Reduce Silent Scope stealth duration

[bq pd.2148]

@Vornollo.5182 said:Stealth on dodge is just silly. It's annoying to play against x/P Daredevils who use Bound already. This Silent Scope stuff is just on a whole new level.

While I do agree that Thief should have great access to Stealth, I'm also very much of a mind that it requires proper counterplay. Currently, other than the ICD there's no counterplay to it. Ok, sometimes you can immobilize, as Thieves we can do that more often than most others... But really.I just don't know how they thought this would be healthy to the game...I'd rather see them change it to a short duration Smokefield, so that you'd still have to invest a skill to gain stealth from it (like a 1 second Snipers' Cover). Or maybe have it add 1 Malice on dodge with a 8 second ICD. Something like that, or have it add 1 Malice upon entering stealth with a 2 second ICD, keep Deadeye Stealth based, let dodges be the area of the Daredevil. Personally, I don't think it actually needs more than the 20% Critical Hit Chance, but flat modifiers are a tad boring.

Investing a dodge to it is a pretty big cost, so I don't mind there being a nice effect from it. But it should still allow for counterplay.

taking stealth away from dodge without putting it elsewere will make daredevil better for stealth and dodge tho.currently deadeye s better in stealth and daredevil still has better evade. deadeyes sacrificing their dodges for stealth means they will use them less to actually dodge attacks, wich makes dodging even more a daredevil thing.its just that deadeyes more often invest into stealth further with SA than daredevils invest into acro for more dodge. because stealth can be used offensively while daredeviö + acro is often too defensive and wont be able to kill anything. thats why the emphasize on stealth feels stronger on deadeye then the emphasize on dodges for daredevil

[Vornollo.5182]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Stealth on dodge is just silly. It's annoying to play against x/P Daredevils who use Bound already. This Silent Scope stuff is just on a whole new level.

While I do agree that Thief should have great access to Stealth, I'm also very much of a mind that it requires proper counterplay. Currently, other than the ICD there's no counterplay to it. Ok, sometimes you can immobilize, as Thieves we can do that more often than most others... But really.I just don't know how they thought this would be healthy to the game...I'd rather see them change it to a short duration Smokefield, so that you'd still have to invest a skill to gain stealth from it (

like a 1 second Snipers' Cover

). Or maybe have it add 1 Malice on dodge with a 8 second ICD. Something like that, or have it add 1 Malice upon entering stealth with a 2 second ICD, keep Deadeye Stealth based, let dodges be the area of the Daredevil. Personally, I don't think it actually needs more than the 20% Critical Hit Chance, but flat modifiers are a tad boring.

Investing a dodge to it is a pretty big cost, so I don't mind there being a nice effect from it. But it should still allow for counterplay.

taking stealth away from dodge without putting it elsewere will make daredevil better for stealth and dodge tho.currently deadeye s better in stealth and daredevil still has better evade. deadeyes sacrificing their dodges for stealth means they will use them less to actually dodge attacks, wich makes dodging even more a daredevil thing.its just that deadeyes more often invest into stealth further with SA than daredevils invest into acro for more dodge. because stealth can be used offensively while daredeviö + acro is often too defensive and wont be able to kill anything. thats why the emphasize on stealth feels stronger on deadeye then the emphasize on dodges for daredevil

I know, all of it makes perfect sense too in that regard.However, the point still stands that getting Stealth through an evade (little to no counterplay to it) is bad gamedesign. I already pointed out Bound having a similar issue, but Silent Scope's variant is a bigger offender. I don't mind DE having more Stealth access, not at all, I'd just like to see the access to it made a little more interesting for the game in general.

For that matter, there's plenty of other things like stealth on evade (be it through bound or Silent Scope) on other professions too, all of it should be looked at. I just consider things like that to be bad for the health of the game. Same as the infamous get-out-of-jail-for-free Passives... Should get reworked to get more interesting (counter)play.Doubt they'll do it though. DE sells expansions, Passives carry the majority of the playerbase and dumbing down the game seems to be a trend we've been heading toward for years now... Oh well, we'll see how it goes. I still love the game and I'm glad that Deadeye is strong in it's own niche situations, but it could definitely have been more interesting to play with and against.

[bq pd.2148]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Stealth on dodge is just silly. It's annoying to play against x/P Daredevils who use Bound already. This Silent Scope stuff is just on a whole new level.

While I do agree that Thief should have great access to Stealth, I'm also very much of a mind that it requires proper counterplay. Currently, other than the ICD there's no counterplay to it. Ok, sometimes you can immobilize, as Thieves we can do that more often than most others... But really.I just don't know how they thought this would be healthy to the game...I'd rather see them change it to a short duration Smokefield, so that you'd still have to invest a skill to gain stealth from it (

like a 1 second Snipers' Cover

). Or maybe have it add 1 Malice on dodge with a 8 second ICD. Something like that, or have it add 1 Malice upon entering stealth with a 2 second ICD, keep Deadeye Stealth based, let dodges be the area of the Daredevil. Personally, I don't think it actually needs more than the 20% Critical Hit Chance, but flat modifiers are a tad boring.

