The Path of Failure in Story & Lore [PoF Spoilers]

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 6, 2017

@draxynnic.3719 said:Such as making what appeared to be the return of a character that was set up way back in 2007 actually be the disguise of a god?I will be perfectly honest, I think the whole Mursaat thing was stupid, even back in GW1. The Mursaat were only interesting in that they were invisible, and had a cheap trick that could insta-kill the player that required some mcguffin to negate, which is, by all standards of video game design, BAD video game design. Beyond that, the only thing that made the Mursaat seem interesting was rampant fanwanking about how they were behind EVERYTHING because of eye like symbols appearing on stuff.

Balthazar being Lazaraus was the BEST thing to come out of the whole plotline because it **** all over the fan speculation about "MUH MIGHTY MURSAAT!", and Lazarus getting killed in a total side-off mission, of no real importance to the game's narrative, was even better because that is how Lazarus should have been axed back in GW1.

The only good thing the Mursaay ever did in the whole series was Lazarus's snide comment about Livia keeping the same stupid hairstyle all this time, which she REALLY did need to be called out on. Did Braham take tips from her or something? Holy hell.

Malediktus.9250 · October 6, 2017

The whole story in GW2 is a disaster. I will never understand people who play this game for the story only.

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Thank you for putting my thoughts into words. (I tried in another thread which I'll copy here, but still!)
@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I personally did not like the story.It's cool and all, when considered independent from anything else, when put side-by-side with the wider story it does not fit in. There is a lack of internal consistency.What did the Gods do with the power that they drained from Balthazar when they turned on him? It had to go somewhere, like the power from Abaddon when he was defeated/cast down.The Gods 'leaving gone for good' is a cop-out in my opinion. What about Dhuum in the Underworld? Or Menzies? Have the Gods just left those loose ends? Dhuum now free to break free from his prison in the Underworld with Grenth gone? It makes no sense, it is dropping well known and established stories in favour of 'new things' without properly providing closure.Honestly, the reason given for the Exodus is -good-, they cannot fight the Dragons because that would just destroy Tyria from the collateral regardless, and they knew killing the Dragons destroys Tyria. That is a GOOD ENOUGH reason for them to stay distant, only reachable through extreme effort and travelling to the Mist. But to just completely withdraw, can't even be contacted is extremely forced. What about the afterlives and realms they are supposed to manage?The human narrative has been treated unfairly, people go "Oh but GW1 was all about humans now it's time for other things" I would agree with that, but one simple point:The Gods were NOT just unique to Humans. They had a part of the Eternal Alchemy according to the Asura, if they just leave entirely, what then? The Norn consider them Spirits of Action, if not Spirits of the Wild. The Quaggan worship Melandru, the Dwarves worshipped the Six, the Forgotten worked for the Six. Also, did anyone notice the spirits of other races in the Underworld segment of the Story? Yeah. The Underworld is not unique to humans. Something needs to manage it.This is very important: The Gods are not a Human-only thing. They are an integral part of the Guild Wars Universe and ArenaNet can't just strip them away just like that.Also, the Norn still have their Spirits, the Sylvari still have their mother, the Charr haven't needed gods and that's part of their narrative, but for the Humans it very much is part of their narrative and just taking it away or invalidating reeks of "Haha you humans are so stupid putting your faith in beings that just turn their backs on you haha!" It seems -spiteful-, not interesting.I'm just going to headcanon that the Judge is actually Grenth in disguise because the God of the Underworld leaving it unmanaged is a REALLY STUPID IDEA. (Also when he said "Remind Balthazar that not even gods escape judgement" sounded a bit too personal and something that would come from Grenth's mouth)"

It's worth noting at the very least I appreciate the irony of using Sohothin to defeat Balthazar, kind of sowing the seeds of his own destruction there.

It is worth noting that Sohotin is not even needed to kill him. There is even an achievement to kill him without that sword. Which turns out to be easier than using that sword (imo).

Sir Vincent III.1286 · October 6, 2017

@Malediktus.9250 said:It is worth noting that Sohotin is not even needed to kill him. There is even an achievement to kill him without that sword. Which turns out to be easier than using that sword (imo).

I'm actually considering that in my 3rd playthrough with my Mesmer. Sohothin will simply not work well with my Mirage build.

Pax.3548 · October 6, 2017

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
@Pax.3548 said:You guys feel its a repeat of the abaddon plot, while I don't really feel like thats the case, like so many others I'm sure, so no, I don't think this was some kind of nightfall 2, because clearly it isn't.

It definitely is. The meeting with Kormir is practically a complete rehash of the meeting with Lyssa's Muse in Gate of Madness. Balthazar's goal is to become the only god, just as Abaddon's goal was to become the only god. They were both "betrayed" and imprisoned. They both utilize armies of mortals (Zaishen/Kournan Military) and souls-in-armor (Forged/Shiro'ken), they both have a female spokesperson (Herald of Balthazar / Varesh Ossa), and in both cases we utilize Joko/Joko's army to confront the fallen god.

It's not a 100% copy, but it's as obvious a rehash of the plot as The Force Awakens is a rehash of A New Hope.

Whether that's a bad thing or not... is anyone's argument of opinion.

@Pax.3548 said:No, Lazarus couldn't take the magic for himself, if the mursaat really could do that don't you think they would have destroyed these bloodstones and take its magic for themselves to avoid the fullfilment of the flameseeker prophecies and thus the end of their race?

The Seers had a Shadowstone that allowed them to work with high quantities of magic. The White Mantle had people in the Durmand Priory, and performed a ritual.

If a human could absorb magic with outside aid (Kormir), why couldn't a mursaat?

It's actually fully viable and possible for Lazarus, in the now, to absorb a Bloodstone's worth of magic. Maybe not viable and possible for them to have done so back then.

@Pax.3548 said:And for last, we knew little about balthazar back in gw1, and the little we know shows he was brutal and proud (just look about kaolai's background, you think a god that killed a mortal for winning a game is stable?)

To be fair, we also see him as honorable and inspiring, never once proclaiming that "I do not fear conflict. I AM CONFLICT!"

I feel that Balthazar's actions towards the Elder Dragons were true to his character... but his words in that flashback were not (and arguably his actions against the other gods, but he never really managed to

take

action against them).

Well, you may noticed similarities, but in the end its not a repeat, we didn't go the crystal desert to deal with an antagonist bent on freeing a fallen god, we went directly to deal with balth, who wasn't even a god at this point. Abaddon threaten to bring nightfall to Tyria, Balthazar didn't even intented to do anything to Tyria, he wished to only to kill and steal an elder dragon's magic, only that this implied Tyria's destruction. In nightfall, a god was born, in PoF no inmortal being was born. In the end, both stories may share similarities, but aren't the same thing, so its not correct to call PoF a repeat of nightfall I think ppl believes it to be a repeat of nightfall just because the antagonist happens to be a "god" (again, it wasn't even a god), if it was another being not connected to the gods, would ppl say the same?

I disagree about Lazarus being able to absorb a bloodstone magic, a bloodstone used by the gods to store the world's magic is not something a single mortal being could absorb. The bloodstone exploded and any mortal inside the blast radius would have been desintigrated. Sure Lazarus could have absorbed a portion, but not the whole thing and if that meant lazarus needed to be near the thing when it explored, he would have been vaporized like those poor white mantle guards.The shadowstone allowed the seer to amplify their magic to create the bloodstone, not contain the magic this last artifact was supposed to hold (if that were the case why create the bloodstone to begin with). The shadowstone didn't allow the seer to absorb enormous amount of magic. Even more, the notion of a small shadowstone containing the magic of a giant bloodstone, nope I don't see that happening. And again, if the mursaat thought it was posible to absorb a bloodstone, they would have done it if that could have prevented the flameseeker prophecies from happening.

About balthazar, we never seen him in person, nor the way he expressed himself, so we don't really knew his personality back then other than the script his own followers wrote about him. Maybe he reluctantly went on against abaddon, agreeing with the other gods about imprisoning him without killing him, but then "running" away from Tyria to avoid conflict with the dragons? I see how the god of war may have thought that was the last straw and decided to have his own way rather than following the rest of the gods with this idea. the fact that he says "I AM CONFLICT" could have been said out of anger rather than being "evil". Then the other gods acted first, balth may be a god, but if he was surprised and ambushed by other 5 then I could see how he was stripped of all his powers, Gods in gw universe aren't onmipotent, they are equivalent of the greek gods, and thus aren't so different with other mortals: they don't know everything and they have flaws too, and balthazar's was one too common with belligerent gods: Too much Pride.

draxynnic.3719 · October 7, 2017

The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.

Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.

When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be entirely reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

Pax.3548 · October 7, 2017

@draxynnic.3719 said:The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.
Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.
When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be entirely reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

If the mursaat wanted to power up their soul batteries, only one bloodstone would have sufficed, being a prophecy that foretold about their race's end, I don't think they would have been ok just with preparing a fortress if they could have taken the bloodstone's power for their own, beside I think the bloodstone is being underestimated, the power it hold is enough to cause a nuclear explosion, can a single being hold that much power inside without dying? (aside dragons and gods) Of course if it were just a portion then yeah that sounds more reasonable, though it would't be the same feat like balthazar, who did absorb all of its magic. Still, I think you're overestimating the mursaat a little. They were accomplished spellcasters, and very powerful, but many of them fell to humans and suffered a major defeat at thunderhead keep, and were annihilated just the same soon after. The very "impenetrable" fortress they prepared for years was pierced by a group of humans, and there the supposedly leader of the mursaat, Optimus Caliph, and Mercia the Smug, both likely being on par with Lazarus in terms of power or even more in Optimus's case, were killed.

They were mortals in the end, not too different from any other race, just more advanced regarding magic.

Another point, we know the mursaat had the knowledge to phase between Tyria and the Mist, but I don't think it was as literal as it sounds, if they could really phase between Tyria and the mist at will, they would have avoided their genocide at the hands of the titans, hell, if that were the case then they would just phase out of Tyria the moment their life seemed threatened in combat. While I do believe they could indeed go to the mist (they did save themselves in the last cycle by going into the mist after all), I think they needed preparations and rituals of some kind.

draxynnic.3719 · October 7, 2017

@Pax.3548 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.
Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.
When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be
entirely
reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

If the mursaat wanted to power up their soul batteries, only one bloodstone would have sufficed, being a prophecy that foretold about their race's end, I don't think they would have been ok just with preparing a fortress if they could have taken the bloodstone's power for their own, beside I think the bloodstone is being underestimated, the power it hold is enough to cause a nuclear explosion, can a single being hold that much power inside without dying? (aside dragons and gods) Of course if it were just a portion then yeah that sounds more reasonable, though it would't be the same feat like balthazar, who did absorb all of its magic. Still, I think you're overestimating the mursaat a little. They were accomplished spellcasters, and very powerful, but many of them fell to humans and suffered a major defeat at thunderhead keep, and were annihilated just the same soon after. The very "impenetrable" fortress they prepared for years was pierced by a group of humans, and there the supposedly leader of the mursaat, Optimus Caliph, and Mercia the Smug, both likely being on par with Lazarus in terms of power or even more in Optimus's case, were killed.

They were mortals in the end, not too different from any other race, just more advanced regarding magic.

Another point, we know the mursaat had the knowledge to phase between Tyria and the Mist, but I don't think it was as literal as it sounds, if they could really phase between Tyria and the mist at will, they would have avoided their genocide at the hands of the titans, hell, if that were the case then they would just phase out of Tyria the moment their life seemed threatened in combat. While I do believe they could indeed go to the mist (they did save themselves in the last cycle by going into the mist after all), I think they needed preparations and rituals of some kind.

From one of your earlier posts, you've admitted to not playing Guild Wars 1.

For the mursaat strategy in Prophecies, it was important that each of the bloodstones that we know of was intact. The Ring of Fire bloodstone was the foundation of the lock on the Door of Komalie. The Bloodstone Fen bloodstone was required so they could have a convenient location to take sacrifices to without having to go all the way to the Ring of Fire or the Shiverpeaks. The Shiverpeaks bloodstone was at least planned to perform a similar role for fighting in the Shiverpeaks, which they knew from the Flameseeker Prophecies would become a significant battleground before the Prophecies were completed.

We don't know where the other two are, so we don't know what happened to them. But in any case, I think it's more reasonable to think that the mursaat kept the bloodstones intact because it was important to their strategy that they were intact. Particularly since you're basing your argument on the assumption that the mursaat weren't tapping the bloodstones at all, when the fact that they could draw souls out of the bloodstones probably meant they could tap the bloodstones for power in general as well. In Episode 2, Lazarus (who we now know to have been Balthaddon in disguise) claimed that consuming the bloodstone was an emergency measure in the wake of 'misguided White Mantle tampering' - it would be entirely reasonable to think that consuming a bloodstone could be something that a mursaat (particularly one of the mursaat leaders) could do, but might choose not to because in the long run its better for them not to. (Particularly since in GW1's time, destroying a bloodstone might have ended up in depowering a lot of their own people as well).

And I think you're grossly underestimating the mursaat.

They're killable, but in terms of being 'mortal' - to refer to mythology, they're on a similar level to creatures such as fey, genies, the Norse jotun, and so on. They're not gods, but they're certainly a step above ordinary mortals. Yes, a group of mortals was able to defeat them - but that was a group of the greatest mortal heroes of their time, who still required a potent blessing of the gods and the assistance of a member of a rival race to the mursaat in order to even have a chance, and even then their assault on the mursaat fortress required the assistance of a disguised lich with a powerful magical artifact. This wasn't simply a group of mortals going and fighting the mursaat on a lark. Most of the point of going to the Crystal Desert in the first place was to Ascend to a point where we wouldn't be auto-killed by invisible mursaat, and even then we needed to take further steps to actually have a real chance against them rather than being insta-killed by Spectral Agony.

When it comes to the titans:

Part of the point is that the titans are able to counter the mursaat's tricks. They're formed from tortured souls melded together into a single entity which then create a body out of whatever is in the local environment - it's entirely reasonable that, being made out of ghosts, they also have 'one foot in the Mists', allowing them to fight the mursaat on their own ground (we see, in Factions, that powerful spirits such as the Envoys have a similar capability to hide in the Mists while still being able to act on the mortal world). Essentially, using the titans against the mursaat was a case of Summon Bigger Fish - the mursaat are far more powerful than even the great heroes among ordinary mortals (even with Ascension and Infusion, Prophecies never expected us to solo a mursaat and win, although with power creep it became possible to take on equal numbers of mursaat and come out on top...), but the titans were a step up again. Going back to the mythological analogue, the mursaat are on the level of fey, and then we summoned demons to deal with them.

So, I certainly don't think that there's anything that indicates that a mursaat couldn't absorb a bloodstone.

This goes double for Lazarus, for whom we have a reason why he'd need a lot of magic. It's a plot point that we essentially damaged his soul in Eye of the North. Souls seem to have a lot of power tied up in them (which makes them a potent power source...) and the soul of a mursaat may have more power in it than the soul of a human. It would be entirely reasonable for a lot of that power to have gone into repairing the damage to Lazarus' soul, and thus instead of having a mursaat with the power of a bloodstone inside him, it could have been a mursaat which now once more had an intact soul, absorbed as much additional energy from the Bloodstone as he could, and any remainder was then small enough to be released safely. Or he might have had some form of magic battery on hand so he didn't need to absorb it himself (he doesn't appear naked when he's restored in S3E6, so obviously when he split himself he was able to store some equipment in the process), allowing him to use that energy for some other purpose later on - resurrecting his people, for instance. You keep claiming 'it can't happen' - when for me, it absolutely could happen, and would be more believable and satisfying than giving us yet another fallen god plot through the WoW trick of Flanderising a shades-of-grey character into an irredeemable boss to kill, all for the sake of a cheap twist and giving Kasmeer a crisis of faith.

Similarly, bringing back Menzies in place of Balthazar would have been more fitting to the established lore. Menzies is known for using deception in a way that Balthazar wasn't, was already known as an enemy of the Six, and if Menzies would make it to Tyria, there is absolutely no reason - unlike Balthazar - why he wouldn't regard destroying Tyria as inconsequential if it meant he had the power to overthrow his brother and the other gods that supported him. Using Menzies would have had the same 'we're going back to GW1 lore' effect that they were aiming for with the gods, without requiring destroying a major element of human and GW1 lore to do so.

At the bottom line, if ArenaNet had gone with Lazarus or Menzies as the final boss of PoF, I really don't think we'd have anyone arguing that they should have subbed in Balthazar instead.

