VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 no, they have real immunity to condis.....Putrid MarkDeathly SwarmConsume ConditionsPlague Signettraits:spiteful renewalplague sendingshrouded removalnecromantic corruptionunholy martyrspeed of shadowsrelentless pursuitabravisve gritfor evade:FleshwurmRipple of Horrorseriously... with all that and the insane high barrier, necros are the last class who has anything to complain about. Even if they lost 10k hp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 What it comes down to me is when you take other classes skill and look at how they compare to ele. Often the other classes skills do more effect dmg and are on lower cd as well as being on a class whom will always have more armor or hp then ele. Its sicking how badly ele and other classes are balanced in this game.My biggest problem is FB vs tempest or manta vs shouts. At best a shout on tempest will only be on part with one use of a manta (most of the time its worst) but manta have 3 use and the 3ed use may put it on a much longer cd but as such a significant effect that you could easily replaces 3 skills tempest with one FB with just on manta.Clears are the best example at best you can pull off 3 clears on shouts that fire water tempest set up where your getting a clear on the aura an clear on the reg from the aura and the shout rune. Mantra of Lore clears 2 condis with a reg on a 12 sec cd with 3 use 3ed being a big Conditions Converted to Boons 5. That with one trate line and one skill. Where ele must have one skill one rune set and 3 trate lines.Lets add that FB has stab and quickness support something tempest dose not as well as being much more tankly and has more passive support effects.How is this fair at any level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPuppy.8970 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 Plus near perma weakness application to mitigate. Eles don't have that many blocks either, not on weapon skill anyway, and the only invuln is Focus Earth 5, nobody takes Mist Form as a utility. Taking Focus means poor mobility/damage and you cant pressure enough to force a retreat. In the end you die anyway. Oh and let's not forget ele rooting forever lasting cast times with biggest tells in the history of the franchise. And no quickness of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 @Gaile Gray.6029 said:Those of you who care about the ele and its balance, please join this thread and continue to add your thoughtful and constructive comments. Thank you.This is going no where if the player base dose not get feed back from the devs at all are our ideals crazy are they right on point we cant give good feed back to a game with out feed back from the devs.The eye needs a brain to tell it what to look at and if it needs to foces to see better or the eye is just a hole in the head letting in pointless info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixit.7189 Posted October 7, 2018 Share Posted October 7, 2018 I wish ele wasn't so squishy outside of support builds. Like one single small mistake and it's game over. I can't say this is the case for the other profs I play, all of them are 2x more survivable than my ele while dishing out as much or more damage. For all the work it takes to play the ele and the fact that a light breeze will end in a dirt nap, the pay off is really disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevice.2751 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:no, they have real immunity to condis.....Putrid MarkDeathly SwarmConsume ConditionsPlague Signetthats not real immunity to conditions. Those all have have cast times and/or have to land on enemies. If we're blinded or if they evade/block or idk.. have diamond skin.. hows that go again? Nice try though.traits:spiteful renewalplague sendingshrouded removalnecromantic corruptionunholy martyrspeed of shadowsrelentless pursuitabravisve grityet diamond skin and water still outclasses any condi removal on necro since, again, you need a target for half that stuff. Half the time they don't work.for evade:FleshwurmRipple of Horrorflesh worm isnt an evade. it also requires a set-up and so it will hardly every be used twice in a drawn-out fight (because of attrition?)maybe play necro first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkaile.5604 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 @"TheDevice.2751" While he worded his post poorly, the point I take away is that necro has an easier time dealing with condis and it isn't necessarily required to take specific trait lines, giving up damage, in order to have reasonable condi cleansing. He forgot to list some utilities, btw. Necros have an easier time including cleanses (or transfer), damage, and sustain in one build without crippling their efficacy. Good luck making condis stick to and kill a necro if it actually focuses its build on condi cleansing and sustain.As for Diamond Skin, I suggest you read up on it. You seem to be behind the times, way behind. Here's a link for your convenience.