Investing a dodge to it is a pretty big cost, so I don't mind there being a nice effect from it. But it should still allow for counterplay.

taking stealth away from dodge without putting it elsewere will make daredevil better for stealth and dodge tho.currently deadeye s better in stealth and daredevil still has better evade. deadeyes sacrificing their dodges for stealth means they will use them less to actually dodge attacks, wich makes dodging even more a daredevil thing.its just that deadeyes more often invest into stealth further with SA than daredevils invest into acro for more dodge. because stealth can be used offensively while daredeviö + acro is often too defensive and wont be able to kill anything. thats why the emphasize on stealth feels stronger on deadeye then the emphasize on dodges for daredevil

I know, all of it makes perfect sense too in that regard.However, the point still stands that getting Stealth through an evade (little to no counterplay to it) is bad gamedesign. I already pointed out Bound having a similar issue, but Silent Scope's variant is a bigger offender. I don't mind DE having more Stealth access, not at all, I'd just like to see the access to it made a little more interesting for the game in general.

For that matter, there's plenty of other things like stealth on evade (be it through bound or Silent Scope) on other professions too, all of it should be looked at. I just consider things like that to be bad for the health of the game. Same as the infamous get-out-of-jail-for-free Passives... Should get reworked to get more interesting (counter)play.Doubt they'll do it though. DE sells expansions, Passives carry the majority of the playerbase and dumbing down the game seems to be a trend we've been heading toward for years now... Oh well, we'll see how it goes. I still love the game and I'm glad that Deadeye is strong in it's own niche situations, but it could definitely have been more interesting to play with and against.

deadeye is ment to be played with stealth, making it easier to strip em of stealth is not making the fight more interesting. it forces the deadeye to play more safe, more annoying. my deadeye for instance doesnt deal much damage when too long out of stealth and has little to no defense because i just build it around stealth, so i will no matter what you change play in a way that i will be able to enter stealth again, currently i can play pretty aggressive wich give my opponents more room for counter play then if i had to play defensive. i mean i can stalk people and kill them with m7 backstab from just MI malice , that would be safe, annoying and not interesting. but against some classes with range instant CC i might need to do that if you can interrupt all my stealth access.if you want to make it more interesting to fight deadeyes you need to adress their ability to hide too strong effects and give them a little more room to play visible. malicious backstab would need another effect to scale malice with in spvp / WvW, yes it requires a setup , is hard to hit to a moving target, still not an interesting fight if you land it. binding shadows has a very strong effect wich is fine, but the animation ( red smoke stream) has to show also when the deadeye is in stealth, a 3s knockdown, immob, vuln, poison , boonrip is a little too strong to have no tell. then make DR an evade and mark instant so we are not a freekill when we come out of stealth and the fight would be more interesting.the safer the deadeye while visible, the more efficient it is to play with as little stealth as possible and with more interaction with the opponent wich makes for more interesting fights.DJ has enough tells for its effects, malicious backstab having more damage for less tells just makes that skill obsolete.

[babazhook.6805]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:Stealth on dodge is just silly. It's annoying to play against x/P Daredevils who use Bound already. This Silent Scope stuff is just on a whole new level.

While I do agree that Thief should have great access to Stealth, I'm also very much of a mind that it requires proper counterplay. Currently, other than the ICD there's no counterplay to it. Ok, sometimes you can immobilize, as Thieves we can do that more often than most others... But really.I just don't know how they thought this would be healthy to the game...I'd rather see them change it to a short duration Smokefield, so that you'd still have to invest a skill to gain stealth from it (

like a 1 second Snipers' Cover

). Or maybe have it add 1 Malice on dodge with a 8 second ICD. Something like that, or have it add 1 Malice upon entering stealth with a 2 second ICD, keep Deadeye Stealth based, let dodges be the area of the Daredevil. Personally, I don't think it actually needs more than the 20% Critical Hit Chance, but flat modifiers are a tad boring.

Investing a dodge to it is a pretty big cost, so I don't mind there being a nice effect from it. But it should still allow for counterplay.

taking stealth away from dodge without putting it elsewere will make daredevil better for stealth and dodge tho.currently deadeye s better in stealth and daredevil still has better evade. deadeyes sacrificing their dodges for stealth means they will use them less to actually dodge attacks, wich makes dodging even more a daredevil thing.its just that deadeyes more often invest into stealth further with SA than daredevils invest into acro for more dodge. because stealth can be used offensively while daredeviö + acro is often too defensive and wont be able to kill anything. thats why the emphasize on stealth feels stronger on deadeye then the emphasize on dodges for daredevil

I know, all of it makes perfect sense too in that regard.However, the point still stands that getting Stealth through an evade (little to no counterplay to it) is bad gamedesign. I already pointed out Bound having a similar issue, but Silent Scope's variant is a bigger offender. I don't mind DE having more Stealth access, not at all, I'd just like to see the access to it made a little more interesting for the game in general.

For that matter, there's plenty of other things like stealth on evade (be it through bound or Silent Scope) on other professions too, all of it should be looked at. I just consider things like that to be bad for the health of the game. Same as the infamous get-out-of-jail-for-free Passives... Should get reworked to get more interesting (counter)play.Doubt they'll do it though. DE sells expansions, Passives carry the majority of the playerbase and dumbing down the game seems to be a trend we've been heading toward for years now... Oh well, we'll see how it goes. I still love the game and I'm glad that Deadeye is strong in it's own niche situations, but it could definitely have been more interesting to play with and against.

You would have a point were the stealth on dodge on every weapon spec. It just on rifle and really no worse in game terms then having an evade on a weapon skill or a port . Why is stealth on dodge unhealthy but Evade on DB or port on s #2 ok?

