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I'm sorry for Trahearne (SPOILERS)


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...even reading the notes on the wiki about the dialogue that was changed, I still can't find any instances of Trahearne stealing the spotlight and taking credit for the Commander's accomplishments. I didn't play the story before the changes happened, though, so those notes are all I have to go by. Did anything change all that drastically (other than what Hannelore has said)?Anyway, I don't mind him or his role in the story at all; it's kind of a relief to not have my character be the uber special chosen one and be in charge of everything. He's actually one of my favorite characters, and the ending of Heart of Thorns made me tear up a bit...poor guy. He deserved better than that.

About his voice acting: When I first encountered him, I did like his voice. I thought it was quite soothing, but I was kind of irritated with how flat and bland he always seemed...and then it hit me: he's been isolated for how many years? No one respects him, everyone seems to give him a wide berth because he creeps them out (through no fault of his own, but he's studying Orr), and while he may have a friendship with a few people (the Order mentors and Tegwen), it seems to be just those few people. He's had practically no one to talk to for the past two decades, and now he's in charge of an entire army almost overnight. No wonder he sounds flat and incredibly awkward - he has no idea what the heck he's doing and he's uncomfortable around so many people. I sound much the same way whenever I talk to people: stilted, awkward, voice squeaking, talking way too fast (or too slow)...and I'm just a socially awkward young adult; I haven't been studying a dead and decaying nation full of zombies and a soul-sucking Elder Dragon for two decades! And since I doubt the Risen or Zhaitan would just passively let Trahearne observe them...he's been constantly dodging death for over twenty years. How would that affect someone's mindset and ability to relate to/socialize with other people? Really, it's a wonder Trahearne hadn't gone flat-out insane.In Season Two, his voice acting seems much more lively and normal, not stilted or flat - he's settled into his role and is (mostly) comfortable with his job now. He allows himself to emote a lot more. There's a little instance near the end of Pact Assaulted (in the episode Point of No Return), after you signal the airships to bomb the bananas out of attacking Mordrem, where you can hear Trahearne bellowing at the top of his lungs, "YEAH!! WE DID IT!!!!" And he sounds genuinely thrilled. It's hilarious :joy:

Now, all that said - I really, really wish his role in the story had been established earlier than Claw Island for non-sylvari players. For sylvari, we meet him early on in our personal story and we get to know him quite well - we even get a bonus cutscene when we meet him again on Claw Island where he excitedly greets us again, happy that someone he knows is now here to help (it's one of the rare few times he shows emotion in the personal story). It seems natural, then, that our character so readily accepts his help and is such a close friend of his - for sylvari, he's an old friend and someone we already look up to. But for everyone else, he just shows up out of nowhere and suddenly becomes co-protagonist for the entire rest of the story. That's jarring, and one of the cases where the writing really fell flat.

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@Batel.9206 said:...even reading the notes on the wiki about the dialogue that was changed, I still can't find any instances of Trahearne stealing the spotlight and taking credit for the Commander's accomplishments. I didn't play the story before the changes happened, though, so those notes are all I have to go by. Did anything change all that drastically (other than what Hannelore has said)?

Not much. The main change wasn't the writing; it was mostly the same stuff, just with a different delivery. There was never truth to the notion that he took credit for our accomplishments.

The underlying issue was always more along the lines that he received all of the (perceived) benefits for our heroics. Kormir Syndrome, we called it back in the day; when the only tangible 'reward' for our labors is a position that isn't tenable for a PC to hold, and so we get passed over in favor of the nearest convenient NPC. That sentiment came up a lot in the first year or two of the game's lifespan, with both Trahearne and Kiel. It never really mattered that Trahearne himself was always quite humble about the appointment. The narrative saw to it that he got something meaningful out of all our efforts, and that we didn't.

Then that reward ended up killing him, and when it was offered to us, we explicitly turned it down. The writers then spent two seasons and an expansion driving home what a headache it is to manage even a small group of adventurers. I don't think it's a mystery why the complaint doesn't come up so often anymore.

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  • 1 month later...

Honestly, the problems with Trahearne are... kinda rooted in the nature of the Sylvari. They've seemingly got (originally) this grand sense of importance and grandness of scale insisted upon. Not that its a bad thing to expand the racial scope beyond just humans like Guild Wars 1 did but something about the worldbuilding for Sylvari has always struck me as... just slightly sue-ish.

