So about new races...

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"norbes.3620" said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien

invent

Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

That's....not what I'm coming up with, particularly in regards to Orcs

specifically

. That google search may have been too quick. And, frankly there's a whole lot else wrong with the above statement, especially the use of "cribbed". Everybody that writes or creates something is influenced by those that came before,

everyone

, and Tolkien absolutely did use various Germanic

and

Celtic languages and cultural stories when creating the world of Middle-earth. He also used heavy Christian influences, which aren't going to be found in a this specific Germanic (

pagan

) legend you haven't cited.

(the creation of Gandalf did include some influence from Odin, as some legends spoke of the Norse god disguised as an old man wandering throughout the human lands, but that aspect is about all that Gandalf gets from Odin)

No need to get so defensive, cribbed is a correct word for what I was communicating. A lot of elements of his stories do in fact borrow from Norse stories, which is exactly what cribbed from means. The rings of power, dwarves, elves, even the name middle earth can be said to come from the Norse Midgard. You also left out the fact that Gandalf isn't in fact human but is basically a godlike being in setting. The robe and wizard hat look is from Odin. Tolkien being a Christian would no doubt have an affect on interpretation of as you call it "pagan" works. Doesn't make it not an interpretation, look up "Der Ring des Nibelungen" it's where the concept of the one ring is from. Which is itself an interpretation of the Nibelungenlied.

[Magek.4718]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"Magek.4718" said:Color me impressed but this is what Wikipedia had to say on the matter:

"While the overall concept of orcs draws on a variety of pre-existing mythology, the main conception of the creatures stems from the fantasy writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, in particular The Lord of the Rings. In Tolkien's works, orcs are a brutish, aggressive, repulsive and generally malevolent species, existing in stark contrast with the benevolent Elvish race and generally serving an evil power. Tolkien's concept of orcs has subsequently been adapted and imported into other works of fantasy fiction as well as role-playing and strategy games (such as Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, and Warcraft), broadening the recognition of the creatures in popular culture.

Earlier references to creatures etymologically or conceptually similar to orcs can be found in Anglo-Saxon sources; including Beowulf and 16th-century Italian folk tales, in particular those of Giambattista Basile."

I could have sworn Orcs were an actual mythological creature like Goblins were and dated back just as far with similar origins. I feel betrayed.

Like all things, they have influences from older sources, but overall 'Orcs' are something created by Tolkien first.

Which kinda makes you realize, the folks who came up with those "older sources" are kind of the most creative people in history.

That is, if they didn't actually believe them.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"norbes.3620" said:Well Skyrim is not the only Franchise were Orcs and Elves are related. and most often the orcs are the degenerated Version.. as sad as it is.

You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien

invent

Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

According to a quick Google search, no, they date back much farther. The entire lord of the rings story is cribbed from Germanic legends too. Mostly one in specific but the name us eluding me at the moment. Tolkien didn't really invent anything. Even Gandalf is based on the Norse god Odin.

That's....not what I'm coming up with, particularly in regards to Orcs

specifically

. That google search may have been too quick. And, frankly there's a whole lot else wrong with the above statement, especially the use of "cribbed". Everybody that writes or creates something is influenced by those that came before,

everyone

, and Tolkien absolutely did use various Germanic

and

Celtic languages and cultural stories when creating the world of Middle-earth. He also used heavy Christian influences, which aren't going to be found in a this specific Germanic (

pagan

) legend you haven't cited.

(the creation of Gandalf did include some influence from Odin, as some legends spoke of the Norse god disguised as an old man wandering throughout the human lands, but that aspect is about all that Gandalf gets from Odin)

No need to get so defensive, cribbed is a correct word for what I was communicating. A lot of elements of his stories do in fact borrow from Norse stories, which is exactly what cribbed from means. The rings of power, dwarves, elves, even the name middle earth can be said to come from the Norse Midgard. You also left out the fact that Gandalf isn't in fact human but is basically a godlike being in setting. The robe and wizard hat look is from Odin. Tolkien being a Christian would no doubt have an affect on interpretation of as you call it "pagan" works. Doesn't make it not an interpretation, look up "Der Ring des Nibelungen" it's where the concept of the one ring is from. Which is itself an interpretation of the Nibelungenlied.

