[request/suggestion] Restore an abandoned feature

[Arkham Creed.7358]

In light of a certain controversy (NO COMMENT, this thread is NOT about that) I got to thinking; why was that writing challenge being talked about an issue; this game has had a very effective solve for that problem since the head-start access so many years ago. As I began raising a new alt I realized why; that feature was removed. Rather unceremoniously, without mention in any patch notes, for seemingly no reason.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality

Personality. A system that allowed, at least in non-voiced conversations, for players to imprint a bit more character onto their characters. I always felt it could be fleshed out a bit more, but didn't have any actual flaws or problems to it. And when combined with the branching paths of the original personal story, as well as the three factions, actually gave players a lot of freedom and choice for creating our own adventures and defining our characters. Recently we've had a bit less choice of what paths to follow, and with the forming of the Pact our choice of order became all but meaningless. This is why protagonist characters began to feel rather bland; because we've all been railroaded down the same path, with the same personality as every other character of the same race. Yet the solve for this isn't in doing anything new; it's doing something old. The personality and superficially (emphasis on SUPERFICIALLY; we need the illusion of choice more than actual choice) branching story paths would completely solve that problem, without requiring the development team to do much more than write an alternate conversation or two that ultimately boil down to the same point as the one they already have, and the occasional alt-story mission with the same resolution or impact on the overall narrative. As a writer myself I can say half of that work is already done and sitting in somebody's trash bin right now; rejected ideas and old scenes that the editor tossed on the chopping block.

[Dante.1763]

I always disliked it after it went away, even though the choice at the beginning of the game does show up later on, there are some things a character would or wouldnt say even if thats their personality given some situations and it was nice to ahve the options the other two choices allowed if you wanted to.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

Technically speaking it never actually went away, most of the system is still there it's just hidden now.

[Blocki.4931]

The system at least spiritually lives on in the branching dialogue we get every now and then

[hugo.4705]

Yeah hope they will reintroduce personnality. Nasty 2014 feature pack: he removed all the good stuffs. Remember golem chess in metrica province near students at south-west?

[Gehenna.3625]

I don't miss it. It never really made much sense to me, at least not the way it was done.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I think the implementation of this idea was at odds with having a voiced protagonist. Eventually, they dropped personality for voiced protagonists. I personally would prefer to have neither, but personality was, in my opinion, the more interesting system.

[starlinvf.1358]

Well..... on one hand.... by design, the choice never mattered. This was also a time where a bunch of games were getting heat for "branching narratives" that didn't go anywhere, and effectively did nothing to help story or the interactions. And while writing this stuff might be somewhat trivial, scripting it into the game still takes time, resources and testing.... things you can't really afford when schedules start to get tight.

On the other hand, it complicates continuity. Each branch has an exponential growth effect on the number of variables, and thus narrative factors, you have to account for from the point of origin. Mass Effect 2 and 3 became poster children for this, as call backs and narrative carry overs from ME1 would have HUGE ramifications to the plot lines of its sequels; and thus were uniformly sidelined to both enable a new player to jump in without having to have played the previous games, and prevent the outcome of several major plot points in the previous game from damaging the continuity of the newer games.

On the third hand, Player want to feel like their choices matter...... and often enough, those choices are intentionally destructive. This is hard enough to deal with within a self-contained story; but once it bleeds over to into a new world state, the writer no longer as any control over the situation UNLESS they reign in the Player and invalidate (or at least marginalize) the majority of their previous actions.

Whats most damning about GW2's story line is that it exists as a single continuity. All actions meant to culminate into the current state of "The Commander", and threads of narrative logic keeping the story as coherent as possible. But due to that exponential variables problem, the more a player is allowed to deviate from an intended norm, the more difficult it is to keep that player on track between plot points. Just from a writers stand point alone, how significant would it be if the player had skipped the fight against Mordremoth, but still pursued Balthazar into the Path of Fire campaign? To reconcile that, there would have to be a Second Commander, or at least a Second Hero, to have done that deed. But now what happens after? What are the ramifications if they meet each other? Why wouldn't they seek each other out? And if/when they do meet, who plays the role of the second? That is a MASSIVE problem in its own right..... but what if the player decides to go back and play Heart of Thorns, and completes that story..... do you simply retcon everything after that to now incorporate that fact?

That might like it doesn't relate to the Personality system.... but when you try to assess the Commander's character, and their interaction with non-disposable characters, the whole system starts to get thrown into chaos. Like the whole Falling out with Bahram, which was meant to sit on a knifes edge, could had easily resulted in turning his vengeance and frustration into full antagonism had I chosen to be jerk to him (which a LOT of people wanted to do). Now you're faced with a problem..... how do you make Barham an ally when the story needs it? Would it even be possible without having to force it in the narrative? Or do you simply write him out entirely? (which a LOT of people wanted) And if that did happen, how to reconcile people who didn't go down that path? Or do you simply force that path regardless of what the player chooses?

