Early look at the new meta

[Cyninja.2954]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Kitty, what people like you forget is, yes, players won't hit the top dps benchmark numbers from the golem but they also don't achieve(d) it with weavers etc. anyways. Still, if you're going into a raid/fractal/open world scenario and your skill level hasn't significantly changed over the past days, you will do a lot more dps with this brainless rotation even though it's not the optimum. And that's the reason why it is favored by so many players right now.I can easily execute 25k dps on certain bosses without having to care about a rotation and that number will put me to the top in most pug runs - and it's enough to have a good phasing & killing time. Even Mirage pre-patch was harder for me personally.

This still implies that it should somehow be relevant

to damage

whether or not a rotation is complex.

It should at least to some extent. There has always been differences in complexity and output to varying degree. Deadeye just pushes this to the maximum as far as output reward for minimal input goes.

Now either a ton of people got really really good at the game by simply switching classes, or the more likely scenario, Deadeye is vastly outperforming its complexity.

I personally view the games performance versus result in brackets, for example:

bracket A

might consist of pure auto attack on the one end, to some minor rotation and skill use on the other end (like say mirage or the old core power mesmer). Input requirements are overall simplistic, so let that be reflected in the output. Does this mean that say Deadeye and Mirage need to be exactly equal even though there are minimal differences in their complexity? No.

bracket B

might consist of proper weapon swaps, utilizing synergies of skills and having to stick to a proper rotation. Again, having different classes perform differently with variance within the bracket is fine. Output of bracket B should outperform bracket A as often as possible.

bracket C

, high end near perfect rotation. Requires synergy with possibly alacrity, skills need to be executed timely and mistakes can cost damage as well as intricate knowledge of encounters to allow the player to utilize the maximum effect of their damage at the correct time. Output here should be the highest IF properly executed though very often we have classes from bracket B contest with classes from bracket C. Under no circumstances should classes from bracket A outperform classes from bracket C. That's strait up power creep at the bottom or mid end.

The problem here, some classes from bracket A are in the territory of bracket C. Deadeye is not the only one mind you, it's just the newest most over the top.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Anet already put everyone (except poor Necros) near the ~35k to ~38k range, and players can now actually choose what they want without hurting the group simply for their choice (they will still hurt the group if they suck at their preferred class).

Yes, and that power creep has made much of the content trivial already. Waings 1-4 are way way way easier now than they ever were during HoT. That is a different issue though but I agree, we need to tone down the power creep and around 5k dps need to get sliced off of every dps in game.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:What now? Why are people complaining about Weaver instead of demanding that core Engie get the highest DPS? I don't even know what the problem even is in this topic anymore since most of the people giving answers probably have a static and no worries about their weekly completion being hurt by their favorite rotation dropping from very high levels to high levels of dps.

I absolutely agree that engi or revenant given their current rotation on some builds should be higher up in the damage arena, yes.

It does become an issue in statics when people who want to play the most efficient class have to resort to mindless Deadeye builds. People in statics at the highest level seldom care about their weekly completion.

You are raising an interesting issue though:Should Arenanet keep introducing power creep to trivialize old content and is that in the best interest of the game? After all, every one wants their shot at getting legendary armor and raid rewards.

Alright, I think I get where this is going now, and I do feel the power creep. So much for a game that claimed to have no vertical progression lol. I'd say trivializing content is not so good for a game that poses itself as being entirely made of endgame, but I'm also hesitant to say they should fix this immediately, because it ironically seems to be 'working' insofar as population goes (as you said, everyone wants their shot at rewards, which goes for since long trivialized content too).

Exactly, the problem is now here and it's not easily solved. If Arenanet were to reduce performance by say 5k dps across the board, all raid and fractal content would become more challenging (slightly less than during HoT). Not to the extent that it would be un-completable but enough that some people would run into issues. The overall already perceived toxicity would increase as well (even if we'd basically just be returning to HoT levels of damage with way better classes and 1 extra dps slot).

