Leader of the Pack is probably my favorite trait

[Aomine.5012]

@Lome.8239 said:Soulbeast is fun and might be cool for pvp but for open world soloing core Ranger still reigns supreme, and in group content there may never come a replacement for Druid if they keep it how it is. GotL and GoE are just too good and bring far more to a groups output than OWP.

For roaming I run BM, Nature, Soulbeast.

Soulbeast has some damage trait, so it's not completely inferior to things like skirmishing/ marksmanship, plus I get to use some useful f2 or f3 when merged, plus I get a free rev for pet in merely 10 sec cd.

[Loboling.5293]

@anduriell.6280 said:OWP (one wolf pack) is trash. If wetake a second to look into the skill:

• Does 1 extra attack very half a second. That mean in an spwan of 8 seconds does 16 extra attacks, for your team if traited is 8 extra attacks if they can keep up the pace (usually don't).
• Has a fixed damage independent from your damage. The only thing that actually can benefit from it is sharpened edges trait because any other effect has an internal cool down.
• the damage of this skill is really low: 186 (0,7) wich is lower than the sword auto.
• 60 secs CD which mess with any "on elite skill" rune.

Unless the skill actually clone your original attack (if you did a maul after one sec later produces the same damage or a portion of it, or if you apply conditions apply them again) taking this skill is almost a wasted slot.

Have you tried the skill? haha

On the build I was running (in pvp) it was hitting for 2k dmg. If properly coordinated that is probably a lot of damage from one skill. I liked to pop it with my axe4->5, but it works well for rapid fire with longbow too. Anyway, if you stack all your damage buffs you can practically 1 shot chieftan in hotm with this combo. (more like a million little hits) You kill him really fast, way faster than anyone can respond to normally. I didn't do much of this, only played around with soulbeast, since I found weaver to be more interesting to play around with first.

I'd rather they increase the share duration to full, rather than reduce cooldowns. But this is for sure a cool trait, since some of the stances are quite unique.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Loboling.5293 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:OWP (one wolf pack) is trash. If wetake a second to look into the skill:

• Does 1 extra attack very half a second. That mean in an spwan of 8 seconds does 16 extra attacks, for your team if traited is 8 extra attacks if they can keep up the pace (usually don't).
• Has a fixed damage independent from your damage. The only thing that actually can benefit from it is sharpened edges trait because any other effect has an internal cool down.
• the damage of this skill is really low: 186 (0,7) wich is lower than the sword auto.
• 60 secs CD which mess with any "on elite skill" rune.

Unless the skill actually clone your original attack (if you did a maul after one sec later produces the same damage or a portion of it, or if you apply conditions apply them again) taking this skill is almost a wasted slot.

Have you tried the skill? haha

On the build I was running (in pvp) it was hitting for 2k dmg. If properly coordinated that is probably a lot of damage from one skill. I liked to pop it with my axe4->5, but it works well for rapid fire with longbow too. Anyway, if you stack all your damage buffs you can practically 1 shot chieftan in hotm with this combo. (more like a million little hits) You kill him really fast, way faster than anyone can respond to normally. I didn't do much of this, only played around with soulbeast, since I found weaver to be more interesting to play around with first.

I'd rather they increase the share duration to full, rather than reduce cooldowns. But this is for sure a cool trait, since some of the stances are quite unique.

The people who say OWP is bad have not done the math or played it to it's potential, plain and simple. Although, I still think LotP should give full durations.

[Sedlina.1097]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Loboling.5293 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:OWP (one wolf pack) is trash. If wetake a second to look into the skill:

• Does 1 extra attack very half a second. That mean in an spwan of 8 seconds does 16 extra attacks, for your team if traited is 8 extra attacks if they can keep up the pace (usually don't).
• Has a fixed damage independent from your damage. The only thing that actually can benefit from it is sharpened edges trait because any other effect has an internal cool down.
• the damage of this skill is really low: 186 (0,7) wich is lower than the sword auto.
• 60 secs CD which mess with any "on elite skill" rune.

Unless the skill actually clone your original attack (if you did a maul after one sec later produces the same damage or a portion of it, or if you apply conditions apply them again) taking this skill is almost a wasted slot.

