in any other form than DPS right now. Sure you can have Tempest but why bother if you can have Druid which can do the job Tempest can even easier? And because of this most people fear that they will be thrown out because sure you can do 40k DPS but why bother with you when there are classes which can do that easier now?

The major problem is that you just fell into the same trap as the people you are complaining about. You don't know the class you are trying to compare a class you are experienced with (in this case Thief) with a class you are not experienced with (and might be you haven't played with) (Elementalist).

The elementalist mains are now angry because they have already a complex rotation to follow where you only need to do one mistake or just get your conjure weapon taken away and poof your hard work is all for nothing.

People should really start playing a character they think is unfair before throwing judgement on them. The popular opinion of the masses are that balance devs don't listen. They do listen but too many players complain about a class they do not know anything about giving false feedback and making balancing a hell to do.

So my opinion on this would be that a player should experience a class themselves before they would compare it to an other one.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't fck up your rotation

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For sure I didn't play Elem enough to do raid and I know that the rotation is complex and apologize for the mistake on "Elem can do other thing than dps". Actually even with many hours on my thief I didn't do raid because I know how people feel about Thief in raid, how selfish this class is and bring nothing to the group. But I think I play GW2 enough to talk about how thief was consider in content like raid for too long.

And I'm not saying that all nerf on OP class were needed but I sincerely think that it open a door for playing DE in raid.Like I said I agree on the fact that some people can be tempted to pick a thief instead of elem. But I think because people like complexity et like Elem in general, raiding "leader" will know that if you still play Elem it's because you don't mess with your rotation otherwise you will play DE. I really don't think this will exclude Elem from raid so it's a big win for DE and a little lose for Elem that will this their holy slot taken by DE in some raid. I even think that you will have more raid squad because more class will be "allowed" in this content.

In future post I will try to only make argument with what I know the most about (Thief) but I had no other choice than talking about other profession to start the conversation. But I think because I didn't talk of other profession in negative way but more about the negativity of some player I couldn't go wrong (even if I did a bit with the Elem multi task thing).

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Forum posts need to be taken with a pinch of salt (no pun intended). Generally speaking people will be more vocal about a subject they have an issue with than things they are happy about.Those who were lamenting the nerfs in the last patch will not say anything about this patch even when the positive changes they wanted are being implemented.

Happy people don't make as much noise as unhappy ones.

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I will just add that I try all the profession in the game with more or less success but I always came back to Thief because I don't find the dynamism, fast paced gameplay in other profession than Thief. We can say that unfortunately Thief is more a PvP profession but is it fair not to be able to do raid because you play the profession you like and this one is not in the top metabattle/SC/whatever short list for raid. Of course the simple et maybe obvious answer is find a guild to raid with but I don't want to feel like a burden for my guild because my profession is underperforming in this content and I can't really do anything about it.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

Sounds like a raid design issue not a class balance issue. And they already said the next raid is done. Perhaps this might be something valued more in the future.

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@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

Sounds like a raid design issue not a class balance issue. And they already said the next raid is done. Perhaps this might be something valued more in the future.

Nah, not really. Fighting trash isn't very interesting. It works as an addition to the fight. It could work even as a main focus, on a chosen specific fight. But it shouldn't be something that's always present everywhere.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

This is entirely true and I'm glad this is the first response so everyone will read it. To add a DE just auto attacking and pressing F1 on cool down will do more damage than most other classes doing the same.

Why does this matter? Well if all you're doing is pressing 2 buttons and doing more than enough dps to clear a raid and pull your weight you can divert more attention to mechanics, not going down to mechanics means less downstate so higher dps for the group.

Honestly there is literally no reason to not run DE if you're a pug or new to raiding, you can get more experienced players to bring the cleave dps and they shouldn't have to worry too much about you having 2 hams instead of hands.

Edit: People saying weaver rotation is hard, it's not hard any more. What you mean is weaver rotation is easily disrupted which punishes it much harder. Don't mistake difficulty with punishing.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

Sounds like a raid design issue not a class balance issue. And they already said the next raid is done. Perhaps this might be something valued more in the future.

Nah, not really. Fighting trash isn't very interesting. It works as an addition to the fight. It could work even as a main focus, on a chosen specific fight. But it shouldn't be something that's always present everywhere.

You're very right on that! I think what I was imagining is something like in WoW raids. Some fights are very aoe heavy and some are very single target heavy. Some fights have a lot of movement mechanics than others. I like the idea of different classes excelling in different areas that are present throughout a raid. It mixed things up and let's others shine from time to time. Not just oh bring eles because they are the highest damage every time. Lately it's been 2 classes. If its single target bring eles and if theres an add bring a couple epidemics.

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@apharma.3741 said:Edit: People saying weaver rotation is hard, it's not hard any more. What you mean is weaver rotation is easily disrupted which punishes it much harder. Don't mistake difficulty with punishing.

Yeah, as if severely nerfing the damage output wasn't enough, they dumbed down the enjoyable rotation and made it a lot blander. But it is still susceptible to interrupts so it is still a greater risk/liability.