BTW weakness is a counter to stealth on dodge. There little in the way of traits that cleanses directly meaning the DE will often use a utility or burn INI for DR to get it off/

[Vornollo.5182]

Yeah, in the current state of the game it's manageable, doesn't make it good.I'll reiterate that I got nothing against the DE having more Stealth and easier access to it. Having uninterruptible access to stealth in any form (like I said, that includes Bound to a certain degree) is what does slightly bother me though.Yes, I can guess the positioning of stealthed opponents quite reliably (maining thief, you just develop the habbit of recognizing stealthed movement based on a simple "what would I do" logic), so in that regard I'm hardly bothered by it. Heck, I can 9/10 times still reliably time a Basi Venom and/or Immob right at the end of the Rifle DE's dodge and get a few free hits in or force a CD.I am however also able to acknowledge that despite there being ways to work with it, it's just not fun and feels to me like another dumbing down of the game. Ironically, and rather stupidly if I say so myself, it's too much in line with them putting the CD on Blinding Powder. Yes it gave uninterruptible Stealth too, but the CD on that was/is quite massive and it allowed for really nice and sometimes very niche plays and uses. It was fun to use as a Thief and your opponents would actually be fine with it, because it was simply a cleverly timed bit of play (well... Most of the time, we all know how much people like to whine...).With this Silent Scope though, I don't know... It doesn't feel right. It's too much of a "fire and forget" sort of thing. Yes you can use it to a very tactical degree, much like Blinding Powder in that regard. Yeah, sacrificing a dodge for a bit of stealth is a big cost in my opinion as well. But I cannot shake the feeling that it's not good for the game. There's too little to be done against it.Guess what it comes down to, I can see the nerf coming and they'll probably overdo it in tenfold by the time the next expansion hits. I'd rather they already make something out of it which is fun, useful and allows for good play and counterplay.I don't know the best way to go about it.I just tried to offer some ideas that I'd think make the game more interesting to play for everyone, but when I play Rifle DE right now, I just feel a bit "dirty", performing a bit of a cheap trick... It's clearly not my playstyle, I'm afraid.

Also MUDse, I really like the idea of Death's Retreat getting an evadeframe. Atleast the part where your character makes that little jump up in the air right before porting backwards. I'd be fine with the whole cast too, but that initial jump seems like a bare minimum. No idea why they didn't do that in the first place... But it'd be nice. Something that you could use to like About-Face and cast, to proc some Necro Marks and stuff... Would be quite nice!

Babazhook, I don't find the evade on a weaponskill unhealthy because everyone can see what's going on. Start to finish. You know what happens, you know how people will move, you know when you can make use of the aftercast... So on and so forth.Same for ports. You can even play around with ports by lighting up the return points and such. There's more counterplay to it simply because you can see what's going on. You can to some extent do the same against this Stealth on Dodge, I know that. I can do that. I'm actually able to play around with it against most DE's to force their CD's often early on in a fight.Again. I'm fine with Stealth, even easy access to it. This way of getting stealth however... Again, it just doesn't sit right with me.I don't have a solution for it either, not one that would actually improve the gameplay for both the DE's making use of that trait, nor for the people facing it.I don't mind it too much personally, I just don't think it's going to be healthy for the game in general in the long run and I fear that it'll get nerfed to oblivion if noone comes up with something more enjoyable for both sides.

[bq pd.2148]

did you play DE before the rework?i did, alot. i had shadowstep and blinding powder on my bar. my 2 skills to get out. the problem is many builds are able to pressure too fast wich meant i was stupid to attack with both on cooldown as every attempt to get some room again was able to be interrupted. so i had to play more carefully and play with alot more stealth during the fight against some classes. thats why DE was considered a joke and only able to kill bad players by many before the rework. now with stealth on dodge i can come out of stealth every time i have a dodge roll.i mean the fact that i now can more frequently enter stealth uninterruptable doesnt give me the ability to tank hits. i still have to avoid all of them because DE is terrible at counter pressure, core/DD are better for this cause of instant steal that they also dont have to burn at the beginning for malice. a DE needs more options to deal with incoming attacks and to get themselves some room for counterpressure if you want them to no longer just outrange+stealth you. taking away uninterruptable stealth access will just reduce them to 'only against bad players' status again and they will surely be more annoying to fight because they still have to avoid all hits while they have less tools for it.

[babazhook.6805]

The Comparison of an evade frame on a weapon skill or a port one the same to stealth is hardly specific to DE and Rifle or stealth on dodge. It a FUNCTION of stealth. In function it works no differenly then stealth on Daredevil, on Core or on any other class with access to stealth.

This has always been how stealth functioned in games from the earliest Pen and paper to all manner of online games. The point of stealth is you do not see the enemy making it very hard to counter his attack. Stealth does in fact of counters. There are reveals. There are taunts. There AOE and cleave and there channeled attacks. I have been downed while stealthed and have downed enemy while they are stealthed. In form the "ease of it" is no greater then clicking a button to take no damage for 6 seconds.. While something like Signet of stone on a longer cooldown then is stealth , the ranger using it has much more in the way of other mitigation measures for damage wherein that DE thief relies on the stealth. Just using the pet to block LOS works to thwart many DE attacks as example.