Have you tried the skill? haha

On the build I was running (in pvp) it was hitting for 2k dmg. If properly coordinated that is probably a lot of damage from one skill. I liked to pop it with my axe4->5, but it works well for rapid fire with longbow too. Anyway, if you stack all your damage buffs you can practically 1 shot chieftan in hotm with this combo. (more like a million little hits) You kill him really fast, way faster than anyone can respond to normally. I didn't do much of this, only played around with soulbeast, since I found weaver to be more interesting to play around with first.

I'd rather they increase the share duration to full, rather than reduce cooldowns. But this is for sure a cool trait, since some of the stances are quite unique.

The people who say OWP is bad have not done the math or played it to it's potential, plain and simple. Although, I still think LotP should give full durations.

math8 second duration1/2 a second icdmax potential 16 hits for the rangermax potential 8 hits for 'others' due to 50 % duration ruleset (major grandmaster leader of the pack)you are losing the 1st potential tick in 99% of the situations because the 'stance' is not instant - it has an activation time and this means you have to start the attack animation of other skills before you even get the 1 proc of the elitethis brings us down to potentialranger 15 hitsothers 7 hitsthe icd means every attack that has a longer interval than 1/2 can not trigger it unless you have quickness running on you. Even the dagger mainhand 1 chain is not able to proc every potential hit of it by itself.realisticly speaking this means you are going to try and camp basic attack chains for 8 seconds to get an average of 75 % of the potential hits with most weapons (for 11-12 hits)or you continue to use weapon and utility skills - which ends up with an average of 50 % with longer activation/animation times and therefore reducing the potential hits down to 7-8This brings math to a realistic scenario in world pve on a non evading/blocking targetranger ~7-9 hitsothers ~3-4 hitswhile raiding you will get every strike if you stick to 8 seconds of 'not using any ability with a cast time of 1 or more than 1ranger ~15-16 hitsothers ~7-8 hitson non AI targets(players) you can hope to get an average ofranger ~4-8 hits (obviously more on less smarter individuals)others ~2-3 hits (may vary greatly depending on how the players can react to it, or if they can even react to it)

all assuming that YOU can just attack your target freely without the need to evade or heal yourself.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Sedlina.1097 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Loboling.5293 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:OWP (one wolf pack) is trash. If wetake a second to look into the skill:

• Does 1 extra attack very half a second. That mean in an spwan of 8 seconds does 16 extra attacks, for your team if traited is 8 extra attacks if they can keep up the pace (usually don't).
• Has a fixed damage independent from your damage. The only thing that actually can benefit from it is sharpened edges trait because any other effect has an internal cool down.
• the damage of this skill is really low: 186 (0,7) wich is lower than the sword auto.
• 60 secs CD which mess with any "on elite skill" rune.

Unless the skill actually clone your original attack (if you did a maul after one sec later produces the same damage or a portion of it, or if you apply conditions apply them again) taking this skill is almost a wasted slot.

Have you tried the skill? haha

On the build I was running (in pvp) it was hitting for 2k dmg. If properly coordinated that is probably a lot of damage from one skill. I liked to pop it with my axe4->5, but it works well for rapid fire with longbow too. Anyway, if you stack all your damage buffs you can practically 1 shot chieftan in hotm with this combo. (more like a million little hits) You kill him really fast, way faster than anyone can respond to normally. I didn't do much of this, only played around with soulbeast, since I found weaver to be more interesting to play around with first.

I'd rather they increase the share duration to full, rather than reduce cooldowns. But this is for sure a cool trait, since some of the stances are quite unique.

