The Path of Failure in Story & Lore [PoF Spoilers]

Feanor.2358 · October 4, 2017

@Djinn.9245 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@Gray.8635 said:Feanor The Zhaitan and Mordremoth had good stories. Preference and good story telling are two different things in my opinion. Zhaitan was the first time in guild wars lore we were actually going to face a dragon. Everything was new and the story was done very well. Mordremoth was too. Even the living story for Mordremoth with Scarlett was even tied in well and woven nicely. Story is just so important for an MMO in my opinion, especially one as unique as this one. Out of every MMO that is out there I have played this is by far the most story driven one I personally have ever came across. I think its also the same for many others, because when people found out that more story would be available in raids, so many were frustrated with Anet because of the difficulty when they first started. For me raiding is always about the story and the challenge. That bit of story after a boss kill from exploring, or when the final wing boss is killed is what makes this game so... good. =)

I fail to see the great storytelling in the previous stories. It had pretty much one strong moment, Tybalt's sacrifice (a keg of apple cider in your honour, good sir. You shall be always remembered). As far as storytelling goes, though, PoF has beaten it. It featured the death of the player character. Yes, nobody expected to stay dead. Yes, it has been done before. Nevertheless.

P.S. On the topic of story-driven MMOs - SW:TOR. In general, when it comes to story and RPG, BioWare are the guys to look at.

Sorry, the death of the PC was a gimmick to illicit exactly the reaction you apparently had.

Everything in every story is a gimmick to provoke a reaction in the reader/viewer. That's the whole point of telling a story. That the story succeeded in provoking the reaction it was intended to only means it isn't bad. :)

otto.5684 · October 4, 2017

I was also very disappointed with the story.

Balthazar was nothing more than Scopy Doo villain, and not a good one at that. One dimensional and uninteresting. In addition, in the first time we face him he knocks as down and kills Vlast. How did we manage to easily in the end of PoF? Nothing changed..

The whole scene with Kromir and was.. stupid. "Hey look I have this cool library, and I together with other deities are leaving cuz after we kittened everything up with a rouge deity and awakening elder dragons, we will leave you pity sentient races to fix it. You have got to believe in yourselves. Bye."

Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies. I did not expect them all to be stock villains serving master boring villain Palawa Joko. What are the Awakened ? How do they control Elona, which supposedly consist of three nation states of Istan, Vabbi and Kourna. We only see Vabbi and it was nothing more than bunch of small palaces. As for the Awakened, any of the Tyrian nations and the Pact have military that is hundreds of times bigger and more advanced. How the hell do the control Elona?! In addition, neither Istan, Vabbi and/or Kourna have any military? I have seen none in the story or Sun Spears. Just to be clear, I did not expect to necessarily see things to "scale", but compare how much we see of the Awakened military to the Charr as an example. The Charr can conquer the entity of Elona in under a week.

And the part where we look like the Archon was simply stupid. Changing how you look in GW universe is a common thing, even in Elona. There is no way there is not any fail safe to detect that. What is even more stupid, I supposedly represent Palawa Joko, with no proof except... my word. GENIUS. I kid you not, if people in Tyria are that kitten stupid, I could take control of Tyria, Elona, Cantha, the pact and everything else in under a month.

Oh ya, the mist now is the new vacation spot, cuz apparently any and everyone can go there at will now!

Lastly, the dumbest thing in the entire story, my character being neo-Jesus. Common writers, you cannot be that blank that you have to kitten use genesis in GW2. At least Jesus was revived by God. My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

It is terrible, just terrible, all across.

The only redeeming quality was dialogue. Canach and Rytlock dialogue, in particular, was fun.

It boggles my mind that someone okayed the PoF story to be released to player base the way it is.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 · October 4, 2017

@otto.5684 said:My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

Well, the Eater of Souls arrived in the Domain of the Lost shortly after Balthazar departure, so it's normal that no-one thought of that before.

Feanor.2358 · October 4, 2017

Um...

@otto.5684 said:Balthazar was nothing more than Scopy Doo villain, and not a good one at that. One dimensional and uninteresting. In addition, in the first time we face him he knocks as down and kills Vlast. How did we manage to easily in the end of PoF? Nothing changed..

Three things changed.

Aurene. Yes, Vlast was there, but the Commander isn't his champion and they didn't share a bond like with Aurene. Plus, Vlast was already defeated when we got there.
Kralkatorrik. Being busy attacking an Elder Dragon has got to count for something.
Sohotin. We don't know much about the sword, but one thing is for certain - it is ridiculously powerful.

@otto.5684 said:The whole scene with Kromir and was.. stupid. "Hey look I have this cool library, and I together with other deities are leaving cuz after we kittened everything up with a rouge deity and awakening elder dragons, we will leave you pity sentient races to fix it. You have got to believe in yourselves. Bye."

What kind of story would "fine, we'll fix that for you since you insist that much... eh, I suppose I'll drink my morning coffee later" be?

@otto.5684 said:Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies. I did not expect them all to be stock villains serving master boring villain Palawa Joko. What are the Awakened ? How do they control Elona, which supposedly consist of three nation states of Istan, Vabbi and Kourna. We only see Vabbi and it was nothing more than bunch of small palaces. As for the Awakened, any of the Tyrian nations and the Pact have military that is hundreds of times bigger and more advanced. How the hell do the control Elona?! In addition, neither Istan, Vabbi and/or Kourna have any military? I have seen none in the story or Sun Spears. Just to be clear, I did not expect to necessarily see things to "scale", but compare how much we see of the Awakened military to the Charr as an example. The Charr can conquer the entity of Elona in under a week.

It was explicitly said there's a different culture out there. Just as you enter the Domain of Vabbi in the story. The talk about how people live together with the Awakened and consider it an honor to be chosen for Awakening is exactly what you're asking about. Clearly there's more to the Awakened than being just a horde of villain minions. I don't know how much detail there is past the story, I haven't explored Vabbi yet.

@otto.5684 said:Oh ya, the mist now is the new vacation spot, cuz apparently any and everyone can go there at will now!

