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@norbes.3620 said:

@"Magek.4718" said:

Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you
saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.
My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Skyrim got an Orc like that..Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Magek.4718" said:

Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you
saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.
My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Skyrim got an Orc like that..Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

Aren’t, like, half of the races in Elder Scrolls just elves in varying degrees of degeneracy..? :wink

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@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Magek.4718" said:

Well, an orc that doesn't exercise wouldn't be very strong. And I'm sure Orcs can be short too. But maybe I should have said "gentle"? I mean, when was the last time you
saw an Orc sit down to read a book? Heck, when's the last time you saw an Orc wearing glasses? I've never seen it.
My point is, in every fantasy setting, every member of each fantastical race seems to be the same character/ collectively have the same personality as if the race itself was the character. It's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Skyrim got an Orc like that..Skyrim orcs arent actually "orcs" in the racial sense, they are just grungy elves.

Aren’t, like, half of the races in Elder Scrolls just elves in varying degrees of degeneracy..? :wink

Orcs are in fact elves in Elder Scrolls, yes.

Basically, anything that ends in "mer" is an elf.

Orcs are also known as Orismer

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@norbes.3620 said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

@"Magek.4718" said:Orcs are in fact elves in Elder Scrolls, yes.

Basically, anything that ends in "mer" is an elf.

Orcs are also known as Orismer

And that includes the Dwemer, also known as dwarves. Dwarves are elves in the elder scrolls series and that's a hilarious thing considering traditional racial tensions between the two races. But there is a definite distinction between orcs and elves considering the orcslayer weapons that are called 'orcslayer' and only affect orcs, not elves as a whole.

@"ROMANG.1903" said:I've always imagined the skritt as a playable race but you would control 3 grouped individuals, to fit with their "smarter in numbers" lore. Of course they would count as one for all the game's mechanics, it would be merely cosmetic.

I know we're in the lore section of a Guild Wars 2 forum, but Allods online literally has a small race (the gibberlings) where you play as 3 while mechanically playing as one character. I don't know if I tried it, since I tried the game for like 10 minutes years ago, but I know it's there.

Unless that' where you got the idea from in which case ignore me.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

This.

The workload already is very high to make armors work on 5 different races, I doubt it is a realistic assumption that arenanet will be willing to increase this even further.

Imagine:
  • having to rework all existing armors, weapons, backpieces to work with a new race. Even if it was similar in size as norn (in case of big tengu) or human/sylvari, the work would not be insignificant
  • creating entire new racial sets (otherwise this race is just 2nd class)
  • having to design armors around then 6 races
  • people suddenly complaining why race X was added and not race Y
  • making the story work for a new race not only from a lore point but voice over
  • designing a new capital city for the new race

Granted some of those issues could be left to a minimum accepting that a new race just isn't as huge as the established ones, but even then the workload would be huge.

The lore argument is mostly moot and tiny compared to the problem of realizing this dream.

The tengu have a city which was almost done, they were intended for HoT but then pushed back to prevent EVERY SINGLE TENGU from being a revenant. They got new models unique to them with new animations again unique to them, they have a dedicated voice actor. Their posture is different but the rig looks similar to the charr just slimmer so using the same stuff they use on the charr for tengu is a fair assumption. The real reason we have seen no and probably will never see effort on the part of A-net is even if they wanted to do it and do want to do it, The community really honestly in bulk probably wouldn't care. "I don't want them to invest resources in this, because I want it in maps or raids." Maps have been shitty since HoT; And the Raids are meant for 10% of the player base at best. So to be completely honest a new race is like mounts, a huge expansion seller accessible to every SINGLE PLAYER.

As for the lore at this point who gives a damn, makes no sense as to where the hell rev players came from during the base game as rytlock was the FIRST AND ONLY rev in the storyline up until he was pulled to the black citadel. The complete HoT story was jumbled and the lore is iffy at best, and the PoF lore is just as like "Yes, this shit happened off screen and your expected to accept it." The point is the Lore is not justifable excuse for it as tengu are in the pact, and hell they joined our guild halls AND TAUGHT US SCRIBEING. Scribeing is described as a Tengu practice they gave to use for our guild halls which they joined; So they are already involved.

