Am I the only one dissapointed?

[hoeppy.4567]

@Arimas.3492 said:

• First off we have the "bug" of Holosmith transform not taking the player's weapon into account, and only taking a stat from level 78 weapon, which severely hurts damageI really can't get behind that "bug" label. When they want to have a specific power level to balance abilities around they very well can do that. It's the same way Lich Form works. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see it use equipped weapon power, but from what we know (the state it's in right now) we have to assume it's a design feature, not a bug.@Arimas.3492 said:
• Secondly after playing quite a bit of Holosmith and comparing it to other Elite specs and measuring its drawbacks, the Heat mechanic is too debilitating. I'm pretty much now in the party where there should be zero drawbacks to using Forge mode. There should be no CD entering forge, there should be no damage taken from overheating, there should be no delay in losing heat and heat lost should start immediately at 10 stacks instead of 5, and even in this case we'd still be outclassed.So you essentially want it to be another flavourless kit. Remove every heat mechanic and let every skill work as if it'd be above their max heat level... I can't even start to think how much bs that is. Elite Specializations are supposed to add a new mechanic to a class, this goes against everything elite specializations are supposed to be. You don't want Photon Forge to be balanced around it's risk/reward mechanic you just want it to ... do what?

So I thought about some more traits I like to see changed to help power builds a bit.

• They have to tweak numbers and, in my opinion they have to add a 100+ heat stage to every exceed skill with Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit.
• They should rework Light Density Amplifier to be the clear choice for power builds, like a 15% damage modifier, instead of reduction. Maybe as 5% Damage Increase per heat stage.
• Crystal Configuration: Zephyr should be baseline and reworked into something fun. The middle column seems to be about changing the behaviour of Photon Forge skills, I think changing the Auto Chain isn't a bad idea here. Soulbeast has a fourth skill in it's Dagger Chain, so why not add a fourth skill to the chain with 3 hits on the final swing.
• The change to Excessive Energy and Mine Trail and now the addition of Vent Exhaust leads me to believe ArenaNet wants us to play some form of Dodge DPS. I really really dislike that concept in general. It should either deal an absurd amount of damage or not exist at all. I don't believe that it will happen, but if ArenaNet decides to move away from offensive dodge rolling, maybe we get something that's fun to play with.

[insanemaniac.2456]

@hoeppy.4567 said:So you essentially want it to be another flavourless kit. Remove every heat mechanic and let every skill work as if it'd be above their max heat level... I can't even start to think how much bs that is. Elite Specializations are supposed to add a new mechanic to a class, this goes against everything elite specializations are supposed to be. You don't want Photon Forge to be balanced around it's risk/reward mechanic you just want it to ... do what?

i only speak for myself but i dont think its a matter of balancing around risk/reward. its a matter of "should your actions be risk". in this game, the answer to that is unequivocally no everywhere except holosmith. gw2 isnt about having cutthroat mechanics that screw over the user. any time such a mechanic crops up in this game and gets notice, it either gets nerfed immediately or the community whines about it so long and so hard that anet has to do something. because its not fun to screw yourself. and this game purports to be about having fun.

so no, you can make holosmith align to the goal of not introducing things that allow the users to screw themselves without making it bland. the risk you subject yourself to can come from enemies. making it come from yourself is bad design.

i also recommend trying out firebrand. or weaver. its not like you have to give up engi to do so. getting me to play anything but scrapper in pve was prolly the best thing HoT ever did for me, even though i only rarely want to play things besides engi. and PoF looks like it will maintain that status quo for now. sadly.

[hoeppy.4567]

@insanemaniac.2456 said:i only speak for myself but i dont think its a matter of balancing around risk/reward. its a matter of "should your actions be risk". in this game, the answer to that is unequivocally no everywhere except holosmith. gw2 isnt about having cutthroat mechanics that screw over the user. any time such a mechanic crops up in this game and gets notice, it either gets nerfed immediately or the community whines about it so long and so hard that anet has to do something. because its not fun to screw yourself. and this game purports to be about having fun.I'm sorry to be so blunt and this will sound very elitist. but for me it is fun to make the right decision for the situation I am in. It's a decision to blow myself up when I play a Photonic Blasting Module build. It's fun to realize when I'm on low health and close to max heat to get the fluff out of Photon Forge. It's also fun to ocasionally fluff up and blow up when I don't want to. Either because I played around with Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit and have to suffer through a long cooldown phase or because I was on low life. I know I made a mistake and know that I have to improve upon it to get better.