Protagonists aren't any and everyone. Following the same logic you could say "any and everyone can kill an elder dragon at will now". Not quite so.

@otto.5684 said:Lastly, the dumbest thing in the entire story, my character being neo-Jesus. Common writers, you cannot be that blank that you have to kitten use genesis in GW. At least Jesus was revived by God. My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

Being revived by a generic omnipotent deity isn't a big deal. Having the will and resolve to risk your own afterlife, for all eternity, is so much more meaningful.

The rest I agree with. There were weak points in the story. Like in any story, I guess. My only real gripe is with Balthazar being too much of a generic super-villain.

Sir Vincent III.1286 · October 4, 2017

@otto.5684 said:Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies.

See...this is a very good example of why people are disappointed. They have this high standard bias going into the game, which is based on something they've imagined rather than accepting what is. Palawa Joko has always been a very boring character so no difference there. He's a weasel who grovel under Ossa before sealing him under a big rock. What's hard to believe is, him overcoming the Sunspears as a prelude to GW2 because the heroes left Elona unified and strong. On top of that, the Dervish can plow through Joko's army -- but here we are.

otto.5684 · October 4, 2017

@Feanor.2358 said:Um...
@otto.5684 said:Balthazar was nothing more than Scopy Doo villain, and not a good one at that. One dimensional and uninteresting. In addition, in the first time we face him he knocks as down and kills Vlast. How did we manage to easily in the end of PoF? Nothing changed..

Three things changed.

Aurene. Yes, Vlast was there, but the Commander isn't his champion and they didn't share a bond like with Aurene. Plus, Vlast was already defeated when we got there.
Kralkatorrik. Being busy attacking an Elder Dragon has got to count for something.
Sohotin. We don't know much about the sword, but one thing is for certain - it is ridiculously powerful.

@otto.5684 said:The whole scene with Kromir and was.. stupid. "Hey look I have this cool library, and I together with other deities are leaving cuz after we kittened everything up with a rouge deity and awakening elder dragons, we will leave you pity sentient races to fix it. You have got to believe in yourselves. Bye."

What kind of story would "fine, we'll fix that for you since you insist that much... eh, I suppose I'll drink my morning coffee later" be?

@otto.5684 said:Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies. I did not expect them all to be stock villains serving master boring villain Palawa Joko. What are the Awakened ? How do they control Elona, which supposedly consist of three nation states of Istan, Vabbi and Kourna. We only see Vabbi and it was nothing more than bunch of small palaces. As for the Awakened, any of the Tyrian nations and the Pact have military that is hundreds of times bigger and more advanced. How the hell do the control Elona?! In addition, neither Istan, Vabbi and/or Kourna have any military? I have seen none in the story or Sun Spears. Just to be clear, I did not expect to necessarily see things to "scale", but compare how much we see of the Awakened military to the Charr as an example. The Charr can conquer the entity of Elona in under a week.

It was explicitly said there's a different culture out there. Just as you enter the Domain of Vabbi in the story. The talk about how people live together with the Awakened and consider it an honor to be chosen for Awakening is exactly what you're asking about. Clearly there's more to the Awakened than being just a horde of villain minions. I don't know how much detail there is past the story, I haven't explored Vabbi yet.

@otto.5684 said:Oh ya, the mist now is the new vacation spot, cuz apparently any and everyone can go there at will now!

Protagonists aren't any and everyone. Following the same logic you could say "any and everyone can kill an elder dragon at will now". Not quite so.

@otto.5684 said:Lastly, the dumbest thing in the entire story, my character being neo-Jesus. Common writers, you cannot be that blank that you have to kitten use genesis in GW. At least Jesus was revived by God. My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

Being revived by a generic omnipotent deity isn't a big deal. Having the will and resolve to risk your own afterlife, for all eternity, is so much more meaningful.

The rest I agree with. There were weak points in the story. Like in any story, I guess. My only real gripe is with Balthazar being too much of a generic super-villain.

I am more cynical than most :/, but my character is now the chosen one; an immortal and indestructible being, where is the tension? I can go into detail of why the story does not deliver on creating pacing and tension. Though this was never GW strongest story telling facet, but GW usually presented somewhat logical and convincing story within GW universe, with the main theme that the races and nations put their differences aside and unite against a common enemy (I could swear this sentence was mentioned verbatimly somewhere in GW before). PoF turned this into how my character is super duper special and the only one capable of defeating the one layered villain.

Not a good story.

Pax.3548 · October 4, 2017

@otto.5684 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:Um...
@otto.5684 said:Balthazar was nothing more than Scopy Doo villain, and not a good one at that. One dimensional and uninteresting. In addition, in the first time we face him he knocks as down and kills Vlast. How did we manage to easily in the end of PoF? Nothing changed..

Three things changed.

Aurene. Yes, Vlast was there, but the Commander isn't his champion and they didn't share a bond like with Aurene. Plus, Vlast was already defeated when we got there.
Kralkatorrik. Being busy attacking an Elder Dragon has got to count for something.
Sohotin. We don't know much about the sword, but one thing is for certain - it is ridiculously powerful.

@otto.5684 said:The whole scene with Kromir and was.. stupid. "Hey look I have this cool library, and I together with other deities are leaving cuz after we kittened everything up with a rouge deity and awakening elder dragons, we will leave you pity sentient races to fix it. You have got to believe in yourselves. Bye."

What kind of story would "fine, we'll fix that for you since you insist that much... eh, I suppose I'll drink my morning coffee later" be?

@otto.5684 said:Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies. I did not expect them all to be stock villains serving master boring villain Palawa Joko. What are the Awakened ? How do they control Elona, which supposedly consist of three nation states of Istan, Vabbi and Kourna. We only see Vabbi and it was nothing more than bunch of small palaces. As for the Awakened, any of the Tyrian nations and the Pact have military that is hundreds of times bigger and more advanced. How the hell do the control Elona?! In addition, neither Istan, Vabbi and/or Kourna have any military? I have seen none in the story or Sun Spears. Just to be clear, I did not expect to necessarily see things to "scale", but compare how much we see of the Awakened military to the Charr as an example. The Charr can conquer the entity of Elona in under a week.