With level 80 boosters being accesible to be purchased and them handing them out every single expansion why not make it that you have to have one level 80 on the account (Use the booster.) And then you get to make a tengu, Who comes level 80 with full exotic gear in a little scenario explaining why you are involved and where you interject into the story (For example maybe you joined the pact against Zaihtan and the commander at that point and time in your version of the story dies at some point, leaving you in charge.) Which then spits you out with half the personal story done after a small little scenario showcasing the death of the "Commander" whom you replace, they don't even really need to give that commander that much screentime or a name. Just the commander. And that would be one of your major plot choices, the commander would appear in the mordremoth fight rather than tybalt and friends. And you would see that moment in the domain of the lost durring that whole thing; It would not be hard to do and any other races to be added could follow the same formula. (Especially considering they are almost ALL in the pact by this point. Excluding the new ogres we met in PoF)

Its not a matter of when or if they will do it, it comes down to us as a community pestering them and badgering them like people did about mounts. Otherwise they will just assume no one wants it which for a community as .... "colorful" as this one perhaps the only thing anyone cares about is partical effects and their human female "Bikini" armor to really give credence to the notion of a new race. Frankly Im bored and was never interested in the current races outside of the norn (Whom they botched.) The tengu were the ones I wanted... So Imma vote with my wallet. Anyone else who wants new races should vote as well, less there is a new race dont buy the expansion simple as that.. eventually they will put it in to see if it will bring people in and if it does you better damn well believe they will continue to do it lol.

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@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I actually don't see that one very often at all, not in this corner of the forums. Around here it's almost always 'a quaggan would be too difficult/time-consuming to make greatsword animations for,' or 'an ogre's horns would clip as bad as a charr's with all the different helmets they'd have to design, and they can't get away with that on a feature they'll sell an expansion on,' or 'wouldn't implementing tengu break the personal story for all kinds of reasons?,' or 'for the love of Dwayna, spare us from centaur swimming animations and screenhogging in jumping puzzles.' Lore forum or not, the pragmatic objections get the most traction.

Granted, there's also a fair deal of 'kodan bore me personally so it'd be [insert hyperbole here] of the devs to add them' and 'the largos are a mash-up of tropes I can't stand, so I'm not in favour of the devs spending time on them,' but even there, it's not claims that it'd be lore-breaking to play them.

This.

The workload already is very high to make armors work on 5 different races, I doubt it is a realistic assumption that arenanet will be willing to increase this even further.

Imagine:
  • having to rework all existing armors, weapons, backpieces to work with a new race. Even if it was similar in size as norn (in case of big tengu) or human/sylvari, the work would not be insignificant
  • creating entire new racial sets (otherwise this race is just 2nd class)
  • having to design armors around then 6 races
  • people suddenly complaining why race X was added and not race Y
  • making the story work for a new race not only from a lore point but voice over
  • designing a new capital city for the new race

Granted some of those issues could be left to a minimum accepting that a new race just isn't as huge as the established ones, but even then the workload would be huge.

The lore argument is mostly moot and tiny compared to the problem of realizing this dream.

The tengu have a city which was almost done, they were intended for HoT but then pushed back to prevent EVERY SINGLE TENGU from being a revenant. They got new models unique to them with new animations again unique to them, they have a dedicated voice actor. Their posture is different but the rig looks similar to the charr just slimmer so using the same stuff they use on the charr for tengu is a fair assumption. The real reason we have seen no and probably will never see effort on the part of A-net is even if they wanted to do it and do want to do it, The community really honestly in bulk probably wouldn't care. "I don't want them to invest resources in this, because I want it in maps or raids." Maps have been kitten since HoT; And the Raids are meant for 10% of the player base at best. So to be completely honest a new race is like mounts, a huge expansion seller accessible to every SINGLE PLAYER.