[Barzah.8019]

The only reason why stealth r so powerfull on PvP is either the lack of revealed tool for some class like revent or many people that TOO LAZY TO USE THEIR STEALTH DETECTION TOOLS (<-- definetly this). I fought a lot of ranger without sick em ability, and even spellbreaker that didn't bother using magebane tether that pretty much server as DE hard counter. If other class are strugling against stealth spam then i say most of them r just to ignorant to change their skillset.

And 2s stealth from sniper scope is a good call because DE rifle need time to reposition and it happend a lot on both PvP and PvE....A lot of running here and there just to get a good angle and that 2s stealth roll (3 with SA) is the only reason for DE to stay on their toe.

[Straegen.2938]

My vote is to dump Reveal and prevent stealth in combat on any class outside of carefully balanced utility skills. The ability to hit like a truck then 3s later vanish in some cases indefinitely makes killing any variety of stealth builds nearly impossible. This is particularly true of Mesmer bunker variants.

[bq pd.2148]

@Straegen.2938 said:My vote is to dump Reveal and prevent stealth in combat on any class outside of carefully balanced utility skills. The ability to hit like a truck then 3s later vanish in some cases indefinitely makes killing any variety of stealth builds nearly impossible. This is particularly true of Mesmer bunker variants.

so basically you want to replace thief with a new class? because nearly all thief builds use in combat stealth outside of utility. and no matter if thief uses stealth, mobility, evades or range to avoid damage thieves allways have to try not being hit at all as they will lose trading hits with pretty much any other class and for that purpose in a 1vs1 stealth is weaker then all the other options.

[Straegen.2938]

@MUDse.7623 said:so basically you want to replace thief with a new class? because nearly all thief builds use in combat stealth outside of utility. and no matter if thief uses stealth, mobility, evades or range to avoid damage thieves allways have to try not being hit at all as they will lose trading hits with pretty much any other class and for that purpose in a 1vs1 stealth is weaker then all the other options.

Thief is not a stealth only class. There are many variants that don't use stealth at all. Thief also isn't the only class that has a stealth issue. The biggest impact of this change is to D/D and D/P both of which need overhauls. Some traits will need tweaks but overall the change would most certainly be for the better in the small scale meta. In combat chain-able stealth is a poor mechanic on every build.

One of the biggest screw ups with the Thief as a whole, is that on demand stealth post attack makes meaningful balance nearly impossible. In the case of the Mesmer, it is over tuned and borderline OP. For the thief particularly non-stealth builds, on demand stealth causes the class as a whole to be under-tuned. There is a reason no other MMO handles stealth this way.

[bq pd.2148]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:so basically you want to replace thief with a new class? because nearly all thief builds use in combat stealth outside of utility. and no matter if thief uses stealth, mobility, evades or range to avoid damage thieves allways have to try not being hit at all as they will lose trading hits with pretty much any other class and for that purpose in a 1vs1 stealth is weaker then all the other options.

Thief is not a stealth only class. There are many variants that don't use stealth at all. Thief also isn't the only class that has a stealth issue. The biggest impact of this change is to D/D and D/P both of which need overhauls. Some traits will need tweaks but overall the change would most certainly be for the better in the small scale meta. In combat chain-able stealth is a poor mechanic on every build.

One of the biggest screw ups with the Thief as a whole, is that on demand stealth post attack makes meaningful balance nearly impossible. In the case of the Mesmer, it is over tuned and borderline OP. For the thief particularly non-stealth builds, on demand stealth causes the class as a whole to be under-tuned. There is a reason no other MMO handles stealth this way.

correct heavy stealth use is in most cases far from efficient. there is alot of traits and skills tied to stealth wich ofc if you try to build without any stealth limits your options. being able to stealth is not more of an issue then being able to hit and then on demand dodge or port out of range. its just you personally dont like to deal with it.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Vornollo.5182 said:I don't mind it too much personally, I just don't think it's going to be healthy for the game in general in the long run and I fear that it'll get nerfed to oblivion if noone comes up with something more enjoyable for both sides.

Dude i will just give you advice. Dont ever mention any kind of rework for Deadeye in Thieves part of forum. You will get salted down by everyone. Not suported by anyone and at the end you wont change a thing. Just buy yourself some squishy ball or something and each time you get nailed down to death with lets say 2 skills from Deadeye sqush it a few times. It works. And sacrifice a virgin to god of games Gaben so he looks upon us and sends some good MMO in a near future so those who are not sheeple might hop on the Hype train.

[Turk.5460]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:so basically you want to replace thief with a new class? because nearly all thief builds use in combat stealth outside of utility. and no matter if thief uses stealth, mobility, evades or range to avoid damage thieves allways have to try not being hit at all as they will lose trading hits with pretty much any other class and for that purpose in a 1vs1 stealth is weaker then all the other options.

Thief is not a stealth only class. There are many variants that don't use stealth at all.

Like what? D/D condition? Perhaps you mean the top-tier meta Core P/P and Core S/P? Surely you aren't referring to S/D, where CnD is used often...

[Vornollo.5182]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:I don't mind it too much personally, I just don't think it's going to be healthy for the game in general in the long run and I fear that it'll get nerfed to oblivion if noone comes up with something more enjoyable for both sides.

Dude i will just give you advice. Dont ever mention any kind of rework for Deadeye in Thieves part of forum. You will get salted down by everyone. Not suported by anyone and at the end you wont change a thing. Just buy yourself some squishy ball or something and each time you get nailed down to death with lets say 2 skills from Deadeye sqush it a few times. It works. And sacrifice a virgin to god of games Gaben so he looks upon us and sends some good MMO in a near future so those who are not sheeple might hop on the Hype train.

