Change the direction of conditions from burst to overtime

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Reading this, keep in mind this is to encourage discussion, mostly about the role condition builds have nowadays, which I think is not, or at least shouldn’t, be intended

It’s a topic that is sitting on my mind for a while, that for a condi build to be viable nowadays it needs to be able to do a massive burst of conditions in a very short time coupled with several cover conditions to be able to kill opponents.

Considering a few factors that are pretty much facts at this point:1) Conditions were never meant to perform quick bursts, but instead were meant to be the dominant type of sustained damage dealers build.2) No one likes to be killed by a quick burst of conditions, especially when often their cleanse will miss the mark because of cover conditions.

So it’s not hard to conclude that conditions and mechanics that interact with them (cleanses mainly), are not in a good spot. I’ve seen suggestions in the past, but I felt none of them nailed the issues with conditions quite right, so here’s my own take of things.

I think it is much better to start looking at the issues from the non-viable condition builds rather than the top tier ones, to understand why condition builds are forced to be burst loke they are today.

If you ever tried to play a condition build such as condi ranger, rev, engie or warrior against a firebrand or a weaver, you’ll get what I mean when I say: The game has too much cleanses right now.

You are never really able to put out pressure to kill said builds, and even against some builds that are less infamous for being bunker. even if they heavily misplay. They have to misplay very hard to drop against a non-viable condi build, or rather I say a non-burst one.

So my first suggestion would be to nerf cleansing, pretty heavily, across the board.

But naturally, if you nerf cleansing without dealing with the already strong condition builds, then they will dominate very hard.

So while doing that, there’s two options to prevent burst condi builds to be even more prevalent.

1) The easy one that works: nerf them. Reduce the stacks of conditions on some outlier skills, remove some cover conditions such as cripple and vulnerability.

2) reduce the damage conditions themselves do, but not by a ton. Why:This aims to create two types of conditions builds:

1) consistent amount of DoT that varies very slightly if your opponent consistently hits skills on you. What I have in mind here is stuff like condition ranger, warrior, necromancer, ele and revenant.

2) does damage in “waves”. Has dead time but has higher DoT than ordinary condi builds during its peak times. Simillar in playstyle to current mesmer, thief, engie and guardian, but kill time over a single burst is vastly increased, aiming to change the pace from “cleanse or die instantly” to “you”ll die soon if you don’t cleanse and keep taking hits”, but since the damage is not as extreme, you can choose tk counter pressure before you turn defensive. Keep in mind cleanses are much more rare, so the damage is more likely to connect.

[dominik.9721]

Conditions are actually the best example to represent the power creep.

Just consider the warriors skill "shake it off": Went from cleanses 1 condition in 2012 to cleanses 6 conditions + 2 loads in 2018Remember when geomancy+doom (3 bleeds+poison) was an actual powerfull sigill combination?

Nowadays we have an inflation of powerfull conditionskills that apply torment,confusion and burning and also an inflation of condition cleanses to keep in track with it.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@"dominik.9721" said:Conditions are actually the best example to represent the power creep.

Just consider the warriors skill "shake it off": Went from cleanses 1 condition in 2012 to cleanses 6 conditions + 2 loads in 2018Remember when geomancy+doom (3 bleeds+poison) was an actual powerfull sigill combination?

Nowadays we have an inflation of powerfull conditionskills that apply torment,confusion and burning and also an inflation of condition cleanses to keep in track with it.

Pretty much

[Blackari.2051]

I remember the days of mesmer clone on death builds in pvp, when u killed all 3 clones/phantasms you had maybe 3 conditions on you at best, with max of 3 stacks of confusion or so..... just look at any pvp video from like first year or so, burning did not stack yet it dealt good amount of damage through its duration.

But let's be real here, conditions were buffed to the roof cuz noobs could not play power builds since better players just anticipated bursts and dodged it (like it should be in balanced state of the game) so Anet said well, we are a game mostly for casual therefore they need a way to perform even tho they cannot play properly .... voila condis got stacks, not only in furation but in intensity, then dmg boost etc. etc. then hot with spammable condition builds came and we are doomed since then ....

[HeadCrowned.6834]

I agree. Nerfs across the board (to reduce burst but also to reduce cleanses). This will open up some build variety.

[Mbelch.9028]

I think this is a fantastic idea. If it's brought to light, Rev needs a few nerfs to make sure it isn't out of control OP. Currently, the only thing taming the Rev beast is having condi folks on your team. Even then, their damage is scary.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

I think the removal damage of condition should be added to the punishment

[Virelion.4128]

Nerf burst across all dmg sourcess. Conditions need to burst right now because of very fast meta. In current meta slow condi builds are just blow up. The truth is the only way you stay relevant at the game is if you one shot someone. Doesnt matter with power or condi

[Yannir.4132]

While this idea has merit, I don't think it's the most pressing issue in PvP atm. These ridiculous one-shot builds need to go away first, then we can take a look at conditions.