@insanemaniac.2456 said:so no, you can make holosmith align to the goal of not introducing things that allow the users to screw themselves without making it bland. the risk you subject yourself to can come from enemies. making it come from yourself is bad design.It's a gameplay shift, it's your fault if you fluff up an kill yourself because you didn't pay attention to your heat. That's the risk. Deal with it and if you can't don't ruin the fun for others. Holosmith is build around this very mechanic. If you can't cope with it then Holosmith isn't for you, but I can gurantee you there are plenty people like me who enjoy this playstyle and want ArenaNet to improve upon this very mechanic. Make the risk worth it by buffing the rewards.

The risk from enemies is a bad joke because that risk is ever present regardless of your class. If you play a glass cannon you risk to die easily, if you pull to many enemies you risk to die fast, if you engage a champion alone you risk to get your hind side handed to you real fast. That is really nothing to compare to the risk introduced with overheating. Because overheating is an additional layer of risk that you have to manage.

@insanemaniac.2456 said:any time such a mechanic crops up in this game and gets notice, it either gets nerfed immediately or the community whines about it so long and so hard that anet has to do something.I'm curious. I can't remember any such event. Could you point me to one of those occasion, so I know if I just waste my time here and Holosmith gets trashed anyway?

@insanemaniac.2456 said:i also recommend trying out firebrand. or weaver. its not like you have to give up engi to do so. getting me to play anything but scrapper in pve was prolly the best thing HoT ever did for me, even though i only rarely want to play things besides engi. and PoF looks like it will maintain that status quo for now. sadly.I don't understand your point. You want me to switch classes because you dislike the core mechanic of the new engineer elite specialization?The last few days I've spent on my firebrand. I got it to 150 AR to play T4 fractals and 99+100CM with her. I'm also going through the story and map completion a second time with her to get some achievements I missed on my first tour, experience some events I missed or weren't up when I was there with my Engineer and all of that.Firebrand is fun, I enjoy her a lot and I have a couple other classes (Ele or Ranger are next in line) I'll play around with, too. But I am and will be an Engineer main.

[Chorazin.4107]

From a WvW/sPvP perspective i fail to see what the class brings to the table over other DPS specs. For PvP If you want DPS go Spellbreaker(borderline broken) or DH. With a DH you have the sustain, condi clear and DPS all rolled into one spec. You can throw up a block shield and still happily apply your DPS unlike Holosmith where you need to actively block. You dont fulfil a bunker/support role, nor are you mobile enough to compete with DD for that roaming role.

In WvW you have no real way of chasing targets, a Druid or thief can kite you all day. You dont have a lot of sustain like a scrapper to close with targets whilst eating a withering array of Rnged DPS like reflects(no photon wall is just terrible), stealth and access to tanky traits like adaptive armour. You dont have a lot of condi clear. Some incidental removal on abilities would have been nice. The best you have is cauterize which actually sets you on fire, might as well run HT. So you have to take e.gun or Elixir C as roaming is dominated by condis. Even then you are probably fighting an uphill battle vs the crazy amount of conditions some classes can put out, continuously. At least the Scrapper got Purge Gyro which is on a 20sec icd.

You dont seem to fill any role for zerging, you are never going to get to melee to apply that sweet cleave because you are going to blow up long before that with any kind of DPS spec. You dont provide a lot of boons or healing from a support angle. And the last thing you dont apply is ranged AoE pressure such as a Necro.

Hololeap should have been a 900rng port on like a 10 sec CD that damages the area when you port in, call it something else like super luminal or something roleplay retarded. There should have been some incidental condi clear on the Holosmith abilities. The best you have is Spectrum shield for a 50% reduction in condi dmg for 3 seconds on a 30 second(15second) cd.

Why are some of the abilities on such long CD's? Flashspark is bewilderingly long for what it does, 40 seconds for a 3 second blind that applies a light field(lol that 10% reduction to condi damage is going to save me) to you if you are over the heat threshold. What is this trash?