It was explicitly said there's a different culture out there. Just as you enter the Domain of Vabbi in the story. The talk about how people live together with the Awakened and consider it an honor to be chosen for Awakening is exactly what you're asking about. Clearly there's more to the Awakened than being just a horde of villain minions. I don't know how much detail there is past the story, I haven't explored Vabbi yet.

@otto.5684 said:Oh ya, the mist now is the new vacation spot, cuz apparently any and everyone can go there at will now!

Protagonists aren't any and everyone. Following the same logic you could say "any and everyone can kill an elder dragon at will now". Not quite so.

@otto.5684 said:Lastly, the dumbest thing in the entire story, my character being neo-Jesus. Common writers, you cannot be that blank that you have to kitten use genesis in GW. At least Jesus was revived by God. My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

Being revived by a generic omnipotent deity isn't a big deal. Having the will and resolve to risk your own afterlife, for all eternity, is so much more meaningful.

The rest I agree with. There were weak points in the story. Like in any story, I guess. My only real gripe is with Balthazar being too much of a generic super-villain.

I am more cynical than most :/, but my character is now the chosen one; an immortal and indestructible being, where is the tension? I can go into detail of why the story does not deliver on creating pacing and tension. Though this was never GW strongest story telling facet, but GW usually presented somewhat logical and convincing story within GW universe, with the main theme that the races and nations put their differences aside and unite against a common enemy (I could swear this sentence was mentioned verbatimly somewhere in GW before). PoF turned this into how my character is super duper special and the only one capable of defeating the one layered villain.

Not a good story.

well, in HoT the spotlight seemed to belong to the sylvari, PoF seems to be human centered, I bet eventually we'll deal with the inquest, at that time the asura will be the center of the show,, the same with the norn and svanir and the charr lands. This is usually because the land where the expansions are set belongs or at least is near to one of the races, elona was known to be populated by humans, like cantha (if we ever return there, be ready to see humans everywhere), so why the surprise?.

The pact commander, since the zhaitan war, was known to be a special individual, but don't be fooled, he/she is still mortal, we died in this expansion, and the only reason we didn't die again in the last fight was aurene and the powered up sohothin. We defeated zhaitan, mordremoth and now balthazar, but in neither of these fights we won by ourselves, we always had help:

1-The pact and destiny edge in the fight with zhaitan.2-The pact again and our newest companions (the pact fought mordy outside while we battled the dragon's mind inside the dream).2-The awakened, some of dragon's watch members and aurene (the awakened and our companions kept the forged from overwhelming us while aurene helped us directly in the fight).

In the end, it may seen like our commander is all powerful, but we are not.

Athrenn.9468 · October 4, 2017

I agree with Thalador that the writers have really failed to pay off the tone promises that they began GW2 with.

From an early GuildMag interview:

GuildMag (Draxynnic): Okay, so moving onto some questions regarding Zhaitan: Between some of the cinematics we see near the end of the personal story there’s quite a transmutation between those cinematics and his final form that we see in the Arah story dungeon. Was this simply a design decision to better reflect the feeling of Zhaitan’s necrotic powers and make him more of a Lovecraftian entity or is it the result of his weakening throughout Orr, such as being starved, taking their toll on his body?
ArenaNet (Jeff Grubb) : Part of it too is that we evolved – behind the screen, we evolved as we moved forward as well. We did the early first (image of) Zhaitan awakening beneath the ocean. We were going that direction – we always had an Elder God feel to it, but it really crystallised around Kekei’s art piece, were we had a dragon that breathed dragon heads – that then breathed undead. Now, this is cool, this is different, this is what we really want to get to with the idea of making them, Elder Dragons, more alien, more outside the realm of your traditional, Glint-style dragon.

Except...there's nothing alien about them. The Elder Gods of Lovecraftian fiction are living mysteries, unknowable by the limited capacity of human thought. Their very existence is so indescribable that humans go insane trying to comprehend them and anyone who delves too deep into their mysterious existence is negatively affected, their minds warped by the knowledge.

An Elder Dragon is nothing like an Elder God. An Elder Dragon is a big apex predator that consumes magic. There is absolutely nothing unknowable or alien about that; if you can imagine a gigantic lizard made out of particle effects then you can imagine an Elder Dragon. What do they want? They just want to eat, and our magic is their food. Furthermore, did I mention the part where they are nothing like Elder Gods?

Zhaitan: Shot down by big airship guns.Mordremoth: Beaten to death inside his own mind.Primordus & Jormag: Put to sleep by Taimi ex machina; two dragons for the price of one macguffin

The writers really need to decide what tone they want to set for the story because they keep flip-flopping back and forth between, "They're like Elder Gods, more powerful than the Tyrian pantheon and unknowable, mysterious entities," and, "They're big sleepy lizards that eat magic." Just when we thought we could kill them all and be done with them, the writers just had to draw out the plot even more by going, "Oh no! Now we can't kill them anymore or else the whole world is going to explode."

Does anyone else see this as a cheap ploy to make the Elder Dragon narrative last even longer after they realized that killing them all one by one was going to be so boring and predictable? I swear the only reason they brought Balthazar back was that they needed Kralkatorrik to absorb a god's power so that we would finally take him seriously.

Ironically, the Tyrian pantheon would have been the perfect hook that the writers could have used to pay off on their initial tone promises which hinted at mindblowing cosmic mysteries. (That is quite literally what Jeff Grubb suggested they were initially aiming for.) Instead, they sacrificed a god on the altar of the Elder Dragon narrative and now we're back to fighting large apex predators.

This is why people such as myself are unsatisfied with the narrative. If the writers set the tone of the story and then fail to deliver on their unspoken promises then people will notice and they will not be happy. Audiences do not enjoy feeling lied to; that is a very basic lesson of writing methodology that any expert writer should know. If the first act of your story says, "This is a story about the resurrection of a mursaat named Lazarus and the reemergence of the White Mantle," but then in Act 3 you go, "Just kidding! It was actually about Balthazar all along and Lazarus was dead the whole time and had no knowledge of what was going on!" ...Well, that's one major lie right there.

