Early look at the new meta

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Miellyn.6847 said:Yeah and Engi and Renegade have less damage than Weaver for more effort. But elementalist must remain in the top 3 for the rest of this games life right?

Uhm... They dont?Renegade is slightly better than Weaver, Condi Engi is better and Power Holo is about even on small hitbox.

[Blackari.2051]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

well i would call that "normalization" (?), it is only fair that now condi builds won't out-cheese power builds since they both can't damage invuln target now.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

well i would call that "normalization" (?), it is only fair that now condi builds won't out-cheese power builds since they both can't damage invuln target now.It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

[Blackari.2051]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

well i would call that "normalization" (?), it is only fair that now condi builds won't out-cheese power builds since they both can't damage invuln target now.It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase. So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group.. .after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrums

[Dadnir.5038]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

well i would call that "normalization" (?), it is only fair that now condi builds won't out-cheese power builds since they both can't damage invuln target now.It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

I agree with blackari, it doesn't change the benchmark and the benchmark is where you got the numbers. Power is also affected by invuln, I agree that power don't lose momentum due to invuln but that's all.

[yann.1946]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Oh, right, missed the flame trap fix. However, apart from DE over-performing, I see relatively little indication that condi in general is in such a horrible spot.

Agree, there is no reason for renegade, berserker or daredevil raid builds to have lost any condition damage.It's the "Invulnerability effects will now stop conditions from applying damage." change. That one hits all the condi classes, and hits them hard.

That's on top of nerfs to condi sb and necro, of course.

well i would call that "normalization" (?), it is only fair that now condi builds won't out-cheese power builds since they both can't damage invuln target now.It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase. So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group.. .after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrums

We'll this is not how it works tho. The damage ticking is damage which is already applied. The damage is already done. You're suddenly blocking damage which is already done. Astrals comparison is spot one.

Imagine a power and condi group at xera crystals. Assume they both casted 100% damage worth of skills.

In the power group the crystal would be dead.

The condi group has to wait for the conditions to tick.

So before the patch the crystal would still die.

Now the condi group has to cast more damage then the powergroup

I wonder why this misconception as you described still exist.

[Brynioch.1873]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:Yeah and Engi and Renegade have less damage than Weaver for more effort. But elementalist must remain in the top 3 for the rest of this games life right?

Uhm... They dont?Renegade is slightly better than Weaver, Condi Engi is better and Power Holo is about even on small hitbox.

Condi Engi is better on large hitboxes? Might wanna check again? Also renegade has a measily 300 DPS more with the selfish build that actually gets way harder punished if you fuck up.

[Feanor.2358]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:Yeah and Engi and Renegade have less damage than Weaver for more effort. But elementalist must remain in the top 3 for the rest of this games life right?

Uhm... They dont?Renegade is slightly better than Weaver, Condi Engi is better and Power Holo is about even on small hitbox.

Condi Engi is better on large hitboxes? Might wanna check again? Also renegade has a measily 300 DPS more with the selfish build that actually gets way harder punished if you kitten up.

You might wanna check the hitbox sizes of the bosses.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase.The same with condi builds - boss goes invuln, you can't apply condis until boss gets out of invuln phase.But, in addition to that, the condis you have already applied, suddenly do no damage.

So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....You are forgetting, that condis do damage with a delay. The attack power build uses 1 second before invuln phase that deals 2000 damage? It deals 2000 damage. In case of a condi build however? That atttack deals only 1s of damage ticks, rest is wasted. Even though the attack happened when the mob was still vulnerable. It is exactly as if power attacks were partially negated if they happened to be dealt a few seconds before invuln.

The same when invuln ends - power damage picks up immediately, but condi damage only starts to be applied, but will be dealt with a delay. Thus power loses the invuln window of damage, but condi loses more.

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group..That's only because their damage is always "late". They start dealing it with a delay

after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrumsExcept it's not the same.

[Cyninja.2954]

Have to side with Astral on this one, with the current balance in place, condis suffer more from the invul change.