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Well... the good part is that he's joined with us, not against us! How would any of you like having to FIGHT Caladbolg AND Trahearne! With Caladbolg's powers plus Trahearnes necromancer abilities, the chances of ANY of you winning is 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001. Especially if you were alone. You'll be Dead! How would you like being dead?

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@Clyan.1593 said:I remember me and my friends making fun of him, generally making fun of everything in the story from lvl 1-80, especially the fight against zhaitan was just too goofy and cheesy for us.

But now, with the game developing and getting better (imo) looking back Trahearne's death feels kind of bad. Almost like the community killed him, instead of Mordremoth.The same goes with Scarlett of course, however, I personally feel Scarlett died a good death.Trahearne totally got mutilated. That guy was a firstborn, he belonged to a rare line, and probably was destined for big things. He's big thing however was to get entangled by Mordremoth, consumed and then being forced to sacrifice himself to end the Jungle Dragon.

Poor guy.

I guess life teaches us lemons....or consuming tentacles tormenting your mind.We all belong in vicious circles of our personalities wether we RP or just roam.I hope the lore will stay as powerful as the tears I cried for aurene.

! For Scarlet... I guess she is still somewhere at Fractals so still somewhat annoying and therefor still to our attention! but don't forget a guy having two things bind together have a very powerful Norn who'd go bald for Eir.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Trahearne praised the PC all the time. I did not get the hate.

Did Claw Island with a new character last night. Yeah, Trahearne talks a lot. And then it hit me:

he is extremely lonely. He talks a lot because the PC is the only one listening and he has to get a lot of stuff off his chest.

Poor guy. He was always nice, he always praised and lauded the PC. When he was not sure what to do, he asked the experts: that is extremely good leadership.

And all he got was hatred :/

Valid point. Look at any introvert (myself included) and get them talking to a person they feel comfortable with about a subject they care for? We can talk for hours.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing"

Trahearne is... a skilled scholar with knowledge on the Risen and Zhaitan *formed from years of study on them, and traveling to Orr several times), and a pretty good necromancer (formed from years of practice as he is a firstborn).

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

What things does he do that other characters can't?

Summon lots of minions? Oh you mean the thing we explicit see a random necromancer do in an event (summons 3-5 flesh golems at once, who talk, and promptly resummons any that die?)? The thing that is also explicitly a gameplay related limitation on the player, for balance reasons? (there is no information implying that this feat is unique to these two necromancers, Trahearne and the human, and that the limit is merely a balance thing placed on players. Have you see Gw1 minion masters who could field armies of 30-40 minions at once?)

@"Moonyeti.3296" said:I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

About Braham: I love how people act as if the commander - Braham interactions are wrong and "not like norn" And then promptly forget we are telling a teenager (19 about to be 20ish) who has never adventured before his home was destroyed (his crush literally turns him down and goes with a merchant for the mere fact the merchant has actually explored and wandered the world, while Braham never left Craigstead), and when he was just reconnecting with his mom, his mom died, and who literally holds an item that can make his legend immortal, to turn around and go home and stop.

"Yes, let's tell the grieving Norn who NOBODY supported and helped grieve (Literally, Rox went to try to find Garm, everybody else went and did their own things until the funeral. Nobody ever talked to or hung out with Braham after we left the jungle), to give up this scroll that can crack the tooth of Jormag, making his legend (and by extension, his mother's) legend completely immortal, And possibly lift up every Norn's morale incredibly by news of the tooth being cracked, to just give up and go home because we said so."

"Wait, he reacted badly? WHY?"

I saw Braham's reactions as being quite normal for a Norn. He's A: Never really adventured until joining the commander. B: Always hated his mom for leaving, then later felt smothered in the shadow of her deeds. C: As soon as he reconnected with her, she died. D: Found an artifact that could secure his legacy for all time, and also honor his mother's mission to rid the world of the elder dragons. E: Was promptly told by the commander to F off and come back home, instead of using the artifact. Said commander who promptly after the dragon died and everybody came home, disappeared from his life until the funeral date.

@DiscordOfSound.2190 said:I'm going to chip in on this conversation. First, to put this to rest, if you go through the dialog listed in the wiki through the personal story and interactions with Trahearne, there is 0, ZERO, implication that he accepts or takes credit for victories. At the very least, credit is always centered on the PC, on DE, or the various Pact members involved in sieging Orr. So it is incorrect to assume that Trahearne ever takes the spotlight from the accomplishment of the PC. His role in the matter was to organize the three factions, develop plans of attack with the seated leading parties of each factions, and issue duties. The same as any LT or Commander would do in the US military.