As a writer, you are the god of this setting and the audience's perception of what is possible in this world that you have created is dictated by how much you reveal. By building the story up in one direction then suddenly changing it, what you really did was cheat the audience out of their payoff. (And yes, once a writer makes promises to the reader they do owe them a payoff because that's how you build trust and a long-standing fanbase. Simply put, it would be a smart business decision.)

Makai.3429 · October 5, 2017

Excellent summation of Guild Wars' equivalent to Rogue One.

Feanor.2358 · October 5, 2017

@otto.5684 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:Um...
@otto.5684 said:Balthazar was nothing more than Scopy Doo villain, and not a good one at that. One dimensional and uninteresting. In addition, in the first time we face him he knocks as down and kills Vlast. How did we manage to easily in the end of PoF? Nothing changed..

Three things changed.

Aurene. Yes, Vlast was there, but the Commander isn't his champion and they didn't share a bond like with Aurene. Plus, Vlast was already defeated when we got there.
Kralkatorrik. Being busy attacking an Elder Dragon has got to count for something.
Sohotin. We don't know much about the sword, but one thing is for certain - it is ridiculously powerful.

@otto.5684 said:The whole scene with Kromir and was.. stupid. "Hey look I have this cool library, and I together with other deities are leaving cuz after we kittened everything up with a rouge deity and awakening elder dragons, we will leave you pity sentient races to fix it. You have got to believe in yourselves. Bye."

What kind of story would "fine, we'll fix that for you since you insist that much... eh, I suppose I'll drink my morning coffee later" be?

@otto.5684 said:Palawa Joko and Awakened were another disappointment.. I expected interesting race with interesting different back grounds and ideologies. I did not expect them all to be stock villains serving master boring villain Palawa Joko. What are the Awakened ? How do they control Elona, which supposedly consist of three nation states of Istan, Vabbi and Kourna. We only see Vabbi and it was nothing more than bunch of small palaces. As for the Awakened, any of the Tyrian nations and the Pact have military that is hundreds of times bigger and more advanced. How the hell do the control Elona?! In addition, neither Istan, Vabbi and/or Kourna have any military? I have seen none in the story or Sun Spears. Just to be clear, I did not expect to necessarily see things to "scale", but compare how much we see of the Awakened military to the Charr as an example. The Charr can conquer the entity of Elona in under a week.

It was explicitly said there's a different culture out there. Just as you enter the Domain of Vabbi in the story. The talk about how people live together with the Awakened and consider it an honor to be chosen for Awakening is exactly what you're asking about. Clearly there's more to the Awakened than being just a horde of villain minions. I don't know how much detail there is past the story, I haven't explored Vabbi yet.

@otto.5684 said:Oh ya, the mist now is the new vacation spot, cuz apparently any and everyone can go there at will now!

Protagonists aren't any and everyone. Following the same logic you could say "any and everyone can kill an elder dragon at will now". Not quite so.

@otto.5684 said:Lastly, the dumbest thing in the entire story, my character being neo-Jesus. Common writers, you cannot be that blank that you have to kitten use genesis in GW. At least Jesus was revived by God. My character is revived by my soul killing a Soul Eater?! And no one in the mist though of that before?!

Being revived by a generic omnipotent deity isn't a big deal. Having the will and resolve to risk your own afterlife, for all eternity, is so much more meaningful.

The rest I agree with. There were weak points in the story. Like in any story, I guess. My only real gripe is with Balthazar being too much of a generic super-villain.

I am more cynical than most :/, but my character is now the chosen one; an immortal and indestructible being, where is the tension? I can go into detail of why the story does not deliver on creating pacing and tension. Though this was never GW strongest story telling facet, but GW usually presented somewhat logical and convincing story within GW universe, with the main theme that the races and nations put their differences aside and unite against a common enemy (I could swear this sentence was mentioned verbatimly somewhere in GW before). PoF turned this into how my character is super duper special and the only one capable of defeating the one layered villain.

Not a good story.

It's a video game. The player character has always been immortal and indestructible, it is one in almost every game, save a few uber-hardcore games featuring nonsense as permanent character death. Going through a revival in the story doesn't change that fact even a little bit. If anything, it's as far as you can go, as a game story writer, to convince your players your character can actually die and there are powers greater than him/her in the world.

I don't see how PoF makes the player character any more special than he/she already is. It was the super duper special Commander who was the only one capable of uniting the three Orders and ensuring victory over Zaithan. It took the super duper special Commander to take down Scarlet. It was the super duper special Commander who was chosen as a champion to the not-yet-hatched Aurene. It was the Commander who (through a blatant deus ex machina) was able to enter Mordremoth's mind and defeat him. Mind you, the mind is kind of Mordremoth's superpower. So I don't think PoF is any different in that regard. Yeah, your character is the protagonist in the story and it makes him special. Get over it.

Luindu.2418 · October 5, 2017

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
@Thalador.4218 said:Balthazar in his entirety (personality, character, principles)Getting **** on by a bunch of people you considered your closest friends changes people? Who knew! Also, we never met Balthazar in Guild Wars 1, so we have no idea what his personality was outside of second or third hand accounts by his devoted followers... who are OFC inherently biased in favor of their god.

Ok, even if we don't know him in person/¿god? we can saw some details about his behavior that makes us think it:

FoW (Gw1) he doesn't move a finger for fight... he let his armies (and the PC's) do the work. Why he doesn't involve? (like "PoF Balthadon" probably do?)
In the Lore of Gw1:Nightfall, Balthazar agree with the Six plans of "Put Abaddon under arrest", because: ["When Abaddon fell, Balthazar forged the chains that bound the fallen god in the Realm of Torment"](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Balthazar ""When Abaddon fell, Balthazar forged the chains that bound the fallen god in the Realm of Torment"") and then the "Exodus of the Gods" , why Balthazar doesn't go to kill it and absorbs his powers? like he want to do with the ED.

