The Path of Failure in Story & Lore [PoF Spoilers]

[Djinn.9245]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Djinn.9245 said:War is about tactics and strategyNo, it literally is not. I don't know where you got the idea that it was, but primitive man waged war against themselves long before things like complex tactics and strategies were ever invented. War is, by definition, simply a conflict between two nations or states, or two entries within a nation or state. Be that organized like modern conflicts, or mindless slaughter, is irrelevant to the definition of war.

People who simply go attack someone else are not "at war" - if they are that disorganized that is simply an attack. And I never said it had to be complex tactics and strategies. But simply getting people together to attack at the same time rather than individually or in small groups is a strategy.

[Djinn.9245]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Luindu.2418 said:I think these are two sides of the same coin. But if "Balthaddon" is the bad side, like Sajuuk describes, then (imho) is a nonsense that he use strategy when he search absorb energy, create the Forged army, search for Glint's legacy and more, instead of faces Kralkatorrik directly, even in the Volcano vs Primordus he seems more direct than in the fight with kralka while he's waiting until his forged robot kill the EDBalthazar is far from the real badguy in PoF, the real baduy are the other gods.

I can't agree that someone who actively harms the people who worship him and wants to destroy an entire planet (plus all it's creatures) is not the "real" bad guy. 5 beings that kidnap one other being, even if they did it out of malice, are not worse than Balthazar.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Djinn.9245 said:I can't agree that someone who actively harms the people who worship him and wants to destroy an entire planet (plus all it's creatures) is not the "real" bad guy. 5 beings that kidnap one other being, even if they did it out of malice, are not worse than Balthazar.You seem to forget that the other 5 gods literally packed up and left, not just Tyria, but their own realms in the Mists, because of the Elder Dragons , without even attempting to warn any of their followers of the coming danger, and without attempting to do anything to get humanity off world like they did previously from humanity's original homeworld(which is how humans got to Tyria in the first place) They literally just left everyone to die because it was the easiest option available to them, and lore in PoF suggests they just went to another world to try again with new races.

Balthazar was the only one(besides maybe Lyssa if the speculation turn out to be true) that actually wanted to do anything to try to stop the Elder Dragons. Even if he went about it the wrong way before the gods imprisoned him, he is still the ONLY ONE who attempted anything, and he was punished for it, locked away in a dank armpit of the Mists, with the intention that he stay there for all time.

The other gods are guilty of letting genocide happen, Balthazar at least wanted to try to do something to stop it. So no, he isn't the real badguy, the other gods are, which is part of what makes PoF so great. Balthazar seems like the badguy because of what he did after being freed(which was honestly pretty bad), but in the grander scheme of the lore, Balthazar is actually the least terrible of the gods.

Also, you are wrong in that Balthazar wanted to destroy Tyria, he didn't, he wanted to kill the Elder Dragons, and take their power, so he could get revenge against the other gods. That Tyria would be destroyed from it does not make it his objective, but rather a side effect. The result =/= the objective.

The moment you have to start bold face lying about the motives of the antagonist is when you should realize that your argument has no weight to it.

[Djinn.9245]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Djinn.9245 said:I can't agree that someone who actively harms the people who worship him and wants to destroy an entire planet (plus all it's creatures) is not the "real" bad guy. 5 beings that kidnap one other being, even if they did it out of malice, are not worse than Balthazar.You seem to forget that the other 5 gods literally packed up and left, not just Tyria, but their own realms in the Mists, because of the Elder Dragons , without even attempting to warn any of their followers of the coming danger, and without attempting to do anything to get humanity off world like they did previously from humanity's original homeworld(which is how humans got to Tyria in the first place) They literally just left everyone to die because it was the easiest option available to them, and lore in PoF suggests they just went to another world to try again with new races.

No, I'm not forgetting anything. Leaving isn't the same as actively trying to destroy the planet for your own gain. And we don't have any actual evidence as to their motivations. We do have evidence about Balthazar - we saw and heard him directly.

Balthazar was the only one(besides maybe Lyssa if the speculation turn out to be true) that actually wanted to do anything to try to stop the Elder Dragons.

