Why do you vote against duoq in plat 2 as silver player?

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Legatus.3608 said:

EVERYBODY is affected by duo queue regardless of rank, I'm getting really tired of this same false argument over and over

What you're saying is factually incorrect, there's no debating this point.

THEN EXPLAIN WHY you would be affected while you are under 1600 rating. The matchmaking system still works the same, DuoQ or not. The matchmaking system will still put people with an overall average equal MMR together in 1 match. There is nothing incorrect about it.

[OneYenShort.3189]

@Nash.3974 said:The recent poll just amazed me how many people who aren’t affected by anything voted against what the majority of the affected people want.Polls only target forumites who BOTHER to respond. Too small of a sample to really know a majority of the game itself.

To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?Fact according to who's opinion? As you've just shown a small sampling doesn't, let alone there is no means to get a large actually meaningful sample.

Because also people who aren’t affected by that get to vote and somehow most of them like to vote no.See first comment.

I‘m wondering about why do you vote for something you have no clue about/ you aren’t affected by?Because it is there. As meaningless as it is, that is my best guess. After the YEARS of being indaunted with web sites, face book, etc. doing polls/surveys/quizes/what sort of sandwich are you/etc. people are just programed to respond.

Explain please!!!

If it makes you feel better at all, I did not vote in your poll, and I have no idea what duoq is.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I'm plat 2. I'd like to say that I would hate duo queue in any tier.

[Legatus.3608]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:

@Legatus.3608 said:

EVERYBODY is affected by duo queue regardless of rank, I'm getting really tired of this same false argument over and over

What you're saying is factually incorrect, there's no debating this point.

THEN EXPLAIN WHY you would be affected while you are under 1600 rating. The matchmaking system still works the same, DuoQ or not. The matchmaking system will still put people with an overall average equal MMR together in 1 match. There is nothing incorrect about it.

You are factually incorrect, the mmr may encounter games where you and your buddy would be on separate teams if you weren't in a duo queue. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. That doesn't account for several other factors that give duo queue an advantage, either.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Kako.1930" said:"Look at all the amazing people supporting this amazing opinion for such an amazing cause, while all those evil people support the evil opposing position for their own evil purposes. Clearly, only the good players voted for my opinion, but the poll was swayed by the evil players who are quite obviously of lower tier and whose opinions should not count for anything."

Personally, I don't care either way what they do with the queue system at this point, but listening to the logic behind some of these posts is just making me cringe.

Agreed.If you don't agree with something or believe the metrics should say something other than what they say, even when the metrics are presented with reasonable explanations, you make no positive impact by strawmanning.

[shadowpass.4236]

Coordination lends itself to an advantage no matter what online PvP game you play. Why haven't they all gone solo only? Because it's completely counterintuitive to FORCE players to play ALONE in an ONLINE game.

The same people who are advocating for solo que only are also the ones complaining about how their are no pros left and use the lack of population as reason to justify themselves. Newsflash! Those go hand in hand.

Not to mention solo que only completely killed 99% of all PvP guilds in the game in an instant. There's absolutely 0 reason to be in a PvP guild since you can't play together anyways. This game was more competitive back when we had 5 mans. It was actually lively and people were excited to play matches alone to find new friends to play with, or in a group to have fun. People were recruiting in map chat and trying to spread positivity. However, once it went solo que only, it has become increasingly toxic by the day.

It's also funny that the people that voted for solo que only also say, "The polls wouldn't be 50/50 because the people who are happy with the current system don't even come on the forums." Yet, the people who were happy with duo/team que didn't bother to vote either because they were just having fun in game. Now all of those players quit and are waiting for it to be brought back.

[kipthelip.5802]

There are tons of friendless wannabe victims is all I got.

[Sanity Obscure.6054]

Regarding the arguments of "All 1600+ players are for it," well I am not.

Since it apparently seems to matter to have an opinion - https://i.imgur.com/8wtS8sP.jpg

The argumentum ad populum fallacy excuse for those who are 1600+ is not enough to allow it back into gameplay.

[Falan.1839]

The population just doesn't allow anything like this atm. The matches would just get even sillier, because the only way to balance a match with two 1750+ players in one team would mean to stuff the other 3 spots with low gold / silver league players.

This video kind of explains how it would look, even though it would probably be even worse today:

[Sampson.2403]

I think its ridiculous how people are using the argument that duo que shouldn't be allowed because it potentially gives those 2 players an advantage. Well no shit shirlocks, that and having more fun with your friends is the reason you team up with people.