Modern definition of 'cribbed' is synonymous with 'plagiarism' and 'theft', so I think I'm justified in thinking its not an appropriate word to describe Tolkien. No, I didn't mention Gandalf's true nature as I didn't think it was relevant at that point. He is a Maia (plural Maiar, and the same type of being that Sauron was) part of a larger race of spirits collectively known as the Ainur, whom were in turn created from a fictional version of the Judaeo/Christian God Tolkien believed in. The more powerful of the Ainur, the Valar, are understandably comparable the polytheistic pantheons, but the Maiar a great deal less so. So I didn't see the need to further compare Gandalf to Odin in that manner as it didn't quite fit.As to the Ring being from another work, well I'll certainly look it up later, but not tonight, I've a nine hour shift tomorrow. But I will say this; Tolkien didn't originally intend for The Hobbit to be a part of this world he was crafting, and even when the story was made so, the Ring was originally just a magic ring. The original versions of the Hobbit have Bilbo winning the ring from Gollum, and Gollum just let him have it without a fight (the beginning of The Fellowship makes a point of explaining that this was a deception on Bilbo's part). It was only later when Tolkien was planning a saga that would become LotR that he looked back at this simple magic ring and thought he could do something with this.And yeah, Middle-Earth comes from Midgard, anyone whose ever heard both words can make the connection. I never said that Tolkien wasn't influenced by old world Germanic/Norse culture, I'm just saying it wasn't just Norse culture and that he didn't copy it directly.

[castlemanic.3198]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@castlemanic.3198 said:You can thank Tolkein for that, since the orcs in middle earth were captured elves that were mutated. Apparently you can also blame him for giant spiders in every fantasy world too.Didn't Tolkien

invent

Orcs, though? Arern't they, well, his?

Yes, maybe that was an odd way of phrasing it, but it was specifically about the idea of orcs being degenerated elves in a lot of fantasies. Tolkein came up with the concept and understandably, when orcs were placed in many fantasy worlds after the fact, understandably the concept of orcs being degenerated elves transferred in at least some of those. That was my overall point but you're right, I didn't communicate that fact clearly.

[Artyport.2084]

just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

[Magek.4718]

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

[Artyport.2084]

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

[Magek.4718]

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

[Artyport.2084]

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

I hope so too but I doubt it.Also Quaggan are a no for me. They are a comic relief race.

[Magek.4718]

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

I hope so too but I doubt it.Also Quaggan are a no for me. They are a comic relief race.

Alright, let me tell you something, son.

The Quaggan are everything that is good with the world. They are the hope of the universe. They are the light in the darkness. They are the blanket for all kittens that cry out in fear.

They are ally to good, nightmare to you.

[Artyport.2084]

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

I hope so too but I doubt it.Also Quaggan are a no for me. They are a comic relief race.

Alright, let me tell you something, son.

The Quaggan are everything that is good with the world. They are the hope of the universe. They are the light in the darkness. They are the blanket for all kittens that cry out in fear.

They are ally to good, nightmare to you.

They also barely have arms. Yass kill them with that great sword. Somehow?

[Magek.4718]

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

I hope so too but I doubt it.Also Quaggan are a no for me. They are a comic relief race.

Alright, let me tell you something, son.

The Quaggan are everything that is good with the world. They are the hope of the universe. They are the light in the darkness. They are the blanket for all kittens that cry out in fear.

They are ally to good, nightmare to you.

They also barely have arms. Yass kill them with that great sword. Somehow?

Doesn't stop the Asura from coming at you with toothpick greatswords.

[Artyport.2084]

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Artyport.2084 said:just upgrade combat tonics to be slotted in and usable for mounts.Like how elder scrolls does with their transformations.

Boom

That's super lame though.

No customization, no identity, no ownership.

You'd be just a generic creature.

Have you seen the Quaggan?The Kodan?They all look the same with minor variations of clothes.

I have no doubt we'd get the same amount of character creation options as any other race.

I hope so too but I doubt it.Also Quaggan are a no for me. They are a comic relief race.

Alright, let me tell you something, son.

The Quaggan are everything that is good with the world. They are the hope of the universe. They are the light in the darkness. They are the blanket for all kittens that cry out in fear.

They are ally to good, nightmare to you.

They also barely have arms. Yass kill them with that great sword. Somehow?