Think of it this way. You, the PC, are a Command Sergeant Major, an NCO. You personally oversee the rest of the soldiers, and lead them. Trahearne is a Colonel, a CO. That is the hierarchy. He devises plans of attack, does the paperwork, and entrusts YOU with the undertaking of missions. And factoring in that it was critical to have an impartial leader, meaning not from one particular group but having worked with them all in the past, Trahearne was a choice candidate. It's not that he wanted the role, he really didn't, but necessity over ruled and he took the mantle. Not only that, he did harbor some of the most intricate knowledge of Orr, making him the expert in that matter. So you have to ask yourself, would you rather have this turn into Age of Empires with you sending out the troops, or was it better that you personally lead in all the missions?

I think he takes credit in one case, which was when a risen mesmer had basically discredited him and the commander in some manner. And even then he literally says he's taking credit purely because he has to in order to keep the Pact together.

trahearne handled the politics and paperwork, and trusted the commander to handle 100% of the field work alongside the Pact.

if braham is 19 why the hell is the commander even bringing him along xD pretty sure there's more qualified ppl out there

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  • 2 weeks later...

@dikkejonko.5803 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Trahearne praised the PC all the time. I did not get the hate.

Did Claw Island with a new character last night. Yeah, Trahearne talks a lot. And then it hit me:

he is extremely lonely. He talks a lot because the PC is the only one listening and he has to get a lot of stuff off his chest.

Poor guy. He was always nice, he always praised and lauded the PC. When he was not sure what to do, he asked the experts: that is extremely good leadership.

And all he got was hatred :/

Valid point. Look at any introvert (myself included) and get them talking to a person they feel comfortable with about a subject they care for? We can talk for hours.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing"

Trahearne is... a skilled scholar with knowledge on the Risen and Zhaitan *formed from years of study on them, and traveling to Orr several times), and a pretty good necromancer (formed from years of practice as he is a firstborn).

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:His "flaws" come off less as actual character flaws and more like minor things in a vain attempt to make us feel sorry for the character, it isn't until HoT that they have him fail so they could get rid of the failed character he was. He's shown to do plenty of things that other characters in the setting can't, too. Both of these are Mary Sue traits. The lack of any real personality or being shallow as a character is also a trait, but it's clear you won't accept anything below "literally invincible and godlike" as a Mary Sue despite it having more of a range than that.

What things does he do that other characters can't?

Summon lots of minions? Oh you mean the thing we explicit see a random necromancer do in an event (summons 3-5 flesh golems at once, who talk, and promptly resummons any that die?)? The thing that is also explicitly a gameplay related limitation on the player, for balance reasons? (there is no information implying that this feat is unique to these two necromancers, Trahearne and the human, and that the limit is merely a balance thing placed on players. Have you see Gw1 minion masters who could field armies of 30-40 minions at once?)

@"Moonyeti.3296" said:I agree completely about Braham, It felt very un norn like to mourn that way. I heard a lot of people say "he is a teen that lost his mother, it makes sense" but that would be true if he were a human, or not already established as being pretty typical norn as far as cultural values. To me, as a norn he was disrespecting his mother's legend by acting that way. Anet goes out of their way to say that Norn are not just big humans, but they constantly ignore Norn specific culture and just go for cliche, relatable writing, making them come off as essentially just big humans.

About Braham: I love how people act as if the commander - Braham interactions are wrong and "not like norn" And then promptly forget we are telling a teenager (19 about to be 20ish) who has never adventured before his home was destroyed (his crush literally turns him down and goes with a merchant for the mere fact the merchant has actually explored and wandered the world, while Braham never left Craigstead), and when he was just reconnecting with his mom, his mom died, and who literally holds an item that can make his legend immortal, to turn around and go home and stop.

"Yes, let's tell the grieving Norn who NOBODY supported and helped grieve (Literally, Rox went to try to find Garm, everybody else went and did their own things until the funeral. Nobody ever talked to or hung out with Braham after we left the jungle), to give up this scroll that can crack the tooth of Jormag, making his legend (and by extension, his mother's) legend completely immortal, And possibly lift up every Norn's morale incredibly by news of the tooth being cracked, to just give up and go home because we said so."

"Wait, he reacted badly? WHY?"

I saw Braham's reactions as being quite normal for a Norn. He's A: Never really adventured until joining the commander. B: Always hated his mom for leaving, then later felt smothered in the shadow of her deeds. C: As soon as he reconnected with her, she died. D: Found an artifact that could secure his legacy for all time, and also honor his mother's mission to rid the world of the elder dragons. E: Was promptly told by the commander to F off and come back home, instead of using the artifact. Said commander who promptly after the dragon died and everybody came home, disappeared from his life until the funeral date.