The people who say OWP is bad have not done the math or played it to it's potential, plain and simple. Although, I still think LotP should give full durations.

math8 second duration1/2 a second icdmax potential 16 hits for the rangermax potential 8 hits for 'others' due to 50 % duration ruleset (major grandmaster leader of the pack)you are losing the 1st potential tick in 99% of the situations because the 'stance' is not instant - it has an activation time and this means you have to start the attack animation of other skills before you even get the 1 proc of the elitethis brings us down to potentialranger 15 hitsothers 7 hitsthe icd means every attack that has a longer interval than 1/2 can not trigger it unless you have quickness running on you. Even the dagger mainhand 1 chain is not able to proc every potential hit of it by itself.realisticly speaking this means you are going to try and camp basic attack chains for 8 seconds to get an average of 75 % of the potential hits with most weapons (for 11-12 hits)or you continue to use weapon and utility skills - which ends up with an average of 50 % with longer activation/animation times and therefore reducing the potential hits down to 7-8This brings math to a realistic scenario in world pve on a non evading/blocking targetranger ~7-9 hitsothers ~3-4 hitswhile raiding you will get every strike if you stick to 8 seconds of 'not using any ability with a cast time of 1 or more than 1ranger ~15-16 hitsothers ~7-8 hitson non AI targets(players) you can hope to get an average ofranger ~4-8 hits (obviously more on less smarter individuals)others ~2-3 hits (may vary greatly depending on how the players can react to it, or if they can even react to it)

all assuming that

YOU

can just attack your target freely without the need to evade or heal yourself.

There is no reason to think you will lose the 1st tick, anyone with half a brain would use something that has a field duration like a trap/Bonfire first. Anyway, you have a half second after the cast time to make it happen and you'll have quickness. You cannot apply the same logic to the others in the group either because they don't have the skill aftercast to contend with and will always be unloading as much damage and as many attacks as possible at the point when you used OWP, otherwise you are just bad, not the skill.

Your math is not math at all, it's a bunch of meaningless assumptions. Do the actual calculations and get back to us.

[Sedlina.1097]

when people dismiss your statement by accusing you that you didn't factor elements like quickness injust to raise an eyebrow and see that you did - and you've listed both scenarios with and without quickness.

why is it always the people who ask for math who act like their head hurts when they have to read more than two sentences...

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Sedlina.1097 said:when people dismiss your statement by accusing you that you didn't factor elements like quickness injust to raise an eyebrow and see that you did - and you've listed both scenarios with and without quickness.

why is it always the people who ask for math who act like their head hurts when they have to read more than two sentences...

Why is it people refuse to rely on evidence rather than hyperbole, assumptions and then finally, ad-hominem? Although, I do agree now that this skill does not do enough damage or have enough power scaling, previously I had calculated it and made a mistake doing so, I just did it again and it's quite a bit lower than I first thought. I had forgotten that elite skills do not use weapon strength!

I'm sure I have not done this exactly right here too.

One Wolf Pack damage Calculation

Zerker Staff Weaver, Full raid buffs4018 power100% crit chanceDamage Multipliers; scholar 10%, GotL 10%, Frost Spirit 7.5%, Vulnerability 25%, Sigil of Force 5%, Sigil of Impact 10%, Crit damage 257%, Pyro training 10%Burning Rage 10%, Bolt to the Heart 20%, Tempest Defense 20%, Swift Revenge 7%, Elements of Rage 10%, Total = 1.11.11.0751.251.051.12.571.11.11.21.21.071.1= 9.9Raid Boss armor = 2600OWP damage = ((((1864018)0.7)*9.9)/2600) = 1992 damage per strike.

Ziper D/T Soulbeast, Full raid buffs100% crit chance3003 powerMultipliers; GotL 10%, Frost Spirit 7.5%, Vulnerability 25%, Crit damage 160%, Furious Strength 7%, Total = 1.11.0751.251.61.07 = 2.53055Raid Boss armor = 2600OWP damage = ((((1863003)0.7)*2.53)/2600) = 380.46 damage per strike.

Ok, lets make a sub-group of 4 weavers and a condi soulbeast to provide the buffs.Weaver damage = (4 8) 1992dmg = 63,744 damage.Soulbeast Damage = 16 * 380.46 = 6,087

Total Damage provided by One Wolf Pack in the absolute best case scenario is 69,831.42, over the cooldown that translates to 1163.85 damage per second.

To compare, with the same build on the Soulbeast, Entangle would deal 13896.56 damage or 231.60 damage per second which is over double that of un-traited OWP.