Whatever you consider Holy forbid some Thief players are able to objectively take a look at their own Profession and (Elite) Specializations and express their opinions...Take a good look at your screen, you're on a forum... Discussions take place, people express their opinions... Mind blowing information, isn't it..?

Also, you clearly didn't read through the majority of my posts if you think I got an actual issue with Deadeyes.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Vornollo.5182 said:I didnt forbid you from expressin your thougts or anything and also i didnt say that you have issue with Deadeye. I said i would advice you not to mention Deadeye or any changes to it here because people will not like it and you will get no support for that.. Probably you havent read what i wrote as well. Those discussions that take place here are just poke arounds. Someone says it would be nice to have a change on anything 10 other ppl will come and say either it is a bad idead, or you have not enough ''insight'' on the class or that there should be something else that changes which completely doesnt corelate with what you said in a first place. And wait it happened here as well. Hmm yea i didnt read it that well i guess.

[bq pd.2148]

'it would be nice to have a change' is no reason to change anything, maybe thats the issue? most discussions are pure nerf this or buff that wich means you have to explain why the current state is not balanced in your opinion, wich will allways lead to disagreement. in case of deadeye there are a ton of suggestions because someone doesnt like the playstyle, but its often just asking nerfs here and there instead of suggesting something changing the playstyle. that would again be personal opinion that people might disagree on, especially if people confuse their preference with balance. and then there are suggestions based on a mode that doesnt exist like 1 vs 1, it is part of both spvp and WvW but it is not the mode. so the game wont ever be balanced mainly around that as it will conflict with other balancing goals. basically whatever you post, there will be reason to disagree with you, expect them and prepare yourself for them, this is a forum after all.

[Vornollo.5182]

Seems a bit obvious don't it..?No idea what Jack felt like singling me out for such a remark though, quite funny.Forums are always like that, I'm open for the discussion regarding whatever OP I replied to. In this case though, his didn't actually add anything to the entire topic, which is why I'm quite at a loss of the point of purpose of his post(s)... Maybe I killed him while he was playing a DE rifle build or something..? No idea, good moment to stop the derail of the topic though.

---

I've offered some suggestions on the Silent Scope trait earlier... Not saying they're better, but they seem to be more interesting to play with and against. Instead of reacting to that though, there seemed to be a need to derail the topic, lol.

So another attempt at this (and please, @Jack Redline.5379 feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

[bq pd.2148]

@Vornollo.5182 said:So another attempt at this (and please, @"Jack Redline.5379" feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

stealth on dodge and previously on kneel give atleast 30% stealth uptime. daredevil with base endurance regen using bound for stealth is at least 30%+other effects. those f2 abilities are 3 second per mark wich has 25s cooldown wich is just 12% uptime. you can improve on it with improvisation or One in the Chamber but you can aswell greatly increase endurance gains on daredevil. there would be easier stealth access on daredevil if you replace silent scope stealth with a different effect.i mean i could still permastealth with your changes on deadeye but it just would be more clunky and if i still cant fight better out of stealth, i wont fight more out of stealth. nerfing stealth access will just make deadeye harder to play but not more interesting to fight against. again if you want deadeye to fight more visible, give them tools to do so properly. currently they are just too vulnerable to stay visible too long.your suggestions are just outright nerfs not just changes (neither a 1s snipers cover is of any use nor malice that you can build up in a second if you cant enter stealth) , for nerf you have to aswell explain the current balance issue in context of the mode you want to address it. but your reason for those nerfs is mostly 'not fun to fight against' wich is no need for a nerf, but a change in playstyle is debateable.

[Vornollo.5182]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:So another attempt at this (and please, @"Jack Redline.5379" feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (

though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue

), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

stealth on dodge and previously on kneel give atleast 30% stealth uptime. daredevil with base endurance regen using bound for stealth is at least 30%+other effects. those f2 abilities are 3 second per mark wich has 25s cooldown wich is just 12% uptime. you can improve on it with improvisation or One in the Chamber but you can aswell greatly increase endurance gains on daredevil. there would be easier stealth access on daredevil if you replace silent scope stealth with a different effect.i mean i could still permastealth with your changes on deadeye but it just would be more clunky and if i still cant fight better out of stealth, i wont fight more out of stealth. nerfing stealth access will just make deadeye harder to play but not more interesting to fight against. again if you want deadeye to fight more visible, give them tools to do so properly. currently they are just too vulnerable to stay visible too long.your suggestions are just outright nerfs not just changes (neither a 1s snipers cover is of any use nor malice that you can build up in a second if you cant enter stealth) , for nerf you have to aswell explain the current balance issue in context of the mode you want to address it. but your reason for those nerfs is mostly 'not fun to fight against' wich is no need for a nerf, but a change in playstyle is debateable.

Hmm, clear overview. I've never used Daredevil in such a way so I wasn't aware that the two had such very similar Stealth-uptime abilities.Then indeed, Stealth should be placed somewhere else too. I still don't think Dodge-roll is the way to go (and again, neither for Daredevil). So I think my ideas still stand for this topic as it's regarding the Silent Scope trait.Maybe something with 'One in the Chamber' to give 3 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip..? Would also allow for some pretty ridiculous stuff with Shadow Meld. Plus it's current effect is quite lackluster I think?Maybe we should create a new topic about this...