Hypothetical situation:

Player A does 10,000 power dps.Player B does 10,000 condition dps.

Fight starts:0 seconds, both players start their rotations.

Player A does 10,000 power dps immediately (actually more since most power rotation spike at the beginning, but that is details)Player B start stacking up condis so for the first 5-10 seconds he will be below 10,000 dps.

10 secondsBoth players do their full 10,000 dps (power might be a bit less now since they might have used all their big ompfh hitters depending on class)

15 seconds Invul phase startsPlayer A immediately stops being able to do damage, his dps drops to 0Player B immediately stops being able to apply conditions AND his applied conditions stop doing damage. He retroactively loses damage since the conditions have not fully ticked for their full duration (which his 10,000 total dps is based on)

[Feanor.2358]

Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

[Raizel.8175]

@Feanor.2358 said:Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

I don't see why - at least in PvE. Condition Builds already get punished hard through game design aka phasing where conditions either do no more damage or are purged alltogether. Then you have ramp-up-times. These are already reasons why most Condition Builds are useless in fractals. It's a little bit better in raids, but it's certainly getting worse. It at least feels like we're losing diversity and going back to the zerker-meta again outside of some bosses.

[Dante.1763]

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

I don't see why - at least in PvE. Condition Builds already get punished hard through game design aka phasing where conditions either do no more damage or are purged alltogether. Then you have ramp-up-times. These are already reasons why most Condition Builds are useless in fractals. It's a little bit better in raids, but it's certainly getting worse. It at least feels like we're losing diversity and going back to the zerker-meta again outside of some bosses.

Thats kinda exactly whats happening. Nothing but power builds will be accepted in groups before to long i see. While we are at it, can we return to not allowing rangers and necros in groups? (Sarcasm, please dont hate)

[Sephylon.4938]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

I don't see why - at least in PvE. Condition Builds already get punished hard through game design aka phasing where conditions either do no more damage or are purged alltogether. Then you have ramp-up-times. These are already reasons why most Condition Builds are useless in fractals. It's a little bit better in raids, but it's certainly getting worse. It at least feels like we're losing diversity and going back to the zerker-meta again outside of some bosses.

Thats kinda exactly whats happening. Nothing but power builds will be accepted in groups before to long i see. While we are at it, can we return to not allowing rangers and necros in groups? (Sarcasm, please dont hate)

last balance patch put necros very near that state

[Dante.1763]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Dante.1763 said:

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

I don't see why - at least in PvE. Condition Builds already get punished hard through game design aka phasing where conditions either do no more damage or are purged alltogether. Then you have ramp-up-times. These are already reasons why most Condition Builds are useless in fractals. It's a little bit better in raids, but it's certainly getting worse. It at least feels like we're losing diversity and going back to the zerker-meta again outside of some bosses.

Thats kinda exactly whats happening. Nothing but power builds will be accepted in groups before to long i see. While we are at it, can we return to not allowing rangers and necros in groups? (Sarcasm, please dont hate)

last balance patch put necros very near that state

I wouldnt be surprised if they where currently, that last patch looked bad for them(Dont play mine much, Reaper mad me sad).

[Aridon.8362]

6 elementalist 2 necromancer 1 Druid heal and 1 chrono tank. Did I miss anything?

[zealex.9410]

Meanwhile epi is still insane xd

[Feanor.2358]

@Raizel.8175 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Yup, condis lose more, obviously. But it was a necessary change.

I don't see why - at least in PvE. Condition Builds already get punished hard through game design aka phasing where conditions either do no more damage or are purged alltogether. Then you have ramp-up-times. These are already reasons why most Condition Builds are useless in fractals. It's a little bit better in raids, but it's certainly getting worse. It at least feels like we're losing diversity and going back to the zerker-meta again outside of some bosses.

Out of necessity in PvP modes and for the sake of consistency in PvE. Not sure if they even can split a mechanic (not a skill) between game modes, but even if they could I'm almost 100% certain they wouldn't want to.