I guess you saw something different from me because in the story I saw Balthazar wasn't trying to stop the Elder Dragons for the good of humanity but because he wanted their power. And he didn't care at all if destroying the dragons for their power would destroy the planet and all of humanity.

As for "lying" about Balthazar's motive, when 1 motive = the other then they are effectively the same. There is nothing forcing him to destroy the Elder Dragons and he is perfectly aware that it would destroy the planet (and has stated that he doesn't care). So I don't see the point in bandying semantics regarding that situation.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Pax.3548 said:

The fact the first thing you say it that I didn't play gw1 tells me you're starting to get personal in the discussion here.

I know, from personal experience, that reading about something from secondhand sources can result in a very different impression than experiencing it yourself.

Much of the latter part of the Prophecies story, as well as some later elements, emphasise how the mursaat, while not gods, are something that is still a big step up from more ordinary races such as humans and the charr, such that multiple macguffins are needed in order to even stand a chance (without those macguffins, the power of the mursaat are such that only three mursaat are capable of destroying an entire charr army, although admittedly those three are probably among the most powerful of the mursaat). They are not gods, but are certainly a step above mere mortals.

@Pax.3548 said:

You're assuming their strategy required all the bloodstones to be intact and in the place they were, like they used the bloodstone from the bloodstone caves too right? the only use they give to the bloodstone was to power up their batteries (it was important I Know), and yet facing extintion in the hands of an enemy they probably knew couldn't face with their abilities they didn't even break one single bloodstone to use the power just because they thought chargering batteries was more important right? I'll end this part of the discussion here, as I get the impression you will start discussing less and insulting or typing "hints" about me not playing gw1 because I don't agree with you.

Another thing, you say mursaat were the most powerful being than even the most powerful heroes, yet lorewise you got that these very heroes broke through their defenses, killed hordes of mursaat (not only here but also in thunderhead keep) and even their leaders, and whats more, even defeated a wave of titans in order to kill the lich lord who controlled them. You focus on gameplay mechanics like it mattered on the lore? lol. You have the heart of a white mantle fanatic don't you, next you'll say to me they truly were gods amonst mere mortals.

Now who's getting personal?

There is a moment in the story where it's indicated that they were going to use the bloodstone in the bloodstone caves. Whether they actually did or not is ambiguous, but they certainly planned to. Ergo, it was valuable to their plans that it remain intact.

(This, incidentally, is assuming they could on short notice at all - the explosion of the Bloodstone Fen stone happened after an extended period of experimentation and tampering. The mursaat could probably have done it faster had they been present and wanted to, but it might not have been something they could do in the timeframe they had even if they wanted to.)

@Pax.3548 said:

You said Lazarus was damaged and thas true, but did he required magic when he was resurrected at the end of LS3? nope, did he looked damaged because of the corrupted aspect? nope, he was probably even more powerful than balth before he absorbed the bloodstone. That either means he recovered during his slumber or after his new soul division, or anet just left out that detail. We'll never know for true so making assumptions here and thinking them facts won't help your argument.

Here, though, you're justifying that the present story is 'better' based on evidence from the present story. This is circular reasoning: you're basically saying that what was shown in the present story means that the present story was the only route they could have taken.

At the start of LS3, Lazarus' status was an unknown. They could very easily have said that Lazarus needed the power of the bloodstone in order to fully rejuvenate himself. Or that he had some other device that allowed him to harness the magic for another purpose. There are a lot of ways that could have been explained while still having the big explosion that got reversed.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Presumably it's because the titans were an enemy the mursaat had never encountered. Remember, they had the door of kormalie shut so as not to deal with them in any way, somewhat indicating they've never faced any of the titans before. I also believe, but i could be wrong, that the titans were immune to the mursaat's most powerful weapon, spectral agony, meaning that if an enemy force were to overwhelm them, they'd fall back on that and get overrun. Just because it didn't work on titans doesn't mean that it couldn't work on elder dragons, but even if it didn't, that doesn't mean that the mursaat couldn't have figured out another avenue for defeating the elder dragons.

