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@Feanor.2358 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:And I'm not an expert but I think Elem can bring more than just DPS so they won't be rejected like thief was but I might be wrong.

No, we can't.

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:And I will say it again but pulling max DPS with DE rifle is not that easy and same for d/d DE that is a squishy melee DPS. As someone said in Thief Forum, High risk, high reward.

Sure, but it is still much easier, and much less risky, than playing a weaver. For higher reward. Something is obviously off here.

To play the Rifle build you have to sacrifice your elite, your heal and your f2 just to stealth often enough to maintain your rotation. Dodging alone isn't enough... and if you don't sacrifice those, you pretty much immediately drop about 10k DPS. That means that the thief not only HAS to be immobile as a necessity to the class pick, it also has to burn its heal to stealth so it won't be there to actually heal it, and burn its elite to stealth so it won't contribute to CC, and burn its f2 to stealth so it won't be contributing to support either with boon-share. The D/D thief is prolly too high because it is actually a 2 button rotation, but the Rifle thief offers nothing but damage, and sacrifices everything to do it. It's not less risky.

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@babazhook.6805 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't kitten up your rotation

Where did you see this rotation? if it against a Golem does that in fact translate over to a boss fight?

The D/D rotation doesn't hit 40k... only the Rifle one does, and you sacrifice everything to pull it off... mobility, heal, elite, even your F2 has to be strategically timed to give you enough stealth or immediately drop 10k DPS.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

There are other fights where DE is bad for other reasons though. Sab is one example... the fact that she constantly re-faces and the cannons make this cancer for a thief that is required to flank the target to hit its DPS. The braindead D/D rotation is terrible here, rifle one is viable but your bullets can get eaten a lot so you have to be careful... generally if you INSIST on playing thief here, you want the condi DD build, even now. Matthias, the DE is still sub-optimal over the condi DD, Sloth and Xera you'll prolly be running Staff DD too, Deimos is the same unless you're hand-kiting, Cairn you'll prolly be running condi DD too. Daredevil is still more oprimal for Dhuum as well if only for Unstable Artifact. That's not just coming from me, it's the current thinking from Snowcrows...

Basically any of these fights where the DE build is not the optimal one then someone might just prefer you run the weaver instead, EVEN IF it's not a huge hitbox or cleave boss. More likely, though, someone will prefer you run something else that brings more utility than either of these.

Edit: It's interesting to note that the might share DE is now actually a viable spec considering it can 10-man share and still output 33k-ish DPS.

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@Sojourner.4621 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't kitten up your rotation

Where did you see this rotation? if it against a Golem does that in fact translate over to a boss fight?

The D/D rotation doesn't hit 40k... only the Rifle one does, and you sacrifice everything to pull it off... mobility, heal, elite, even your F2 has to be strategically timed to give you enough stealth or immediately drop 10k DPS.

So like...every other DPS build that specs purely for max DPS possible?

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@Solori.6025 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't kitten up your rotation

Where did you see this rotation? if it against a Golem does that in fact translate over to a boss fight?

The D/D rotation doesn't hit 40k... only the Rifle one does, and you sacrifice everything to pull it off... mobility, heal, elite, even your F2 has to be strategically timed to give you enough stealth or immediately drop 10k DPS.

So like...every other DPS build that specs purely for max DPS possible?

Exactly like this... and the reason the D/D one that still hits 38k is probably over-tuned since it sacrifices very little to hit these numbers. You can swap from thieve's guild to Basi Venom and lose less than 1k DPS and add a hard CC to support better... the swapping of Spider Venom to, say, shadow step or binding shadows and you either add more CC or more survivability... while barely losing DPS again. It could stand to be tuned down to around 35k... but rifle isn't as overblown as people believe, and is actually pretty easy to lose 10k DPS from a minor mistake like mis-timing your stealth or, Idonno, using your heal to heal yourself instead of to stealth you for a DJ.