Aside from that you're right - condi is strictly inferior to power in fractals and this change makes it worse. It's an aftereffect of their change which lowered the condi burst across the board (which was getting out of control in PvP modes again). Honestly I'm not sure what would be a good solution.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Miellyn.6847 said:Condi Engi is better on large hitboxes? Might wanna check again? Also renegade has a measily 300 DPS more with the selfish build that actually gets way harder punished if you kitten up.

Check Small hitbox and hitbox seize of the bosses. If we are on it we can also add the extra damage from Confusion to engi.Why does a selfish build matter? Its not like Weaver is less selfish.

[TexZero.7910]

@Feanor.2358 said:Aside from that you're right - condi is strictly inferior to power in fractals and this change makes it worse. It's an aftereffect of their change which lowered the condi burst across the board (which was getting out of control in PvP modes again). Honestly I'm not sure what would be a good solution.

The simple fix is to revert the condi changes and then have vitality in give - Incoming condition duration.This gives people in PvP reasons to grab it, which in turn reduces condi's effectiveness in that game type and also allows for the numbers to be tuned so that they aren't so overbearing that condi against them has no chance, but instead gives them increased TTL until they can either cleanse the conditions, Kill the target or escape a bad situation.

But that wont because stat inflation or some term. Even though it was a great idea to add Expertise which effected how lethal condition builds are with nothing to compensate on the reverse side outside of resistance which is far from common and only really useful when you have enough uptime for it to matter.

[Blackari.2051]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase.The same with condi builds - boss goes invuln, you can't apply condis until boss gets out of invuln phase.But, in addition to that, the condis you have already applied, suddenly do no damage.

So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....You are forgetting, that condis do damage with a delay. The attack power build uses 1 second before invuln phase that deals 2000 damage? It deals 2000 damage. In case of a condi build however? That atttack deals only 1s of damage ticks, rest is wasted. Even though the attack happened when the mob was still vulnerable. It is exactly as if power attacks were partially negated if they happened to be dealt a few seconds before invuln.

The same when invuln ends - power damage picks up immediately, but condi damage only starts to be applied, but will be dealt with a delay. Thus power loses the invuln window of damage, but condi loses

more

.

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group..That's only because their damage is always "late". They start dealing it with a delay

after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrumsExcept it's

not

the same.

yeah you are right, but still i think it is (probably?) compensated by condi build dealing damage even when you roll or have to move and cant hit the boss etc., maybe if they made it so in pve you will get first tick of dmg instanteniously and then it will continue like normally does

[sigur.9453]

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase.The same with condi builds - boss goes invuln, you can't apply condis until boss gets out of invuln phase.But, in addition to that, the condis you have already applied, suddenly do no damage.

So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....You are forgetting, that condis do damage with a delay. The attack power build uses 1 second before invuln phase that deals 2000 damage? It deals 2000 damage. In case of a condi build however? That atttack deals only 1s of damage ticks, rest is wasted. Even though the attack happened when the mob was still vulnerable. It is exactly as if power attacks were partially negated if they happened to be dealt a few seconds before invuln.

The same when invuln ends - power damage picks up immediately, but condi damage only starts to be applied, but will be dealt with a delay. Thus power loses the invuln window of damage, but condi loses

more

.

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group..That's only because their damage is always "late". They start dealing it with a delay

after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrumsExcept it's

not

the same.

yeah you are right, but still i think it is (probably?) compensated by condi build dealing damage even when you roll or have to move and cant hit the boss etc., maybe if they made it so in pve you will get first tick of dmg instanteniously and then it will continue like normally does

since you then don´t apply any new condisions, you will also lose dps, so it doesn´t really compensate.it hard to balance it , but if i remember correctly, there was a quote from a dev not to long ago that said, power should be doing more dps per design.

[Brynioch.1873]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase.The same with condi builds - boss goes invuln, you can't apply condis until boss gets out of invuln phase.But, in addition to that, the condis you have already applied, suddenly do no damage.