[Adamantium.3682]

@insanemaniac.2456 said:

@hoeppy.4567 said:So you essentially want it to be another flavourless kit. Remove every heat mechanic and let every skill work as if it'd be above their max heat level... I can't even start to think how much bs that is. Elite Specializations are supposed to add a new mechanic to a class, this goes against everything elite specializations are supposed to be. You don't want Photon Forge to be balanced around it's risk/reward mechanic you just want it to ... do what?

i only speak for myself but i dont think its a matter of balancing around risk/reward. its a matter of "should your actions be risk". in this game, the answer to that is unequivocally no everywhere except holosmith. gw2 isnt about having cutthroat mechanics that screw over the user. any time such a mechanic crops up in this game and gets notice, it either gets nerfed immediately or the community whines about it so long and so hard that anet has to do something. because its not fun to screw yourself. and this game purports to be about having fun.

so no, you can make holosmith align to the goal of not introducing things that allow the users to screw themselves without making it bland. the risk you subject yourself to can come from enemies. making it come from yourself is bad design.

i also recommend trying out firebrand. or weaver. its not like you have to give up engi to do so. getting me to play anything but scrapper in pve was prolly the best thing HoT ever did for me, even though i only rarely

want

to play things besides engi. and PoF looks like it will maintain that status quo for now. sadly.

I disagree with your premise entirely. Risk is everywhere in this game, Holosmith isn't even the only one that manifests as self damage, Necro corruptions apply self conditions (some of which are damaging) for a benefit. Risk, reward.

I absolutely agree with hoeppy. I really hope Anet doesn't nerf this mechanic into a bland copy of almost everything else in this game (like they did with Mallyx Rev after HoT betas). Keep the unique mechanics, keep the penalties, just give us more effectiveness to balance. Holosmith has the riskiest and most difficult risk aspect (and practically zero group support in any respectable build) so I see no reason why we should not be allowed 40k benchmarks with it. Holosmith should without a doubt be top of the dps ladder.

[Arimas.3492]

@hoeppy.4567 said:

@Arimas.3492 said:

• First off we have the "bug" of Holosmith transform not taking the player's weapon into account, and only taking a stat from level 78 weapon, which severely hurts damageI really can't get behind that "bug" label. When they want to have a specific power level to balance abilities around they very well can do that. It's the same way Lich Form works. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see it use equipped weapon power, but from what we know (the state it's in right now) we have to assume it's a design feature, not a bug.@Arimas.3492 said:
• Secondly after playing quite a bit of Holosmith and comparing it to other Elite specs and measuring its drawbacks, the Heat mechanic is too debilitating. I'm pretty much now in the party where there should be zero drawbacks to using Forge mode. There should be no CD entering forge, there should be no damage taken from overheating, there should be no delay in losing heat and heat lost should start immediately at 10 stacks instead of 5, and even in this case we'd still be outclassed.So you essentially want it to be another flavourless kit. Remove every heat mechanic and let every skill work as if it'd be above their max heat level... I can't even start to think how much bs that is. Elite Specializations are supposed to add a new mechanic to a class, this goes against everything elite specializations are supposed to be. You don't want Photon Forge to be balanced around it's risk/reward mechanic you just want it to ... do what?

So I thought about some more traits I like to see changed to help power builds a bit.

• They have to tweak numbers and, in my opinion they have to add a 100+ heat stage to every exceed skill with
  Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit
  .
• They should rework
  Light Density Amplifier
  to be the clear choice for power builds, like a 15% damage modifier, instead of reduction. Maybe as 5% Damage Increase per heat stage.
• Crystal Configuration: Zephyr
  should be baseline and reworked into something fun. The middle column seems to be about changing the behaviour of Photon Forge skills, I think changing the Auto Chain isn't a bad idea here. Soulbeast has a fourth skill in it's Dagger Chain, so why not add a fourth skill to the chain with 3 hits on the final swing.
• The change to
  Excessive Energy
  and
  Mine Trail
  and now the addition of
  Vent Exhaust
  leads me to believe ArenaNet wants us to play some form of Dodge DPS. I really really dislike that concept in general. It should either deal an absurd amount of damage or not exist at all. I don't believe that it will happen, but if ArenaNet decides to move away from offensive dodge rolling, maybe we get something that's fun to play with.

I don't want it to be another flavorless kit but my main point is even if it had those changes it would still be worse then the other classes. We really need a damage increase or a functionality change to where we can stay in forge longer, or use forge more often without having to wait for the slow CD losing heat. The main thing is as Holosmith we have a higher risk/reward factor than any other spec in the game, one that can actually kill us if we mess up, but we still do less damage than all of the other classes. If anything Holosmith should be the best DPS spec in the game with the current drawbacks, no other elite spec has a risk factor of killing themselves because of their mechanic.