Post nerf players could then complain about others having had an easier time since classes were so much more powerful for such a long period of time (even if few people really complained that the power creep from HoT to PoF made this content a lot easier). It's always hard to take something away which was once given.

This would all be fine and dandy if there wasn't a possible new expansion down the road. Now the power creep from vanilla to HoT was huge (probably a magnitude of 100-150% if you account for all the changes and alacrity etc.), way bigger than the power creep from HoT to PoF (30% after initial overpowered classes were nerfed/fixed). Even if the power creep with the next expansion were to be "only" half of what PoF introduced we are still looking at 40k+ dps benchmarks across the board. For fights which were designed for 6-10k per class (benchmarking maybe 20k). If the increase was again 30% we are looking at 45k dps performance on golems with a probable 30-35k on bosses. That's insane trivialization of content.

Many mechanics already get skipped:

• Vale Guardian going into phase almost immediately (2-3 greens maybe which can get ignored with heal or barrier)
• Gorseval no updrafts has become the norm, not the static group performance
• Matthias sacrificing maybe 3 people before he hits 40% and changes barely having all the pools get used
• KC 2 or 3 orb damage phases because 5 aren't needed any more
• Xera middle strat without clearing shards because she just melts
• Cairn and MO just roll over and die
• many encounters get a lot easier with shorter durations

Many people do not even learn proper mechanics any more since they are never exposed to how the fight is supposed to be completed. I bet many people don't even know that Gorseval even HAS updrafts.

What stops them from going back and tunning content?

Tuning content is the same as reducing the groups power. Essentially people would complain that others got stuff easier. The work into re-tuning content should also not be underestimated. We had bosses get bugged from simple QoL changes.

Also remember, tuning 1 content does not solve the issue in other content. Granted no one cares about open world pve any more (remember when arenanet decreased power in low level areas and increased world boss health?) but there is multiple game modes affected by power creep across the board.

Not saying that it's impossible and maybe even easier considering it's easier to sell people on re-tuned content than it is on selling everyone on an all class wide nerf.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Kitty, what people like you forget is, yes, players won't hit the top dps benchmark numbers from the golem but they also don't achieve(d) it with weavers etc. anyways. Still, if you're going into a raid/fractal/open world scenario and your skill level hasn't significantly changed over the past days, you will do a lot more dps with this brainless rotation even though it's not the optimum. And that's the reason why it is favored by so many players right now.I can easily execute 25k dps on certain bosses without having to care about a rotation and that number will put me to the top in most pug runs - and it's enough to have a good phasing & killing time. Even Mirage pre-patch was harder for me personally.

This still implies that it should somehow be relevant

to damage

whether or not a rotation is complex.

It should at least to some extent. There has always been differences in complexity and output to varying degree. Deadeye just pushes this to the maximum as far as output reward for minimal input goes.

Now either a ton of people got really really good at the game by simply switching classes, or the more likely scenario, Deadeye is vastly outperforming its complexity.

I personally view the games performance versus result in brackets, for example:

bracket A

might consist of pure auto attack on the one end, to some minor rotation and skill use on the other end (like say mirage or the old core power mesmer). Input requirements are overall simplistic, so let that be reflected in the output. Does this mean that say Deadeye and Mirage need to be exactly equal even though there are minimal differences in their complexity? No.

bracket B

might consist of proper weapon swaps, utilizing synergies of skills and having to stick to a proper rotation. Again, having different classes perform differently with variance within the bracket is fine. Output of bracket B should outperform bracket A as often as possible.

bracket C

, high end near perfect rotation. Requires synergy with possibly alacrity, skills need to be executed timely and mistakes can cost damage as well as intricate knowledge of encounters to allow the player to utilize the maximum effect of their damage at the correct time. Output here should be the highest IF properly executed though very often we have classes from bracket B contest with classes from bracket C. Under no circumstances should classes from bracket A outperform classes from bracket C. That's strait up power creep at the bottom or mid end.