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diamond_SkinWe're talking about the squishiest class in the game having to take hits to remove one condi at a time while remaining above 75% hp for the trait to trigger on a 1sec icd. It's rarely used in challenging settings and with good reason. Even when it is taken, that is only done because it's the best of the worst.Maybe play ele first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zHasgard.9827 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Wow, this topic still alive. Guys, for real... anet dont care about balance, just sit and wait for next 3 months and pray for those little changes may affect weaver gameplay in like 1 year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 @zHasgard.9827 said:Wow, this topic still alive. Guys, for real... anet dont care about balance, just sit and wait for next 3 months and pray for those little changes may affect weaver gameplay in like 1 year.With all honesty, PvE ele balance improved noticeably with the Air line changes. So yeah, they do care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mini Crinny.6190 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 @Feanor.2358 said:@zHasgard.9827 said:Wow, this topic still alive. Guys, for real... anet dont care about balance, just sit and wait for next 3 months and pray for those little changes may affect weaver gameplay in like 1 year.With all honesty, PvE ele balance improved noticeably with the Air line changes. So yeah, they do care.That's all well and good but i wish anet would understand that PvP and WvW exist in this game too.. I'd like to play Ele in these game modes and feel like i'm doing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazySummer.2568 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 people still trying to make suggestions in this thread? it's basically balance team's spam folder at this point.it's highly likely that people can make all sorts of comments trash talking the team in here that will usually get them banned but it doesnt happen because this thread (and this subforum) is likely set to be hidden from display on dev team's UI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 @Mini Crinny.6190 said:@Feanor.2358 said:@zHasgard.9827 said:Wow, this topic still alive. Guys, for real... anet dont care about balance, just sit and wait for next 3 months and pray for those little changes may affect weaver gameplay in like 1 year.With all honesty, PvE ele balance improved noticeably with the Air line changes. So yeah, they do care.That's all well and good but i wish anet would understand that PvP and WvW exist in this game too.. I'd like to play Ele in these game modes and feel like i'm doing somethingYeah well, I can get behind you on that. But it doesn't mean they don't care, simply that the problem is more complex in pvp environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usagi.4835 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 characters too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepster.4275 Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 This thread has its use, and its doing a great job: People spam their ideas to one place instead of multiple threads so its easier to see what to not read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis.8036 Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 @Zuko.7132 said:Elementalist is in a bad place in pvp for two reasons.Elementalist base stats and active defenses are terrible forcing eles to run survivability amulets, which makes them uselessElementalists don't do anything better than another profession can and have weak traits.How to fix?Give each core trait line a purpose that provides a viable role for ele.Boost Elementalist survivability through trait linesFireFire trait line will be focused around might/damage, auras, and boon removalMinor TraitsBurning Precision: 50% Chance on crit to inflict burning for 2 seconds, 3 sec icd per enemy, Sunspot: Same as before except it now removes a boon from all enemies it hits.Burning Rage: keep the same, but add burning a foe grants 10 endurance, 5 sec icdAdeptEmpowering Aura: Auras grant 200 power, effect does not stackExtreme Might10 extra Power and Condition Damage per might stack for ele onlyCleansing Flames: Burning an enemy removes a boon, 5 sec icd per enemyMasterPyromancers Training, keep the same, Smoothering Auras: keep the same, but add removing a condition from an ally grants 10 enduranceCauterize: Removing a boon inflicts damageGrandmasterBurning Strength: Gain 3 stacks of might for 10 seconds when you burn a foe. 2 sec icd. Deal 10% more damage while under the effects of might.Explosive Purification: Create a fire explosion when striking a burning enemy that deals damage and removes 5 boons from all enemies hit. 15 sec icd.Powerful Aura: Any aura you grant yourself is granted to nearby allies, auras grant fury and mightAirAir trait line will be focused on vulnerability, cc, mobility, and critical damageMinorZephyr's Speed: Keep the 25% movement speed buff but also add 3 seconds of superspeed upon attuning to air.Electric Discharge: Keep the SameRaging Storm: keep the sameAdeptZephyr's boon: Fury grants an extra 10% crit chanceCrippling Weakness: Applying Weakness inflicts cripple and 3 stacks of vuln for 3 secondsSpeedy Demise: Deal 7% more damage while under the effects of superspeedMasterAeromancers Training: Keep the sameTempest Defense: Keep the sameInscription: Keep the same, but add casting a glyph grants a buff to nearby allies that causes their next 3 attacks cast Electric dischargeGrandmasterFresh air: keep the sameLighting rod: keep the same, but add electric discharge dazes for 1 secondBolt to the Heart: Electric discharge now applies 7 stacks of vuln for 10 seconds and Critical hits have a 50% chance to