Djinn.9245 · October 7, 2017

@draxynnic.3719 said:...bringing back Menzies in place of Balthazar would have been more fitting to the established lore. Menzies is known for using deception in a way that Balthazar wasn't, was already known as an enemy of the Six, and if Menzies would make it to Tyria, there is absolutely no reason - unlike Balthazar - why he wouldn't regard destroying Tyria as inconsequential if it meant he had the power to overthrow his brother and the other gods that supported him. Using Menzies would have had the same 'we're going back to GW1 lore' effect that they were aiming for with the gods, without requiring destroying a major element of human and GW1 lore to do so.
At the bottom line, if ArenaNet had gone with Lazarus or Menzies as the final boss of PoF, I really don't think we'd have anyone arguing that they should have subbed in Balthazar instead.

I agree. I don't understand why Anet took the path they did, except maybe for the ability to hype the expansion (confront a God!!). HoT was about confronting a dragon so maybe they felt they needed something bigger to hype PoF. My solution would have been "Save the Dragon, Save the World!"

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 7, 2017

@Djinn.9245 said:I agree. I don't understand why Anet took the path they did,Basic narrative development.

Menzies was basically a literal who, even many people who played GW1 didn't really know about, and Lazarus was a mook who failed at everything he tired, and whose race was destroyed by the Titans, who were in turn destroyed by the PC, all the way back then. Neither of them are particularly strong final boss material, and Lazarus getting all that power wouldn't make sense to begin with given that his race was never shown to be capable of that. Hell, the Mursaat LOST to the Elder Dragons the last time, and had to go into hiding, for a reason.

The badguy being Balthazar allows them to deal with an entity most people actually know, and allows them to deal with the "the human gods have left" backdrop, as well as showing humanity having a crisis of faith when one of their own turns against them, and gives them an enemy who could reasonably be that powerful.

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Basic narrative development.
Menzies was basically a literal who, even many people who played GW1 didn't really know about, and Lazarus was a mook who failed at everything he tired, and whose race was destroyed by the Titans, who were in turn destroyed by the PC, all the way back then. Neither of them are particularly strong final boss material, and Lazarus getting all that power wouldn't make sense to begin with given that his race was never shown to be capable of that. Hell, the Mursaat LOST to the Elder Dragons the last time, and had to go into hiding, for a reason.
The badguy being Balthazar allows them to deal with an entity most people actually know, and allows them to deal with the "the human gods have left" backdrop, as well as showing humanity having a crisis of faith when one of their own turns against them, and gives them an enemy who could reasonably be that powerful.

Not sure I agree, considering Balthazar was never shown to have a hard on for fighting enemies that would lead to the inevitable destruction of the humans that worshipped him. In fact when he stepped into the mists, he said to the humans that all the other races would be easy to conquer, meaning he's not likely to enjoy fighting a war only to lose, and the destruction of tyria certainly seems prime criteria for losing a war. It feels like a retcon, but it's been over a thousand years since they left humanity behind, so it's possible there's unseen development of his personality.

As for Menzies or Lazarus being final boss material, Menzies would have been a way better introduction to the fringe lore surrounding the gods, who could have made grandiose statements like he killed Balthazar AND the other gods, making it exciting drama for the humans to face, with no interaction from their gods, could menzies be right? And if we keep everything the same, even going so far as to have menzies steal the mirror of lyssa from the reliquaries and try to take power from the elder dragons, there'd be a lot of debate within human society, because menzies is here, free, so something must have happened to the gods, but if so, why is he trying to take the power of elder dragons if he's already won? The casual reintroduction of Kormir could also be the same, saying that while the eternals/shadow army are still fighting, menzies somehow ex machina'd his way into tyria to gain more power and call his half brother to face him in honorable combat with "equal" power, and the gods couldn't chase him into tyria because they learned their lesson after fighting abaddon, while still leaving the fate of the human gods up in the air (including having them leave tyria for no explicit reason). The impact of everything would have been the same, the story would barely need to change (and it would also explain why menzies just never went to divinity's reach and gotten the entire human race to follow him, since he'd be an outcast). The crisis of faith would still be there especially because of the question of "what happened to the gods when one of their most powerful enemies escaped into tyria". Menzies could also boast about Dhuum's inevitable rise and Abaddon's essence taking over Kormir and warping her (which would be trumped by the player character actually meeting Kormir).

The lore just fits more for menzies in every aspect than it does for Balthazar. There could even have been a reason why menzies was bound in chains (Balthazar taking pity on his own half brother, the gods agreeing the impact of his death on the mists itself could be dire, something else entirely made up, even could have had Balthazar raging against the idea of keeping him alive with a 'take no prisoners' attitude but was outvoted by the rest of the gods and thus he was chained up in the mists).

And the thing is, this type of side-lore becoming prominent isn't exclusive to any kind of story, made up or real. Fringe things happen all the time that affect the outcome of a story. Nobody really expects the FBI to pull you into questioning for a half brother that they've never met, but the FBI would have plenty of reason to try and get assistance or answers from you. To you it's a fringe thing, but it's still happening. I doubt every human knows about menzies, maybe the priests of balthazar would have been able to get that message across, but it could also be interpreted as those stories that keep you in bed at night.

As for lazarus being unable to become the final boss, mursaat society would have had nearly 10 thousand years to figure out a way to more properly defend themselves from the elder dragons. While other societies would have faltered, mursaat society remained pretty strong throughout this time period up until the titans destroyed them, so it's not impossible for lazarus to pull something out of the mists (perhaps literally) for his use against the elder dragons, maybe even discovering something that could have allowed him to absorb all the magic of elder dragons.

There could have been something, anything to respect old lore while presenting it as new. But as it stands, balthazar is a poor rehash of abaddons story, only to usher in more dragon themed content, with a little bit of space for tackling palawa joko (who either dies in season 4 or dies in a raid, calling it now).

Pax.3548 · October 7, 2017

@draxynnic.3719 said:
@Pax.3548 said:
@draxynnic.3719 said:The detail are different... but the same is true of the Force Awakens versus A New Hope. The fundamentals, however, are broadly the same. Of course they can't be exactly the same, since the starting conditions are different, but it's the same 'fallen god' story all over again in a different context and with some of the key events in a different order or otherwise adjusted for the GW2 time period.
Regarding the mursaat and absorbing the bloodstones: The mursaat defence against the Flameseeker Prophecies' fulfillment appeared to rely on the bloodstones being intact. The soul batteries that kept the Door of Komalie locked were mounted on a bloodstone, and adding new souls to the batteries relied on the fact that a soul who was killed on one bloodstone could be transferred to somewhere else. In fact, it's entirely likely that they felt that continual harvesting of souls on the bloodstones, in order to empower the soul batteries, ether towers, jade constructs, and other defences, was more valuable than simply consuming the magic, regardless of whether or not they have the capability.
When it comes to the capability: while the mursaat were not gods, they are also clearly not 'mortal' in the same sense that humans, charr, asura, sylvari and norn are. They appear to be immortal. They can preserve their lives by splitting themselves into aspects (or at least Lazarus could). They are able to phase between Tyria and the Mists at will. With the information we had before Season 3 started, it would be
entirely
reasonable to think that such being would be able to safely absorb significantly greater power than a mortal could... particularly if they approach was taken that a lot of that energy went into achieving a purpose (such as repairing the aspect we damaged in EOTN) rather than simply filling Lazarus up with magic.

If the mursaat wanted to power up their soul batteries, only one bloodstone would have sufficed, being a prophecy that foretold about their race's end, I don't think they would have been ok just with preparing a fortress if they could have taken the bloodstone's power for their own, beside I think the bloodstone is being underestimated, the power it hold is enough to cause a nuclear explosion, can a single being hold that much power inside without dying? (aside dragons and gods) Of course if it were just a portion then yeah that sounds more reasonable, though it would't be the same feat like balthazar, who did absorb all of its magic. Still, I think you're overestimating the mursaat a little. They were accomplished spellcasters, and very powerful, but many of them fell to humans and suffered a major defeat at thunderhead keep, and were annihilated just the same soon after. The very "impenetrable" fortress they prepared for years was pierced by a group of humans, and there the supposedly leader of the mursaat, Optimus Caliph, and Mercia the Smug, both likely being on par with Lazarus in terms of power or even more in Optimus's case, were killed.

They were mortals in the end, not too different from any other race, just more advanced regarding magic.

Another point, we know the mursaat had the knowledge to phase between Tyria and the Mist, but I don't think it was as literal as it sounds, if they could really phase between Tyria and the mist at will, they would have avoided their genocide at the hands of the titans, hell, if that were the case then they would just phase out of Tyria the moment their life seemed threatened in combat. While I do believe they could indeed go to the mist (they did save themselves in the last cycle by going into the mist after all), I think they needed preparations and rituals of some kind.

From one of your earlier posts, you've admitted to not playing Guild Wars 1.