They also couldn't have ever faced the titans before, since the titans were forged from the combining of forces between Dhuum, Abaddon and Menzies (i forgot entirely the specifics regarding the titans and their creation).

Just because you know how to deal with a powerful enemy doesn't mean you automatically know how to deal with a weaker one that has a different set of strengths and weaknesses. It's pretty much saying "medieval england should have known how to deal with plague infested rats because they could defeat invaders" (or whatever more appropriate historical reference there is, forgive my lack of historical knowledge). Different enemy, different tactics needed.

The elder races appeared to know of the titans - the Ancient Seer mentions how they haven't changed in the Hell's Precipice bonus ("Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans."). Now, the Seers knowing of the titans does not necessarily mean the mursaat were familiar with their capabilities, but one of their contemporaries certainly did.

How this fits with the titans being created by Abaddon and his allies isn't really well explained. My feeling is that the method to create titans existed well before Abaddon's fall, and the alliance of dark gods was simply making use of something that had been invented in a previous conflict.>

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You seem to forget that the other 5 gods literally packed up and left, not just Tyria, but their own realms in the Mists, because of the Elder Dragons , without even attempting to warn any of their followers of the coming danger, and without attempting to do anything to get humanity off world like they did previously from humanity's original homeworld(which is how humans got to Tyria in the first place) They literally just left everyone to die because it was the easiest option available to them, and lore in PoF suggests they just went to another world to try again with new races.

Most of what the mortals know about the dragons comes from a scroll the gods left behind, actually, so it seems they did at least attempt to warn their followers.

As for the rest... the gods' motivations for leaving appears to be that they believe (rightly or wrongly) that if they directly intervened than win or lose, Tyria would be destroyed. Staying out gives mortals a chance to find another way out of the situation, or at the very least, survive long enough for the gods to prepare a new refuge to evacuate to. Essentially it's a matter of picking the least bad option.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@draxynnic.3719 said:I know, from personal experience, that reading about something from secondhand sources can result in a very different impression than experiencing it yourself.

Much of the latter part of the Prophecies story, as well as some later elements, emphasise how the mursaat, while not gods, are something that is still a big step up from more ordinary races such as humans and the charr, such that multiple macguffins are needed in order to even stand a chance (without those macguffins, the power of the mursaat are such that only three mursaat are capable of destroying an entire charr army, although admittedly those three are probably among the most powerful of the mursaat). They are not gods, but are certainly a step above mere mortals.The latter half of Proph only emphasize that they are very powerful beings, with very powerful magics, which is to be expected due to their age as a species. They are only a "step up" because they have had longer to develop their magical powers, which really doesn't make them a step in any sort of ascendant way, it just means they are an older civilization. The Mursaat's invisibility, and spectral powers, are no more then their equivalent to the Dwarven civilization's Great Dwarf spell. All it is is magic we don't understand.

And, as humanity and the other races learn to develop their magics, they too should be able to learn how to use the Mursaat's powers for themselves, which was rather well handled in Living World Season 3, which gave us the ability to learn a weakened form of Spectral Agony when downed, and actually goes into explanation as to how that spell works. Humans, Charr, Asura, Sylvari, Norn, all of them CAN do everything the Mursaat can, they just don't know how. And, had humans known how to use Spectral Agony back during the Charr/Human wars of the GW1 era, they too could have achieved the same results the Mursaat did, all on their own.

Mursaat are nothing more then modern day people with cellphones who are walking around alongside people from George Washington's time.

@draxynnic.3719 said:Most of what the mortals know about the dragons comes from a scroll the gods left behind, actually, so it seems they did at least attempt to warn their followers.That isn't a valid line of reasoning. The gods horded much knowledge about the dragons, and the elder races attempts to counter them, in Arah(as seen in the Arah explorable modes), but no human knew that stuff was there. The Scroll only indicates that the gods took their own notes on what they found out about the dragons via their own study of the elder races magics. That said scroll was eventually found by someone later, and that information disseminated among the populace,doesn't mean the gods tried to tell anyone.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:And, as humanity and the other races learn to develop their magics, they too should be able to learn how to use the Mursaat's powers for themselves, which was rather well handled in Living World Season 3, which gave us the ability to learn a weakened form of Spectral Agony when downed, and actually goes into explanation as to how that spell works. Humans, Charr, Asura, Sylvari, Norn, all of them CAN do everything the Mursaat can, they just don't know how. And, had humans known how to use Spectral Agony back during the Charr/Human wars of the GW1 era, they too could have achieved the same results the Mursaat did, all on their own.