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I already admit that because of raid squad leader are idiot, they will always pick the most safe choice for each slot.Now I will try to make one step in your direction hoping that people who want DE to be nerf will make one step in Thief defense side.I won't be mad if anet decide to nerf DE damage (specially d/d). But they will need to find how far they have to nerf it. Because if they nerf damage to much, thief will be back in the rejected circle.So I want to ask, if DE DPS was slightly under Elem DPS let's 1k ou 2k behind to reward elem complexity (rotation + squishy) do you think it's good ? By good I mean DE and elem can both have a spot in raid and neither of them will be rejected.

Now I want to talk about Thief design. If we go in the way that more complex more dps, how can thief ever be useful ? Rotation will never be complex with the initiative/0CD mechanism. So do they need full rework and by full I mean almost restart from scratch or do they nerf thief to the ground because rotation is easy and people who enjoy thief (yes you can enjoy class with easy rotation not everyone find that boring) can quit GW2 if they want to raid or fractal because they will never be accepted ?

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@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:I already admit that because of raid squad leader are idiot, they will always pick the most safe choice for each slot.why are they idiots for picking the most safe choice? if you dont get a good group, you easily can waste more time looking for new people as replacement then you do actually doing the raid, cause people leave if you dont get everything done first try. so its better to take only the most safe choices to make sure you only need one attempt. its just more efficient time management.

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i will say this hear that the ele is way more balanced and vercitile then the thief so its always going to get the pick over them but the question is why. in any other game the thief is to be best single target dps but the mage/ ele is to be best aoe dmage so yes in the way the game is in gw2 ele can be best for aoe, single target, and even suport that makes the ele way better then the thief by far. now when it comes to thief we are the third best for dps and that is about it unless you do dungons then you want us for stealth. if you look the stuff do not add up on this if all other games have the thief/rogue have the best dps then why is it in this game the dps is so low for this class in gw2. this is why peps are on the forums and why they want it like all other games. when this game first relesed yes thief was in it rightfull spot were a good placed backstabe could oneshot peps i did like 20k on a gurdion in a bubale at that time and i was like this is a rogue so mutch fun then they just keep nerfing the thief but then look at the ele. ele has had some nerfs but they were justafyed so i wont complane thare but they keep geting buffes but yet the thief the one that is to be best stdps is geting nerfs almost all the time. this is were the issue is for the forum were some classes are geting consistint nerfs and others are even in nerfs and buffs but some seem to be geting buffs most of the time that is why the forum are in this state becosue stuff is not being balanced right for the most part and that is why peps are complaning on the forum. now its hard to find what is liget and what is jsut trolling.

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@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:I already admit that because of raid squad leader are idiot, they will always pick the most safe choice for each slot.Now I will try to make one step in your direction hoping that people who want DE to be nerf will make one step in Thief defense side.I won't be mad if anet decide to nerf DE damage (specially d/d). But they will need to find how far they have to nerf it. Because if they nerf damage to much, thief will be back in the rejected circle.So I want to ask, if DE DPS was slightly under Elem DPS let's 1k ou 2k behind to reward elem complexity (rotation + squishy) do you think it's good ? By good I mean DE and elem can both have a spot in raid and neither of them will be rejected.

Now I want to talk about Thief design. If we go in the way that more complex more dps, how can thief ever be useful ? Rotation will never be complex with the initiative/0CD mechanism. So do they need full rework and by full I mean almost restart from scratch or do they nerf thief to the ground because rotation is easy and people who enjoy thief (yes you can enjoy class with easy rotation not everyone find that boring) can quit GW2 if they want to raid or fractal because they will never be accepted ?

1-2k difference will probably still end up with elementalists not being wanted. Potential is too close, when you factor in the greater risk of taking the ele the thief will still be the safer choice. Much like condi engis back when. Ideally, thieves can excel in different fights. Like, you prefer to have a weaver on Gorseval, but you prefer a theif on Sabetha. Unfortunately, the hitbox dependency is something ANet is actively removing, so I don't think this is very likely to happen. The way I see it, eles are going to be a niche pick for ad-heavy bosses, so Xera and Sloth. Maybe still on KC if their opening burst is higher.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:I already admit that because of raid squad leader are idiot, they will always pick the most safe choice for each slot.why are they idiots for picking the most safe choice? if you dont get a good group, you easily can waste more time looking for new people as replacement then you do actually doing the raid, cause people leave if you dont get everything done first try. so its better to take only the most safe choices to make sure you only need one attempt. its just more efficient time management.

I would say they are idiots because there is a difference between being time efficient and just finish the raid. I know that people try hard and always try to optimize everything but I don't know if you notice but lately we have a lot of new player or returning player that want to try raid for the first time because they like GW2 and want to try every content.I know that guild can help you for a more slow and learning kind of raid but come on Gw2 is not a race game. We already have to use special build for raid and some class don't have many raid viable build. So if we start rejecting class with viable build because it will take 1 more minute than if you pick the more opti class this become a non friendly game and it's not my vision of GW2 and don't want to quit just to let this people think they are right.

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't kitten up your rotation

Where did you see this rotation? if it against a Golem does that in fact translate over to a boss fight?

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