For the mursaat strategy in Prophecies, it was important that each of the bloodstones that we know of was intact. The Ring of Fire bloodstone was the foundation of the lock on the Door of Komalie. The Bloodstone Fen bloodstone was required so they could have a convenient location to take sacrifices to without having to go all the way to the Ring of Fire or the Shiverpeaks. The Shiverpeaks bloodstone was at least planned to perform a similar role for fighting in the Shiverpeaks, which they knew from the Flameseeker Prophecies would become a significant battleground before the Prophecies were completed.

We don't know where the other two are, so we don't know what happened to them. But in any case, I think it's more reasonable to think that the mursaat kept the bloodstones intact because it was important to their strategy that they were intact. Particularly since you're basing your argument on the assumption that the mursaat weren't tapping the bloodstones at all, when the fact that they could draw souls out of the bloodstones probably meant they could tap the bloodstones for power in general as well. In Episode 2, Lazarus (who we now know to have been Balthaddon in disguise) claimed that consuming the bloodstone was an emergency measure in the wake of 'misguided White Mantle tampering' - it would be entirely reasonable to think that consuming a bloodstone could be something that a mursaat (particularly one of the mursaat leaders)

could

do, but might choose not to because in the long run its better for them not to. (Particularly since in GW1's time, destroying a bloodstone might have ended up in depowering a lot of their own people as well).

And I think you're grossly underestimating the mursaat.

They're killable, but in terms of being 'mortal' - to refer to mythology, they're on a similar level to creatures such as fey, genies, the Norse jotun, and so on. They're not gods, but they're certainly a step above ordinary mortals. Yes, a group of mortals was able to defeat them - but that was a group of the greatest mortal heroes of their time, who still required a potent blessing of the gods and the assistance of a member of a rival race to the mursaat in order to even have a chance, and even then their assault on the mursaat fortress required the assistance of a disguised lich with a powerful magical artifact. This wasn't simply a group of mortals going and fighting the mursaat on a lark. Most of the point of going to the Crystal Desert in the first place was to Ascend to a point where we wouldn't be auto-killed by invisible mursaat, and even then we needed to take further steps to actually have a real chance against them rather than being insta-killed by Spectral Agony.

When it comes to the titans:

Part of the point is that the titans are able to counter the mursaat's tricks. They're formed from tortured souls melded together into a single entity which then create a body out of whatever is in the local environment - it's entirely reasonable that, being made out of ghosts, they also have 'one foot in the Mists', allowing them to fight the mursaat on their own ground (we see, in Factions, that powerful spirits such as the Envoys have a similar capability to hide in the Mists while still being able to act on the mortal world). Essentially, using the titans against the mursaat was a case of Summon Bigger Fish - the mursaat are far more powerful than even the great heroes among ordinary mortals (even with Ascension and Infusion, Prophecies never expected us to solo a mursaat and win, although with power creep it became possible to take on equal numbers of mursaat and come out on top...), but the titans were a step up again. Going back to the mythological analogue, the mursaat are on the level of fey, and then we summoned demons to deal with them.

So, I certainly don't think that there's anything that indicates that a mursaat couldn't absorb a bloodstone.

This goes double for Lazarus, for whom we have a reason why he'd need a lot of magic. It's a plot point that we essentially damaged his soul in Eye of the North. Souls seem to have a lot of power tied up in them (which makes them a potent power source...) and the soul of a mursaat may have more power in it than the soul of a human. It would be entirely reasonable for a lot of that power to have gone into repairing the damage to Lazarus' soul, and thus instead of having a mursaat with the power of a bloodstone inside him, it could have been a mursaat which now once more had an intact soul, absorbed as much additional energy from the Bloodstone as he could, and any remainder was then small enough to be released safely. Or he might have had some form of magic battery on hand so he didn't need to absorb it himself (he doesn't appear naked when he's restored in S3E6, so obviously when he split himself he was able to store some equipment in the process), allowing him to use that energy for some other purpose later on - resurrecting his people, for instance. You keep claiming 'it can't happen' - when for me, it absolutely could happen, and would be more believable and satisfying than giving us yet another fallen god plot through the WoW trick of Flanderising a shades-of-grey character into an irredeemable boss to kill, all for the sake of a cheap twist and giving Kasmeer a crisis of faith.

Similarly, bringing back Menzies in place of Balthazar would have been more fitting to the established lore. Menzies is known for using deception in a way that Balthazar wasn't, was already known as an enemy of the Six, and if Menzies would make it to Tyria, there is absolutely no reason - unlike Balthazar - why he wouldn't regard destroying Tyria as inconsequential if it meant he had the power to overthrow his brother and the other gods that supported him. Using Menzies would have had the same 'we're going back to GW1 lore' effect that they were aiming for with the gods, without requiring destroying a major element of human and GW1 lore to do so.

At the bottom line, if ArenaNet had gone with Lazarus or Menzies as the final boss of PoF, I really don't think we'd have anyone arguing that they should have subbed in Balthazar instead.

The fact the first thing you say it that I didn't play gw1 tells me you're starting to get personal in the discussion here.

You're assuming their strategy required all the bloodstones to be intact and in the place they were, like they used the bloodstone from the bloodstone caves too right? the only use they give to the bloodstone was to power up their batteries (it was important I Know), and yet facing extintion in the hands of an enemy they probably knew couldn't face with their abilities they didn't even break one single bloodstone to use the power just because they thought chargering batteries was more important right? I'll end this part of the discussion here, as I get the impression you will start discussing less and insulting or typing "hints" about me not playing gw1 because I don't agree with you.

Another thing, you say mursaat were the most powerful being than even the most powerful heroes, yet lorewise you got that these very heroes broke through their defenses, killed hordes of mursaat (not only here but also in thunderhead keep) and even their leaders, and whats more, even defeated a wave of titans in order to kill the lich lord who controlled them. You focus on gameplay mechanics like it mattered on the lore? lol. You have the heart of a white mantle fanatic don't you, next you'll say to me they truly were gods amonst mere mortals.

You said Lazarus was damaged and thas true, but did he required magic when he was resurrected at the end of LS3? nope, did he looked damaged because of the corrupted aspect? nope, he was probably even more powerful than balth before he absorbed the bloodstone. That either means he recovered during his slumber or after his new soul division, or anet just left out that detail. We'll never know for true so making assumptions here and thinking them facts won't help your argument.

Just in case, if you're thinking I'm saying I don't believe Lazarus wouldn't be able to absorb some power from the bloodstone, then you really didn't read my first messages in this discussion, I said Lazarus couldn't absorb ALL the bloodstone the way balthazar did, so if Lazarus were to be the antagonist in LS3, then the first episode wouldn't happened the explosive way it did.

About menzies I won't be going back there as everyone have their own opinion regarding that.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 7, 2017

@castlemanic.3198 said:Not sure I agree, considering Balthazar was never shown to have a hard on for fighting enemies that would lead to the inevitable destruction of the humans that worshipped him. In fact when he stepped into the mists, he said to the humans that all the other races would be easy to conquer, meaning he's not likely to enjoy fighting a war only to lose, and the destruction of tyria certainly seems prime criteria for losing a war. It feels like a retcon, but it's been over a thousand years since they left humanity behind, so it's possible there's unseen development of his personality.https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0exa5/Anet_ConnorFI'll jump in for 2 about Balth, and point out that he entered the canon he was carrying his father's severed head. Humans viewed him as the god of honor, and in some ways his refusal to back away from confronting the dragons IS honorable... but he was always ruthless.andAnet-ScottMcGLikewise, Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it).It's perfectly fitting with his character.@castlemanic.3198 said:(including having them leave tyria for no explicit reason).Except they DID leave for an explicit reason, one they mentioned back in Nightfall, which is that them taking action only leads to large scale destruction of the planet. Something they wanted to avoid.@castlemanic.3198 said:As for lazarus being unable to become the final boss, mursaat society would have had nearly 10 thousand years to figure out a way to more properly defend themselves from the elder dragons.And yet they couldn't even manage to find a way to defend themselves from the Titans, a race of far less power.

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0exa5/
Anet_ConnorFI'll jump in for 2 about Balth, and point out that he entered the canon he was carrying his father's severed head. Humans viewed him as the god of honor, and in some ways his refusal to back away from confronting the dragons IS honorable... but he was always ruthless.andAnet-ScottMcGLikewise, Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it).It's perfectly fitting with his character.