Keep in mind we are dropping Oppressive Superiority for LotP which would be another 10% condi duration and another 10% modifier, so I doubt it is actually worth it in the long run. OS would be contributing more than 1163 DPS to the 40k DPS soulbeast is capable of.

Conclusion: OWP is not worth using and it is especially not worth traiting for.

[Henry.5713]

Was wondering about a frontline build for WvW ever since they showed us Leader of the Pack. Not sure why they felt like this is the one trait that needed a restriction, even a harsh one like 50%, since the stances are good but still nothing too crazy when compared to what other support builds are capable of.

[Skuzz.6580]

well, this topic has got some attention. Not kind I was hoping for, but I have grown accustomed to that.Anyway.. Not sure if you guys are aware but Dolyak Stance is actually a Stun break + Immunity for 4 seconds (8 on self) on a group of 5 around you.Having done full bounty trains on all 5 maps last night, I have saved so many people by just popping this bad boy.

Moa Stance is just there to use before Dolyak (to preemptively give ppl stability) and give boons + additional duration on the Dolyak boons applied.

I always save OWP for when enemies are about to be broken for a nice DPS increase, using Sic'Em myself right before OWP for a nice burst of damage in the broken window.People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

[Lazze.9870]

@Aomine.5012 said:You should have played a Shout Guardian if you like Leader of Pack that much.Basically they do the same thing, group cleanse, group stability, group protection, etc, except Soulbeast need to waste a Grandmaster slot for it to work on party.

Guardian shouts don't give you additonal effects. Traited dolyak stance is better than a guardian's stand your ground untraited.But granted I have read you say this very thing more than once before, I guess it's not worth mentioning.

My opinion on the trait: Remove the reduced effect duration of allies, keep it in pvp with adjustments if necessary (I doubt it). This is Anet kneejerking at its best, and they are specially good at it with ranger. Handbrake on before we get to try it.

[Skuzz.6580]

Don't get me wrong, I am very in favor of making the Grandmaster better, it is probably a bit underwhelming all things considered, but it is still a playstyle I enjoy (being a primarily open world PvE player always surrounded by allies).Removing the duration restrictions will make it a lot better obviously, but I just like the route they went, making them personal by default and sharable when traited.It makes you choose between being more of a supporting player (Leader of the pack) a DPS-er (Oppressive Superiority) or more survivable with (Eternal Bond).Me being more of a supportive dps player is the reason I started this topic, since I like the trait because it enables me to be that, and specifically requires you to choose to have that supportive option rather than have it by default.

[anduriell.6280]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:There is no reason to think you will lose the 1st tick, anyone with half a brain would use something that has a field duration like a trap/Bonfire first. Anyway, you have a half second after the cast time to make it happen and you'll have quickness. You cannot apply the same logic to the others in the group either because they don't have the skill aftercast to contend with and will always be unloading as much damage and as many attacks as possible at the point when you used OWP, otherwise you are just bad, not the skill.

Your math is not math at all, it's a bunch of meaningless assumptions. Do the actual calculations and get back to us.Most may not like how i express my thoughts here still we can agree there is something very underwhelming with the soulbeast which affects the enjoyment of the game. As an example when you see how other classes like the holosmith take away big chunks with every attack from the mob's hp while your take an eternity to kill the same enemy (i won't get into wvw as the balance right now is worst than ever)

So now: is OWP better dps for pve where the boss stay still and you just autoattack (like the punching golems) with no need to evade than let's say entangle (which has been the last months bugged) or SotP? Yes sure. The other elites was chosen because of the utility they bring or because it was the lesser evil.

Is OWP good for any other scenarios? No it's not. First damage is low: with 240% crit damage and 2500 power you do most 2k damage per impact to most mobs. Tough enemies (around 3k) is much worse. And is single target as AoE skills like barrage, boonfire, call lightning or traps will only trigger this trait once by interval and only brings that for a 60 seconds cd skill.As such does not bring damage pressure or utility to be useful in wvw, pvp or some end level pve content where the boss is not is punchbag. Even some opeworld instances in PoF you get to play the ball in a pinball because you didn't bring the extra stab from SotP (unless you play safe\boring pewpew with the SB but then i would play core ranger as it's better equipped to play pewpew than soulbeast)

Entangle brings inmob + cleases \furySotP brings the much needed stability.