[MyPuppy.8970]

To be fair, weaver has great condi removal but has to invest 2 grandmaster traits for that (and other minor&major ones). If Ele and Guard have superior condi cleanse, it is also because they have the lowest health pools. If you nerf ele cleansing ability, it must come with a huge trade off since it is its only strong point left.

[Gandarel.5091]

Anet removing amulets instead of balancing the game is also a problem. It's almost impossible to build a sidenode condi spec because there's just no viable option for sustain now (Mirage being the only exception because it can chain so much evasion/blind/cc for defense). Carrion/Rabid/Sage can't really keep up, Cele is useless and Settler/Mercenary amulet was removed.

You can nerf condi and cleansing, if condi specs have no real sustain to pull off the "damage over time" thing then it won't make a difference.

[Revilrad.1962]

I think this will also clean the board in terms of visiblity.I am playing Guardian Main and have lots of condi cleanse. Even then I am constantly getting Conditions, cleansing them and getting them in bulk again and cleaning them again etc. My Bar is a mess 50 icons coming in and out. It is impossbile to see what exactly damaging you. Flashy Effects dont help either.

You need skill to stay calm and read telegraphing mvoes and dodge out of Melee/Ranged attacks. Same goes for blocking.Then there is instant CC Fields which clouds the screen and everything flashes (looking at you Necro).So Yeah the whole condition/cleansing thing must become rarer

[Hiki.9310]

It's going to be hard trying to play slow condition builds when power builds can one shot you.

[Arbalest.4506]

Actually all profession have very good access to condition cleanse.All profession have access to trait like remove condition when dodge, or stealth or heal. Those + condition removal from utilities + class mechanic + high vitality are huge advantage over condition builds.

But players don't want to take them because it is against their play style. They love to see those huge 12k crits every time they attack. Or 20k hit after few seconds of 'setup' behind walls.

No one like to be killed regardless what kind of damage that kills them. They just hate to admit defeat against player who are 'less skilled' than them.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@Arbalest.4506 said:Actually all profession have very good access to condition cleanse.All profession have access to trait like remove condition when dodge, or stealth or heal. Those + condition removal from utilities + class mechanic + high vitality are huge advantage over condition builds.

But players don't want to take them because it is against their play style. They love to see those huge 12k crits every time they attack. Or 20k hit after few seconds of 'setup' behind walls.

No one like to be killed regardless what kind of damage that kills them. They just hate to admit defeat against player who are 'less skilled' than them.

Did you even read my post?

[Arbalest.4506]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:Did you even read my post?

You need to be more specific. I read them and there is my reply.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@Arbalest.4506 said:

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:Did you even read my post?

You need to be more specific. I read them and there is my reply.

A quick tldr ( I guess i should’ve added one)The game has too many cleanses, thus forcing condi builds style to be that of a burst.

Generally my suggestion is to reduce the damage conditions do but heavily nerf cleansing across the board.

This aims to allow condition builds to act as ramp up damage, and damage over time, which I think is the role they should occupy, leaving the burst side of things for power builds.

[Rym.1469]

So there are a few things that could be done to lessen the cleanse vs application race and overall problem.

In order to rebalance conditions, you first have to look at answers we have to conditions. Vast majority of them right now are just complete cleanses and due to their nature it always devolves into mentioned race. If your build doesn't have enough trash conditions (aka conditions of low impact, like single stacks of vuln, cripple etc that serve as a cover for the important ones) you are simply hardcountered to the point no power build ever is.

• 1) In general, I'd be up for more full cleanses on higher cooldown than moderate cleanses on low cooldowns. More Signets of Stamina, less "3 cleanses every 10s". Full cleanses punish overextending with burst conditions. Low cooldown cleanses don't do much against condition overloads, but do kill builds that have less bursty application.

• 2) As a followup to 1), in place of universal low cooldown cleanses, adding more effects that target-cleanse specific conditions can be a welcome addition. Conditions such as Cripple, Blind or - although much more scarce - Weakness.

• 3) Some cleanses can scale with amount of conditions on the player i. e. Instead if x always cleansing 2 conditions, it now always cleanses 1. However, if you have more than, let's say, 6 conditions on yourself, it cleanses additional 2.Again, this helps some condition pressure stick, but punishes overloading with everything at once. The same can be done with scalling Boon removal and corruption.

• 4) Some cleanses could be changed from cleansing conditions right away to reducing their duration of all conditions by a flat amount. So let's say, shaving 2 seconds off all conditions on you. Why flat amount instead of %? Because the aim of change like this is to make gear with Expertise on it more valuable than statlines such as Carrion or Dire.

• 5) Resistance. This boon is problematic. As a final change, I'd much rather see it as a condition damage reduction boon, being the anti-condition equivalent of Protection.

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Now, on the conditions themselves:

First of all, we have to redefine what conditions we have access to. Currently too many condition builds can damage with too many different DoTs in one setup So, by a large, we could streamline the DoT damage between classes.