@DiscordOfSound.2190 said:I'm going to chip in on this conversation. First, to put this to rest, if you go through the dialog listed in the wiki through the personal story and interactions with Trahearne, there is 0, ZERO, implication that he accepts or takes credit for victories. At the very least, credit is always centered on the PC, on DE, or the various Pact members involved in sieging Orr. So it is incorrect to assume that Trahearne ever takes the spotlight from the accomplishment of the PC. His role in the matter was to organize the three factions, develop plans of attack with the seated leading parties of each factions, and issue duties. The same as any LT or Commander would do in the US military.

Think of it this way. You, the PC, are a Command Sergeant Major, an NCO. You personally oversee the rest of the soldiers, and lead them. Trahearne is a Colonel, a CO. That is the hierarchy. He devises plans of attack, does the paperwork, and entrusts YOU with the undertaking of missions. And factoring in that it was critical to have an impartial leader, meaning not from one particular group but having worked with them all in the past, Trahearne was a choice candidate. It's not that he wanted the role, he really didn't, but necessity over ruled and he took the mantle. Not only that, he did harbor some of the most intricate knowledge of Orr, making him the expert in that matter. So you have to ask yourself, would you rather have this turn into Age of Empires with you sending out the troops, or was it better that you personally lead in all the missions?

I think he takes credit in one case, which was when a risen mesmer had basically discredited him and the commander in some manner. And even then he literally says he's taking credit purely because he has to in order to keep the Pact together.

trahearne handled the politics and paperwork, and trusted the commander to handle 100% of the field work alongside the Pact.

if braham is 19 why the hell is the commander even bringing him along xD pretty sure there's more qualified ppl out there

What about Taimi?!?! When we first start bringing her along she is skipping school half the time to come adventure with us! The commander is running a child brainwashing cult I think

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@Drizzt.1796 said:

@anninke.7469 said:Well, if the commander is a sylvari, they're about 4 during LS3, so...

Sylvari characters have knowledge about the world from past generations so...

...each sylvari has maybe 25 years of knowledge I guess?

They have knowledge, yes. But they still need to gain experience and grow up emotionally. They're just a bunch of adult-bodied know-too-much children if you listen to them for a bit. And if we talk about Braham, I don't think lack of knowledge is the problem people have with him.

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@"thepenmonster.3621" said:After playing some Orr episodes yesterday I can see why some people hate the Big T.

He really can't stop himself from using Calabog's knock back when someone else is in melee. Imagine if he had a longbow too...

He'd be a "range-o-mancer" then.

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  • 2 weeks later...

For me Trahearne was fine, not a show-stealer, but quite a humble heart. His meekness was actually his strenght, and its an old saying; "when im weak, then i am strong". This is revealed in his fruitful progression from down south to top of the food chain. In every legend and heroic story, the last man standing is not a big ego, but quite the opposite. History speaks for itself, what comes to mind is WW2 heroes, that never boasted or demanded anything for their heroic acts. All we know of their deeds, is from people that held them in praise and respect for what they did. Such is with Trahearne, even after the big victory, he was not there to claim the laurels, but was sitting alone; we brought him out to the cheering crowd.

The writing was on point, i wouldn't change a thing about the Trahearne's script, tho i wish we could have more backstory on our races. As a norn, would have appreciated alot more norse background. It matters alot for immersion, i love to sink in the story and character as much as possible.

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Trahearne's issues are simply:

1) He is a complete non-factor in 4/5 races Personal Story until Claw Island where he'll randomly pop up and insert himself into the limelight.

2) The post Claw Island Core Personal Story is so dumb.

In regards to issue 1, if he had showed up literally at all before Claw Island, say during the Order quests to highlight how he is familiar with the Order representatives, it would have relieved the issue of how, unless you're Sylvari, you have no idea who he is only that literally every military personnel scoffs at him trying to offer military advice with 0 experience (That said, whatshisface the guy he was arguing with when you first meet him was a complete tool, ignoring literally the advice of the leader of the frontlines while he was sat doing f all during the attack)

In regards to issue 2, Trahearne should not have become leader of the Pact. He should have been 2nd in command as a valuable advisor given his knowledge of Orr and Zhaitan. In addition, Trahearne, who upon becoming leader of the Pact because he has no Order affiliations, should not have made the PC who is a member of an Order 2nd in command (We should have simply been the representative of our chosen Order instead of bland human male, Norn lady or scary Asura girl)

These 2 blunders mean that the top 2 positions in this military organization have a shared military experience of 0. No wonder there were heavy casualties jfc...