cast electric discharge 3 sec icd, the Electric Discharge applies a five second effect on your target that increases your damage to them by 15%EarthEarth trait line will be focused on personal protection, stability, signets, blasts, and condition protectionMinorProtective Blast: Gain Protection for 3 seconds when performing a blast finisherEarthen Blast: keep the same but is now a blast finisherGeomancer's defense: Keep the sameAdeptElemental Shielding: keep the sameEarth's embrace: keep the sameStable Signet: Signets grant 1 stack of stability for four secondsMasterGeomancer's Training: keep the sameRock Solid: Gain stability on attuning to earth, stability grants 200 toughnessPunishing Blast: Blast finishes cripple and weaken foes for 2 secondsGrandmasterStone Heart: Protection reduces critical damage to the elementalist by 33% aoe 5 sec weakness when critically hit, 20 sec icdWritten in Stone: Keep the sameDiamond Skin: Remove a condition when struck while under the effects of protection receive 33% less condition damage while under the effects of protection(3 sec icd)WaterWater trait line is focused around support through healing, condition hate, and chillMinorSoothing Mist: keep the sameHealing Ripple: keep the sameAquatic Healing: Healing is 15% more effective both to allies and youAdeptSoothing Ice: Keep the SameConditional Healing: Heal yourself and allies 2% more for each condition on them or youStop, Drop, and Roll: Dodging removes a damaging and non-damaging condition from nearby alliesMasterSoothing Disruption: Keep the Same but boons are now aoeCool Relief: Foes you chill pulse healing to allies while chilledAquamancers training: Keep the same, but remove damage boost and add remove condi from allies on water attuneGrandmasterCleansing Water: Keep the sameSoothing Power: Soothing Mist is 100% more effective, Healing to allies is 25% more effectiveChilling Vulnerability: Gain frost aura for 4 seconds on attuning to water, Applying chill applies 3 stacks of vulnerablity for 8 seconds, Vulnerability now reduces the damage the enemy deals instead of increasing the damage they takeArcaneArcane trait line focuses on boons, evasion, arcanes skills, and random stuffMinorArcane Prowess: keep as isElemental Attunement: Keep as isElemental Enchantment: Keep as isAdeptRenewing stamina: keep as isArcane Precision: keep as isArcane Abatement: increase healingMasterArcane Ressurection: Good for support I guess, leave alone.Elemental Contingency: leave as isFinal Shielding: Leave as isGrandmasterEvasive Arcana: Leave as isElemental Surge: Leave as isBountiful Strength: Deal increased damage for each boon you have. Gain 2 endurance when you gain a boon.TempestDo tempest stuff betterMinorSingularity: Keep the sameStable Conduit: Gain stability when starting an overloadHardy Conduit: Keep the sameAdeptUnstable Conduit: keep the sameLatent Stamina: Applying vigor grants 20 stamina, Gain Vigor when starting and completing an overload.Gale Song: Keep as is, but add shouts grants 3 seconds of quickness and 5 seconds of swiftnessMasterInvigorating Torrents: Keep as isTempestuous Aria: Reduce shout cooldown by 20% the next attack of allies affected by a shout inflict 3 seconds of cripple and weakness and slowSpeedy Conduit: Overloads are available two seconds earlier and channel 25% fasterGrandmasterUnstoppable Singularity: keep as is, but add overloads grant superspeed and inflict cripple chill and immob for 3 seconds upon completion.Elemental Bastion: keep as isImbued Melodies: Gain 300 concentration, completing an overload grants Protection, aegis, stability, and regen for 3 seconds to allies.WeaverDon't really know what to do with this, but I have a few ideas.Woven stride: Gaining swiftness or superspeed removes condis, nix the regen, heal while under the effects of swiftnessBoost barrier application all aroundI like a lot of these ideas, but there are some, especially for tempest, i´d like to suggest.When I compare tempest to weaver, then I see the possibility for ele to play either support (with tempest) Or pure dmg (with weaver), since the dmg output from tempest is far behind the dmg outpot from weaver.But when I look at most used support classes like chrono/druid in pve, or firebrand in pvp/wvw, I come to notice that they just have to sneeze into their party to grant them a quantouple amount of boons.So with tempest I wonder why the overcharges won´t be able to grant boons to allies surrounding the ele?For example overload earth may grant stability, protection and resistance to party members, overload air applies swiftness, quickness and alacrity, overloading water removes conditions while granting regen and vigor, and overloading fire grants fury, might and retaliation.These boons may have a duration of 3sec with four ticks while overcharging. This may seem strong, but if I think about the duration of the cast the overcharges have, this seems most reasonable to me.Further to the transmuting of auras. This was a nice idea, but why can´t tempest transmute the auras applied by shouts with the shouts? this would underline the aura-aspect from tempest and make the shouts feel like something. For now the shouts don´t appear rather strong to me as you have to watch multiple synergetic aspects fro other traitlines as well to take great use of them. Transmuting auras on all affected allies would give the entire thing a complete different feeling^.