Balthazar as a Gw1 player point of view is an Honored God of War, but as PoF player is a Berserker Guy of Nonsense....

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 5, 2017

@Luindu.2418 said:Balthazar as a Gw1 player point of view is an Honored God of War, but as PoF player is a Berserker Guy of Nonsense....I do hope this was a joke, and that you can actually see the huge difference in these situations.
The FoW battle was among the lesser minions of his enemy, vs the lesser minions of his forces. There was no one there worthy of his power. Had Menzies himself come out to give him a worthy fight, you can bet your sweet bum Balthazar would have been there fighting him one on one.
Abbadon was another situation entirely involving the godly pantheon, their powers, and the rules they had among themselves. Balthazar couldn't just kill Abbadon because Abbadon's power would have had to go somewhere, and there was no worthy vessel to contain it.

The Elder Dragons on the other hand areA. A worthy fight far greater then easily smiting the Priest of Menzies leading the FoW invasion.B. Not gods, so their death wouldn't effect the godly pantheon.

You are comparing apples to oranges m8.

Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 · October 5, 2017

@Luindu.2418 said:
@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
@Thalador.4218 said:Balthazar in his entirety (personality, character, principles)Getting **** on by a bunch of people you considered your closest friends changes people? Who knew! Also, we never met Balthazar in Guild Wars 1, so we have no idea what his personality was outside of second or third hand accounts by his devoted followers... who are OFC inherently biased in favor of their god.

Ok, even if we don't know him in person/¿god? we can saw some details about his behavior that makes us think it:

FoW (Gw1)
he doesn't move a finger for fight... he let his armies (and the PC's) do the work. Why he doesn't involve? (like "PoF Balthadon" probably do?)
In the Lore of Gw1:Nightfall, Balthazar agree with the Six plans of "Put Abaddon under arrest", because: ["When Abaddon fell, Balthazar forged the chains that bound the fallen god in the Realm of Torment"](
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Balthazar
""When Abaddon fell, Balthazar forged the chains that bound the fallen god in the Realm of Torment"") and then the "Exodus of the Gods" , why Balthazar doesn't go to kill it and absorbs his powers? like he want to do with the ED.

Balthazar as a Gw1 player point of view is an Honored God of War, but as PoF player is a Berserker Guy of Nonsense....

Path of Fire doesn't show Balthazar fighting normal foes either. The whole expansion he's seeking for Kralkatorrik and Glint's scions.

Balthazar during Exodus of the Gods was still a God, while Balthazar during Second Exodus of the Gods was stripped of his powers. Different situations, different goals.

Luindu.2418 · October 5, 2017

@"Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324" said:Path of Fire doesn't show Balthazar fighting normal foes either. The whole expansion he's seeking for Kralkatorrik and Glint's scions.
Balthazar during Exodus of the Gods was still a God, while Balthazar during Second Exodus of the Gods was stripped of his powers. Different situations, different goals.

Yes but is his realm, from a "God" (as we saw in PoF) that has a major concern about defeat his enemies, have his home like a mess without moving a finger when he can clean it easily...About Exodus I was talking about the point of leaving Tyria, he's ok with go out without killing his enemy (Abaddon), and the nonsense that i explain down.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:
Abbadon was another situation entirely involving the godly pantheon, their powers, and the rules they had among themselves. Balthazar couldn't just kill Abbadon because Abbadon's power would have had to go somewhere, and there was no worthy vessel to contain it.
The Elder Dragons on the other hand areA. A worthy fight far greater then easily smiting the Priest of Menzies leading the FoW invasion.B. Not gods, so their death wouldn't effect the godly pantheon.
You are comparing apples to oranges m8.

For me this is one of the nonsenses, in Gw1 a human (Kormyr) can absorb a God's Power that can erase the world but a God entity like Balthazar can't?In Gw2, Balthazar haven't problems to kill and absorb ED's but they have more power than Gods?Kormyr, as Koning defend in old forum do it without God's help, I defend that God's help her. On both cases Balthazar's "options" of absorb doesn't make much sense.

P.D.: I try to give you a clue about why I think me and a group of gw1's players must dislike this Balthazar, but if you're ok with "The Big Bad Balthazar"...

Djinn.9245 · October 5, 2017

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:
Abbadon was another situation entirely involving the godly pantheon, their powers, and the rules they had among themselves. Balthazar couldn't just kill Abbadon because Abbadon's power would have had to go somewhere, and there was no worthy vessel to contain it.
The Elder Dragons on the other hand areA. A worthy fight far greater then easily smiting the Priest of Menzies leading the FoW invasion.B. Not gods, so their death wouldn't effect the godly pantheon.
You are comparing apples to oranges m8.

Balthazar apparently doesn't care about the pantheon's rules.
If Balthazar can absorb another being's power, then he could absorb Abaddon's power just as he could absorb a dragon's power.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 5, 2017

@Djinn.9245 said:
Balthazar apparently doesn't care about the pantheon's rules.
If Balthazar can absorb another being's power, then he could absorb Abaddon's power just as he could absorb a dragon's power.
He doesn't care about their rules in regards to Elder Dragons.
He could only absorb the Elder Dragons power because his own godly power was tripped from him. He couldn't have taken Abbadon's power so long as he was still a god because he already had godly power.
@Luindu.2418 said:For me this is one of the nonsenses, in Gw1 a human (Kormyr) can absorb a God's Power that can erase the world but a God entity like Balthazar can't?No, he couldn't, none of the other gods could because they already had godly power to begin with, so they can't take on ANOTHER god's power as well.

That was the whole point of the gods telling the team that they had to make the decision only a mortal could make, which Kormir realized was taking Abbadon's power into herself to stop it from destroying everything. Gods can't take on another god's power because they already have god power, and there is apparently some limit on just how much power you can take on.

Luindu.2418 · October 5, 2017

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
@Djinn.9245 said:
Balthazar apparently doesn't care about the pantheon's rules.
If Balthazar can absorb another being's power, then he could absorb Abaddon's power just as he could absorb a dragon's power.
He doesn't care about their rules in regards to Elder Dragons.
He could only absorb the Elder Dragons power because his own godly power was tripped from him. He couldn't have taken Abbadon's power so logn as he was still a god because he already had godly power.