The problem here, some classes from bracket A are in the territory of bracket C. Deadeye is not the only one mind you, it's just the newest most over the top.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Anet already put everyone (except poor Necros) near the ~35k to ~38k range, and players can now actually choose what they want without hurting the group simply for their choice (they will still hurt the group if they suck at their preferred class).

Yes, and that power creep has made much of the content trivial already. Waings 1-4 are way way way easier now than they ever were during HoT. That is a different issue though but I agree, we need to tone down the power creep and around 5k dps need to get sliced off of every dps in game.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:What now? Why are people complaining about Weaver instead of demanding that core Engie get the highest DPS? I don't even know what the problem even is in this topic anymore since most of the people giving answers probably have a static and no worries about their weekly completion being hurt by their favorite rotation dropping from very high levels to high levels of dps.

I absolutely agree that engi or revenant given their current rotation on some builds should be higher up in the damage arena, yes.

It does become an issue in statics when people who want to play the most efficient class have to resort to mindless Deadeye builds. People in statics at the highest level seldom care about their weekly completion.

You are raising an interesting issue though:Should Arenanet keep introducing power creep to trivialize old content and is that in the best interest of the game? After all, every one wants their shot at getting legendary armor and raid rewards.

Alright, I think I get where this is going now, and I do feel the power creep. So much for a game that claimed to have no vertical progression lol. I'd say trivializing content is not so good for a game that poses itself as being entirely made of endgame, but I'm also hesitant to say they should fix this immediately, because it ironically seems to be 'working' insofar as population goes (as you said, everyone wants their shot at rewards, which goes for since long trivialized content too).

Exactly, the problem is now here and it's not easily solved. If Arenanet were to reduce performance by say 5k dps across the board, all raid and fractal content would become more challenging (slightly less than during HoT). Not to the extent that it would be un-completable but enough that some people would run into issues. The overall already perceived toxicity would increase as well (even if we'd basically just be returning to HoT levels of damage with way better classes and 1 extra dps slot).

Post nerf players could then complain about others having had an easier time since classes were so much more powerful for such a long period of time (even if few people really complained that the power creep from HoT to PoF made this content a lot easier). It's always hard to take something away which was once given.

This would all be fine and dandy if there wasn't a possible new expansion down the road. Now the power creep from vanilla to HoT was huge (probably a magnitude of 100-150% if you account for all the changes and alacrity etc.), way bigger than the power creep from HoT to PoF (30% after initial overpowered classes were nerfed/fixed). Even if the power creep with the next expansion were to be "only" half of what PoF introduced we are still looking at 40k+ dps benchmarks across the board. For fights which were designed for 6-10k per class (benchmarking maybe 20k). If the increase was again 30% we are looking at 45k dps performance on golems with a probable 30-35k on bosses. That's insane trivialization of content.

Many mechanics already get skipped:

• Vale Guardian going into phase almost immediately (2-3 greens maybe which can get ignored with heal or barrier)
• Gorseval no updrafts has become the norm, not the static group performance
• Matthias sacrificing maybe 3 people before he hits 40% and changes barely having all the pools get used
• KC 2 or 3 orb damage phases because 5 aren't needed any more
• Xera middle strat without clearing shards because she just melts
• Cairn and MO just roll over and die
• many encounters get a lot easier with shorter durations

Many people do not even learn proper mechanics any more since they are never exposed to how the fight is supposed to be completed. I bet many people don't even know that Gorseval even HAS updrafts.

What stops them from going back and tunning content?

Perhaps the same logic of not making an easy mode does apply to keep re-tuning content. They don't go back to dungeons for example because, allegedly , it is far better to just invest the already strained development resources in new and shiny content. If the raid team spends time going back and balancing content around classes (rather than the balance team actually balancing classes around the content), how longer their already too long cadence of release wouldn't be?