Doesn't stop the Asura from coming at you with toothpick greatswords.

That’s true lol. Ok bring on the Quaggan babaaay

[Rognik.2579]

Also, have you seen an angry quaggan? That's not something you will easily forget. They got some heft behind the swings, for the few willing to fight.

However, the lesser races are certainly not designed to suddenly become playable. They don't really have space for a capital, any of them, and they are a bit light on culture. Then, as people mentioned, there's retrofitting the armour for the new race(s), possibly editing some of the dialogues to accommodate the new race. Sadly, just like a new profession, I think we're likely past the point of getting a new race.

[Magek.4718]

@"Rognik.2579" said:Also, have you seen an angry quaggan? That's not something you will easily forget. They got some heft behind the swings, for the few willing to fight.

However, the lesser races are certainly not designed to suddenly become playable. They don't really have space for a capital, any of them, and they are a bit light on culture. Then, as people mentioned, there's retrofitting the armour for the new race(s), possibly editing some of the dialogues to accommodate the new race. Sadly, just like a new profession, I think we're likely past the point of getting a new race.

Nothing that can't be fixed.

I never understood why they were called "lesser" races because, with the exception of the Skritt, they all seem to be just as intelligent as anyone else.

[norbes.3620]

Quaggan seem pretty dumb to Me...

[Magek.4718]

@norbes.3620 said:Quaggan seem pretty dumb to Me...

We've seen Quaggan speak, rationalize and think critically on the same level as other races.

They might have a weird speech pattern, but they aren't dumb by any means.

[norbes.3620]

@Magek.4718 said:

@norbes.3620 said:Quaggan seem pretty dumb to Me...

We've seen Quaggan speak, rationalize and think critically on the same level as other races.

They might have a weird speech pattern, but they aren't dumb by any means.

Well we propably interacted with different npc

Even if The might not be Less intelligent their thinking is slow and naive wich can bei fatal in a stressfull Situation

Additional quaggan Are just walking meatballs with Mini Arms who keep fuu repeating The stuff u say until und think He is as smart as u

[Rognik.2579]

@"Magek.4718" said:I never understood why they were called "lesser" races because, with the exception of the Skritt, they all seem to be just as intelligent as anyone else.

I believe they're called the lesser races not because of any physical deficiency, but because they aren't as advanced societally. The major races (asura, charr, human, norn and sylvari) all have major city centers and a huge population spreading over the land. Meanwhile, the skritt have small scratches dotted all over the land, obsessing over shinies. The quaggan have small villages in the water with a very small population, generally unable to defend themselves. The grawl will worship anything that looks even remotely strange, from statues to elaborate crystals. The ogres have huntong parties, but are still on the fringe of Tyrian territory; they're probably the strongest of the lesser races. The hylek are kind of funny, in that they have a few villages and strong belief, but seem to decide their loyalties based solely on their skin colouration.

In writing that all out, I feel the last two I mentioned are the weakest as far as calling them lesser races, but aside from the quaggan, they are all equally likely to attack outsiders as help, while the major races are generally friendly to each other (except for their token villain faction). The tengu are in an in-between state, having a supposed city in the Domain of Four Winds yet still elect to remain neutral. During the attack on Lion's Arch, they attack anyone who came near their wall.

Finally, the kodan. They are unusual in that they have their bases (the giant ice floes), yet are so close to the danger of Jormag that they can't enjoy a moment's peace. (Plus, it's hard to make unique appearances when they are all polar bears.)

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

The 'lesser race' categorization is really only part of the personal story, and in that context, it's because they're in a position where they can't help themselves. A lot of that comes down, like Rognik said, to social organization- none of the five are set up in a way where they can call on other villages/kraals/scratches/whatever the grawl call their caves, while a threatened settlement of a playable race can, in theory, solicit support from an entire region's worth of other settlements.

The quaggans are possibly the least affected by this- they used to be a singular nation, and it was mentioned pre-launch that the villages still work together and offer each other aid, even if this is something we never see in-game- but they've also got an additional hurdle in that, as a society as a whole, they'd rather pick up and leave than stand their ground against an outside threat. It's only when they have nowhere else to go (or, in the case of the personal story, have eggs that won't survive being moved) that they try to fight, and by then, things are often worse than they can deal with. From the outside, that looks a lot like the postion the grawl, skritt, etc. are in.