[bq pd.2148]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:So another attempt at this (and please, @"Jack Redline.5379" feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (

though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue

), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

stealth on dodge and previously on kneel give atleast 30% stealth uptime. daredevil with base endurance regen using bound for stealth is at least 30%+other effects. those f2 abilities are 3 second per mark wich has 25s cooldown wich is just 12% uptime. you can improve on it with improvisation or One in the Chamber but you can aswell greatly increase endurance gains on daredevil. there would be easier stealth access on daredevil if you replace silent scope stealth with a different effect.i mean i could still permastealth with your changes on deadeye but it just would be more clunky and if i still cant fight better out of stealth, i wont fight more out of stealth. nerfing stealth access will just make deadeye harder to play but not more interesting to fight against. again if you want deadeye to fight more visible, give them tools to do so properly. currently they are just too vulnerable to stay visible too long.your suggestions are just outright nerfs not just changes (neither a 1s snipers cover is of any use nor malice that you can build up in a second if you cant enter stealth) , for nerf you have to aswell explain the current balance issue in context of the mode you want to address it. but your reason for those nerfs is mostly 'not fun to fight against' wich is no need for a nerf, but a change in playstyle is debateable.

Hmm, clear overview. I've never used Daredevil in such a way so I wasn't aware that the two had such very similar Stealth-uptime abilities.Then indeed, Stealth should be placed somewhere else too. I still don't think Dodge-roll is the way to go (and again, neither for Daredevil). So I think my ideas still stand for this topic as it's regarding the Silent Scope trait.Maybe something with 'One in the Chamber' to give 3 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip..? Would also allow for some pretty ridiculous stuff with Shadow Meld. Plus it's current effect is quite lackluster I think?Maybe we should create a new topic about this...

i mean in both cases endurance is often used for stealth instead of evading opposing attacks, thats a big cost and should be balanced IMO. if stealth is removed from dodge then some builds that pretty much spamm CC can completely avoid you from going into stealth as stealth builds usually dont have as much mobility/evade. yet they completely depend on stealth. you also cant keep a necro from entering his shroud and that is not even as important as stealth for a thief build around it. imo if you want to nerf stealthplay for whatever reason as it is still not meta in any mode, then you should adress lethality out of stealth instead of the access. i mean mesmer has several instant stealth skills yet why shouldnt thief have them when they can build around it.you can build around stealth and play without it and then tell me how interesting the fight is. because again you still cant fight visible with deadeye when build for stealth.

[Ghos.1326]

@"Vornollo.5182" said:Yeah, in the current state of the game it's manageable, doesn't make it good.I'll reiterate that I got nothing against the DE having more Stealth and easier access to it. Having uninterruptible access to stealth in any form (like I said, that includes Bound to a certain degree) is what does slightly bother me though.Yes, I can guess the positioning of stealthed opponents quite reliably (maining thief, you just develop the habbit of recognizing stealthed movement based on a simple "what would I do" logic), so in that regard I'm hardly bothered by it. Heck, I can 9/10 times still reliably time a Basi Venom and/or Immob right at the end of the Rifle DE's dodge and get a few free hits in or force a CD.I am however also able to acknowledge that despite there being ways to work with it, it's just not fun and feels to me like another dumbing down of the game. Ironically, and rather stupidly if I say so myself, it's too much in line with them putting the CD on Blinding Powder. Yes it gave uninterruptible Stealth too, but the CD on that was/is quite massive and it allowed for really nice and sometimes very niche plays and uses. It was fun to use as a Thief and your opponents would actually be fine with it, because it was simply a cleverly timed bit of play (well... Most of the time, we all know how much people like to whine...).With this Silent Scope though, I don't know... It doesn't feel right. It's too much of a "fire and forget" sort of thing. Yes you can use it to a very tactical degree, much like Blinding Powder in that regard. Yeah, sacrificing a dodge for a bit of stealth is a big cost in my opinion as well. But I cannot shake the feeling that it's not good for the game. There's too little to be done against it.Guess what it comes down to, I can see the nerf coming and they'll probably overdo it in tenfold by the time the next expansion hits. I'd rather they already make something out of it which is fun, useful and allows for good play and counterplay.I don't know the best way to go about it.I just tried to offer some ideas that I'd think make the game more interesting to play for everyone, but when I play Rifle DE right now, I just feel a bit "dirty", performing a bit of a cheap trick... It's clearly not my playstyle, I'm afraid.

Also MUDse, I really like the idea of Death's Retreat getting an evadeframe. Atleast the part where your character makes that little jump up in the air right before porting backwards. I'd be fine with the whole cast too, but that initial jump seems like a bare minimum. No idea why they didn't do that in the first place... But it'd be nice. Something that you could use to like About-Face and cast, to proc some Necro Marks and stuff... Would be quite nice!

Babazhook, I don't find the evade on a weaponskill unhealthy because everyone can see what's going on. Start to finish. You know what happens, you know how people will move, you know when you can make use of the aftercast... So on and so forth.Same for ports. You can even play around with ports by lighting up the return points and such. There's more counterplay to it simply because you can see what's going on. You can to some extent do the same against this Stealth on Dodge, I know that. I can do that. I'm actually able to play around with it against most DE's to force their CD's often early on in a fight.Again. I'm fine with Stealth, even easy access to it. This way of getting stealth however... Again, it just doesn't sit right with me.I don't have a solution for it either, not one that would actually improve the gameplay for both the DE's making use of that trait, nor for the people facing it.I don't mind it too much personally, I just don't think it's going to be healthy for the game in general in the long run and I fear that it'll get nerfed to oblivion if noone comes up with something more enjoyable for both sides.