[zealex.9410]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Kitty, what people like you forget is, yes, players won't hit the top dps benchmark numbers from the golem but they also don't achieve(d) it with weavers etc. anyways. Still, if you're going into a raid/fractal/open world scenario and your skill level hasn't significantly changed over the past days, you will do a lot more dps with this brainless rotation even though it's not the optimum. And that's the reason why it is favored by so many players right now.I can easily execute 25k dps on certain bosses without having to care about a rotation and that number will put me to the top in most pug runs - and it's enough to have a good phasing & killing time. Even Mirage pre-patch was harder for me personally.

This still implies that it should somehow be relevant

to damage

whether or not a rotation is complex.

It should at least to some extent. There has always been differences in complexity and output to varying degree. Deadeye just pushes this to the maximum as far as output reward for minimal input goes.

Now either a ton of people got really really good at the game by simply switching classes, or the more likely scenario, Deadeye is vastly outperforming its complexity.

I personally view the games performance versus result in brackets, for example:

bracket A

might consist of pure auto attack on the one end, to some minor rotation and skill use on the other end (like say mirage or the old core power mesmer). Input requirements are overall simplistic, so let that be reflected in the output. Does this mean that say Deadeye and Mirage need to be exactly equal even though there are minimal differences in their complexity? No.

bracket B

might consist of proper weapon swaps, utilizing synergies of skills and having to stick to a proper rotation. Again, having different classes perform differently with variance within the bracket is fine. Output of bracket B should outperform bracket A as often as possible.

bracket C

, high end near perfect rotation. Requires synergy with possibly alacrity, skills need to be executed timely and mistakes can cost damage as well as intricate knowledge of encounters to allow the player to utilize the maximum effect of their damage at the correct time. Output here should be the highest IF properly executed though very often we have classes from bracket B contest with classes from bracket C. Under no circumstances should classes from bracket A outperform classes from bracket C. That's strait up power creep at the bottom or mid end.

The problem here, some classes from bracket A are in the territory of bracket C. Deadeye is not the only one mind you, it's just the newest most over the top.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Anet already put everyone (except poor Necros) near the ~35k to ~38k range, and players can now actually choose what they want without hurting the group simply for their choice (they will still hurt the group if they suck at their preferred class).

Yes, and that power creep has made much of the content trivial already. Waings 1-4 are way way way easier now than they ever were during HoT. That is a different issue though but I agree, we need to tone down the power creep and around 5k dps need to get sliced off of every dps in game.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:What now? Why are people complaining about Weaver instead of demanding that core Engie get the highest DPS? I don't even know what the problem even is in this topic anymore since most of the people giving answers probably have a static and no worries about their weekly completion being hurt by their favorite rotation dropping from very high levels to high levels of dps.

I absolutely agree that engi or revenant given their current rotation on some builds should be higher up in the damage arena, yes.

It does become an issue in statics when people who want to play the most efficient class have to resort to mindless Deadeye builds. People in statics at the highest level seldom care about their weekly completion.

You are raising an interesting issue though:Should Arenanet keep introducing power creep to trivialize old content and is that in the best interest of the game? After all, every one wants their shot at getting legendary armor and raid rewards.

Alright, I think I get where this is going now, and I do feel the power creep. So much for a game that claimed to have no vertical progression lol. I'd say trivializing content is not so good for a game that poses itself as being entirely made of endgame, but I'm also hesitant to say they should fix this immediately, because it ironically seems to be 'working' insofar as population goes (as you said, everyone wants their shot at rewards, which goes for since long trivialized content too).

Exactly, the problem is now here and it's not easily solved. If Arenanet were to reduce performance by say 5k dps across the board, all raid and fractal content would become more challenging (slightly less than during HoT). Not to the extent that it would be un-completable but enough that some people would run into issues. The overall already perceived toxicity would increase as well (even if we'd basically just be returning to HoT levels of damage with way better classes and 1 extra dps slot).