Just a slight correction here, we don't actually know how spectral agony completely works and we can't cast it on our own, we use a signet forged from the jade constructs to cast spectral agony when we're 'one step into the mists'.

Here's what we learn:

Exemplar Caulden: The mursaat's ability to phase between our world and the Mists allows them to tap into magics unobtainable in the mortal realm.Exemplar Caulden: Spectral Agony is the pinnacle of this ability. And we think we've found a way to harness a form of it for our own use.Exemplar Caulden: You see, unlike a mursaat or their construct, you can't phase between our world and the Mists at will.Exemplar Caulden: But while close to death, you've already got one foot in the Mists... "At death's door," as they say.Exemplar Caulden: Using remnants of jade constructs, I've fashioned a sigil that allows you to cast Spectral Agony when you're near death.Exemplar Caulden: But I'll warn you: the longer you tap into this power, the more it will pull you into the next world. Use it wisely.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exemplar_Caulden

(Odd use of the word sigil here, since the terminology for this kind of thing has always been signets since GW1 and the skill itself is called a signet)

We know how it vaguely works, we don't know the specifics of it as we can't phase between worlds like the mursaat, but we're given a tool crafted from the original creations of the mursaat who knew the exact specifics of it. Essentially, we're given a gun made out of working spare parts and told how to pull the trigger. We don't know how the spare parts work exactly, but we know the very general idea and the end result.

@draxynnic.3719 said:The elder races appeared to know of the titans - the Ancient Seer mentions how they haven't changed in the Hell's Precipice bonus ("Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans."). Now, the Seers knowing of the titans does not necessarily mean the mursaat were familiar with their capabilities, but one of their contemporaries certainly did.

How this fits with the titans being created by Abaddon and his allies isn't really well explained. My feeling is that the method to create titans existed well before Abaddon's fall, and the alliance of dark gods was simply making use of something that had been invented in a previous conflict.

Ah, thanks for that info. And the seers, of all races, would have every reason not to tell the mursaat what the titans are or their capabilities.

And seeing how the guild wars franchise has a history of using stuff previously developed (Forgotten cleansing ritual, the aforementioned signet of agony, Balthazar stealing the techniques of the forgotten to make the forged), it makes sense that this could happen, especially with the god of secrets involved.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@castlemanic.3198 said:Just a slight correction here, we don't actually know how spectral agony completely worksI never said we did, hence why I said we learn a weakened form of it, had we known how it completely works, we could have just used it instead of a weakened form of it.

Nice job rebutting something that was never said.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I never said we did, hence why I said we learn a weakened form of it, had we known how it completely works, we could have just used it instead of a weakened form of it.

Nice job rebutting something that was never said.

Uh.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:And, as humanity and the other races learn to develop their magics, they too should be able to learn how to use the Mursaat's powers for themselves, which was rather well handled in Living World Season 3, which gave us the ability to learn a weakened form of Spectral Agony when downed, and actually goes into explanation as to how that spell works.

I was disputing the very fact that we learned anything to the degree that you mentioned. Not only do we not use spectral agony (we use a signet that casts spectral agony, there's a very real and legitimate difference), we also barely gain any explanation as to how that spell works.

Exemplar Caulden: The mursaat's ability to phase between our world and the Mists allows them to tap into magics unobtainable in the mortal realm.Exemplar Caulden: Spectral Agony is the pinnacle of this ability.

EDIT: Whatever imaginary world you're living in, I want no part of. There's no point wasting more time in this discussion with you. The facts clearly work against you.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@castlemanic.3198 said:Uh.Again, thank you for proving exactly what I said.