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@Sojourner.4621 said:

@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:Our easier rotation doesn't affect other class DPS

Actually it does. Not only are you doing more DPS, you're doing more DPS
more reliably
because of your easier rotation. Consider a scenario where you're pugging a dps and you have a choice between a recently buffed deadeye and a recently nerfed weaver. The only reason to pick the latter would be if you need some cleave. But aside from that (meaning on most bosses) you're only taking a greater risk. You don't know how good these players are. But you can always expect an easier rotation to be performed better than a complex one. And when on top of that the easier rotation also have better potential? It's a no-brainer. It has happened before with condi engi. And they even had slight dps advantage. But the
slight
dps advantage was not enough to justify the greater risk of taking one with you. Same applies for eles now, only worse because we don't have any dps advantage.

Well i saw the de rotation: F1, 1,5 while dagger/dagger and all utilities on cd.

Doesn't seem fair that this gets you to 40k DPS as you can't kitten up your rotation

Where did you see this rotation? if it against a Golem does that in fact translate over to a boss fight?

The D/D rotation doesn't hit 40k... only the Rifle one does, and you sacrifice everything to pull it off... mobility, heal, elite, even your F2 has to be strategically timed to give you enough stealth or immediately drop 10k DPS.

Alright , thanks for that. While I do not do boss fights I still feel that what a person does against a Golem does not translate directly into how effective they will be against a raid boss.

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@Sojourner.4621 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

There are other fights where DE is bad for other reasons though. Sab is one example... the fact that she constantly re-faces and the cannons make this cancer for a thief that is required to flank the target to hit its DPS. The braindead D/D rotation is terrible here, rifle one is viable but your bullets can get eaten a lot so you have to be careful... generally if you INSIST on playing thief here, you want the condi DD build, even now. Matthias, the DE is still sub-optimal over the condi DD, Sloth and Xera you'll prolly be running Staff DD too, Deimos is the same unless you're hand-kiting, Cairn you'll prolly be running condi DD too. Daredevil is still more oprimal for Dhuum as well if only for Unstable Artifact. That's not just coming from me, it's the current thinking from Snowcrows...

Basically any of these fights where the DE build is not the optimal one then someone might just prefer you run the weaver instead, EVEN IF it's not a huge hitbox or cleave boss. More likely, though, someone will prefer you run something else that brings more utility than either of these.

And yet according to gw2efficiency thieves outperform weavers consistently on all bosses except Sloth, KC and Samarog. And Xera, if you count cleave. And please don't start with the "I have to do X and Y and the fight doesn't let me". I'm an ele main. I know everything for fights not letting me just executing my rotation. And an actual rotation, at that.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Zalavaaris.5329" said:We are also talking single target dummy dps. When you add some extra mobs to the mix eles pull way ahead.

Only in very, very rare cases the trash mobs are actually important. There's Sloth, and there's Xera. And that's it.

There are other fights where DE is bad for other reasons though. Sab is one example... the fact that she constantly re-faces and the cannons make this cancer for a thief that is required to flank the target to hit its DPS. The braindead D/D rotation is terrible here, rifle one is viable but your bullets can get eaten a lot so you have to be careful... generally if you INSIST on playing thief here, you want the condi DD build, even now. Matthias, the DE is still sub-optimal over the condi DD, Sloth and Xera you'll prolly be running Staff DD too, Deimos is the same unless you're hand-kiting, Cairn you'll prolly be running condi DD too. Daredevil is still more oprimal for Dhuum as well if only for Unstable Artifact. That's not just coming from me, it's the current thinking from Snowcrows...

Basically any of these fights where the DE build is not the optimal one then someone might just prefer you run the weaver instead, EVEN IF it's not a huge hitbox or cleave boss. More likely, though, someone will prefer you run something else that brings more utility than either of these.

And yet according to gw2efficiency thieves outperform weavers consistently on all bosses except Sloth, KC and Samarog. And Xera, if you count cleave. And please don't start with the "I have to do X and Y and the fight doesn't let me". I'm an ele main. I know everything for fights not letting me just executing my rotation. And an actual rotation, at that.