So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....You are forgetting, that condis do damage with a delay. The attack power build uses 1 second before invuln phase that deals 2000 damage? It deals 2000 damage. In case of a condi build however? That atttack deals only 1s of damage ticks, rest is wasted. Even though the attack happened when the mob was still vulnerable. It is exactly as if power attacks were partially negated if they happened to be dealt a few seconds before invuln.

The same when invuln ends - power damage picks up immediately, but condi damage only starts to be applied, but will be dealt with a delay. Thus power loses the invuln window of damage, but condi loses

more

.

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group..That's only because their damage is always "late". They start dealing it with a delay

after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrumsExcept it's

not

the same.

yeah you are right, but still i think it is (probably?) compensated by condi build dealing damage even when you roll or have to move and cant hit the boss etc., maybe if they made it so in pve you will get first tick of dmg instanteniously and then it will continue like normally does

since you then don´t apply any new condisions, you will also lose dps, so it doesn´t really compensate.it hard to balance it , but if i remember correctly, there was a quote from a dev not to long ago that said, power should be doing more dps per design.

The quote said power is supposed to have more burst and condi more DPS during long fights that's why they increased the ramp up time.

[Dante.1763]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Blackari.2051 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It's not "out-cheese". It's condi damage being balanced around the assumption that all the stacks will continue to tick to its full time. It affects condi builds more than power ones, because not only you can't apply condi during the invulnerability phases, but also the condis you have already applied do no damage. It's like invuln would suddenly start to negate/heal back last 10-20 seconds of power damage. That wouldn't sound fair, would it?

what ? that doesnt make any sense.... when boss go invuln, as power build you are done you cant do anything untill boss gets out of invuln phase.The same with condi builds - boss goes invuln, you can't apply condis until boss gets out of invuln phase.But, in addition to that, the condis you have already applied, suddenly do no damage.

So if you have your condis up, then boss goes invuln you will stop doing dmg too, for the same amount of time as power build... it is not healing or negating anything, it is just a window when both power and condi builds cant dmg boss and it seems more than fair now imo....You are forgetting, that condis do damage with a delay. The attack power build uses 1 second before invuln phase that deals 2000 damage? It deals 2000 damage. In case of a condi build however? That atttack deals only 1s of damage ticks, rest is wasted. Even though the attack happened when the mob was still vulnerable. It is exactly as if power attacks were partially negated if they happened to be dealt a few seconds before invuln.

The same when invuln ends - power damage picks up immediately, but condi damage only starts to be applied, but will be dealt with a delay. Thus power loses the invuln window of damage, but condi loses

more

.

imagine raid group of 10x power dps and another group of 10x condi dps.... before patch, second group would have a huge advantage because they would be dealing dmg even tho boss is "unhittable" for power group..That's only because their damage is always "late". They start dealing it with a delay

after patch both groups cannot damage the boss during the same time, it is the same now for both spectrumsExcept it's

not

the same.

yeah you are right, but still i think it is (probably?) compensated by condi build dealing damage even when you roll or have to move and cant hit the boss etc., maybe if they made it so in pve you will get first tick of dmg instanteniously and then it will continue like normally does

since you then don´t apply any new condisions, you will also lose dps, so it doesn´t really compensate.it hard to balance it , but if i remember correctly, there was a quote from a dev not to long ago that said, power should be doing more dps per design.

The quote said power is supposed to have more burst and condi more DPS during long fights that's why they increased the ramp up time.

Which didnt they just ruin at least on bosses with invuln periods? by not allowing the condis DPS to affect it, but still allow it to tic down it makes the Condi player have to reramp up which then means less DPS by a decent(or large) margin.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Dante.1763 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:The quote said power is supposed to have more burst and condi more DPS during long fights that's why they increased the ramp up time.

Which didnt they just ruin at least on bosses with invuln periods?Exactly. Condis may be tuned to be better on long fights (in theory anyway, because currently power builds win in that category too), but Anet is making sure that there

won't

be any long enough fights.