I definitely wouldn't say perfectly. Considering that Balthazar helped the other gods place humans on tyria, and then balthazar goes back on that, willing to destroy tyria (and all the humans who worshipped him on it) feels like it required something outside of the scope of what Balthazar is to justify it. The devs chose to go with an obscure meaning of honor and a flimsy explanation of his personality. I know he's not exactly the god of restraint, but being a god of war, he'd also presumably know tactics, and tactically speaking, it's completely unsound to fight an enemy who, through their death, would destroy the very thing you're trying to protect.

Those are extremely weak and flimsy excuses when there was a much better fitting option, menzies.

@castlemanic.3198 said:(including having them leave tyria for no explicit reason).Except they DID leave for an explicit reason, one they mentioned back in Nightfall, which is that them taking action only leads to large scale destruction of the planet. Something they wanted to avoid.

Pardon me, I meant leaving the mists entirely and abandoning the human race to it's fate when they could have remained and watched over it.

Also, that's your only comment on the whole menzies thing and how he fits better than Balthazar, even with those explanations given by the devs?

And yet they couldn't even manage to find a way to defend themselves from the Titans, a race of far less power.

Presumably it's because the titans were an enemy the mursaat had never encountered. Remember, they had the door of kormalie shut so as not to deal with them in any way, somewhat indicating they've never faced any of the titans before. I also believe, but i could be wrong, that the titans were immune to the mursaat's most powerful weapon, spectral agony, meaning that if an enemy force were to overwhelm them, they'd fall back on that and get overrun. Just because it didn't work on titans doesn't mean that it couldn't work on elder dragons, but even if it didn't, that doesn't mean that the mursaat couldn't have figured out another avenue for defeating the elder dragons.

They also couldn't have ever faced the titans before, since the titans were forged from the combining of forces between Dhuum, Abaddon and Menzies (i forgot entirely the specifics regarding the titans and their creation).

Just because you know how to deal with a powerful enemy doesn't mean you automatically know how to deal with a weaker one that has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. It's pretty much saying "medieval england should have known how to deal with plague infested rats because they could defeat invaders" (or whatever more appropriate historical reference there is, forgive my lack of historical knowledge). Different enemy, different tactics needed.

Pax.3548 · October 7, 2017

@castlemanic.3198 said:
@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0exa5/
Anet_ConnorFI'll jump in for 2 about Balth, and point out that he entered the canon he was carrying his father's severed head. Humans viewed him as the god of honor, and in some ways his refusal to back away from confronting the dragons IS honorable... but he was always ruthless.andAnet-ScottMcGLikewise, Balth the god of war had been more or less idle since the Exodus, with very little in the way of human contact or terrestrial combat. He's a fiery god of action and he was champing at the bit for the chance to do what he was born to do (as he sees it).It's perfectly fitting with his character.

I definitely wouldn't say perfectly. Considering that Balthazar helped the other gods place humans on tyria, and then balthazar goes back on that, willing to destroy tyria (and all the humans who worshipped him on it) feels like it required something outside of the scope of what Balthazar is to justify it. The devs chose to go with an obscure meaning of honor and a flimsy explanation of his personality. I know he's not exactly the god of restraint, but being a god of war, he'd also presumably know tactics, and tactically speaking, it's completely unsound to fight an enemy who, through their death, would destroy the very thing you're trying to protect.

Those are extremely weak and flimsy excuses when there was a much better fitting option, menzies.

@castlemanic.3198 said:(including having them leave tyria for no explicit reason).Except they DID leave for an explicit reason, one they mentioned back in Nightfall, which is that them taking action only leads to large scale destruction of the planet. Something they wanted to avoid.

Pardon me, I meant leaving the mists entirely and abandoning the human race to it's fate when they could have remained and watched over it.

Also, that's your only comment on the whole menzies thing and how he fits better than Balthazar, even with those explanations given by the devs?

And yet they couldn't even manage to find a way to defend themselves from the Titans, a race of far less power.

Presumably it's because the titans

were an enemy the mursaat had never encountered

. Remember, they had the door of kormalie shut so as not to deal with them in any way, somewhat indicating

they've never faced any of the titans before

. I also believe, but i could be wrong, that the titans were immune to the mursaat's most powerful weapon, spectral agony, meaning that if an enemy force were to overwhelm them, they'd fall back on that and get overrun. Just because it didn't work on titans doesn't mean that it couldn't work on elder dragons, but even if it didn't, that doesn't mean that the mursaat couldn't have figured out another avenue for defeating the elder dragons.

They also couldn't have ever faced the titans before, since the titans were forged from the combining of forces between Dhuum, Abaddon and Menzies (i forgot entirely the specifics regarding the titans and their creation).

Just because you know how to deal with a powerful enemy doesn't mean you automatically know how to deal with a weaker one that has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. It's pretty much saying "medieval england should have known how to deal with plague infested rats because they could defeat invaders" (or whatever more appropriate historical reference there is, forgive my lack of historical knowledge). Different enemy, different tactics needed.

Balthazar didn't want to destroy Tyria, why do you ppl always makes facts out of things that are proven not to be true, balthazar didn't care what happened to Tyria, he only wanted to kill an elder dragon and steal its magic, if that destroyed the world or not he didn't care. Besides hes a god of war, not god of "love the humans" he was changed because of the other gods abandoning him, he didn't care about tyria or humans anymore, he only cared for vengeance.

Your last point I believe its incorrect, the mursaat feared the titans, that implied they knew about them, probably even faced them before (being a powerful race, how do you fear that which you never faced in combat before?). Besides the seer knew the titans, and the seers were a race from before the last cycle, alongside the mursaat and others, so its reasonable to assume the mursaat knew about the titans too.

xXMapcoXx.9614 · October 7, 2017

You sound like a butt hurt nurd, you know that right? I will agree with you that the gw2 story in a nut shell is horrible, I am talking about the entire story, not just this or that but the whole darn thing. The issue I have with you is you think gw2 should feel shackled by the story in gw1 and that if it does not follow a narrow path set by guild wars 1 than the story is trash. The story can establish its own story line that does not have to be dictated by gw1 lore the story should be allow to move past that and become its own thing. It just that its feel they have no idea what direction they want to take or they just dont care.

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@Pax.3548 said:Balthazar didn't want to destroy Tyria, why do you ppl always makes facts out of things that are proven not to be true, balthazar didn't care what happened to Tyria, he only wanted to kill an elder dragon and steal its magic, if that destroyed the world or not he didn't care. Besides hes a god of war, not god of "love the humans" he was changed because of the other gods abandoning him, he didn't care about tyria or humans anymore, he only cared for vengeance.

He wants to kill the elder dragons and take their power, which would in turn destroy tyria, that's my entire point, you're harping on a tiny aspect of the argument. Also, if you finished path of fire, you'd realise Balthazar was trying to kill the elder dragons before he was banished and his divinity taken from him. That's the entire point of that instance with Kormir, she shows you what he was like, which was blood crazy for dragons dying.

He also, as I just mentioned, helped bring humans to tyria and told them to wage a war he was sure they'd win. Going from "take this freebie world from others" to "it doesn't matter what happens to any of you" is a massive character shift that remains unexplained.

Your last point I believe its incorrect, the mursaat feared the titans, that implied they knew about them, probably even faced them before (being a powerful race, how do you fear that which you never faced in combat before?). Besides the seer knew the titans, and the seers were a race from before the last cycle, alongside the mursaat and others, so its reasonable to assume the mursaat knew about the titans too.

The mursaat only became worried about the titans after the flameseeker prophecies were foretold by glint. The mursaat responded by using human souls from kryta sacrificed on a bloodstone as batteries to keep the door of kormalie closed. What's more, the titans are a direct creation of dhuum/abaddon/menzies (forgot the details), therefore it's literally impossible for the mursaat and seers to have encountered titans until after the fall of abaddon.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 7, 2017

@castlemanic.3198 said:I definitely wouldn't say perfectly. Considering that Balthazar helped the other gods place humans on tyria, and then balthazar goes back on that, willing to destroy tyria (and all the humans who worshipped him on it) feels like it required something outside of the scope of what Balthazar is to justify it. The devs chose to go with an obscure meaning of honor and a flimsy explanation of his personality. I know he's not exactly the god of restraint, but being a god of war, he'd also presumably know tactics, and tactically speaking, it's completely unsound to fight an enemy who, through their death, would destroy the very thing you're trying to protect.Balthazar's only known role in regards to the human migration to Tyria was him helping them slaughter everything he could. It was the OTHER gods who actually helped humanity move to Tyria and build a life there.
@castlemanic.3198 said:Pardon me, I meant leaving the mists entirely and abandoning the human race to it's fate when they could have remained and watched over it.Why would they stay and watch humanity possibly be destroyed? There is no reason for them to stay if they can't do anything. That is just a sickening cruelty of watching people die like a snuff film fanatic would do.
@castlemanic.3198 said:Also, that's your only comment on the whole menzies thing and how he fits better than Balthazar, even with those explanations given by the devs?Mostly yes, because the entire Menzies plotline you described wouldn't work since we know for a fact, from several story missions before PoF, that the other gods ARE alive, so Menzies coming out to say he killed them, and that is why they are gone, wouldn't work. Hell, we get told by one of Grenth's top men that Grenth is alive, and whats the soul of his former priest back, in the Orr arc. This isn't even getting into how there is no way Balthazar would let Menzies run amok, or say the other gods are dead, without quickly proving his half-brother wrong, making the entire plotline over in about two seconds.