So really, we need a DPS increase. Best way to do that is to increase the scaling of forge damage and speed up the time it takes to lose heat so you can jump back into Forge. As for the utility skills I wouldn't say its flavorful in the way they work because its so situational that if you need to use an Exceed skill but aren't at the 50% heat level its not worth it, which can cause problems in certain circumstances and the class loses effectiveness. IMO the heat level thresholds shouldn't change the way the skill works or its range/radius/CD but instead they should add extra affects on top of what it does baseline, kind of like the way Coolant Blast works, it always is 20s CD and always heals the same amount but if you use it over the heat threshold you get extra HoT.

And speaking of the Heat mechanic, after playing a bit more now, its really a bad outlook to always have that possible suicide there when you're playing, whereas other classes don't. Every other elite spec in the game trades something for their new mechanic without it being detriment to the player, whereas engineer trades its life for its new mechanic (on top of elite toolbelt). I would have rather lost all of the toolbelt skills if we had one of the best dps specs in the game that added a lot of flavor with utilities, rather than risk dying trying to be even remotely close to other classes dps.

[Adamantium.3682]

@hoeppy.4567 said:

@Arimas.3492 said:

• First off we have the "bug" of Holosmith transform not taking the player's weapon into account, and only taking a stat from level 78 weapon, which severely hurts damageI really can't get behind that "bug" label. When they want to have a specific power level to balance abilities around they very well can do that. It's the same way Lich Form works. That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to see it use equipped weapon power, but from what we know (the state it's in right now) we have to assume it's a design feature, not a bug.

Two things which make this pretty clearly a bug to me, even if they are purposefully not fixing it for some reason.

1. Kits had this exact same problem years ago. They acknowledged it and fixed it. It doesn't make sense to me it would be a bug in one case but not another.
2. Equipping a more powerful weapon does not increase your damage. I struggle believing that is intended.

I get the idea behind what you're saying, it seems like semantics if the damage is at X, who cares if it's because it uses your ascended weapon stats or because they tuned it to that level? I do believe it is a bug though and just simply buffing damage without addressing it would be a mistake.

[Adamantium.3682]

@Arimas.3492 said:Every other elite spec in the game trades something for their new mechanic without it being detriment to the player, whereas engineer trades its life for its new mechanic (on top of elite toolbelt).

No it doesn't. It doesn't balance life for damage. You don't have to take self damage. Nowhere in the Holosmith design is it required that you explode and take the overheat damage in order to use the spec. It's there as an added risk if you don't manage the mechanic correctly.

Necros give up shroud, Eles give up quick attunement swap, etc. I haven't played every other elite spec yet to go into each profession (this wouldn't be the place anyways), but saying every other spec gives up something without it being a detriment is silly.

[hoeppy.4567]

@Arimas.3492 said:I don't want it to be another flavorless kit but my main point is even if it had those changes it would still be worse then the other classes. We really need a damage increase or a functionality change to where we can stay in forge longer, or use forge more often without having to wait for the slow CD losing heat.@Arimas.3492 said:So really, we need a DPS increase. Best way to do that is to increase the scaling of forge damage and speed up the time it takes to lose heat so you can jump back into Forge.That's my point exactly, unless you play Photonic Blasting Module you never have to overheat. You never have to wait for the slow cooldown phase. If you fluff up and blow up by accident that's your punishment, aka risk. If you play Photonic Blasting Module you get Laser's Edge outside of the Forge for the entire cooldown phase and the explosion damage itself isn't that bad either.If you mean *slow CD losing heat** when you leave Photon Forge via F5, then I have to disagree with you again. If it'd cool down any faster, sword would be absolutely useless and being above 50/100 heat would only be a very short period of time. Right now you get about 3x Skill 2 before you drop below 50/100 heat and have to reenter forge to build heat again. If we assume the Sword AA gets buffed that'll be pretty good.

I agree on the damage buffs. But we do not need a functionality change at all. It's also not helpful to compare us to other, new, Elite Specializations right now, because they'll be balanced as well or get their bugs fixed that make them quite strong right now.