With this i'm not saying soulbeast is a complete waste which should be scrapped, just it is showing serious deficiencies easy to spot even from the beta and most of them easy to attune to make them fun and actually rewarding.

Now, and this is a quick though, what would have been if OWP would had this effects:

1. Everything it has now + The second strike grant 3 seconds of fury and 1 second of stability.

That little change would synergize with: shapened edges, remoseless and also bring more stability to an spec is supposed to play in melee. This one needs as much stability as possible. And it should not be that difficult as the attack is unblockable so the boon could be applied automatically 1 second later than trig_gered.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

@SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:As someone that roams WvW solo, this trait has ZERO use to me what so ever. Kinda sad. I thin k it should have made it so that we get a reduced cool down on the Stances, maybe with a 50% duration increase as well. It is a GM trait after all, it should feel it.

It doesn't reduce the cooldowns or provide any additional benefits which means you lose nothing by not taking it.

Go with Oppressive Superiority, that's what I use. +10% damage to targets with less health than you is great. And if you're condition, then it's +10% condition duration.

Yeah kinda disappointing, though a lot of GM traits across several classes are seriously lacking. GM traits should be build defining, giving different options for different builds but some are just so bland and boring :/

[Substance E.4852]

@Lazze.9870 said:

Guardian shouts don't give you additonal effects. Traited dolyak stance is better than a guardian's stand your ground untraited.But granted I have read you say this very thing more than once before, I guess it's not worth mentioning.

The immunity to soft cc is essentially redundant in proper teams with rolling resistance which is always going to be provided to the frontline.

The primary benefit of the skill is the stab. In that scenario the skills are the same functionally and the measure of which class to bring defaults to other support and damage in which gaurdian completely blows ranger out of the water.

Purging flames alone is significantly better than bear stance because it's both ground targeted instead of a pbaoe and doesn't require blowing your heal.

It also wrecks the enemy if you're specced as a burn guard which many are these days.

SB is more usefull in a zerg than base ranger or even druid, but it's never going to displace, or even be a good sub for, a guardian.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Skuzz.6580 said:People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

Can you show the math then please? I can only calculate it based upon the numbers given in the wiki.

[Skuzz.6580]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Skuzz.6580 said:People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

Can you show the math then please? I can only calculate it based upon the numbers given in the wiki.

Lets take a few average numbers:

• ~3400 power = 720 damage OWP (Tooltip damage, meaning on an average armored target)
• 100% crit chance and 250% crit damage
• Using SicÉm and having 10% damage from somewhere = +50% damage

Damage per hit = (720 x 2,5) x 1.5 = 2700 damage16 hits = 4320010 hits = 27000

And this is just with a 10% damage increase used, imagine having a lot more than that, as well as having more ferocity/power. The maximum damage can go well over the 50-60k mark, and that is just from yourself. Sharing this for half duration on 5 allies that are not prepared (a lot of wasted procs) kinda doubles that on average.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Skuzz.6580 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Skuzz.6580 said:People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

Can you show the math then please? I can only calculate it based upon the numbers given in the wiki.

Lets take a few average numbers:

• ~3400 power = 720 damage OWP (Tooltip damage, meaning on an average armored target)
• 100% crit chance and 250% crit damage
• Using SicÉm and having 10% damage from somewhere = +50% damage

Damage per hit = (720 x 2,5) x 1.5 = 2700 damage16 hits = 4320010 hits = 27000

And this is just with a 10% damage increase used, imagine having a lot more than that, as well as having more ferocity/power. The maximum damage can go well over the 50-60k mark, and that is just from yourself. Sharing this for half duration on 5 allies that are not prepared (a lot of wasted procs) kinda doubles that on average.

Thanks for that, although I did actually mean the numbers for calculating the damage dealt, not the tooltip value. I'd just like to be able to calculate the actual potential of the skill. FYI, damage multipliers are combined multiplicatively, not by addition. So Sic Em + Oppressive Superiority would give +54% damage, not +50%.