Post nerf players could then complain about others having had an easier time since classes were so much more powerful for such a long period of time (even if few people really complained that the power creep from HoT to PoF made this content a lot easier). It's always hard to take something away which was once given.

This would all be fine and dandy if there wasn't a possible new expansion down the road. Now the power creep from vanilla to HoT was huge (probably a magnitude of 100-150% if you account for all the changes and alacrity etc.), way bigger than the power creep from HoT to PoF (30% after initial overpowered classes were nerfed/fixed). Even if the power creep with the next expansion were to be "only" half of what PoF introduced we are still looking at 40k+ dps benchmarks across the board. For fights which were designed for 6-10k per class (benchmarking maybe 20k). If the increase was again 30% we are looking at 45k dps performance on golems with a probable 30-35k on bosses. That's insane trivialization of content.

Many mechanics already get skipped:

• Vale Guardian going into phase almost immediately (2-3 greens maybe which can get ignored with heal or barrier)
• Gorseval no updrafts has become the norm, not the static group performance
• Matthias sacrificing maybe 3 people before he hits 40% and changes barely having all the pools get used
• KC 2 or 3 orb damage phases because 5 aren't needed any more
• Xera middle strat without clearing shards because she just melts
• Cairn and MO just roll over and die
• many encounters get a lot easier with shorter durations

Many people do not even learn proper mechanics any more since they are never exposed to how the fight is supposed to be completed. I bet many people don't even know that Gorseval even HAS updrafts.

What stops them from going back and tunning content?

Perhaps the same logic of not making an easy mode does apply to keep re-tuning content. They don't go back to dungeons for example because, allegedly , it is far better to just invest the already strained development resources in new and shiny content. If the raid team spends time going back and balancing

content

around

classes

(rather than the balance team actually balancing

classes

around the

content

), how longer their already too long cadence of release wouldn't be?

They already go back on raids and do changes and qol stuff. They do so on fractals by reworking and or tunning them outside of their tiers too.

Im just saying having the raid be abit "harder" wont stink as much as you doing 20% less dmg than you did a week ago.

[Aktium.9506]

@Feanor.2358 said:So to put it short: a build that doesn't really do anything, but it complicated to do it. Much balance, so trade-off.staff still does amazing power cleave as well as ranged dmg. it makes sense that the best single target dps should be on another weaponset. rotational difficulty is not relevant in this.

@nsleep.7839 said:It also doesn do cc, support, buffing, or anything additional at all..of course not, that doesn't justify a single weapon set having all of the priorly mentioned types of damage

[nsleep.7839]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:So to put it short: a build that doesn't really do anything, but it complicated to do it. Much balance, so trade-off.staff still does amazing power cleave as well as ranged dmg. it makes sense that the best single target dps should be on another weaponset. rotational difficulty is not relevant in this.

@"nsleep.7839" said:It also doesn do cc, support, buffing, or anything additional at all..of course not, that doesn't justify a single weapon set having all of the priorly mentioned types of damage

Except that almost every single other class in the same tier of damage offer one of more of these with minimal dps loss. For there to be a trade-off Elementalist would need at least one build with superior damage as it was before, you traded all of these for superior large hitbox damage, cleave and burst, and cleave wasn't exclusive to Elementalist. The class is about to lose more, and isn't getting anything in return other than a trash build that is "good" on one boss, but outclased by a dozen of other classes that are better on the same fight. Sword/Dagger, yay!

[Feanor.2358]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:So to put it short: a build that doesn't really do anything, but it complicated to do it. Much balance, so trade-off.staff still does amazing power cleave

Wait for Tuesday.