@Arimas.3492 said:As for the utility skills I wouldn't say its flavorful in the way they work because its so situational that if you need to use an Exceed skill but aren't at the 50% heat level its not worth it, which can cause problems in certain circumstances and the class loses effectiveness. IMO the heat level thresholds shouldn't change the way the skill works or its range/radius/CD but instead they should add extra affects on top of what it does baseline, kind of like the way Coolant Blast works, it always is 20s CD and always heals the same amount but if you use it over the heat threshold you get extra HoT.Again I have to disagree with you here. I think duration/radius increases are fine as heat mechanic. But if they, and I really hope they do, add a 100+ Heat stage to every Exceed skill they could be more creative there. Some ideas:

• Coolant Blast: Above 100 Heat healing is increased by 25%.
• +-> Cauterize: Above 100 Heat you no longer burn yourself.
• Hard Light Arena: Above 100 heat enemies can no longer pass through the Wall.
• +-> Prismatic Singularity: Above 100 heat the explosion Dazes for 1 Second.
• Spectrum Shield: Above 100 Heat the duration is increased by 100% (maybe just 50%)
• +-> Flash Spark: Above 100 Heat the cooldown is reduced by 50% (kinda boring, would prefer damage but don't think that'd fit the skill)
• Laser Disk: Above 100 Heat the duration is increased by 100%
• +-> Blade Burst: Above 100 Heat you fire an additional blade per target. (more realistic would be damage increased by 50%, because an additional blade would be 2.5x the damage of the base skill, but still it's a 30 second CD... I think that'd be fair)
• Photon Wall: Above 100 Heat the duration is increased by 100% (maybe just 50%)
• +-> Particle Accelerator: Above 100 Heat the damage is increased by 25%.
• Prime Light Beam: Above 100 Heat the field deals 100% increased damage.

@Arimas.3492 said:And speaking of the Heat mechanic, after playing a bit more now, its really a bad outlook to always have that possible suicide there when you're playing, whereas other classes don't.Welcome to the Risk introduced with Holosmith. Sorry to be that blunt again, but I have to tell you the same I told @insanemaniac.2456. If you can't deal with it, Holosmith isn't for you. There are plenty people like me who welcome that layer of Risk and heat management that comes with it. Don't ruin the spec for all of us who enjoy such a playstyle, because that mechanic is the very core of the Holosmith gameplay.

[Arimas.3492]

Welcome to the Risk introduced with Holosmith. Sorry to be that blunt again, but I have to tell you the same I told @insanemaniac.2456. If you can't deal with it, Holosmith isn't for you. There are plenty people like me who welcome that layer of Risk and heat management that comes with it. Don't ruin the spec for all of us who enjoy such a playstyle, because that mechanic is the very core of the Holosmith gameplay.

Besides the suggestions I have for changing the way things work my entire point is the risk is not equal to the reward. Holosmith needs a damage buff badly, I just proposed ways to do it, as well as mitigating bad functionality TBH. I like the Holosmith a lot and can certainly deal with how Heat/Overheat etc works, but its not worth it considering we get out DPS'd by support specs by a wide margin.

Also not sure why you'd rather have the increased risk when the damage isn't even worth it. TBH I'd rather have no risks AND increased damage, unless you're a masochist I don't see why you'd want to even have a chance to suicide when fighting.

[hoeppy.4567]

@Arimas.3492 said:Besides the suggestions I have for changing the way things work my entire point is the risk is not equal to the reward. Holosmith needs a damage buff badly, I just proposed ways to do it, as well as mitigating bad functionality TBH. I like the Holosmith a lot and can certainly deal with how Heat/Overheat etc works, but its not worth it considering we get out DPS'd by support specs by a wide margin.

Also not sure why you'd rather have the increased risk when the damage isn't even worth it. TBH I'd rather have no risks AND increased damage, unless you're a masochist I don't see why you'd want to even have a chance to suicide when fighting.You are a very selective reader are you? Throughout this whole thread I've made suggestions to improve the damage and by that the reward to juggle heat. All I've read from you is "remove the risk, because the reward isn't worth it". That's not good feedback at all. It screams "I'm okay with Holosmith being bad as long as I don't have to deal with my mistakes." I fail to see where Holosmith has "bad functionality". What Holosmith needs right now is numbers tweaking, not it's core mechanic removed.

And as I said in my last post: It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare any of the new Elite Specializations with each other right now, because they all will most likely see some balance changes and bug fixes (like the Quickfire fix for Firebrand).

[Snafoo.2869]

@Adamantium.3682 said:I disagree with your premise entirely. Risk is everywhere in this game, Holosmith isn't even the only one that manifests as self damage, Necro corruptions apply self conditions (some of which are damaging) for a benefit. Risk, reward.