^As for weaver, I´m actually quite happy with this class in pve, but the dmg got nerfed a bit too vast compared to the skill it needs to master. While I´m quite thankful for the ability to play sword dagger to deal damage, the nerfs on staff were ridiculous at some point. the viability of scepter is very debatable, same goes to dagger mainhand.In pvp I come to wonder why weaver needs to perform either as fresh air, which isn´t really a rewarding way of playing it, or as a sword/dagger hybrid. Which may be a bit sturdier, but the work this weaver can do is better performed by other classes. In roaming a mesmer or thief works better, same goes with spellbreaker/soulbeast, and in team fights it gets outperformed by holosmith/scourge. Fighting against a deadeye is a pain in the butt, but this is something many classes have to experience^^. So you have the opportunity to choose either mediocre burst damage, which is mostly done better by mesmer or engineer, or you´re tanky but not as tanky as a druid/soulbeat/spellbreaker, compelling you to linger with mediocre viablity during the entire match.As for arcane, I agree that most of the traits are fine the way they are, but I wonder whether elemental contingency could be changed, causing the boons you generate to affect more allied targets, so the boons you generate can affect 10 allied targets. The ability to affect 10 targets is something i´d like to see in more professions in general. Give the scourge the ability to apply barrier to 10 targets, give the firebrand the ability to grant his boons to 10 targets, same goes to tempest. We saw the beginning of this in the herald changes. I´d love to see the acceptance of more support classes in raids except for druid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kako.1930 Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Does anyone else hear that?Echo.... Echo.... Echo..... Echo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fistindavion.2568 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 @"LightBrave.5638" said:The problems with WvW for Tempest support are that they are boxed out in their class. Like the other support classes FB currently holds far too much weight over any other support class to hold ENOUGH value. Hence the phrase, "meta or gtfo". All support classes need boosting in general in wvw so people have options for support classes besides FB. I would like to see a barrier option added to AURAS. This would be a good rework for auras in general. If that sounds too unreasonable then a general reworking for auras in any form would be appreciated. You could add longer aura uptime, or shorter uptime but 10 targets. I feel for tempest, overloading and auras are the two areas that need buffing for wvw as thats what made them unique. The reason why i targeted support for wvw is obvious, people in general are getting tired of running 2 FB groups in wvw. It's a class that has to be played full minstrel and you spend all your time in books 2 and 3 and then even supporting with all your utilities and weapon skills. Support tempest was a good edition but it got outclasses in POF. Either buff Weaver support OPTIONS significantly at the expense of their damage output, or bring back core/hot support.Thatswhy I don't have legendary armor yet....meta or gtfo. No one takes ele if they got a fb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoSpyro.1780 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 How to fix ele staff 101: Allow autoattack missiles to track targets, increase auto base speed 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allarius.5670 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Scepter lacks sufficient defensive mechanisms to provide alternative playstyles and suffers from long delays on damage skills to provide realistic counter offense. This has consistently forced scepter into Fresh Air to see any major use and consequently restricts viable build alternatives for the Elementalist.A few suggestions to improve scepter playability in competitive modes by increasing defensive options to improve its viability and role diversity when compared to dagger with minimal impact on PvE. Fire, Scepter 2: Ashen Armor - 2 sec channel, 10 sec cd. Block the next attack and counter by burning and blinding nearby foes.Damage: (1.00)Burn (5 sec)Blind (5 sec)Number of Targets: 5Evade: 1/2 secBlock Duration: 2 secRadius: 240Fire, Scepter 2 sequence: Dragon's ToothWater, Scepter 2: Shatterstone - 1/2 sec cast, 5 sec cd. Cast a shatterstone that will chill foes and make them vulnerable when they trigger it.Damage: (1.66)Vulnerability: 5, 15 secChill: 1 secArming Time: 1 secDuration: 15 secNumber of Targets: 5Radius: 180Blast Radius: 240Range: 900Rock Barrier cast time reduced from 1 sec to 1/2 sec and cooldown reduced from 15 sec to 10 sec. Earth, Scepter 3: Sand Shield - 2 sec channel, 15 sec cooldown. Block the next attack and grant nearby allies a barrier.Barrier: 778 (0.18)Tectonic Shift: 2 sec, Gain barrier each second.Evade: 1/2 secBlock Duration: 2 secNumber of Allies: 5Radius: 240Earth, Scepter 3 sequence: Dust Devil - Bleed and Blind your foes with a blast of sand.Damage: (0.4)Bleed: 3, 8 secBlind: 10 secPiercingNumber of Targets: 5Range: 900 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stallic.2397 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 @Allarius.5670 said:Scepter lacks sufficient defensive mechanisms to provide alternative playstyles and suffers from long