Source? I've have never heard of this. Not saying this is not true, simply it goes against anything I have ever heard from any official side. The argument that new armors take time is always officially backed up by the fact that armors need to get customized to 5 races.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

As for the lore at this point who gives a kitten, makes no sense as to where the hell rev players came from during the base game as rytlock was the FIRST AND ONLY rev in the storyline up until he was pulled to the black citadel. The complete HoT story was jumbled and the lore is iffy at best, and the PoF lore is just as like "Yes, this kitten happened off screen and your expected to accept it." The point is the Lore is not justifable excuse for it as tengu are in the pact, and hell they joined our guild halls AND TAUGHT US SCRIBEING. Scribeing is described as a Tengu practice they gave to use for our guild halls which they joined; So they are already involved.

Your personal subjective opinion does not have to be reflected in the majorities opinion. You might not care about lore, others do. You might not have enjoyed the story unfold, others have. My point was, lore will not have been a deciding factor for not adding a new race since workload trumps lore on this issue.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

With level 80 boosters being accesible to be purchased and them handing them out every single expansion why not make it that you have to have one level 80 on the account (Use the booster.) And then you get to make a tengu, Who comes level 80 with full exotic gear in a little scenario explaining why you are involved and where you interject into the story (For example maybe you joined the pact against Zaihtan and the commander at that point and time in your version of the story dies at some point, leaving you in charge.) Which then spits you out with half the personal story done after a small little scenario showcasing the death of the "Commander" whom you replace, they don't even really need to give that commander that much screentime or a name. Just the commander. And that would be one of your major plot choices, the commander would appear in the mordremoth fight rather than tybalt and friends. And you would see that moment in the domain of the lost durring that whole thing; It would not be hard to do and any other races to be added could follow the same formula. (Especially considering they are almost ALL in the pact by this point. Excluding the new ogres we met in PoF)

This "solution" has so many holes in it, where to start:

  • making level 80 boosters required to create a special character on a select race
  • what about additional Tengu characters? People have more than 5 character slots and some people like to have multiple of 1 class or race
  • the last time Arenanet fumbled in the original vanilla story code and tried to reshape or move around things, it did not end well
  • removing a huge part of the probably best part of a races story (levels 1-30) might not be a big issue to veteran players, it certainly would be to new players which would automatically gravitate more to a new race with a new expansion

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

Its not a matter of when or if they will do it, it comes down to us as a community pestering them and badgering them like people did about mounts. Otherwise they will just assume no one wants it which for a community as .... "colorful" as this one perhaps the only thing anyone cares about is partical effects and their human female "Bikini" armor to really give credence to the notion of a new race. Frankly Im bored and was never interested in the current races outside of the norn (Whom they botched.) The tengu were the ones I wanted... So Imma vote with my wallet. Anyone else who wants new races should vote as well, less there is a new race dont buy the expansion simple as that.. eventually they will put it in to see if it will bring people in and if it does you better kitten well believe they will continue to do it lol.

As long as the work to reward ratio is beneficial, it remains a possibility. Unless shown proof otherwise, I'm not seeing it at the moment.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@norbes.3620 said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

It's almost a crime to not mention Morgoth/Melkor, the daddy of all dark lord characters, at this point.That pansy, Sauron, pales in comparison to his master.

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@Yannir.4132 said:

@"norbes.3620" said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.

It's almost a crime to not mention Morgoth/Melkor, the daddy of all dark lord characters, at this point.That kitten, Sauron, pales in comparison to his master.

never heard of him, starting to invatigate this matter for a while thanks ;D

im pretty sure it was said somewhere that tengu were considered as a new race but i cant find it.id prefere that the "lesser races" from the orders personal stories will NEVER be considered playable. None of em!

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@norbes.3620 said:

im pretty sure it was said somewhere that tengu were considered as a new race but i cant find it.

In the hardcopy book that came with the Collector's Edition of the base game, it's mentioned that there was a time when the game was meant to launch with six races, and that the Dominion of Wind had had some work put into it before the idea was scrapped. As far as I'm aware, though, there's been no point where the devs have suggested they've revived the idea. The company's always been clear: they won't rule new races out altogether, but it's very, very unlikely to happen.