I like the concept of Holo's risk-reward a lot, just like I've always loved it on my necro.There is however a serious difference here and that's that necro corruptions are disadvantages the necro can then turn into advantages: by transferring/transforming the conditions, which is a basic concept for the class.The only way a Holosmith can turn the PF disadvantage around is by taking one specific Grandmaster trait. Imagine if Corruptions were about 3 times more dangerous to the necro and the only way to counter that was one specific GM trait ... no one would use them.

See it isn't just about Risk vs. Reward, it's about Risk AND Reward. Photon Forge exploding should deliver AoE damage baseline, since the disadvantage is baseline (Blasting Module should actually add more burning as well).

[Moralio.4701]

So it's been a week and I must say I'm disappointed. Not by nerfs, not by lack of utilities, but by having core spec mechanic tied to watching UI instead of playing. You need to watch heat bar if you don't want to explode at inconvenient time and even with Enhanced Capacity it fills way too quickly. I know that there is color indicator on your character, but that hardly helps when there is a lot of visual noise on screen.

[Adamantium.3682]

@Snafoo.2869 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:I disagree with your premise entirely. Risk is

everywhere

in this game, Holosmith isn't even the only one that manifests as self damage, Necro corruptions apply self conditions (some of which are damaging) for a benefit. Risk, reward.

I like the concept of Holo's risk-reward a lot, just like I've always loved it on my necro.There is however a serious difference here and that's that necro corruptions are disadvantages the necro can then turn into advantages: by transferring/transforming the conditions, which is a basic concept for the class.The only way a Holosmith can turn the PF disadvantage around is by taking one specific Grandmaster trait. Imagine if Corruptions were about 3 times more dangerous to the necro and the only way to counter that was one specific GM trait ... no one would use them.

See it isn't just about Risk vs. Reward, it's about Risk AND Reward. Photon Forge exploding should deliver AoE damage baseline, since the disadvantage is baseline (Blasting Module should actually add more burning as well).

Or just, you know, don't blow up. I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting that is a requirement to play Holosmith.

The risk is the potential to hurt yourself. It's not required.

[Adamantium.3682]

@Moralio.4701 said:So it's been a week and I must say I'm disappointed. Not by nerfs, not by lack of utilities, but by having core spec mechanic tied to watching UI instead of playing. You need to watch heat bar if you don't want to explode at inconvenient time and even with Enhanced Capacity it fills way too quickly. I know that there is color indicator on your character, but that hardly helps when there is a lot of visual noise on screen.

Just like anything in this game you will watch the UI a lot until you get more comfortable.

I can play core Engi builds and rarely look at the skills. Put me on a Condi Mirage and my eyes aren't leaving the skill bar.

[Snafoo.2869]

@Adamantium.3682 said:Or just, you know, don't blow up. I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting that is a requirement to play Holosmith.

The risk is the potential to hurt yourself. It's not required.

Or play another class, or another game ... that wasn't the discussion though.The discussion is about the downside that exists to Overheating and how that relates to the rest of the skills, traits, mechanics in the game.I never said you have to overheat, just like no necro has to take Corruptions, but the fact that the option is there means there has to be a payoff. There is a payoff for every detrimental effect you can put on yourself (see also: Overcharged Shot or Head Butt), there isn't for Overheat.Unless you take PBM of course, so obviously the devs realized this and put in a GM trait to deal with it.I m only saying locking any and all positive effects behind a GM is unfair, since that isn't the case for any other mechanic in the game.

[green plum.7514]

I can't comment on Holosmith in group PVE, but from the open world perspective, if feels much like a less forgiving version of Reaper in reverse. Both classes have two stances that you need to juggle and one stance fuels the other one. The heat mechanic is interesting but very unforgiving and forces you to watch the UI all the time, and when you make a mistake (which happens fast), you most likely die. In comparison, Reaper has very similar solo PvE damage, is pretty much unkillable and much easier to play. Holosmith is fun, but stressful, and in the end its gameplay mechanic doesn't seem unique enough.

[Adamantium.3682]

@Snafoo.2869 said:

@Adamantium.3682 said:Or just, you know, don't blow up. I'm not sure why you seem to be suggesting that is a requirement to play Holosmith.

The risk is the potential to hurt yourself. It's not required.