Regarding hylek- it's more a tribe thing than a skin color thing. Granted, it's not common to see two tribes of the same color close enough together to interact, but there's at least one that includes individuals of multiple colors.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Skritt sort of have a major city, them and Hykek are the ones with an area full of crafting stations at the very least.

[Loesh.4697]

I mean part of the problem is also that the Tyrian races in general, even, and you could argue especially those in the pact have a tendency to use and abuse what they view as the 'lesser races' of their world. Unless there was a lot to gain it almost seems weird for any one race to emerge on Tyria as a new superpower, those already present are hording what is available for themselves.

[Magek.4718]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:The 'lesser race' categorization is really only part of the personal story, and in that context, it's because they're in a position where they can't help themselves. A lot of that comes down, like Rognik said, to social organization- none of the five are set up in a way where they can call on other villages/kraals/scratches/whatever the grawl call their caves, while a threatened settlement of a playable race can, in theory, solicit support from an entire region's worth of other settlements.

The quaggans are possibly the least affected by this- they used to be a singular nation, and it was mentioned pre-launch that the villages still work together and offer each other aid, even if this is something we never see in-game- but they've also got an additional hurdle in that, as a society as a whole, they'd rather pick up and leave than stand their ground against an outside threat. It's only when they have nowhere else to go (or, in the case of the personal story, have eggs that won't survive being moved) that they try to fight, and by then, things are often worse than they can deal with. From the outside, that looks a lot like the postion the grawl, skritt, etc. are in.

Regarding hylek- it's more a tribe thing than a skin color thing. Granted, it's not common to see two tribes of the same color close enough together to interact, but there's at least one that includes individuals of multiple colors.

There is one village in Hirathi Hinterlands that is nearly empty because the young Quaggan have gone to aid the humans in their war with the centaurs. The elders in that village say they are foolish for getting involved in a war that doesn't concern them.

That's one instance where Quaggan have decided to fight when they didn't have to.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Magek.4718 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:The 'lesser race' categorization is really only part of the personal story, and in that context, it's because they're in a position where they can't help themselves. A lot of that comes down, like Rognik said, to social organization- none of the five are set up in a way where they can call on other villages/kraals/scratches/whatever the grawl call their caves, while a threatened settlement of a playable race can, in theory, solicit support from an entire region's worth of other settlements.

The quaggans are possibly the least affected by this- they used to be a singular nation, and it was mentioned pre-launch that the villages still work together and offer each other aid, even if this is something we never see in-game- but they've also got an additional hurdle in that, as a society as a whole, they'd rather pick up and leave than stand their ground against an outside threat. It's only when they have nowhere else to go (or, in the case of the personal story, have eggs that won't survive being moved) that they try to fight, and by then, things are often worse than they can deal with. From the outside, that looks a lot like the postion the grawl, skritt, etc. are in.

Regarding hylek- it's more a tribe thing than a skin color thing. Granted, it's not common to see two tribes of the same color close enough together to interact, but there's at

least one

that includes individuals of multiple colors.

There is one village in Hirathi Hinterlands that is nearly empty because the young Quaggan have gone to aid the humans in their war with the centaurs. The elders in that village say they are foolish for getting involved in a war that doesn't concern them.

That's one instance where Quaggan have decided to fight when they didn't have to.

Oh, certainly. That's what I was getting at with 'society as a whole'. Even in the personal story, several of the quaggans you save wind up joining the Pact and staying on for the Maguuma campaign. Dissidents who break from the tradition can and do exist, the same way as there are grawl and ogres who don't try to kill our characters on sight, or skritt who work towards higher values than shiny gratification. There aren't enough of them to change the course of the race as a whole, not at this point, but they're proof that the existing social expectations aren't a hard limit on a race's potential.

[Rognik.2579]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Skritt sort of have a major city, them and Hykek are the ones with an area full of crafting stations at the very least.

True, the skritt have Skrittsburg and the hylek have the village in Sparkfly Fen (I think), but both of these settlements are under siege in a way that prevents stabilisation. In the case of the skritt, it's their king getting attacked. I think it's generally the Inquest behind it. As for the hylek, they are under near-constant Risen assault. I believe the hylek village's waypoint even becomes contested often, while Skrittsburg only has waypoints by the three entrances.