[Skuzz.6580]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Skuzz.6580 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Skuzz.6580 said:People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

Can you show the math then please? I can only calculate it based upon the numbers given in the wiki.

Lets take a few average numbers:

• ~3400 power = 720 damage OWP (Tooltip damage, meaning on an average armored target)
• 100% crit chance and 250% crit damage
• Using SicÉm and having 10% damage from somewhere = +50% damage

Damage per hit = (720 x 2,5) x 1.5 = 2700 damage16 hits = 4320010 hits = 27000

And this is just with a 10% damage increase used, imagine having a lot more than that, as well as having more ferocity/power. The maximum damage can go well over the 50-60k mark, and that is just from yourself. Sharing this for half duration on 5 allies that are not prepared (a lot of wasted procs) kinda doubles that on average.

Thanks for that, although I did actually mean the numbers for calculating the damage dealt, not the tooltip value. I'd just like to be able to calculate the actual potential of the skill. FYI, damage multipliers are combined multiplicatively, not by addition. So Sic Em + Oppressive Superiority would give +54% damage, not +50%.

Sry missed that, Multiplicative indeed.

[Henry.5713]

@Skuzz.6580 said:well, this topic has got some attention. Not kind I was hoping for, but I have grown accustomed to that.Anyway.. Not sure if you guys are aware but Dolyak Stance is actually a Stun break + Immunity for 4 seconds (8 on self) on a group of 5 around you.Having done full bounty trains on all 5 maps last night, I have saved so many people by just popping this bad boy.

Moa Stance is just there to use before Dolyak (to preemptively give ppl stability) and give boons + additional duration on the Dolyak boons applied.

I always save OWP for when enemies are about to be broken for a nice DPS increase, using Sic'Em myself right before OWP for a nice burst of damage in the broken window.People have got their math all wrong.. just saying.. the damage displayed on the tooltip actually accounts for a default enemy's armor value. So if a tooltip says it deals 830 dmg per hit (which OWP does) it does that amount of damage, pure and simple. I've seen my own OWP damage go to the 20k+ range, Entangle doesn't even do 70% of that dmg.. and that is not accounting the sharing you can do with Leader of the Pack

I for one am fully aware of what these skills do. And don't get me wrong, I like the trait. It adds much needed support the any ranger not willing to go for a druid build.

There is simply the fact that we are talking about a grandmaster trait here that doesn't do anything but allow you to share supportive skills with your allies. With an added limition of only affecting allies for half if it.Let's talk about the stances. They might not be the unique mechanic of the class unlike virtues or shatters are for guardian and mesmer in comparison but they are an important utility type unique to the elite as far as rangers are concerned. They already have the downside to take up a utility slot unlike the virtues and shatters while those still have their respective traits which do not only allow them to affect allies but also buff the effect in general or reduce cooldowns.

The point that I am trying to make is that I am wondering about what part of the stances is considered too powerful when given to allies after you have used a grandmaster trait slot and also went with a full utility bar filled with stances only. This is the one new thing in PoF where they went all conservative and careful amongst everything else that is flashy and as overpowered as possible to make people to get people all excitedIn any case, I'd like to see a removal of that 50% limitation as well as a new T2 trait that would allow you to buff the stance durations or the effects in which you can then also share with allies. To allow for a stance heavy support build capable of keeping up with other good supports while being kind of unique.

[Skuzz.6580]

I think we can all agree that the duration limitation is unnecessary, I just don't think they should be sharable by default.I think being able to share your stances should be an option you have to go for choosing a GM trait.I bet there are a lot of ideas around about what to do with the trait and/or some stance changes.

It does come down to:

• The Stancesharing GM trait should not be too strong, because this renders the stances underwhelming without it.
• Base stances should not be made to powerful for solo use, because this renders them to good with the GM trait.
• A middle ground can work just fine. ,making a few adjustments on the base stances so they feel worth taking without the GM, and making the GM just a bit more rewarding to take (either by removing the duration decrease, or perhaps just let all Stances do something extra, just like Light on your Feet changes all Shortbow skills for instance.)