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@Magek.4718 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

Eh, Tengu are honestly pretty boring.

I want Quaggan personally (If it wasn't obvious)

I mean I'd want Skritt, but I'm being realistic in that Tengu are the most likely to get added since they were going to be in originally, have an entire unused section of the map to themselves and would be easier to animate and such, some of the work is already there.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Tengu were going to be in the base game originally but were cut, if any race gets added it will be them.

Eh, Tengu are honestly pretty boring.

I want Quaggan personally (If it wasn't obvious)

I mean I'd want Skritt, but I'm being realistic in that Tengu are the most likely to get added since they were going to be in originally, have an entire unused section of the map to themselves and would be easier to animate and such, some of the work is already there.

Oh, I agree with you, I just wouldn't be too stoked about it.

I mean, it'd be something new and interesting at the very least. Just as long as it wasn't a one and done kind of deal.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:well, if you look at the germanic roots of elves and dwarfes, they actually ARE related. Even the same.

Later came the 'elves are evil undead spirits in the wood'. And then came Tolkien.

In Nordic mythology, dwarves and "dark elves" are suspected to have been the same thing, as the names are used to refer to beings with very similar attributes; meanwhile "light elves" (which the inspiration for typical depiction of modern elves, blood elves, or whatever you wish to call them - the ones which hang out in white cities, not in trees - originates) were something else, and were typically treated as the third branch of gods (alongside the aesir and the vanir).

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@norbes.3620 said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien
invent
Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@norbes.3620 said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien
invent
Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

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@Oglaf.1074 said:Stereotypes exists because they can be reinforces by reality. That is to say, they are true. Nobody just made them up. Exaggerated them for comedic effect, sure, but they’re clearly originating from real life observation.

Simple as that.

That being said, there will always be outsiders. Drizzt from DnD has fallen out of favour (anyone but me even know what I’m talking about? lol) but remains an awesome character because of how he breaks the mold.

Not all sterotypes are based on reality though. Blondes are not objectively less intelligent than other hair colors as an example. Some stereotypes are simply indications of exaggerated ignorance.

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@"Vayne.8563" said:Not all sterotypes are based on reality though. Blondes are not objectively less intelligent than other hair colors as an example. Some stereotypes are simply indications of exaggerated ignorance.Odd example to bring up, but several theories exist about why blonde women are special.The "stupid" stereotype may or may not originate in the person of Rosalie Duthé, who was a courtesan to the king of France. She was not particularly popular with parts of the nobility and often took long pauses before speaking. This may have been stupidity, or she was a socially awkward courtesan. In any case, blonde women have been historically seen as an ideal of beauty. So many successes they may have achieved out of their own merit were attributed to their supposed attractiveness, while their failings were mocked.I have my own idea about the aspect of stupidity. Due to their general advantage in the field of marriage, blonde women likely entered marriage at a younger age than their peers. As partners to highly successful or influential men, they were often thrust into prominent places of society with less preparation than other women. This may have lead to these women being seen as "naive" due to their younger age, which likely got twisted into "stupid" by their competitors.

In the world of Tyria, I guess there are different stereotypes, ranging from firmly grounded in reality, like (from a human's perspective) "charr are strong and tough!" to general observations "Asura are really intelligent!" to exaggerated "All Skritt are thieves!"All in all, stereotypes exist, because generalizations can be helpful for survival. To use a DnD examle, one of my dungeon runs had our party entering a cursed treasury. A good number of treasure chests were actually mimics, so after the first two mimic encounters we left all the other treasure chests alone. This may have caused us to miss out on some gold, but at least we managed to get the item we were sent to retrieve and managed to not lose a pary member to container shaped monsters.In Tyria humans were well advised to keep their distance from any charr in and around Ascalon. Of course humans stereotyped charr as blood thirsty killing machines. Well, as time progresses the old stereotype may become less and less relevant, but humans entering Ascalon could expect charr aggression from 1090 A.E. to 1324/1325 A.E. .