The next blunder was how irrelevant the Orders were after Claw Island. There was no more options to take a Vigil approach to things (Supported by Order of Whispers and the Priory) and highlight the virtues of jolly co-operation... No there was only "Go smash this thing" or "Go smash that thing" with a sprinkling of "CHARR WOO! EXPLOSIONS!". It felt a lot like undermining the entire purpose of the three orders working together when the end result is essentially just Vigil tactics only with NPC's wearing different outfits.

The final blunder was the final mission. With the Zhaitan fight being not only without Trahearne (Who had been the star of the story since Claw Island as it was all about him fulfilling his Wyld Hunt with his magical super sword of amazingness, being supported by the PC who's goal or "Wyld Hunt" of sorts was to kill Zhaitan - Leading to the comments Trahearne makes when he goes to cleanse the Source of Orr about how it was fitting that it was "Just the two of us"), but also being a lame sequence of shooting cannons.

Meaning that when Zhaitan was dead and we went back to Fort Trinity, everyone was cheering for US, despite all that we did was shoot a cannon a bunch. Anyone could have done that. Heck, Zojja was stood next to me doing naff all while I was shooting Zhaitan with a cannon, she could have done it. When it really should have been Trahearne and the PC who fought together to take down Zhaitan, just like we'd fought together to cleanse the Source of Orr, just like we'd been prophesized by the Pale Tree to cleanse Orr and beat Zhaitan together, just like we as two individuals with absolutely no military experience had been thrust into leading a large scale military operation together.

After the core PS, Trahearne takes such a small role in things that he's not really a problem. He's just there every now and then to represent the Pact given that we left and thus can no longer do so... (Though, honestly, he shouldn't have been leading in the first place to allow him to do something else after Zhaitan was dead such as becoming a member of Baby's Edge or becoming involved with trying to help Sylvari whom are succumbing to Mordremoth's call. Or heck, maybe he could join an order such as the Vigil and get some training on how to swing his stupid magical super sword of amazingness?)

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@Drizzt.1796 said:

@"Jheuloh.4109" said:On one hand, Trahearne does give the player credit where it's due. On the other hand, he's basically the narrative face of increased scope. Not bad on its own but necessarily hit or miss by tying the shift to a character's personality.

LMAO

Gw2 starts with "Lets get the band back together boys!"

Then the power level skyrockets at Claw Island and the story starts turning into the development of Cool Magical Things

Except with Treesus it was some weird half way world between that and "Grow a spine and some powers, son!"

Super exhausted story arc that didn't break the mould even a little bit. Which for how front and center that was, made me want to eat my non existent hat.

I'm trying to be even handed with my posts for the sake of discussion but full disclosure - at the end of HoT I was one of the psychos sharpening the veggie knife. :P

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Idk. I played personal story as non-Sylvari and never understood Trahearne hate. For me he was introduced as this wise necromancer who studied Orr for years in pursuit of his Wyld Hunt and did all the knowledge-gathering work for you to show up and only do the 'action' part. I really liked him and I feel that he was adding a lot to the feeling that defeating Zhaitan was this big, coordinated campaign, and not "yeah, commander and his party went through the forest and kicked the Mordremoth's butt" feeling I got from HoT. It was very strange way for him to go unfortunately.

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But now, with the game developing and getting better (imo) looking back Trahearne's death feels kind of bad. Almost like the community killed him, instead of Mordremoth.Well, the community did kill him. We killed him both mentally ( by expressing our disdain for him in the forums) and physically in game, especially if you played through the HoT story . Your character delivers the final blow to him. So, in a matter of speaking we most certainly did kill him.

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I think people who like him aren't really bothered by the big story beats and are more focused on the moment to moment interactions. Treesus gives credit where it's due. If he were a real person he would actually be good company, much more agreeable than the drama-mongers of Destiny's Edge.

Flipside is that he may come off too dry in the very theatrics driven story of Gw2. I'd have to play it again to really refresh myself on this but I don't recall him even having much in the way of sly banter or dry humour that would've been perfect for how Trahearne carried himself. Or maybe cranking up silly awkwardness.

"Wait what?" - Some NPC after hearing something that sounds like an innuendo.

"No wait uhh I didn't mean it like that!" - Treesus, upon realizing how he just came off

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