Leader of the Pack could be:

• Apply your stance effects to nearby allies, they gain additional effects
• Vulture Stance now applies both effects every hit regardless of health threshold
• Moa Stance adds Quickness while active
• Griffon Stance (30sec cooldown default) now removes a condition on successful evade
• Dolyak Stance adds Regeneration
• Bear Stance adds Resistance
• One Wolf Pack now adds a stack of bleeding per hit (8 sec)

Just some ideas. This might be a bit too much on 1 grand master, perhaps then the half duration can still be in place, or they could make minor adjustments/buffs to the base stances like I said earlier and just give full duration..

[anduriell.6280]

@Skuzz.6580 said:I think we can all agree that the duration limitation is unnecessary, I just don't think they should be sharable by default.I think being able to share your stances should be an option you have to go for choosing a GM trait.I bet there are a lot of ideas around about what to do with the trait and/or some stance changes.

It does come down to:

• The Stancesharing GM trait should not be too strong, because this renders the stances underwhelming without it.
• Base stances should not be made to powerful for solo use, because this renders them to good with the GM trait.
• A middle ground can work just fine. ,making a few adjustments on the base stances so they feel worth taking without the GM, and making the GM just a bit more rewarding to take (either by removing the duration decrease, or perhaps just let all Stances do something extra, just like Light on your Feet changes all Shortbow skills for instance.)

Leader of the Pack could be:

• Apply your stance effects to nearby allies, they gain additional effects
• Vulture Stance now applies both effects every hit regardless of health threshold
• Moa Stance adds Quickness while active
• Griffon Stance (30sec cooldown default) now removes a condition on successful evade
• Dolyak Stance adds Regeneration
• Bear Stance adds Resistance
• One Wolf Pack now adds a stack of bleeding per hit (8 sec)

Just some ideas. This might be a bit too much on 1 grand master, perhaps then the half duration can still be in place, or they could make minor adjustments/buffs to the base stances like I said earlier and just give full duration..

I like those ideas a lot, although i think LoP could simply work like now: share stance effects to up to 5 targets, full duration.You improvements to stances i would apply directly to the base stance, now the problem we have with those is there no real use/purpose to those.

[Skuzz.6580]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Skuzz.6580 said:I think we can all agree that the duration limitation is unnecessary, I just don't think they should be sharable by default.I think being able to share your stances should be an option you have to go for choosing a GM trait.I bet there are a lot of ideas around about what to do with the trait and/or some stance changes.

It does come down to:

• The Stancesharing GM trait should not be too strong, because this renders the stances underwhelming without it.
• Base stances should not be made to powerful for solo use, because this renders them to good with the GM trait.
• A middle ground can work just fine. ,making a few adjustments on the base stances so they feel worth taking without the GM, and making the GM just a bit more rewarding to take (either by removing the duration decrease, or perhaps just let all Stances do something extra, just like Light on your Feet changes all Shortbow skills for instance.)

Leader of the Pack could be:

• Apply your stance effects to nearby allies, they gain additional effects
• Vulture Stance now applies both effects every hit regardless of health threshold
• Moa Stance adds Quickness while active
• Griffon Stance (30sec cooldown default) now removes a condition on successful evade
• Dolyak Stance adds Regeneration
• Bear Stance adds Resistance
• One Wolf Pack now adds a stack of bleeding per hit (8 sec)

Just some ideas. This might be a bit too much on 1 grand master, perhaps then the half duration can still be in place, or they could make minor adjustments/buffs to the base stances like I said earlier and just give full duration..

I like those ideas a lot, although i think LoP could simply work like now: share stance effects to up to 5 targets, full duration.You improvements to stances i would apply directly to the base stance, now the problem we have with those is there no real use/purpose to those.

You are probably right indeed, they might be better off as base inclusions to make them more usable for non-LoP users.For instance, Vulture stance would probably take over a spot of 1 of the condi traps for condi dps, And One Wolf Pack would promote the Hybrid playstyle more as well (which is honestly what Soulbeast is designed for at its core if you look at the weapon/traits), just to name a few.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

They could even make LotP share to 10 targets with the half duration, that would be pretty cool and I wouldn't mind the half duration then. You could have one condi soulbeast for stances in a raid and one condi druid for GotL, and it would make for a great addition for WvW too.