The problem with most of these "why not Menzies" plot suggestions is that they always ignore the actual lore, to try to shoehorn in a character who shouldn't be there, simply because he is obscure and people think they are being clever by referencing it.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Presumably it's because the titans were an enemy the mursaat had never encountered.That really sn't the point at all. The Mursaat, along with the Forgotten, and their armies of constructs, already tried and failed to attack the Elder Dragons, and the Mursaat tried and failed to stop the Titans. The Mursaat are a species that has been consistently shown to be fearful, and failures. Trying to make them super badasses is nothing but GW1 era fanwank that goes against the lore. They failed, they are failures, even with their badass spectral powers they failed to stop the dragons, and had to hide like cowards to survive.

This idea that they would have spent any significant amount of time trying to come up with a new way to kill the Elder Dragons goes against lore, and makes no sense, because, if they were still alive when the Elder Dragons rose again, they could just do what they did last time and vanish. There is no logical need or motivation for them to try to develop new means to fight the Elder Dragons, they already know from past experience that it was pointless, and already developed a winning strategy of running away.

Pax.3548 · October 7, 2017

The mursaat only became worried about the titans after the flameseeker prophecies were foretold by glint. The mursaat responded by using human souls from kryta sacrificed on a bloodstone as batteries to keep the door of kormalie closed. What's more, the titans are a direct creation of dhuum/abaddon/menzies (forgot the details), therefore it's literally impossible for the mursaat and seers to have encountered titans until after the fall of abaddon.

Thats a good point.

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Balthazar's only known role in regards to the human migration to Tyria was him helping them slaughter everything he could. It was the OTHER gods who actually helped humanity move to Tyria and build a life there.

But a successful conquest of the other races would have made humans rule over all the land, thus securing their place of prominence and making their survival from there on out much easier. That's tactically sound in an area unfamiliar with humanity and that could potentially be extremely hostile to it.

It's also potentially genocide, but we'll leave that detail out. In the end, it falls in line with the other gods bringing humans to tyria for balthazar to want them to conquer the world and be supreme to every threat they could possibly face. How that turned out is another matter entirely, but the intention falls alongside all those of the other gods.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Pardon me, I meant leaving the mists entirely and abandoning the human race to it's fate when they could have remained and watched over it.Why would they stay and watch humanity possibly be destroyed? There is no reason for them to stay if they can't do anything. That is just a sickening cruelty of watching people die like a snuff film fanatic would do.

Because they were still able to provide gifts to humanity, give guidance through their avatars and potentially help with theorizing ways that humans could overcome the threat of the dragons without destroying tyria. With all lore establishing that the human gods knew about the elder dragons and the threat they posed from before the exodus, it would mean that the human gods have the ability to take a look at the situation and come up with a solution. Being unable to physically interact with tyria does not exclude every possibility of the gods helping humans overcome the threat of the dragons, especially with a god of truth and knowledge like kormir.

Mostly yes, because the entire Menzies plotline you described wouldn't work since we know for a fact, from several story missions before PoF, that the other gods ARE alive, so Menzies coming out to say he killed them, and that is why they are gone, wouldn't work. Hell, we get told by one of Grenth's top men that Grenth is alive, and whats the soul of his former priest back, in the Orr arc. This isn't even getting into how there is no way Balthazar would let Menzies run amok, or say the other gods are dead, without quickly proving his half-brother wrong, making the entire plotline over in about two seconds.
The problem with most of these "why not Menzies" plot suggestions is that they always ignore the actual lore, to try to shoehorn in a character who shouldn't be there, simply because he is obscure and people think they are being clever by referencing it.

And there's no possibility that menzies could have been defeated, chained up by the gods and rescued by Rytlock? That he could have lied about the gods being killed (which was my point, not that he could have actually killed them) because most of the gods had turned away from the mists entirely by that point in time (note how in path of fire, the gods have entirely left their realms, with kormir soon to follow and she does follow), meaning there'd be almost no interaction and no method of confirming the lies that menzies would shout to the world?

It makes more sense than Balthazar not going straight to divinity's reach and having humanity follow him.

Remember, Season 3 and heart of thorns never touched on the human gods or their impact on the world, and season 2 didn't either, meaning there was plenty of time between then and now for the gods to have been 'overthrown or defeated' by menzies. So it's not a matter of 'trying to shoehorn in a character who shoudn't be there', it's that the very lore makes a point of menzies being more optimal for this role than balthazar, the one you say we choose to ignore.

That really sn't the point at all. The Mursaat, along with the Forgotten, and their armies of constructs, already tried and failed to attack the Elder Dragons, and the Mursaat tried and failed to stop the Titans. The Mursaat are a species that has been consistently shown to be fearful, and failures. Trying to make them super badasses is nothing but GW1 era fanwank that goes against the lore. They failed, they are failures, even with their kitten spectral powers they failed to stop the dragons, and had to hide like cowards to survive.
This idea that they would have spent any significant amount of time trying to come up with a new way to kill the Elder Dragons goes against lore, and makes no sense, because, if they were still alive when the Elder Dragons rose again, they could just do what they did last time and vanish. There is no logical need or motivation for them to try to develop new means to fight the Elder Dragons, they already know from past experience that it was pointless, and already developed a winning strategy of running away.

The elder races were encountering the elder dragons for what seems like the very first time, meaning they had no ways of preparing beforehand to face an enemy they didn't know about, which actually is the entire point of what i was suggesting. The mursaat have been fearful of two things, having their magic taken away from them (conjectured based upon the fact that they refused to give up their magic and simply stepped between worlds) and their certain destruction foretold by a prophecy. Calling them failures when they thrived and won the war against the seers is ignoring lore, the very thing you accused everyone who suggests menzies instead of balthazar of doing.

Besides, it's not against the lore because the mursaat also conquered kryta, helped defeat the invading charr and remained as deities over beings who couldn't see them. Instead of just fleeing from the titans like they fled from the dragons, they stayed on tyria and prevented them from coming in which they knew would lead to certain death because of a prophecy from a reliable source. It's also much more efficient to deal with a threat they can face than running away every once in a while, on top of the fact that it's a much more efficient way of keeping their magic, the very thing they didn't do when they had the choice to. Instead of using some of their own, they used another species they didn't care for to power the door of kormalie and keep it shut.

You're telling me the mursaat, after doing all of that, would put absolutely no effort into discovering a way to defeat the dragons so that they would remain supreme?

The mursaat are egotistical to the nth degree, it would go against all established lore for the mursaat to simply not do anything until the elder dragons came and then just flee.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 7, 2017