Or play another class, or another game ... that wasn't the discussion though.What? Where did I ever suggest this? "Play something else if you don't like it" is not even close to what I said.The discussion is about the downside that exists to Overheating and how that relates to the rest of the skills, traits, mechanics in the game.I never said you have to overheat, just like no necro has to take Corruptions, but the fact that the option is there means there has to be a payoff. There is a payoff for every detrimental effect you can put on yourself (see also: Overcharged Shot or Head Butt), there isn't for Overheat.You still seem to be suggesting something about Overheating is mandatory. The comparison of "well Necros don't have to use Corruptions" is odd to me. You do know that Photon Forge was meant to be used while balancing heat and you can turn it off before you Overheat right?

Nothing

about Overheating is mandatory. You

never

have to overheat unless you have mismanaged PF. (obviously a PBM build being the exception)

Ignoring specific numbers for a second, because I think most people agree they're undertuned even if we disagree why, Photon Forge is a powerful transformation that greatly increases your outgoing damage. If you mindlessly spam the skills you will Overheat and probably die. If you pay attention and get a good rotation going and leave PF as close to 149 or 99 heat as possible, you will be a good Holosmith.

[Anthony.7630]

I been playing guardian for a while and guardian feels so good

My feedback for holosmith is - the risk reward is out of balance. Holosmith doesn't do enough damage for the risk of hurting himself in photon explosion.

The truth is - holosmith should have a high damage because holosmith lacks group ultility as well as cc and strong healing / cleansings.

If you play another profession you will notice how smoother and stronger it is.

Some fixes i had in mine were -

Make holosmith do condi damage with long stacking condi. Could be burns and bleeds. This will keep holosmith balance in pvp and in pve they can do long stacking sustain condi damage.

Another fix would be to give holosmith more personal quickness fury and might. It would make him be destroyed in pvp by corruption and spellbreakers while still being strong in pve

Holosmith is hard to balance because damage is all he has and its hard to balance for pvp and pve dps.

[Zenith.7301]

Issue is pvp holds holosmith back because holosmith burst is really strong, and if they don't split balance a buff to holosmith to be only PvE, the pvp crybabies will be back in force.

[draxynnic.3719]

@"green plum.7514" said:I can't comment on Holosmith in group PVE, but from the open world perspective, if feels much like a less forgiving version of Reaper in reverse. Both classes have two stances that you need to juggle and one stance fuels the other one. The heat mechanic is interesting but very unforgiving and forces you to watch the UI all the time, and when you make a mistake (which happens fast), you most likely die. In comparison, Reaper has very similar solo PvE damage, is pretty much unkillable and much easier to play. Holosmith is fun, but stressful, and in the end its gameplay mechanic doesn't seem unique enough.

This is pretty much what I've been thinking. Holosmith is basically the engineer's take on the Reaper, but it doesn't have the necromancer characteristics that actually make Reaper work. The second health bar is a large part of this, but reaper also has a lot of other features that make it feel more effective and generally more survivable than the holosmith.

That said, I haven't played around with it enough to rule out the possibility that the holo will get better as I get more experience with it, but my feeling at the moment really is one of "interesting skills and mechanics, but reaper does it better".

[Snafoo.2869]

@Adamantium.3682 said:You still seem to be suggesting something about Overheating is mandatory.

@Adamantium.3682 said:What? Where did I ever suggest this?

You may answer your own question.

@Adamantium.3682 said:The comparison of "well Necros don't have to use Corruptions" is odd to me. You do know that Photon Forge was meant to be used while balancing heat and you can turn it off before you Overheat right? Nothing about Overheating is mandatory. You never have to overheat unless you have mismanaged PF. (obviously a PBM build being the exception)

I'm only answering your own comparison of Necro Corruptions to PF and pointing out that there is an innate difference: one is a mechanic with a downside that can be turned to an advantage, the other is a mechanic that can initiate another mechanic which has only a downside (without using a GM trait).

It is exactly because you don't have to Overheat that you can't look at it as an intrinsic characteristic of PF, it is it's own mechanic, separate from PF even though PF is what enables it. Put in other words: PF would be no different without Overheat damage: you would use the skills and if you used them too much or too long you would be locked out of using them for a while.This is us how it is with every other similar mechanic: Firebrand tomes, Warrior Burst, Thief initiative; they are resources you spend, the downside to spending them is no longer having them to spend, only with Heat (a reversed form of resource spending) is there an 'extra downside', an added mechanic in other words.If the Overheat damage was removed (which I am not advocating btw) no one would complain PF is now worse, whereas a Necro would certainly feel cheated if the self-Conditions where removed from Corruptions, that is why the comparison you made is flawed.