I mean, I gave other thief builds that work for those bosses and are considered by SC to be more viable/optimal for them... so... sure I guess thief will outperform ele consistently maybe... but how are you getting data on class performance in raids from a site that, as near as I can tell, has no way of tracking that at all period...? Did you mean Raidar? Interesting to note that the weaver numbers on Raidar from before the patch and after are:

Before:O8Okxr0.png

After:EUhRcJV.png

I mean, I get why people are upset... It always sucks to see other classes get a boost while yours goes down a step... but thief has been watching that happen for ages. The right answer would be giving weaver more of a nudge, not killing Deadeye again. (I do think D/D could stand to lose about 4k DPS, but rifle is honestly fine.)

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Chill, eles just arent first in benchmark So they just Rage. We have the same with epi. Prepare yourself for "rotation" arguments And then for "we are squishy", following "we can only do dmg". They have another options(heal), you dont. So enjoy your play and ignore it

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@"Catchyfx.5768" said:Chill, eles just arent first in benchmark So they just Rage. We have the same with epi. Prepare yourself for "rotation" arguments And then for "we are squishy", following "we can only do dmg". They have another options(heal), you dont. So enjoy your play and ignore it

Yeah right. Good luck convincing any decent group to get a heal temp instead of druid.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Catchyfx.5768" said:Chill, eles just arent first in benchmark So they just Rage. We have the same with epi. Prepare yourself for "rotation" arguments And then for "we are squishy", following "we can only do dmg". They have another options(heal), you dont. So enjoy your play and ignore it

Yeah right. Good luck convincing any decent group to get a heal temp instead of druid.

what about make thread for make Chrono and druid less powerfull instead hmp? I dont want to make them useless but have some weaknesess, Example: Druid have offensive buffs for group so his healing will not be that huge.Still dont get why is chrono able to put that amount of boons...

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@Catchyfx.5768 said:

@Catchyfx.5768 said:Chill, eles just arent first in benchmark So they just Rage. We have the same with epi. Prepare yourself for "rotation" arguments And then for "we are squishy", following "we can only do dmg". They have another options(heal), you dont. So enjoy your play and ignore it

Yeah right. Good luck convincing any decent group to get a heal temp instead of druid.

what about make thread for make Chrono and druid less powerfull instead hmp? I dont want to make them useless but have some weaknesess, Example: Druid have offensive buffs for group so his healing will not be that huge.

It's like that already. It doesn't help - you don't need much healing at all. Even if it didn't heal at all, it would still be the go-to pick.

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@eldain stenlund.4306 said:Ive seen video of Thief just using dagger/dagger Autoattack in high end raiding content for max dps.THAT has to stop for sure.

We already all agree that the buff need to be reduce a bit. But Thief was in the shadow for to long. I personally try other class right now but I can't say that I wasn't happy about thief buff. I wasn't considering raiding with my thief as an option because I wanted to play rifle or dagger with a power build so I wouldn't be accepted because it's not meta or not good enough.

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@Dami.5046 said:I thought this was a ranger hate thread and then I saw it was thief.I was like , really?

Why would it be a ranger hate thread ?And at first it was just a thread about people always complaining more than a thief hate thread. But you know some people don't like to see other class shine even if it's only in 1 mode.

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@oOAvengerOo.6714 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I thought this was a ranger hate thread and then I saw it was thief.I was like , really?

Why would it be a ranger hate thread ?And at first it was just a thread about people always complaining more than a thief hate thread. But you know some people don't like to see other class shine even if it's only in 1 mode.

Yeah, no. I don't like to see pressing 2 buttons being the way to win the game.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I thought this was a ranger hate thread and then I saw it was thief.I was like , really?

Why would it be a ranger hate thread ?And at first it was just a thread about people always complaining more than a thief hate thread. But you know some people don't like to see other class shine even if it's only in 1 mode.

Yeah, no. I don't like to see pressing 2 buttons being the way to win the game.

Nobody's forcing you to play thief.