If you don't wanna play with other people on an MMO, that is totally fine but that's your choice to play solo. Any game with a team mode where you chose to play solo puts you at a relative disadvantage right off the bat, that's just common sense.

Online games are all about collaboration and relationships. Forcing people to play alone will have a direct impact on a declining population and overall decrease interest in the game mode.

[Arioch.4810]

I did not vote in the poll, but here's my 2 cents:In my opinion, with current population it's not feasible to have duoQ. Quality of matches suffer atm solely because teams are not balanced: While agregate rating of opposing teams is close, rating of players aka parts of the team has a big deviation. In a minute or two of a match you can assess individual opponents and identify "weak links" - players not rotating properly/playing in suboptimal level -> after that you focus priority targets (better players, who contribute more to opposing score) and start farming low priority targets while holding nodes.What i noticed - this is ofc my estimate (so anegdotical at best) - is that every time i wait for 4+ minutes in queue i get a blowout game, one way or the other.If we could improve match quality by either increasing population (not likely) or concentrating population in some time frames (for instance -giving some extra reward for PvP matches played between 6 and 8 PM CET) then by all means duoQ/tripleQ would not be an issue. But with current team composition, i think it's not good idea for the game mode to bring another variable into play that would impact quality of PvP. (i think we all know the argument by now: 2plat 3 silver vs 5 gold - which team do you think takes it, and will any of those 10 players enjoy that game)

That's my take on the original issue - poll about duoQ. I did not post it in the original thread because i do not play enough PvP at the moment to have recognition of other players that would lend some respect to my opinion. Also i do not have enough success to base my argument on that angle.

Regarding this thread:Bad strawmans. Bad strawmans everywhere. :pensive:Risk of strawman arguments in written form - you have no wiggle room later on to clarify/adjust your argument.You have to be creative - for instance embed personal info about yourself into the statement that contains your argument: Be it nationality, gender, religious belief,sexual orientation ( as a Caucasian male i think that..... you get the idea) That way any objection/opposition to your argument can look like attack based on your person. It's much easier defending strawman if you can accuse opponent of being racist/bigot/misogynist. Then again it is morally questionable... but hey, using strawmans in discussion usually means debating in bad faith, might as well be good at it.

[Malediktus.9250]

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

[HeadCrowned.6834]

@Legatus.3608 said:You are factually incorrect, the mmr may encounter games where you and your buddy would be on separate teams if you weren't in a duo queue. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. That doesn't account for several other factors that give duo queue an advantage, either.

Thats a fact, but its an irrelevant one. Its so simple but for some reason you dont understand.Lets say you and your friend are decent, both with 1800 rating. The matchmaking system will make sure that both teams are equally divided in average MMR. Lets say you both end up in different teams like this:

Blue team: Red team:You: 1800 Friend: 1800Teammate 1: 1600 Teammate 1: 1600

Teammate 2: 1600 Teammate 2: 1600Teammate 3: 1700 Teammate 3: 1700Teammate 4: 1700 Teammate 4: 1700Average MMR: 1680 Average MMR: 1680

Now lets suppose you join as DuoQ. The matchmaking system then will make teams like this:

Blue team: Red team:You: 1800 Teammate 1: 1700Friend: 1800 Teammate 2: 1700Teammate 1: 1600 Teammate 3: 1700Teammate 2: 1600 Teammate 4: 1700Teammate 3: 1600 Teammate 5: 1600Average MMR: 1680 Average MMR: 1680

So now your team actually has 3 people below the average MMR, while the other only has 1. Now its just gonna be the question: are the 2 DuoQ'ers able to carry the lower players, or is the other team able to beat them? The average skill is the same, so we don't know.So the only advantage left is the possibility to voice comm by the DuoQ'ers. Well if that is the problem, then don't even play this game at all.

[Azrielvon.7836]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:

@Azrielvon.7836 said:Simply because it only benefits a small pool of players? You balance a game only for your few friends? LOL. The PVP community is made out of more than 'top players' :)

Nice strawman btw

Such a dumb comment xD. A buff to elementalist only benefits elementalists and therefore a small pool of players, that doesnt make it necessarily bad. Benefitting and creating an unfair advantage (maybe you mean that?) are two completely different things you know.