[Aktium.9506]

@nsleep.7839 said:For there to be a trade-off Elementalist would need at least one build with superior damage as it was beforethere definitely doesn't need to be any build that does more than 34k dps tops, and then it better be a melee build with bad cleave and little support and cc. outliers like deadeye do need to be smashed into the ground with nerfs

@Feanor.2358 said:Wait for Tuesday.i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an acceptable level. i would be lying through my teeth if i said i didn't at least feel slightly cathartic about thisi have been salty about eles ever since fgs and later ice bow ruined dungeons, cele d/d ran rampant in pvp and eles were a must have for wvw back in the core gameit will be healthy for ele to be considered trash and a joke class(even if they aren't) for at least a year or two

[Feanor.2358]

@Aktium.9506 said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

[zealex.9410]

Id be fine with ele being top dps as id be fine with thief be top dps. Just not by that much.

[Dante.1763]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Aktium.9506 said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

[Tenray.3175]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You are talking like ele was ever bad. It would be actually fair if they were WORST dps, at least once, until the next "balance patch" rolls out.

[Dante.1763]

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You are talking like ele was ever bad. It would be actually fair if they were WORST dps, at least once, until the next "balance patch" rolls out.

Actually it wouldnt. Eles have literally only one thing they do, and thats DPS, nerfing their DPS to the levels of other classes without giving them buffs to anything is what i hate about this nerf, i wouldnt have minded if it came with reasonable buffs that allowed them to do something else, but it didnt, just more nerfs, for a class that receives nerfs literally every patch. it would be fair if they where middle DPS but could do other things, which is not and has not been the case for a very long time. Eles have also been bad before too, sure they werent on the level of Ranger or Necro bad, but they have been bad a couple times throughout this games life time, and when they havent been theyve been pretty limited to one build.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFYEffectiveness of the non-staff ele builds is good enough to keep them above that level. They may be no longer godly, but they are still far from being irrelevant. Unless by "irrelevant" you mean that there will be other picks to choose from.

@Dante.1763 said:its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(Nah, it's necro, not ele, you speak of. In the last few years there wasn't even a single moment when ele

wasn't

useful. And a lot of time when it was miles above that level.

@Dante.1763 said:Eles have also been bad before too, sure they werent on the level of Ranger or Necro bad, but they have been bad a couple times throughout this games life time, and when they havent been they've been pretty limited to one build.Would you care to tell me

when

exactly eles were ever bad? Because i really don't remember any such moment (unless you meant pvp, which is a completely different story).

[Dante.1763]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFYEffectiveness of the non-staff ele builds is good enough to keep them above that level. They may be no longer godly, but they are still far from being irrelevant. Unless by "irrelevant" you mean that there will be other picks to choose from.

@Dante.1763 said:its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(Nah, it's necro, not ele, you speak of. In the last few years there wasn't even a single moment when ele

wasn't

useful. And a lot of time when it was miles above that level.

Sure, it was useful, for DPS, and nothing but DPS. Ele has been locked into the sole DPS role for literally years. As i explained in my followup post earlier, i wouldnt mind if they nerfed eles DPS and allowed it to do other things, but thats not what happened. Im glad that other classes can now do around the same DPS, im upset that ele got nothing to allow them to be decent at support, or condi for example, and they are still stuck in the DPS only role with much less DPS than they had before.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Aktium.9506 said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You couldnt be more wrong. Ele gets buffs, we may get a 6% shatterstone damage buff!

[zealex.9410]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Aktium.9506 said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

---

What? Ele has been at the top since hot? Did you bother looking at the benchmarks or you saw the nerfs and swapped?

[Tenray.3175]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You are talking like ele was ever bad. It would be actually fair if they were WORST dps, at least once, until the next "balance patch" rolls out.

Actually it wouldnt. Eles have literally only one thing they do, and thats DPS, nerfing their DPS to the levels of other classes without giving them buffs to anything is what i hate about this nerf, i wouldnt have minded if it came with reasonable buffs that allowed them to do something else, but it didnt, just more nerfs, for a class that receives nerfs literally every patch. it would be fair if they where middle DPS but could do other things, which is not and has not been the case for a very long time. Eles have also been bad before too, sure they werent on the level of Ranger or Necro bad, but they have been bad a couple times throughout this games life time, and when they havent been theyve been pretty limited to one build.