@castlemanic.3198 said:
But a successful conquest of the other races would have made humans rule over all the land
Because they were still able to provide gifts to humanity,
And there's no possibility that menzies could have been defeated, chained up by the gods and rescued by Rytlock?
That he could have lied about the gods being killed (which was my point, not that he could have actually killed them) because most of the gods had turned away from the mists entirely by that point in time (note how in path of fire, the gods have entirely left their realms, with kormir soon to follow and she does follow), meaning there'd be almost no interaction and no method of confirming the lies that menzies would shout to the world
It makes more sense than Balthazar not going straight to divinity's reach and having humanity follow him.
Remember, Season 3 and heart of thorns never touched on the human gods or their impact on the world, and season 2 didn't either, meaning there was plenty of time between then and now for the gods to have been 'overthrown or defeated' by menzies.
The elder races were encountering the elder dragons for what seems like the very first time, meaning they had no ways of preparing beforehand to face an enemy they didn't know about, which actually is the entire point of what i was suggesting.
Calling them failures when they thrived and won the war against the seers is ignoring lore
Besides, it's not against the lore because the mursaat also conquered kryta
Instead of just fleeing from the titans like they fled from the dragons, they stayed on tyria and prevented them from coming in which they knew would lead to certain death because of a prophecy from a reliable source.
You're telling me the mursaat, after doing all of that, would put absolutely no effort into discovering a way to defeat the dragons so that they would remain supreme?
The mursaat are egotistical to the nth degree, it would go against all established lore for the mursaat to simply not do anything until the elder dragons came and then just flee.
Which is literally secondary to the primary objective of killing stuff. It's a side-effect, not the motivation.
Again, play Nightfall, the whole reason they left was because they had already given everything they could too humanity, humans just had to learn how to use it. They even bring this up again in GW2, when Kormir tells Kas that she already carries the blessings of the gods, and that she should never forget that. They also aren't going to, nor should they, help give us the answer to the dragon problem, for the same reason they didn't really give us an answer to the Abbadon problem. At some point in time you have to let your children walk their own path, make their own mistakes, and start thinking for themselves, which is, again, part of the reason they left after Nightfall.
That was never the point.
Grenth had left his realm, and yet his reaper knew he wanted the soul of the Orrian priest back. Just because they are gone doesn't mean they don't have ways of reaching us if they REALLY wanted to.
That would be a terribly stupid move on his part because doing so would only reveal he isn't a god anymore, and that all his powers were gone, which would in turn clue humanity in that he was cast out. The whole point of the Lazarus ruse was to hide his identity so he could regain some modicum of power before anyone knew it was him. You're basically saying Balthazar should have done something to undermine his own plan James Bond movie villain style.
Not really, unless you want to come up with an excuse as to why no one noticed the literal planet destroying power of the god's "deaths" that Menzies is lying about.
You ignore the fact they fought them for many years. Pretending the Elder Dragons just showed up, and killed everything in a day, does nothing but show how faulty the basis of your argument is. The Mursaat had many years, working with the Forgotten, and fighting the dragons and their minions, to make up new magics to combat them, and nothing worked.
What is ignoring the lore is ignoring the fact they won the war against the seers after the Seers had already been largely annihilated by the dragons, while the Mursaat got off much better because they hid. They won against an anemic opponent ,who had no real ability to fight back... such a great win for the Mursaat!
They literally did no such thing. The White Mantel gained control of Kryta after the hereditary rulers fled and vanished, and then they won against the Charr, which gained them the popular opinion to help them gain control. The Mursaat didn't "conquer" anything, they set up the White Mantel to be made the leaders of Kryta, but the only time they attempted to conquered Kryta was after Salma had been found, and it resulted in a war the Mursaat decisively lost. At this point you are literally lying about the Mursaat's accomplishments in order to push more fanwank about how super special they are. Stop it.
That's arguably because they entire idea of the Mursaat being able to flee to another realm wasn't part of the lore back in Guild Wars 1, so they couldn't have done something not even the devs knew they could do at the time. Back in GW1, they were just invisible to everyone except those with magic sight... because reasons. Also, the Titans transcend realms also, so going into hiding wouldn't work like it did against the dragons which i nturn forced them to have to actively fight for their survival.
They would remain supreme regardless. Their ability to hide between realms during the Elder Dragon awakenings would ENSURE their superiority because everyone else would get annihilated, making it easier to control them after the dragons go back to sleep. Not killing the dragons is 100% beneficial to their overall plans at this point, as it ensures that no one could ever rise to challenge them.
And yet its literally canon that they did. Lex Luthor is egotism defined, but even he knows when the best time to retreat is.

Guild Wars 1 context for those who haven't played it.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_MadnessKormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."player name: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."player name: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."Lyssa's Muse: "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift."Lyssa's Muse: "This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?"player name: "The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:
Which is literally secondary to the primary objective of killing stuff. It's a side-effect, not the motivation.
Again, play Nightfall, the whole reason they left was because they had already given everything they could too humanity, humans just had to learn how to use it. They even bring this up again in GW2, when Kormir tells Kas that she already carries the blessings of the gods, and that she should never forget that. They also aren't going to, nor should they, help give us the answer to the dragon problem, for the same reason they didn't really give us an answer to the Abbadon problem. At some point in time you have to let your children walk their own path, make their own mistakes, and start thinking for themselves, which is, again, part of the reason they left after Nightfall.
That was never the point.
Grenth had left his realm, and yet his reaper knew he wanted the soul of the Orrian priest back. Just because they are gone doesn't mean they don't have ways of reaching us if they REALLY wanted to.
That would be a terribly stupid move on his part because doing so would only reveal he isn't a god anymore, and that all his powers were gone, which would in turn clue humanity in that he was cast out. The whole point of the Lazarus ruse was to hide his identity so he could regain some modicum of power before anyone knew it was him. You're basically saying Balthazar should have done something to undermine his own plan James Bond movie villain style.
Not really, unless you want to come up with an excuse as to why no one noticed the literal planet destroying power of the god's "deaths" that Menzies is lying about.
You ignore the fact they fought them for many years. Pretending the Elder Dragons just showed up, and killed everything in a day, does nothing but show how faulty the basis of your argument is. The Mursaat had many years, working with the Forgotten, and fighting the dragons and their minions, to make up new magics to combat them, and nothing worked.
What is ignoring the lore is ignoring the fact they won the war against the seers after the Seers had already been largely annihilated by the dragons, while the Mursaat got off much better because they hid. They won against an anemic opponent ,who had no real ability to fight back... such a great win for the Mursaat!
They literally did no such thing. The White Mantel gained control of Kryta after the hereditary rulers fled and vanished, and then they won against the Charr, which gained them the popular opinion to help them gain control. The Mursaat didn't "conquer" anything, they set up the White Mantel to be made the leaders of Kryta, but the only time they attempted to conquered Kryta was after Salma had been found, and it resulted in a war the Mursaat decisively lost. At this point you are literally lying about the Mursaat's accomplishments in order to push more fanwank about how super special they are. Stop it.
That's arguably because they entire idea of the Mursaat being able to flee to another realm wasn't part of the lore back in Guild Wars 1, so they couldn't have done something not even the devs knew they could do at the time. Back in GW1, they were just invisible to everyone except those with magic sight... because reasons. Also, the Titans transcend realms also, so going into hiding wouldn't work like it did against the dragons which i nturn forced them to have to actively fight for their survival.
They would remain supreme regardless. Their ability to hide between realms during the Elder Dragon awakenings would ENSURE their superiority because everyone else would get annihilated, making it easier to control them after the dragons go back to sleep. Not killing the dragons is 100% beneficial to their overall plans at this point, as it ensures that no one could ever rise to challenge them.
And yet its literally canon that they did. Lex Luthor is egotism defined, but even he knows when the best time to retreat is.