But as I understand from the instance of Facing the Truth, Balthazar want the power of the ED before the other gods remove his powersThis part:

Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world of further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to.Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods-a raw, primal force without equal.Kormir: Whether he won or lost,-by his death or theirs-Balthazar's ambitions would bring about the end of Tyria.Kormir: The rest of the Six-Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa-reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.Balthazar: If you won't join the fight against the dragons, I'll see you all burn with them!Balthazar: Cowards! ALL OF YOU!Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever-powerless to carry out his plans.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 5, 2017

@Luindu.2418 said:
@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
@Djinn.9245 said:
Balthazar apparently doesn't care about the pantheon's rules.
If Balthazar can absorb another being's power, then he could absorb Abaddon's power just as he could absorb a dragon's power.
He doesn't care about their rules in regards to Elder Dragons.
He could only absorb the Elder Dragons power because his own godly power was tripped from him. He couldn't have taken Abbadon's power so logn as he was still a god because he already had godly power.

But as I understand from the instance of Facing the Truth, Balthazar want the power of the ED before the other gods remove his powersThis part:

Kormir: And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world of further calamity... Or rather, most of us chose to.Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods-a raw, primal force without equal.Kormir: Whether he won or lost,-by his death or theirs-Balthazar's ambitions would bring about the end of Tyria.Kormir: The rest of the Six-Dwayna, Grenth, Melandru, even Lyssa-reached an agreement. Balthazar had to be dealt with.Balthazar: If you won't join the fight against the dragons, I'll see you all burn with them!Balthazar: Cowards! ALL OF YOU!Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever-powerless to carry out his plans.

Where in there do you get that he wanted the Elder Dragon's power at that point? He simply wants to fight them for a good fight... He only wanted their power after the gods stripped him of his so he could gain enough power to kill the gods in revenge.

morsdood.1987 · October 5, 2017

TLDR.

story was good, stop whining.

Athrenn.9468 · October 5, 2017

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Where in there do you get that he wanted the Elder Dragon's power at that point? He simply wants to fight them for a good fight... He only wanted their power after the gods stripped him of his so he could gain enough power to kill the gods in revenge.

That is incorrect, it was revealed by Kormir that Balthazar wanted their power before his divinity was abated by the others.

Balthazar: Cowards. You may flee, but I will not. I do not avoid conflict... I am conflict.Balthazar: The Elder Dragons will die by my hands...and their power will become my power.Kormir: Balthazar was blinded by his pride. The dragons are beyond even the gods-a raw, primal force without equal.Kormir: Whether he won or lost,-by his death or theirs-Balthazar's ambitions would bring about the end of Tyria.

Ranael.6423 · October 5, 2017

@Thalador.4218 said:Please, at least do a bit of research on the wiki before jumping to conclusions! Wiki the Forgotten and 'Study in gold' (especially the latter) on GW2Wiki and you'll see why their sudden reappearance is a huge retcon. When the Last of the Forgotten says he's the last on this world - practically two centuries before the events of Guild Wars 2 and Kralkatorrik's rise in which most of them got branded apparently - we'd better believe that he knows what he is saying. He, the very last Forgotten who speaks about the sunset of his race (on Tyria, at least), says these words as the Exalted are about to enter hibernation in Tarir. Then fast-forward to PoF and there are scores of branded Forgotten slithering around. That makes the guy from 200 years ago a pretty huge liar. Furthermore, if you've read Edge of Destiny, you will remember that Glint was pretty much alone in her Sanctum; no Forgotten stewards in sight. Fast-forward to PoF: suddenly they were there and either died with Glint or got branded... the Forgotten who had anti-corruption magic that could be applied to their stuff and architecture, but not themselves (but this is another retcon unrelated to the ones we are discussing).
Just on that part I think there is one big difference : Kralkatorrik absorbed death spectrum and hence could create branded out of deads...so I was not so surprised to see branded Forgotten, though I would have liked to interact with living ones...And seeing how they incorporated Exalted in the story, I do not think they missed the point that Forgotten should have been dead ... I mean the branded Forgotten boss in Augury Rock being Josso Essher points out to the direction of dead Forgotten being corrupted.

Aaron Ansari.1604 · October 6, 2017

@Ranael.6423 said:
@Thalador.4218 said:Please, at least do a bit of research on the wiki before jumping to conclusions! Wiki the Forgotten and 'Study in gold' (especially the latter) on GW2Wiki and you'll see why their sudden reappearance is a huge retcon. When the Last of the Forgotten says he's the last on this world - practically two centuries before the events of Guild Wars 2 and Kralkatorrik's rise in which most of them got branded apparently - we'd better believe that he knows what he is saying. He, the very last Forgotten who speaks about the sunset of his race (on Tyria, at least), says these words as the Exalted are about to enter hibernation in Tarir. Then fast-forward to PoF and there are scores of branded Forgotten slithering around. That makes the guy from 200 years ago a pretty huge liar. Furthermore, if you've read Edge of Destiny, you will remember that Glint was pretty much alone in her Sanctum; no Forgotten stewards in sight. Fast-forward to PoF: suddenly they were there and either died with Glint or got branded... the Forgotten who had anti-corruption magic that could be applied to their stuff and architecture, but not themselves (but this is another retcon unrelated to the ones we are discussing).
Just on that part I think there is one big difference : Kralkatorrik absorbed death spectrum and hence could create branded out of deads...so I was not so surprised to see branded Forgotten, though I would have liked to interact with living ones...And seeing how they incorporated Exalted in the story, I do not think they missed the point that Forgotten should have been dead ... I mean the branded Forgotten boss in Augury Rock being Josso Essher points out to the direction of dead Forgotten being corrupted.

Except they specifically call out that the Forgotten tried to cleanse Kralkatorrik after he awoke, and had a last stand at Augury Rock when that went south. They were alive for that. Josso Essher was encountered during a mission where the Forgotten were being continuously resurrected, so I figured what they were getting at is someone came along and got them back up after we were done- which makes a deal more sense than the Forgotten willingly inciting us to genocide as part of the Trials of Ascension when they still had more work to do.