I don't like complexity simply for the sake of it, and I don't find a long rotation any more skillful than a short one, so I don't play ele. Different classes, different aesthetics, play what you like and sod the rest.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I thought this was a ranger hate thread and then I saw it was thief.I was like , really?

Why would it be a ranger hate thread ?And at first it was just a thread about people always complaining more than a thief hate thread. But you know some people don't like to see other class shine even if it's only in 1 mode.

Yeah, no. I don't like to see pressing 2 buttons being the way to win the game.

Nobody's forcing you to play thief.

I don't like complexity simply for the sake of it, and I don't find a long rotation any more skillful than a short one, so I don't play ele. Different classes, different aesthetics, play what you like and sod the rest.

Sure. I can take all the downsides without getting any advantage. But I still could do it, right? Following this logic, nothing ever needs rebalancing.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I thought this was a ranger hate thread and then I saw it was thief.I was like , really?

Why would it be a ranger hate thread ?And at first it was just a thread about people always complaining more than a thief hate thread. But you know some people don't like to see other class shine even if it's only in 1 mode.

Yeah, no. I don't like to see pressing 2 buttons being the way to win the game.

Nobody's forcing you to play thief.

I don't like complexity simply for the sake of it, and I don't find a long rotation any more skillful than a short one, so I don't play ele. Different classes, different aesthetics, play what you like and sod the rest.

Sure. I can take all the downsides without getting any advantage. But I still
could
do it, right? Following this logic, nothing ever needs rebalancing.

By the way you phrased that it sounds like you'd be unhappy if anything had higher DPS than ele full stop. If you want to play ele because you favour the class, play ele and ignore the rest, it's still more than viable at the moment so no problems. If you want the highest DPS, odds are you want an easy run anyways so play whatever is flavour of the month at the time and just reroll when the meta changes. If you're just unhappy your favourite class isn't top dps anymore, you just need to suck it up quite frankly.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

The meta doesn't care about your feelings. To it, players and builds are expendable. What ironic is that PvE is not inherently competitive, but the culture around Raids acts like the whole thing is comparable to American Idol. That had originally started as a joke, but the parallels keep adding up. If 99 out of 100 builds were Viable for something, people would still only fixate on the top 3, because those are "the best ones". I'm constantly being told about how Raids are about skill, and pushing the limits of players.... and then goes on to tell me I have memorize a 40 step rotation, because if I don't, I fail at using the build and "don't carry my weight". And how it deserves the best rewards, because its the hardest content..... but gets speed cleared every week to the point of being routine. A test of individual skill!! Except for the part where one mistake wipes the whole group..... yet they can sell 2 slots to carry people for gold...... A narrative with really fuzzy logic as to what qualifies it as being better then everything else.

You've discovered the horrible truth about humanity......... "I got mine. So why should I care?"

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@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:So stick with my class regardless if it is suitable for the content I'm trying to play and regardless if the rest of the group wants it or not. It will totally work.

The meta doesn't care about your feelings. To it, players and builds are expendable.

That's precisely why you need to balance build disadvantages with actual advantages. Otherwise those at disadvantage become useless.

@starlinvf.1358 said:I'm constantly being told about how Raids are about skill, and pushing the limits of players.... and then goes on to tell me I have memorize a 40 step rotation, because if I don't, I fail at using the build and "don't carry my weight". And how it deserves the best rewards, because its the hardest content..... but gets speed cleared every week to the point of being routine. A test of individual skill!!

Couple of misconceptions here.Yes, it does become a routine clear, but it doesn't mean the content isn't challenging. Before you reach the stage of routine clear, you've practiced and failed, then practiced and succeeded, and failed again.

And secondly, no, it's not a test of individual skill. It's party-based content. It's a test of the team, not you individually. A test of individual skill is soloing something. And this is why you can't really "play your way" in this content. It is not trivial, and you're not soloing it. Willing to risk it just to be that special snowflake is not something everyone would be comfortable doing. And it's even less a thing everyone else would be accepting and understanding. For obvious reasons.

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