As for new races, Tengu are the most likely candidate, but I have no idea how that would be integrated into the story. There would likely have to be a separate Tengu campaign, which later merges into the main narrative thread, but I fear we are way past that point with the famous commander.Which is not to say that it's impossible, as there were Tengu who joined forces with the pact, such as Izu Steelshrike, but they were few in number and a release of the Tengu race would cause a sudden explosion of tengu players everywhere.Not to mention their home and starting area will likely remain closed for all the other races until some event in the world narrative causes them to cautously open up to adventurers.This means, if we are to introduce Tengu as a playable race, we have to do it in a way that doesn't exclude the rest of the playerbase.Here's how it could be done: A Tengu themed expansion to the game launches. This opens up the Domain of the Winds to all players who own the appropriate expansion pack. The expansion pack unlocks the tengu as a playable race, whith their own campaign that starts, as one would expect in 1325 A.E. with an intrigue between the noble houses. One of the houses is in favour of opening up diplomatic relations with the other races, two are cautous, a fourth is firmly against it. Since no conclusion can be reached in the first to personal story episodes, your character is sent as a scout to see if the outsiders want to murder all tengu the moment they open their gates. From that point onwards, continue story as normal.Eventually, the Tengu are in the position where they need outside help. Maybe it's Steve Bubbles, a civil war, mabe their magic went haywire, maybe it's something else entirely. It forces the Domain to recall their scouts and uncharacteristically ask for help.And who would be better suited to deal with a colossal world ending threat that the Commander™, who alongside Dragon's Watch and the Pact (Remember how close the Domain is to Lion's Arch?) Goes in to save the day.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@"norbes.3620" said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien
invent
Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

That's....not what I'm coming up with, particularly in regards to Orcs specifically. That google search may have been too quick. And, frankly there's a whole lot else wrong with the above statement, especially the use of "cribbed". Everybody that writes or creates something is influenced by those that came before, everyone, and Tolkien absolutely did use various Germanic and Celtic languages and cultural stories when creating the world of Middle-earth. He also used heavy Christian influences, which aren't going to be found in a this specific Germanic (pagan) legend you haven't cited.

(the creation of Gandalf did include some influence from Odin, as some legends spoke of the Norse god disguised as an old man wandering throughout the human lands, but that aspect is about all that Gandalf gets from Odin)

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Color me impressed but this is what Wikipedia had to say on the matter:

"While the overall concept of orcs draws on a variety of pre-existing mythology, the main conception of the creatures stems from the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, in particular The Lord of the Rings. In Tolkien's works, orcs are a brutish, aggressive, repulsive and generally malevolent species, existing in stark contrast with the benevolent Elvish race and generally serving an evil power. Tolkien's concept of orcs has subsequently been adapted and imported into other works of fantasy fiction as well as role-playing and strategy games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, and Warcraft), broadening the recognition of the creatures in popular culture.

Earlier references to creatures etymologically or conceptually similar to orcs can be found in Anglo-Saxon sources; including Beowulf and 16th-century Italian folk tales, in particular those of Giambattista Basile."

I could have sworn Orcs were an actual mythological creature like Goblins were and dated back just as far with similar origins. I feel betrayed.

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@"Magek.4718" said:Color me impressed but this is what Wikipedia had to say on the matter:

"While the overall concept of orcs draws on a variety of pre-existing mythology, the main conception of the creatures stems from the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, in particular The Lord of the Rings. In Tolkien's works, orcs are a brutish, aggressive, repulsive and generally malevolent species, existing in stark contrast with the benevolent Elvish race and generally serving an evil power. Tolkien's concept of orcs has subsequently been adapted and imported into other works of fantasy fiction as well as role-playing and strategy games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, and Warcraft), broadening the recognition of the creatures in popular culture.

Earlier references to creatures etymologically or conceptually similar to orcs can be found in Anglo-Saxon sources; including Beowulf and 16th-century Italian folk tales, in particular those of Giambattista Basile."

I could have sworn Orcs were an actual mythological creature like Goblins were and dated back just as far with similar origins. I feel betrayed.

Like all things, they have influences from older sources, but overall 'Orcs' are something created by Tolkien first.

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