It is clear you cannot see the opinion of others and resort to Ad Hominem. No point trying to reason with someone like you. :)

[sephiroth.4217]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Kako.1930" said:"Look at all the amazing people supporting this amazing opinion for such an amazing cause, while all those evil people support the evil opposing position for their own evil purposes. Clearly, only the good players voted for my opinion, but the poll was swayed by the evil players who are quite obviously of lower tier and whose opinions should not count for anything."

Personally, I don't care either way what they do with the queue system at this point, but listening to the logic behind some of these posts is just making me cringe.

Agreed.If you don't agree with something or believe the metrics should say something other than what they say, even when the metrics are presented with reasonable explanations, you make no positive impact by strawmanning.

It logically makes perfect sense tbh... It doesn't effect players below the rating at all, nothing changes for those players. They rightfully don't have a say, including me being an average top gold player...

Just like the removal of team queue: PvE players are a larger portion of the playerbase compared to the original PvP players but PvE players voted in solo/duo queue because pvp was "too hard", sure fire way to remove their competition....

Same things were happening with the original WvW polls until the playerbase came together and asked anet to force a rank up requirement to anyone who wanted to vote and even then by that stage people were already angry with some changes forced upon them by the PvE playerbase the players actually decided to help try and break the game mode by troll voting in the portable WvW cannons.

TLDR: This game has a history of changing elements of the game based off the ones who aren't actually involved, now gimmie back my team queue :tired_face:

[Milan.9035]

pve players want duo right they are always in partys, raid and fractals. anyways i cant believe people are still talking about this.

how can you have a 5v5 game that allows duo and then giving rating to each person. its either all solo or 5 man teams. choose! or right we can already do that. ranked and at. want to play with friends go play unranked or at. you dont need every game mode to be made for you.

[Revilrad.1962]

Can anyone explain it to me why the "pros" complaining about solo queue arent just playing AT? Seriously? There. That is your dream. 5v5. You can get your dream team and go for it.My Explanation of current state :ANET introduced A frikkin legendary backpack which takes ages to complete in a ranked gametype. They also time-gated it to oblivion so you need multiple seasons to get it. I seriously think that is the problem. Because the "PvE noobs" you get teamed up with, dont care how the match goes. They just want to get the backpack and gtfo. But the surplus of new players will keep that ranks filled.I think Anet should introduce a pro leaugue parallel to the normal ranked league. After you reach platinum you should Change leagues and go play "there". This new league will have its own pool of players hence the matchmaking wont be pairing people with silver/bronzes because there will be none.And the gold/silver/bronze players can keep their soloqueue becasue getting stomped by 2 pros communicating via TS gets boring very fast even if you are only farming for a legendary and dont want to continue PvPing.

[shadowpass.4236]

@"Revilrad.1962" said:Can anyone explain it to me why the "pros" complaining about solo queue arent just playing AT? Seriously? There. That is your dream. 5v5. You can get your dream team and go for it.

We do. But that's only an hour a day we actually get to have fun with our friends. The rest of the day we're logged off for the most part because solo que is unbearably frustrating.

Not to mention the ATs are usually 500-0 roflstomps until the finals because the ATs, unlike ranked ques, aren't gated by division. ATs are actually MORE unbalanced than regular ques because you can have a team of legends going up against a team of bronze players.

To put it in perspective, back when we were allowed to play with our friends, we could play with our buddies all day and have fun against other 5 mans/duos/solos of equal skill. Now, we're locked into an hour a day of unbalanced matches. Keep in mind that people have lives, so making more than 1 AT a day is impossible for a lot of us.

Also, most of the top players don't mind going up against premades even as a solo because the matches are harder, more fun, and more competitive. The fact that we have lower division players voting to take away our fun when they aren't even affected by it is pretty ridiculous.

And the fact still stands, this is an ONLINE, TEAM based PvP gamemode that REMOVED the ability to play with friends.

[Faux Play.6104]

@HeadCrowned.6834 said:

@"Legatus.3608" said:You are factually incorrect, the mmr may encounter games where you and your buddy would be on separate teams if you weren't in a duo queue. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. That doesn't account for several other factors that give duo queue an advantage, either.