On the other hand, the speech from the Last Forgotten talks about Glint as being dead two hundred years before it happened. A Study In Gold has always had considerable timeline issues that weren't sorted out.

draxynnic.3719 · October 6, 2017

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
Literally who cares. Stories that attempt twists for the sake of twists are just M Night Shyamalan tier.

Such as making what appeared to be the return of a character that was set up way back in 2007 actually be the disguise of a god?

@Pax.3548 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Pax.3548 said:
@Thalador.4218 said:
@TriEdge.5149 said:When u buy the expac u are technically buying all the living world content also, so try to see what living world brings us and then comment. That is how I look at things :bleep_bloop:

True, and as I said, I'll still go through all the episodes of Season 4 as it's free. However, just adding one more thought to what Farzo already perfectly explained; in your view, we shouldn't criticize anything that's part of a series (an episode in a TV series, a book or movie in a trilogy, a game/expansion in a franchise), because we haven't seen the whole product. That is wrong. They released a solid expansion with a beginning, middle and end that is great and immersive in its aesthetics, mechanics, music, combat and side-content, but the story and lore-handling failed miserably once again. You have to provide feedback and call out these problems so that they may change direction and fix these issues for future installments. Similarly, their storytelling has been criticized since the vanilla release, which wasn't even that bad to begin with, and instead of getting better, it has slowly but steadily gotten worse and worse with a few rare moments of improvement. It has been brought to their attention many times, during previous releases, yet they continue to pursue this direction blindly.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Whew, that's a long post. However I disagree with the idea that Balthazar is the god of war. According to Kormir, there is still Six gods not counting Balthazar.
Seeing that Rytlock found Balthazar chained meaning he had lost his powers as the god of war, thus he seeks to draw the Dragon's powers, for which Kormir confirmed that this power is greater than the powers of the gods. Balthazar is no longer the same god the humans worshipped in GW1. The fact of the matter is, the humans worshipped the god of war and called him Balthazar because they only know of Balthazar. Just imagine how misinformed and confused the humans are who worshipped Ares not knowing that Kratos already killed him and become the current god of war. This Path of Fire plot closely resembles the God of War game than a rehash of Nightfall. It seems that ArenaNet has created their own "Kratos" who kicked out Balthazar and left him in chains.

I'm genuinely interested; where does she say that there are still Six Gods and not only five? Because there's absolutely 0 evidence for what you're claiming: first off, it seems they can now strip divinity from one of their own without consequences as if it was a simple demotion (a huge retcon in and of itself). Second off, Balthazar's forces in the Fissure of Woe (Devona, his Eternal generals, officers and soldiers who volunteer to be cast into Forged bodies) are still insanely loyal to him. One would think the gods would send out the memo to his forces staging in FoW that there is a new god of war in town taking over regular business after the PoF "Balthazar" disgraced himself with pride, wrath and insanity.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:The problem I see here is that the OP seems to have elevated the GW1 storyline to a higher standard not realizing that the GW2 writing is on par with GW1 as it always has been -- not that great. In other words, the GW1 story paths and timeline were also messed up and immersion breaking. I still don't buy a lot of the plot lines and stories in Gw1, for example, the Charr attacking Orr (lol what? logistically not possible), the survival of Gwen without sympathy from other Charr, and many other. What I'm saying is, I think the OP is forgetting how bad the GW1 storytelling was that the player community has to come up with the lore explanation in an attempt to make sense of it all. In GW2, nothing really has changed, in some cases, they even improved.

Because the stories told in Guild Wars campaigns and expansions were coherent, sensible, meaningful with journeys that were logically built-up and respected the lore established in previous installment and made sense in their connecting of dots from previous games. There were flaws, there was room for improvement, but they actually formed an enjoyable whole that made sense and didn't require to switch your suspension of disbelief into overdrive.

If the examples you brought up showcases the caliber in general of issues you had with the plot and the lore of Guild Wars, then I imagine you're playing GW2 with some very powerful, rose-tinted glasses that screen out all the nonsensical, immersion-breaking solutions, retcons, as well as character and lore butchery that goes on in there.

@Roxhemar.6039 said:I don't know about that wall of text rant. But personally, I freaking loved Path of Fire. That scene where Balthazar launches his god-sword of death at your face and your screen goes full doom style, I loved every second of it. Even if I knew that my character would probably be ok, it was a chance to visit something new and see someplace new - Grenth's domain.

Correction: that wasn't his sword, just a glob of fiery energies he hurled at you.

It's good that you enjoyed it, I'm glad. Sure it is indeed enjoyable when you shut everything out and focus on the plot without bringing in established lore from previous releases.

@Pax.3548 said:You guys sure love to rant, but I'm pretty sure if any of you worked on this game, the story wouldn't be as near as good as you think you would make it.

I'd gladly accept the challenge; believe me, if the possibility presented itself, I'd join the writing team in a heartbeat. And let the Scourge of the Prideful be my judge, but I'm confident I could have done a better job in making the plot of PoF coherent and more believable without having to resort to the use of retcons.

Still, it would be greatly appreciated if you were to put the effort into countering the criticism and the arguments raised by many who didn't enjoy the plot as you did, instead of just berating them as rants.

Yeah, I'm sure the tech and resources would be good enough to fully make that plot you have on your head reality (sarcasm) you can write a story, but it isn't you go make that story into a game, is the team that creates the game itself, the textures, animations, etc. (and that is NOT easy to do). And I won't bother discuss this thread, you can like a story or not its up to you, but most of them are just rants honestly, to straightfoward say it is awful (like it is a fact rather than an opinion) well, I won't discuss with ppl that closed minded, it'll be a waste of time.

Ever come across the concept of jumping the shark?