THAT is the problem with the Personality system.... it either matters, or it doesn't. Theres no middle ground to where it can affect dialog, not influence the story, while still looking like it meant something mechanically, because its the "Commander's" interaction with other characters that are driving the story. This wasn't a big problem in GW1, because the player never the sole focus the story. You were always a +1 to someone else's story, or paired with another character that could play off your choices to balance the story line, and written on the assumption that both paths act together to create that outcome. It also helped that the arcs were a lot shorter, and purposefully excluded other actors from much of the dialog..... your other companions are simply +1s to stories that are not their own.

[joneirikb.7506]

Just to clarify something:

The personality system's only purpose is/was to allow you to imprint "some" of the personality you envisioned for your character onto your avatar. Not actually giving you "choices" per say.

That said I miss it, because it was a very easy and efficient way of giving players "some" way of actually creating and relating to their avatar as a character. With the removal of the Personality System, it takes a lot more effort (at least from my side) to project any kind of personality on characters. They do indeed feel mostly lifeless and flat.

As opposed to branching story line which is about giving "some" choices to the actual player. While they still doesn't give us actual choices since we are still funneled down the same path in the end. But that is ok, this is an MMO game, not a top story based cRPG.

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This is one reason I largely prefer text based conversations over voiced, voicing locks you down in what you can do with the conversations, while text lets you expand, change, adjust, and just give a lot more options for cheaper and faster. (In general if I see a RPG brag it is fully voiced, I don't consider it an RPG but an Interactive Movie.)

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The other side of the coin, IF ANet does re-implement this, will they actually do anything with it ? Or would it just be a minor side effect in OW Tyria, and not used outside of that at all ? And would that be enough ?

I'd be fine with that personally, I just miss the system in general. But I'd love to see it be used more widely in the game.

[Taygus.4571]

@hugo.4705 said:Yeah hope they will reintroduce personnality. Nasty 2014 feature pack: he removed all the good stuffs. Remember golem chess in metrica province near students at south-west?

That's been added back. Just not in core.It's in Auric Basin, HoT map :)

[Arkham Creed.7358]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:A well thought out post.

You're over thinking things dramatically. The goal here is invoking a feeling of player agency, this requires only the illusion of choice, not actual choice. Those cut scenes happen in a vacuum, so as long as they have the same net result it doesn't matter what specifically is said or done. So what "branching paths" actually means is "differing context." You could make two different choices and be sent to the same instance, with the same boss, and the same end result on the world state, but player A and player B are told they are there for different reasons, start in different areas of the zone, tackle events in different orders, with different "goals" listed on screen. In the end both players ultimately experienced the same content, at the same time, and got the same result; BUT player A felt like the vigil badass leading a crack team of soldiers directly into the enemy fortress to confront their leader directly, while player B gets to be the whispers secret agent leading a small band of spies behind enemy lines to sneak into an outpost and assassinate their commander. THAT is the important part; not the content, the CONTEXT. The FEELING of it.

And as for the personality system and voiced dialog; Dragon Age 2. Probably the least popular of that series, but the one with objectively the best player dialog/personality system. Period. The player could pick between three personality types in dialog, and the game actually tracked your favorite and would have certain moments when the character would speak in that way without prompting, to greet other characters for example. But it was all a trick. It never had any effect on the story, and even 90% of every conversation was the same. You pick the sarcastic option and the character would respond with a bad joke, the NPC would react, an then the rest of the conversation would play as normal. But it FELT bigger and deeper than it was. When Hawke walked up and greeted an old friend with a lame pun he didn't simply feel like a game character, he felt like MY character, even if nothing actually changed.

Beyond that, there is actually a great system in game for this already; the random voice clips characters say when using abilities or getting boons. Just record a bunch more, add each to an index based on personality, and set each characters active index to the one that matches their current personality score. So maybe "Urge to kill rising!" only plays on a ferocious character, while "I can out run a centaur!" only plays on a charming, jokey character. You get the point.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

I always wondered if personality was a feature that was left woefully undone after NCSoft (hypothetically) said, "Enough with the, 'When it's ready business.' Get the game out." every once in a while I run across some vestige of it. When I do, I think, "This had some promise which was never fulfilled."

[Zaklex.6308]

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I always wondered if personality was a feature that was left woefully undone after NCSoft (hypothetically) said, "Enough with the, 'When it's ready business.' Get the game out." every once in a while I run across some vestige of it. When I do, I think, "This had some promise which was never fulfilled."

Problem with is, we've been told that NCSoft took a hands off approach with ArenaNet on GW2...as in, we're going to exert zero control over you while making this game, whether you believe that or not is up to each individual person. As far as the Personality options during the Personal Story, there was an explanation given why they were taken out, I just don't remember if it was on the old forums or in an old Guild Chat(what ever it's prior name was), but they did say why it no longer fit and was removed.