What people also don't consider, is not everyone has access to revealed. And again, revealed can be taken away using the Deadeye's elite. But alas, most people won't listen to reason or constructive criticism. I would also like the stealth on dodge to be tuned down.

[Vornollo.5182]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:So another attempt at this (and please, @"Jack Redline.5379" feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (

though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue

), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

stealth on dodge and previously on kneel give atleast 30% stealth uptime. daredevil with base endurance regen using bound for stealth is at least 30%+other effects. those f2 abilities are 3 second per mark wich has 25s cooldown wich is just 12% uptime. you can improve on it with improvisation or One in the Chamber but you can aswell greatly increase endurance gains on daredevil. there would be easier stealth access on daredevil if you replace silent scope stealth with a different effect.i mean i could still permastealth with your changes on deadeye but it just would be more clunky and if i still cant fight better out of stealth, i wont fight more out of stealth. nerfing stealth access will just make deadeye harder to play but not more interesting to fight against. again if you want deadeye to fight more visible, give them tools to do so properly. currently they are just too vulnerable to stay visible too long.your suggestions are just outright nerfs not just changes (neither a 1s snipers cover is of any use nor malice that you can build up in a second if you cant enter stealth) , for nerf you have to aswell explain the current balance issue in context of the mode you want to address it. but your reason for those nerfs is mostly 'not fun to fight against' wich is no need for a nerf, but a change in playstyle is debateable.

Hmm, clear overview. I've never used Daredevil in such a way so I wasn't aware that the two had such very similar Stealth-uptime abilities.Then indeed, Stealth should be placed somewhere else too. I still don't think Dodge-roll is the way to go (and again, neither for Daredevil). So I think my ideas still stand for this topic as it's regarding the Silent Scope trait.Maybe something with 'One in the Chamber' to give 3 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip..? Would also allow for some pretty ridiculous stuff with Shadow Meld. Plus it's current effect is quite lackluster I think?Maybe we should create a new topic about this...

i mean in both cases endurance is often used for stealth instead of evading opposing attacks, thats a big cost and should be balanced IMO. if stealth is removed from dodge then some builds that pretty much spamm CC can completely avoid you from going into stealth as stealth builds usually dont have as much mobility/evade. yet they completely depend on stealth. you also cant keep a necro from entering his shroud and that is not even as important as stealth for a thief build around it. imo if you want to nerf stealthplay for whatever reason as it is still not meta in any mode, then you should adress lethality out of stealth instead of the access. i mean mesmer has several instant stealth skills yet why shouldnt thief have them when they can build around it.you can build around stealth and play without it and then tell me how interesting the fight is. because again you still cant fight visible with deadeye when build for stealth.

Again, I got nothing against Stealth, stacking of it nor easy access to it.I just find that having the Stealth on a Dodge reduces the potential to counterplay too heavily and think it'll affect the health of the game and will likely result in over-nerfing it for the next expansion, if not before that.DE should definitely shine more in the stealth and the stacking department, I really think it should.I just think there's other ways of adding (more) Stealth in ways that allow for more interesting play and counterplay. Having Stealth access being uninterruptible and relatively spammable at that...That's what I think is bad for the health of the game.There's got to be other things to think off to allow for both easy-access, while still allowing for some counterplay..? Again, I don't play much Rifle Thief, so I'm not too sure about how a different way of Stealth would best be added. I'm also not at all bothered by Rifle DE's, I just don't think any mechanics such as this should be in the game, regardless of profession and/or specializations picked...I'll try and get some more time in as Rifle DE and try to come up with more suitable solutions to it, but really... The current Silent Scope is just not right in my opinion.

[bq pd.2148]

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Vornollo.5182 said:So another attempt at this (and please, @"Jack Redline.5379" feel free to reply to it). What I previously suggested, because I don't think simply reducing the Stealth duration will do anything meaningful to DE gameplay, both to play with it, as well as against it.Dodging to leave behind a 1-second 'Snipers Cover' would block standard projectiles chasing you and allow you to quickly react to it by using a Leap or blast finisher in it to get into stealth. It'd also allow for a little extra counterplay in terms of interrupting the potential stealth in a variety of ways. Which in turn could also result in extra baiting potential etc.Another option, to improve on Malice Stacking, was/is to add 1 Malice on Dodge (or maybe on successful evade). Something like that would need a heavier ICD though, I think, considering how quickly it could allow for all the bonuses that Malice provides first thought comes to 8 seconds ICD, but I think that might be a little too much ni hindsight.Instead of tying it to dodges, how about getting 1 Malice whenever you enter Stealth..? Still ties in nicely to the more Stealth-oriented playstyle that usually accompanies Deadeye. Considered a 2 second ICD on that, which I still think seems quite fair.