As soon as we saw Balthazar, my immediate thought was "They'd better have a good motivation for this or it's just going to be Abaddon 2.0". What did we get? Balthaddon having a spat with the other gods that lead to them casting him down, just like the backstory to Nightfall. At least Abaddon actually had a reasonably justified motivation, from a certain point of view (while we joke about him throwing a massive temper tantrum, what actually happened was a series of events: Abaddon's followers started defacing holy sites of the other gods in protest at the weakening of Abaddon's gift, the Forgotten started wiping out the Margonites, and it was his followers being massacred that triggered Abaddon to rebel. Balthaddon, on the other hand, was Flanderised into a glory hound that just wanted a big fight despite knowing how much damage such a battle would do.

The first half of Path of Fire was one predictable disappointment after another. Vlast gets mentioned, then we learn that Balthaddon is after him, and I immediately predicted that our only direct interaction with Vlast would be helplessly watching Balthaddon kill him. I wasn't far wrong (the detail being that I was expecting it to be a 'we arrived too late' rather than a 'Vlast sacrifices himself to save us'. We go to talk to the gods, and I go in expecting exposition and a pep talk rather than them doing anything useful, because heaven forbid that human lore ever be used for anything other than spawning antagonists. Sure enough...

The first actual surprise was that Balthaddon used the Exalted as a template for the Forged... but that was essentially an answer to a question no one asked. The Forgotten were servants to the gods, so it would make sense that the gods likely knew how to make Enchanted at least, and in fact, in Factions we saw a rebelling ex-servant of Grenth create an army of constructs empowered by imprisoned souls. So Balthaddon doing that isn't really a surprise. Balthaddon kidnapping Aurene... also very predictable.

Things improved a little after that, but it does feel a bit like they've run out of good ideas and Flanderised Balthaddon just to make a controversial villain, and then failed to deliver on any meaningful twist after that, instead relying purely on the 'Balthazar is a bad guy now?' to deliver what was possibly the most predictable Guild Wars storyline yet. It's not great when you can predict what's going to happen by asking the question "What is the most disappointing direction they can take this?" Now, it's up to everyone to decide where the shark-jumping moment for them is, and I'm not yet committed to saying for sure that it is now, but, well... let's just say that it's a little unfortunate that this also happens to be an expansion where it's not an uncommon event to literally jump over a (sand) shark when going from one place to another.

As for what else could have been done... just off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of possibilities. One is having the twist being that Lazarus is actually Lazarus (there was precedent that he didn't actually need all of the aspects in order to resurrect). Another is using Menzies instead of Balthaddon. Both of these could have followed pretty close to the story we had, without the effect of relying on Flanderisation to turn a character that some PCs would have chosen as their patron god into a villain. Sure, it wouldn't have had the pathos of being betrayed by one of the gods, but they did so little with that in the end after the initial shock that I don't think it makes up for the "Oh, we needed a villain, so we just took a powerful entity that had some shades of grey and flanderised them into a puppy-kicker" effect.

You speak of abbadon 2.0 when most players in gw2 are new to the franchise, that alone is enough to invalidate most of your arguments regarding "balthaddon", and the rest is just your perspective on the story, I for once didn't think we would get killed, didn't expect aurene to be kidnap that way, was good to know the origin of the forged, all these things you say was "predictable and unneeded" well, I say it was needed for me as well as many other ppl I'm sure.For the rest I repeat my post, when you have limited time to make an expansion, limited bugdet and resources, you can't make a large story that englobes all ideas, you'll have to make the best with what you have.Regarding of your idea, Lazarus couln't have absorved the bloodstone because of the enormous amount of magic that thing has, no mortal can absorb such a thing (that was the only big clue regarding the return of the gods, one person thought of it and theorized a god had returned as only such a being could absorb the magic of a bloodstone), short story: the bloodstone wouldn't have explored if lazarus was real (because that would have killed him and us). Regarding Menzies... we truly don't know much about him, besides being balth's half brother and leader of the shadow army, but would you truly use that character in PoF rather than in a later expansion? I think menzies could be used better at another part of the story, as anet has plenty of room to work on his backstory and personality. Besides we knew since gw1 balth was unstable and not at all good or kind, like most gods of war in mythology (balth resembles a lot to Ares from the greek myth, not in looks, but in personality) AND if you look objectively, he wasn't evil, he was the god of WAR he does war, he revels in the killing, the fighting and conquering, I don't truly think he was evil, only true to his nature, the only problem is that he went rogue and wanted to get revenge on the other gods, and that revenge implied Tyria's destruction. If this last thing wasn't an issue, we wouldn't even bother to fight him.

Just because some people who are 'new to the franchise' haven't seen the old story doesn't mean that you shouldn't come up with a new one rather than rehashing the old one.

On Lazarus: We know that the current mortal races couldn't absorb that sort of magic, but we've known for a long time that the mursaat, while mortal (at least in the sense that they can be killed) are much more magically potent and adept than the current races. Lazarus being able to claim the power of a bloodstone is believable.

On Menzies: Yes, I absolutely WOULD use Menzies now rather than shoehorn Balthazar in as a villain while holding Menzies back for a future expansion. Menzies' main role is as an enemy for Balthazar - with Balthazar now having been turned into dragonfood, there isn't a whole lot of point to returning to Menzies. That's a plot thread which will probably now be left dangling forever, and fighting Menzies is certainly not likely to feel like a big deal after we've already taken his big brother down.

Either of these approaches could be taken with the same use of resources as we saw ingame, or even less, so I don't think your "limited time, budget, and resources" argument applies. Making Menzies, for instance, could possibly have just involved changing some lines and the model of the Big Bad - the overall use of resources would be about the same.

As for the final part of your argument... it was one of my pillars of my argument that Balthazar had his flaws and his shades of grey, but he also had his virtues to go with them. Balthaddon, however, exaggerated those flaws until he was completely defined by them. Which is essentially what the concept of 'flanderisation' in extreme cases rests on: starting with a more nuanced character, and exaggerating one or two personality characteristics at the expense of others to turn them into a one-dimensional caricature of themselves.

Pax.3548 · October 6, 2017

@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
Literally who cares. Stories that attempt twists for the sake of twists are just M Night Shyamalan tier.