Thats a fact, but its an irrelevant one. Its so simple but for some reason you dont understand.Lets say you and your friend are decent, both with 1800 rating. The matchmaking system will make sure that both teams are equally divided in average MMR. Lets say you both end up in different teams like this:

Blue team: Red team:You: 1800 Friend: 1800Teammate 1: 1600 Teammate 1: 1600

Teammate 2: 1600 Teammate 2: 1600Teammate 3: 1700 Teammate 3: 1700Teammate 4: 1700 Teammate 4: 1700Average MMR: 1680 Average MMR: 1680

Now lets suppose you join as DuoQ. The matchmaking system then will make teams like this:

Blue team: Red team:You: 1800 Teammate 1: 1700Friend: 1800 Teammate 2: 1700Teammate 1: 1600 Teammate 3: 1700Teammate 2: 1600 Teammate 4: 1700Teammate 3: 1600 Teammate 5: 1600Average MMR: 1680 Average MMR: 1680

So now your team actually has 3 people below the average MMR, while the other only has 1. Now its just gonna be the question: are the 2 DuoQ'ers able to carry the lower players, or is the other team able to beat them? The average skill is the same, so we don't know.So the only advantage left is the possibility to voice comm by the DuoQ'ers. Well if that is the problem, then don't even play this game at all.

You aren't accounting for padding. If two 1800's queued together they would be in queue long enough to have padding added so their rating gets dropped.

The below is clipped from the wiki page on the match maker. So for every second after 5m (used to be 3m) your rating will be adjusted by 4 points. so if you are in queue for 7 minutes you will be de-rated by 480 points for matchmaking, but not rating calculations after the match.<Rating start="5m" end="10m" max="1200" min="25"/>Padding is added every second you wait in the queue after Filter/Rating/@start has passed. This is an outlier fail-safe to ensure everyone gets a match.

[Revilrad.1962]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Revilrad.1962" said:Can anyone explain it to me why the "pros" complaining about solo queue arent just playing AT? Seriously? There. That is your dream. 5v5. You can get your dream team and go for it.

We do. But that's only an hour a day we actually get to have fun with our friends. The rest of the day we're logged off for the most part because solo que is unbearably frustrating.

Not to mention the ATs are usually 500-0 roflstomps until the finals because the ATs, unlike ranked ques, aren't gated by division. ATs are actually MORE unbalanced than regular ques because you can have a team of legends going up against a team of bronze players.

To put it in perspective, back when we were allowed to play with our friends, we could play with our buddies all day and have fun against other 5 mans/duos/solos of equal skill. Now, we're locked into an hour a day of unbalanced matches. Keep in mind that people have lives, so making more than 1 AT a day is impossible for a lot of us.

Also, most of the top players don't mind going up against premades even as a solo because the matches are harder, more fun, and more competitive. The fact that we have lower division players voting to take away our fun when they aren't even affected by it is pretty ridiculous.

And the fact still stands, this is an ONLINE, TEAM based PvP gamemode that REMOVED the ability to play with friends.

Then What do you say about my soluton? A seperate platinum and upwards league where you can do solo or whatever que you want? This way both of the sides get what they want.

[Math.5123]

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

And I don't want golds in my team. So all golds should be removed from the game.See how this argument isn't holding up?

[Airdive.2613]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

And I don't want golds in my team. So all golds should be removed from the game.See how this argument isn't holding up?

I don't mind doing away with gold tier. The population is spread thin anyway.Let platinum immediately follow silver, it would change nothing except the name.

[Math.5123]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

And I don't want golds in my team. So all golds should be removed from the game.See how this argument isn't holding up?

I don't mind doing away with gold tier. The population is spread thin anyway.Let platinum immediately follow silver, it would change nothing except the name.

You clearly missed the point

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

And I don't want golds in my team. So all golds should be removed from the game.See how this argument isn't holding up?

I don't mind doing away with gold tier. The population is spread thin anyway.Let platinum immediately follow silver, it would change nothing except the name.

You clearly missed the point

Or it’s the only way certain players could ever get into Plat. If it can’t be done by personal performance/merit better lower the bar.

[Airdive.2613]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:I didn't get to platinum this season (just thief things), but I generally hate duos in my team because most of them are worse than two separate players.

@Nash.3974 said:To be more specific: it’s a fact that the majority of the plat 2+ players want duoq back. Then why do polls not always show this is a result?

And it's a fact exactly how?

I agree, I dont want duos in my team. So it should be removed from 1600- MMR too

And I don't want golds in my team. So all golds should be removed from the game.See how this argument isn't holding up?

I don't mind doing away with gold tier. The population is spread thin anyway.Let platinum immediately follow silver, it would change nothing except the name.

You clearly missed the point

So did you. Better luck next time you try to compare something that affects the gameplay to something that does not.