We don't know either way. There's nothing fool proof that states that Balthazar's primary goal was to kill stuff, not to make humanity supreme.
THE GODS MADE THEIR OWN SOLUTION, they blessed Kormir with the ability to absorb what remained of Abaddon after his defeat (or so it's assumed) so that she could ascend to godhood (through the whole they gave her a choice only a mortal could make). This is even more confirmed through Kormir's dialogue that you just quoted. Stating they've done nothing nor should do anything when they've clearly done so in nightfall, before the devs even came up with the lore about the elder dragons, is completely wrong. What's more, now that there IS a problem that humanity doesn't have the tools to deal with (especially with the vacancies previously filled by two elder dragons in the All), it's completely untrue that the gods couldn't have stayed and helped provide a solution. However, there's no point arguing this particular part because it was established they moved away from gw2 launch, so the devs stayed their path on this one.
That was entirely my point, that there can be lore established to have menzies become the prominent character instead of Balthazar, using the lore the devs put into season 3.
Kormir couldn't tell us about how Balthazar wanted to kill all the elder dragons because he was bloodthirsty despite remaining within her realm. We had to literally travel into the mists to get that info from her. And considering the timetable of Balthazar being close enough to kill kralkatorrik, you'd think that Kormir would use some sort of express mail vision to get that info to a priest of kormir and have that info relayed to us. So this logic doesn't really hold up, nor does it mean it's impossible for a timeline to exist where Grenth gives the reaper that info before peacing out, and THEN having balthazar end up free when the others weren't looking (in fact, considering there's no further communication with the gods between the beginning of season 2 and the beginning of path of fire, this seems the most likely case).
First of all, Balthazar could have given menzies as a reason for his downfall, and give false warnings about how menzies would try to kill the rest of the pantheon, and as established in the previous number, the gods wouldn't have been able to communicate the error in time. Secondly, he could have used the lazarus disguise only up until he absorbed the bloodstone, then walked into DR with that power, stating that he must recover the rest of his power through stealing it from the elder dragons or what not, and that would have made more sense than Balthazar still hiding in plain sight (because again, Kormir didn't reach out to us, we went to her to get that important info).
The only two cases we have of a god being overthrown/defeated and affecting the world are both Abaddon, when he was first placed into the realm of torment (which had drawn in certain pieces of tyria into it and also dried up the crystal sea) and Abaddon's final death (which was in the realm of torment, which was still close to tyria, close enough that it could affect tyria). We have two cases where that's not the situation, Abaddon overthrew a previous god and Grenth overthrew Dhuum, neither scenario bled into Tyria. Where the realm of torment is close enough to Tyria to affect it, the Fissure of Woe is not.
You ignored the point, which was they had nearly ten thousand years to come up with a way of defeating the enemy. THAT was my point. You're telling me that because the mursaat couldn't defeat the elder dragons within a few hundred years that it's impossible for them to even attempt to come up with a solution in the nearly ten thousand years they've had since then?
The mursaat were present to the point that they could refuse the offer of placing their magic in the bloodstone, which was what finally helped make the elder dragons sleep, meaning the mursaat probably had just as few in number as the seers did, if not slightly more because they did go into the mists. So yes actually, a pretty good win for potentially equal numbers.
Maybe conquer was too strong of a word, but you've done your fair share of trying to diminish the accomplishments of the mursaat, so you should stop it.
"The Gift of True Sight is a power that can be unlocked by Ascension, and is said to be dormant within the Chosen. True Sight prevents beings that slip out of the phase with the world, such as mursaat, from becoming invisible to those with the gift." https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gift_of_True_Sight notice that's the first guild wars wiki, not the second.
I'd be willing to accept this as the hubris of the mursaat. Not wholly convinced this is entirely the case, but certainly one option of two.
It's literally what they did after fighting a long war with the elder dragons and at the last second fleeing before they lost their magic. It is NOT a case of the mursaat foreseeing an elder dragon rise and choosing to hide. And lex luthor would always find a way to strike back, even after fleeing, and somehow gain superiority from an enemy that has bested him for now. Which is exactly what the mursaat would do.

castlemanic.3198 · October 7, 2017

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Guild Wars 1 context for those who haven't played it.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_MadnessKormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."player name: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."player name: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."Lyssa's Muse: "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift."Lyssa's Muse: "This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?"player name: "The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

Didn't have this in my earlier quote because I was too busy writing it. To me, this entirely screams of "you have the attributes/characteristics we like the most, therefore we the gods bless you with the power to become a god and take the place of abaddon, a thing otherwise impossible without our direct intervention", not that Kormir was somehow born with the ability to absorb the power of a god, a feat that, if you remember, was impossible for most characters in season 3 episode one, because everyone went bloodstone crazy, including humans. With the bloodstone first of all spread over such a large area, interacting with many creatures, and second of all being of a much, much lesser power than Abaddon himself, it appears that humans do not naturally have the ability to absorb so much magic at once. Even more so, the character is forced to use an artifact/relic that allows them to absorb unbound magic AND the shadowstone questline shows that even we chosen, as considered by Livia, are able to still absorb too much magic for our own good, and have the need to expel it asap.

So yes, I have every reason to believe Kormir was blessed by the gods with the ability to absorb the essence of the slain Abaddon. Funnily enough in that quote it specifically mentioned she was blessed, in the part you highlighted.

Athrenn.9468 · October 7, 2017

Are we still debating the fact of whether a mursaat could absorb the energy of a Bloodstone shard? The entire plot of Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful were that a mursaat needed to absorb the energy collected from Bloodstones in order to regenerate, which means that there was a huge Chekov's Gun hanging on the wall foreshadowing the future event of Lazarus absorbing the power of an exploding Bloodstone. At the end of Stronghold of the Faithful we saw a stasis chamber that had numerous slots in it where Bloodstone fragments were meant to fit, and in the center (where all of the energy was going) was a relief where a mursaat-shaped body would have fit. If the writers had decided to stick with Lazarus as the main antagonist then they would have had so many flags pointing in that direction that it would have made perfect sense.

Sajuuk Khar.1509 · October 7, 2017

@castlemanic.3198 said:Didn't have this in my earlier quote because I was too busy writing it. To me, this entirely screams of "you have the attributes/characteristics we like the most, therefore we the gods bless you with the power to become a god and take the place of abaddon, a thing otherwise impossible without our direct intervention",Well, what you think of it doesn't really matter, what they said is what they said, and technically any human could have done it.

As for Kormir being blessed, the gods outright say in that quote that they are always watching, and make no mention of actually doing anything like blessing Kormir specifically. Them giving her their "blessing" is them saying is the more common use of the phrase, meaning, we are giving you the OK to do something.

@Athrenn.9468 said:Are we still debating the fact of whether a mursaat could absorb the energy of a Bloodstone shard? The entire plot of Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful were that a mursaat needed to absorb the energy collected from Bloodstones in order to regenerate, which means that there was a huge Chekov's Gun hanging on the wall foreshadowing the future event of Lazarus absorbing the power of an exploding Bloodstone. At the end of Stronghold of the Faithful we saw a stasis chamber that had numerous slots in it where Bloodstone fragments were meant to fit, and in the center (where all of the energy was going) was a relief where a mursaat-shaped body would have fit. If the writers had decided to stick with Lazarus as the main antagonist then they would have had so many flags pointing in that direction that it would have made perfect sense.They only did that because Balthazar was faking them out.

Thornwolf.9721 · October 7, 2017

Its really simple as the why this is how it is.

Allowing a race to be special is bad in the dev's eyes, everyone needs to be special which means no one really is.
All the races are the same and see things the same, cant have racial diversity.
Anything to make a good plot is a waste of time, we want back in E-sports
Fuck the lore we have not cared since guild wars 2 launched.
This was done for mounts, the mounts are all that matters because we can monetize the hell out of them.
Anything interesting to add wont be added unless we can monetize the hell out of it.
We dont want to be tied to the first game.
We the dev's are like the Six gods, we can hear you but we dont care. You dont matter, unless you give us money and then you only matter marginally but we still wont listen to you.
We are lazy and like the cut corners.

This is A-net as a whole, and how I see them because they litterally have the gall to sell this as a STORY HEAVY EXPANSION with a DEEP AND RICH PLOT. This storyline was fucking horrible, you can tell easily where ALL the deving went and it was the fucking mounts. The armor is ugly on all but humans and sylvari ( more of the same), the plot is fucking horrible and even HoT managed to be more engaging ( wow new low guys). My character is no longer "my" Character, he is a cookie cutter version of the politically correct nature you want to take. Im not allowed to have him be a dick, and just be a savage to everyone and not give a shit once so ever because it will end up being me and me alone who handles the real issues.

I have to care about everyone equally, I have to respect whatever fucking stupid sexual partnership ( kas and Majory) or whatever little hopped up shit ( braham) that gets in my face because its "Politically correct". No This is a fantasy world where it SHOULD NOT function as we do today or how our conception of reality works, this world has dragons and living gods? Why cant my character be unique... why cant he just be what I made him out to be? Why cant the plot be more involved? Because you cant stand the idea of allowing something that could and I say "Could" offend someone to exist in your game. This expansion was horrible, I Was here for the story and nothing else and the story sucked dick... You could of done ANYTHING ELSE.

Have it be menzies as we have not really seen or met him yet, first appearance and his arc is closed.
Have Dhuume be messing with joko and thats why joko is not fully involved?
Vlast LIVES AND HELPS US instead of aurene and then we get to reunite the siblings so they can have some minor happiness for a while.
Let us get to know the characters?
Make us care?
Make balth( if not going with the menzies Idea) offer to help us kill krak and let vlast take his place, IF and only if we help him beat his brother and take back his rightful place with his kin. OR have him stay with humanity once he takes back the fissure of Woe, and be here as a supporting character who will help the humans with the centaur bullshit problem?
Have Krak talk to us? Like glint and Vlast did?
Give us some personality to go along with his ugly mug ( kraks)

I trusted you to do this right because Season 3 was good... This was bullshit, and I am almost ashamed to be a fan of your franchise because its literally just a laughing stock now. You have freaking nothing to call unique? Mounts base content in other games. You wana fight and ride your mounts anywhere? There are games that do that better. You want racial and class identities there are games that do that better. Your trying to hard to be a MoBa and need to choose what you want to be, either focus on pvp and no pve. Or focus on being an mmo- RPG..

The Path of Failure in Story & Lore [PoF Spoilers]

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