Okay, so I am hoping you were never ever complaining about the new thief DE because following your logic that means that nerfing thief again will result in the class being totally useless again for raids.If you vote for nerfs on thief then I am looking forward to read your suggestions making him still viable for raids while nerfing his dps.

Furthermore, ele has probably the biggest AoE, still best dps atm, can grant some boons and he is range. There are no more advantages that you can possibly have as a dps.Taking "limited to one build" as an argument makes me kinda smile since there is clearly more than one class that is limited to one build when it comes to META.

[Belorn.2659]

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You are talking like ele was ever bad. It would be actually fair if they were WORST dps, at least once, until the next "balance patch" rolls out.

Actually it wouldnt. Eles have literally only one thing they do, and thats DPS, nerfing their DPS to the levels of other classes without giving them buffs to anything is what i hate about this nerf, i wouldnt have minded if it came with reasonable buffs that allowed them to do something else, but it didnt, just more nerfs, for a class that receives nerfs literally every patch. it would be fair if they where middle DPS but could do other things, which is not and has not been the case for a very long time. Eles have also been bad before too, sure they werent on the level of Ranger or Necro bad, but they have been bad a couple times throughout this games life time, and when they havent been theyve been pretty limited to one build.

Okay, so I am hoping you were never ever complaining about the new thief DE because following your logic that means that nerfing thief again will result in the class being totally useless again for raids.If you vote for nerfs on thief then I am looking forward to read your suggestions making him still viable for raids while nerfing his dps.

Furthermore, ele has probably the biggest AoE, still best dps atm, can grant some boons and he is range. There are no more advantages that you can possibly have as a dps.Taking "limited to one build" as an argument makes me kinda smile since there is clearly more than one class that is limited to one build when it comes to META.

https://gw2raidar.com/global_statsTop dps must mean something else than it used to be. Lets look at last patch meta:https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bossesRight... "top" dps. Lets look one patch before that.https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6/All%20raid%20bossesAlmost, let look at 2017.https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5/All%20raid%20bossesDang, that was when mirage has insane good dps for "walking around" that died from torment.

But at least weaver is top dps for the most important and rewarding fight in the game, the DPS golem (MO does not count as no data show weaver as top dps)!

[Tenray.3175]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Tenray.3175 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:i am awaiting it eagerlyi will however admit that i relish the suffering of eles as they are being brought down to an ~~acceptable ~~ irrelevant level.

FTFY

its kinda sad that i love ele so much, but i keep having to quit playing it because everytime its actually kinda useful it gets nerfed(usually without gaining anything) and then goes along time before its relevant again. I just got my raid rotation for ele down, and was just starting to get into raids...glad i just started, makes the switch to a different class a little less painful, but still :(

You are talking like ele was ever bad. It would be actually fair if they were WORST dps, at least once, until the next "balance patch" rolls out.

Actually it wouldnt. Eles have literally only one thing they do, and thats DPS, nerfing their DPS to the levels of other classes without giving them buffs to anything is what i hate about this nerf, i wouldnt have minded if it came with reasonable buffs that allowed them to do something else, but it didnt, just more nerfs, for a class that receives nerfs literally every patch. it would be fair if they where middle DPS but could do other things, which is not and has not been the case for a very long time. Eles have also been bad before too, sure they werent on the level of Ranger or Necro bad, but they have been bad a couple times throughout this games life time, and when they havent been theyve been pretty limited to one build.

Okay, so I am hoping you were never ever complaining about the new thief DE because following your logic that means that nerfing thief again will result in the class being totally useless again for raids.If you vote for nerfs on thief then I am looking forward to read your suggestions making him still viable for raids while nerfing his dps.

Furthermore, ele has probably the biggest AoE, still best dps atm, can grant some boons and he is range. There are no more advantages that you can possibly have as a dps.Taking "limited to one build" as an argument makes me kinda smile since there is clearly more than one class that is limited to one build when it comes to META.