Deadeye also recieved the Stealth on using the F2 abilities with recent patches (July 10th) so in a sense, I feel like that's enough to "replace" the easy access to stealth from the dodge. It's something MUDse pointed out (

though he was on about the Daredevil then being better at Dodging for stealth, which I still also consider a big issue

), removing the stealth on dodge without putting it somewhere else would be bad in a way, but I truly do think that this covers it. Though then I'd lower the required Malice from 5 stacks to maybe 2 or 3. Considering the animation and Cast time on it, I think even having no required Malice on it would be fine. Would still allow for better counterplay. than putting Stealth on a Dodge. DE's could opt for Improvisation to get double the 3 second stealth with relative ease as well...Keeping it easy for the DE is fine, again... I just think there's ways to improve the fun for both those playing Rifle DE by requiring a little more tactical play regarding stealth, but also for those playing against it by presenting a little more counterplay too.

stealth on dodge and previously on kneel give atleast 30% stealth uptime. daredevil with base endurance regen using bound for stealth is at least 30%+other effects. those f2 abilities are 3 second per mark wich has 25s cooldown wich is just 12% uptime. you can improve on it with improvisation or One in the Chamber but you can aswell greatly increase endurance gains on daredevil. there would be easier stealth access on daredevil if you replace silent scope stealth with a different effect.i mean i could still permastealth with your changes on deadeye but it just would be more clunky and if i still cant fight better out of stealth, i wont fight more out of stealth. nerfing stealth access will just make deadeye harder to play but not more interesting to fight against. again if you want deadeye to fight more visible, give them tools to do so properly. currently they are just too vulnerable to stay visible too long.your suggestions are just outright nerfs not just changes (neither a 1s snipers cover is of any use nor malice that you can build up in a second if you cant enter stealth) , for nerf you have to aswell explain the current balance issue in context of the mode you want to address it. but your reason for those nerfs is mostly 'not fun to fight against' wich is no need for a nerf, but a change in playstyle is debateable.

Hmm, clear overview. I've never used Daredevil in such a way so I wasn't aware that the two had such very similar Stealth-uptime abilities.Then indeed, Stealth should be placed somewhere else too. I still don't think Dodge-roll is the way to go (and again, neither for Daredevil). So I think my ideas still stand for this topic as it's regarding the Silent Scope trait.Maybe something with 'One in the Chamber' to give 3 seconds of Stealth upon casting a Cantrip..? Would also allow for some pretty ridiculous stuff with Shadow Meld. Plus it's current effect is quite lackluster I think?Maybe we should create a new topic about this...

i mean in both cases endurance is often used for stealth instead of evading opposing attacks, thats a big cost and should be balanced IMO. if stealth is removed from dodge then some builds that pretty much spamm CC can completely avoid you from going into stealth as stealth builds usually dont have as much mobility/evade. yet they completely depend on stealth. you also cant keep a necro from entering his shroud and that is not even as important as stealth for a thief build around it. imo if you want to nerf stealthplay for whatever reason as it is still not meta in any mode, then you should adress lethality out of stealth instead of the access. i mean mesmer has several instant stealth skills yet why shouldnt thief have them when they can build around it.you can build around stealth and play without it and then tell me how interesting the fight is. because again you still cant fight visible with deadeye when build for stealth.

Again, I got nothing against Stealth, stacking of it nor easy access to it.I just find that having the Stealth on a Dodge reduces the potential to counterplay too heavily and think it'll affect the health of the game and will likely result in over-nerfing it for the next expansion, if not before that.DE should definitely shine more in the stealth and the stacking department, I really think it should.I just think there's other ways of adding (more) Stealth in ways that allow for more interesting play and counterplay. Having Stealth access being uninterruptible and relatively spammable at that...That's what I think is bad for the health of the game.There's got to be other things to think off to allow for both easy-access, while still allowing for some counterplay..? Again, I don't play much Rifle Thief, so I'm not too sure about how a different way of Stealth would best be added. I'm also not at all bothered by Rifle DE's, I just don't think any mechanics such as this should be in the game, regardless of profession and/or specializations picked...I'll try and get some more time in as Rifle DE and try to come up with more suitable solutions to it, but really... The current Silent Scope is just not right in my opinion.

i mean considering that we have undodgeable reveals in the game... you cant dodge sic em and lock on wont ever go on cooldown if you dodge the trigger. but your right i dont need uninterruptable access to stealth that frequent but more then just blinding powder would be nice. i only need it as frequent when fighting too many opponents, against 1 tho usually 1-2 times per fight is enough wich could even be the same skill used twice i mean i have time as long as i can access stealth. making mark instant would both improve visible potential of deadeyes as they can then interrupt with it properly and would grant uninterruptable stealth with hidden thief. together with blinding powder that could be enough for uninterruptable stealth access. yet i still dont know were to put the silent scope stealth, without it feeling too clunky or OP tying it to current skills.before it was on a 2 ammo 10s cd but kneel doesnt have cd anymore so you cant really put it there anymore. i personally think using endurance for that stealth is good or at least better then using ini for it. because spending ini would reduce offense and spending endurance reduces defense wich fits better. maybe an f3 with little cast time 1/4 or max 1/2 like 'hold breath' consumes 1 dodge for 3s stealth. would be faster then a dodge and you wouldnt move from spot wich would be actually good offensively (especially on some ledges) and would leave more counterplay. then mark instant and DR an evade , then we are good :3

[Turk.5460]

We don't need stealth on dodge. Frequent stealth is necessary with how little staying power we have in a toe-to-toe fight, but this uninterruptible stealth is not the way to go. I run it, obviously, it's too good not to. But honestly I'm getting kinda bored with it. It's too easy... :\