Without taking a specific GM trait, Overheat instant damages and puts a DoT on the Holosmith, a hefty negative effect with 0 positive effect: this is a mechanic without precedent in GW2. You may think that's ok and may even think it's thematically relevant, but I don't agree it is comparable to other skills/traits and I don't understand why the Overheat Explosion isn't baseline AoE.

[Hex.2579]

@JETWING.2759 said:Disapointed...

1: Heat mechanic don't works on others skills and weapons than exceeds and sword.2: Self kill with overheat.3: Loss of toolbelt skill #5.4: Lack of combo finishers on some skills:

• Corona burst: blast
• Photon blitz: projectile.
• Holographic shockwave: blast.
• Lazer disc: whirl.
• Blade burst: projectile.

5: Lack of sustain (how can a melee spec don't have sustain?).

words =/the overheating system creates a high risk, high reward thingies. but i only see the high risk, where are our high rewards?they need to rework photo forge all over again. i'm not talking about its cd. i think 6s cd is good enough. but you literally get to the point of overheating with just a few swing of skills. when you're out of it, your dps drops especially on a power spec. it's cool they give us a sword, but what are our choices for off hand weapons? lol. pistol is condi, shield is very defensive. it's good in spvp, but pve with a shield, really? they may need to add another sword as off hand weapon and it maybe viable for a power build in pve. but i'm afraid that will ever happen especially when it comes to power build in pve.

for now all i can think about holosmith is condi spec is better than their power friend. and for that, i'm disappointed. everything leans towards condi. i'm not a condi hater but i want diversity and that a profession can be good both power and condi in pve. plus, not to mention the moment we get anything good, one week later it got 20% nerf damage. ok cool, what else could we do now? nothing. cuz all other classes could do it better and pump out more boons or utilities than we can.it looks like it's a dps focus spec but the dps has been nerfed a lot. i just think they need to rework the photo forge and heat system to synergy better with other traits that they just changed before the expac.

@hoeppy.4567 said:

• The change to Excessive Energy and Mine Trail and now the addition of Vent Exhaust leads me to believe ArenaNet wants us to play some form of Dodge DPS. I really really dislike that concept in general. It should either deal an absurd amount of damage or not exist at all. I don't believe that it will happen, but if ArenaNet decides to move away from offensive dodge rolling, maybe we get something that's fun to play with.

maybe they're not sure what they're doing after all? if they give us dodge dps, then at least buff the dps or give us one more dodge. if not, thieves do it better.engi is my first character that i made in this game, and i don't want to give up on it. my other main is a necro and it's just as bad as engi when it comes to group content. lol. but oh well. at least now i can happily say i love core engi more than ever. great job Anet, make an elite spec that make people not want to use it. lol.

[zinkz.7045]

@Zenith.7301 said:Issue is pvp holds holosmith back because holosmith burst is really strong, and if they don't split balance a buff to holosmith to be only PvE, the pvp crybabies will be back in force.

As opposed to the PvE 'crybabies' who crying about the DPS in a game mode where even the "hardest" content is so easy it can be completed with nearly any sane composition or even by groups of 4-6 or some even by a solo thief before they nerfed it in certain cases.

[hoeppy.4567]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:Issue is pvp holds holosmith back because holosmith burst is really strong, and if they don't split balance a buff to holosmith to be only PvE, the pvp crybabies will be back in force.

As opposed to the PvE 'crybabies' who crying about the DPS in a game mode where even the "hardest" content is so easy it can be completed with nearly any sane composition or even by groups of 4-6 or some even by a solo thief before they nerfed it in certain cases.

Well... I don't know from which angle you came to this comment and I don't disagree with you entirely, but most players are not at a level to 4-6 man raids (I don't say I am). Let alone challenge modes. The issue with PvE (and that's one issue that made me take a long break from GW2 where I only logged on every once in a while to play the new LS Episode) is that the players that are capable to 4-6 man said content make the "Meta". Even if they're more relaxed about it internally, for the general public the "Meta" is the holy grail. If you're not part of the "Meta" you don't get to have fun and are forced off your spec/class of choice. That also happens in PvP. For example, I remember a time whenever a warrior was on your team he was to blame if you lost. I'm not a fan of either situation.

I hope to see some balance patches in the future that brings every dps spec to around the 35k benchmark dps in PvE. For some classes that means nerfs, for others, like Holosmith, buffs. I hope...