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Top dps must mean something else than it used to be. Lets look at last patch meta:

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/7/All%20raid%20bosses

Right... "top" dps. Lets look one patch before that.

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/6/All%20raid%20bosses

Almost, let look at 2017.

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5/All%20raid%20bosses

Dang, that was when mirage has insane good dps for "walking around" that died from torment.

But at least weaver is top dps for the most important and rewarding fight in the game, the DPS golem (MO does not count as no data show weaver as top dps)!

I could pick almost any class here - except mesmer maybe - and show off some stats to argue for every class. Pointless.I already mentioned the advantages of ele but people like you somehow want weaver to be best dps in every boss fight without any downsides, whatsoever. You refuse to actually read my comments I posted before, so therefore I cannot help you anymore.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Who would expect the QQ from Weaver being viable would be so hard. We're even arguing about the importance of cleaving when bosses already melt too fast and when mesmer pulls are already improved to the point this was never an issue lol. I guess the important point of this topic was already made (everything is overtuned and the encounters are since long trivialized content).

[nsleep.7839]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Who would expect the QQ from Weaver being viable would be so hard. We're even arguing about the importance of cleaving when bosses already melt too fast and when mesmer pulls are already improved to the point this was never an issue lol. I guess the important point of this topic was already made (everything is overtuned and the encounters are since long trivialized content).See you on Tuesday when Weaver won't be viable anymore. Because if you've been following this discussion you would know this is coming and Meteor Shower is about to lose ~38% of its damage when it represents 25% of the Weaver damage on small hitboxes, on Tuesday, unless Elementalist gets something back, the class will be doing 29k dps on small hitboxes and maybe 33k on huge, all this while cleave damage will suffer a big hit at the same time.

[Sarrs.4831]

When I tell you that necromancers deal rubbish damage, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan.

But when weavers get nerfed, well then everyone loses their minds!

Memes aside, the idea of a game-wide nerf down to Necromancer-level damage in PvE kinda tickles me.

[Astralporing.1957]

@nsleep.7839 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Who would expect the QQ from Weaver being

viable

would be so hard. We're even arguing about the importance of cleaving when bosses already melt too fast and when mesmer pulls are already improved to the point this was never an issue lol. I guess the important point of this topic was already made (everything is overtuned and the encounters are since long trivialized content).See you on Tuesday when Weaver won't be viable anymore.Even if Anet decided to nerf staff into the ground, weaver would still remain not only viable, but acceptable. There are other options for it, that noone currently uses not because they are bad, but simply because staff is better.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Who would expect the QQ from Weaver being

viable

would be so hard. We're even arguing about the importance of cleaving when bosses already melt too fast and when mesmer pulls are already improved to the point this was never an issue lol. I guess the important point of this topic was already made (everything is overtuned and the encounters are since long trivialized content).See you on Tuesday when Weaver won't be viable anymore.Even if Anet decided to nerf staff into the ground, weaver would still remain not only viable, but acceptable. There are other options for it, that noone currently uses not because they are bad, but simply because staff is better.

Nah, it will be trash. Don't try to sell me that rubbish about Sword damage. Sword does basically the same damage as a Mirage for 4x the effort. No thanks.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Who would expect the QQ from Weaver being

viable

would be so hard. We're even arguing about the importance of cleaving when bosses already melt too fast and when mesmer pulls are already improved to the point this was never an issue lol. I guess the important point of this topic was already made (everything is overtuned and the encounters are since long trivialized content).See you on Tuesday when Weaver won't be viable anymore.Even if Anet decided to nerf staff into the ground, weaver would still remain not only viable, but acceptable. There are other options for it, that noone currently uses not because they are bad, but simply because staff is better.

Nah, it will be trash. Don't try to sell me that rubbish about Sword damage. Sword does basically the same damage as a Mirage for 4x the effort. No thanks.

Yeah and Engi and Renegade have less damage than Weaver for more effort. But elementalist must remain in the top 3 for the rest of this games life right?