• The new baseline DoT for every class should be Bleeding, accounting for majority of their DPS (not actual damage - important difference). Across all classes, this should be your staple, accessible DoT you do sustained damage with. It's the simplest of all DoTs - not much damage per tick, but lasts longer, so everything we want.This also means changing things like majority of Mesmer's Torment into bleeding or things like Guardian's Virtue of Justice now applying Bleeding instead of Burning (on passive, on active it could be Burning).This is the most important change of all.

• Next, after every Condition build has it's sustained damage in form of Bleeding, we can introduce more specialized conditions for different classes that are typically on cooldowns. Those are the conditions you burst and land kills with.

1. Necromancer and Revenant - Torment
2. Mesmer and Engineer - Confusion
3. Guardian, Elementalist and Warrior - Burning
4. Ranger and Thief - Poison

Obviously, professions could still have some access to other specialized conditions, but that access should be by all means limited.What with Elite Specializations? What if I want Elite Specialization for Thief that focuses on Burning? That's fine, but it should specialize in Burning instead of Poison. By replacing sources of Poison with Burning, or the specialization coming with a downside of severly nerfing Poison, by massive duration or damage reduction.

• Weakness access should be slightly rebalanced. I see Weakness as a condition made primarly to help slower classes with less invulnerability/block frames to withstand power damage, because they have to soak more. This is why good Weakness access makes perfect sense on classes such as Necromancer, but hardly does on Thief. Thief has his own condition, Blind, which is more suitable for countering being one-shot as a squishy. The Weakness application may obviously not be exlusive to class - but it can be tied to weapons which have less evade frames/trade DPS for defense - i. e. Warrior's mace.

---

Those changes would in my eyes make for a more healthy and enjoyable experience for both sides.

[Arbalest.4506]

I agree with nerf on cleansing. But I don't agree with nerfing condition overall.What most player complain is burst condition from fire and confusion. So here is my suggestion.

1. Fire should be reworked since it is much like a bursty version of bleeding (boring).Reduce the damage by 50%. To compensate, 33% of damage will also damage nearby allies. This will reduce player stacking on points. And if more people get burning, the more damage is inflicted.Profession that only rely on burning (like guardian) , should have access to other conditions like bleeding. They should also have more access to skill that pull enemies to each other. Similar to mesmer focus or rev off hand axe skills.

2. Confusion is actually OK in my opinion. You just have to stop spamming skills when you have it.But since it is impossible to just doing nothing in pvp (and mirage hate train still here despite nerf), confusion should be reworked as well.Whenever confusion inflict damage, it will reduce its stack or duration. To compensate, confusion will inflict damage similar to NPC in PVE.It can be more bursty if you let opponent put 10+ stacks of confusions but you can choose to reduce the damage early by sacrificing your cool down (AA and dodge should neither damage or reduce effectiveness).

[storm.3120]

tldrif you want to nerf condis to actually make damage over time rather than burst... they would have to remove all kind of oneshot/highburst builds because condi builds wouldnt ever stack anything before get killed.@Arbalest.4506 fb have pull alrdy , mesmer hate train is here because its nerfed in wrong places =)

[BeLZedaR.4790]

@Odik.4587 said:tldrif you want to nerf condis to actually make damage over time rather than burst... they would have to remove all kind of oneshot/highburst builds because condi builds wouldnt ever stack anything before get killed.@Arbalest.4506 fb have pull alrdy , mesmer hate train is here because its nerfed in wrong places =)

Correct damage nerfs are needed aswell, or more to be honest, they need cooldown increases instead (most of them). The amount of burst on things like rev or engie is fine, aside from the fact they can burst again too soon.Some outlier literal oneshots loke DJ need an actual damage nerf.

[pah.4931]

I always loved DoTs in games (first MMO was everquest, played a necro). I just don't think GW2 pvp or combat support true DoTs (because people would just play burst power builds if condis were nerfed).

[Ithilwen.1529]

There are too many cleanses and immunities for DoT to be effective.

The more important thing is the current burst of power builds. Loading the other guy with condi does no good if he can easily burst me down before they tick. That's the essence of why condi needs to burst.

[storm.3120]

@BeLZedaR.4790 said:

@Odik.4587 said:tldrif you want to nerf condis to actually make damage over time rather than burst... they would have to remove all kind of oneshot/highburst builds because condi builds wouldnt ever stack anything before get killed.@Arbalest.4506 fb have pull alrdy , mesmer hate train is here because its nerfed in wrong places =)

Correct damage nerfs are needed aswell, or more to be honest, they need cooldown increases instead (most of them). The amount of burst on things like rev or engie is fine, aside from the fact they can burst again too soon.Some outlier literal oneshots loke DJ need an actual damage nerf.Rev and holo damage is fine ? Really ? Holo forge have way too much damage and you said that before as well (they can keep you in CC for 8-9seconds while doing damage on top) . Rev always have 25 might hence why his damage is crazy as well . Anyway I dont think Anet will do anything about it, this all suggestions/discussions wouldnt be even seen xD

[will de grijze jager.6594]

Juist bring the game back to PRE HOT.