delays on damage skills to provide realistic counter offense. This has consistently forced scepter into Fresh Air to see any major use and consequently restricts viable build alternatives for the Elementalist.A few suggestions to improve scepter playability in competitive modes by increasing defensive options to improve its viability and role diversity when compared to dagger with minimal impact on PvE. Fire, Scepter 2: Ashen Armor - 2 sec channel, 10 sec cd. Block the next attack and counter by burning and blinding nearby foes.Damage: (1.00)Burn (5 sec)Blind (5 sec)Number of Targets: 5Evade: 1/2 secBlock Duration: 2 secRadius: 240Fire, Scepter 2 sequence: Dragon's ToothWater, Scepter 2: Shatterstone - 1/2 sec cast, 5 sec cd. Cast a shatterstone that will chill foes and make them vulnerable when they trigger it.Damage: (1.66)Vulnerability: 5, 15 secChill: 1 secArming Time: 1 secDuration: 15 secNumber of Targets: 5Radius: 180Blast Radius: 240Range: 900Rock Barrier cast time reduced from 1 sec to 1/2 sec and cooldown reduced from 15 sec to 10 sec. Earth, Scepter 3: Sand Shield - 2 sec channel, 15 sec cooldown. Block the next attack and grant nearby allies a barrier.Barrier: 778 (0.18)Tectonic Shift: 2 sec, Gain barrier each second.Evade: 1/2 secBlock Duration: 2 secNumber of Allies: 5Radius: 240Earth, Scepter 3 sequence: Dust Devil - Bleed and Blind your foes with a blast of sand.Damage: (0.4)Bleed: 3, 8 secBlind: 10 secPiercingNumber of Targets: 5Range: 900I never thought of it but it does make you wonder why scepter has two blinds in Air and Earth, yet we have no blocks. Mesmer scepter has at least one block. If the Dev's take at least one suggestion from this post, at least give Ashen Armor or Sand shield mentioned above- give us a little bit of defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finngarad.9746 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Hmmm, I really love my Elem, I really do and it is my main class since I started the game 6 years ago but..... I have been trying out a variety different classes PvE builds on the Meta battle website site and I have to say that everyone of them, compared to the Elem, have amazing self sustain and damage output with very little button presses while all wearing zerker armour. Even using the PvE Tempest build on the website just doesn't seem as good as the other classes. I know it's just PvE, but hey that's what I like and I'm very aware of the Elem's problems in PvP and WvW so don't hate me for it. It just feels like you have to try twice as hard on an Elem to get the same amount of damage and survivability as the other classes and if you make one mistake on your elem, it's dirt nap time. After playing the Soulbeast boon berserker for the last few hours, I kinda feel that it makes me want to say bye-bye to my Elem as the Soulbeast class was ridiculously good. I really do hope that Anet sorts out our class as it just feels so lacking and I don't envy them in trying to fix it but I do know it needs fixing. I really think the Jack of all trades and master of none has done this class no favours as the game has moved on from its original vision and concepts that allowed the class to shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bladestrom.6425 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 the ONLY place that ele is remotely competitive is pve raiding, and its about time the devs doing the balance relaxed the tunnel vision on this niche and realised the there is no smoke without fire - clearly ele has been in a bads place for a very very long time, and everyone apart from them can see it. They are either wagging the dog by the tail or incompetent from an analytical pov (ignoring the incredibly lengthy dev pipeline timescales which is another issue altogether) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milosz.5938 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 I think ... and Im really sad for that reason... that our friends from ANEt are not interested in that post anymore.... and in anyother simillar posts that touch any topic about reconstructing, buffing elementalist. Only they notice posts about nerfing elementalists. Sad :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kako.1930 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 @Milosz.5938 said:I think ... and Im really sad for that reason... that our friends from ANEt are not interested in that post anymore.... and in anyother simillar posts that touch any topic about reconstructing, buffing elementalist. Only they notice posts about nerfing elementalists. Sad :(They never were. These posts were taken from various other areas that might get more attention, merged together, and stuck here so that nobody has to look at them. It's sad to see people keep posting as if someone is actually reading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega.5791 Posted October 15, 2018 Share Posted October 15, 2018 @Kako.1930 said:@Milosz.5938 said:I think ... and Im really sad for that reason... that our friends from ANEt are not interested in that post anymore.... and in anyother simillar posts that touch any topic about reconstructing, buffing elementalist. Only they notice posts about nerfing elementalists. Sad :(They never were. These posts were taken from various other areas that might get more attention, merged together, and stuck here so that nobody has to look at them. It's sad to see people keep posting as if someone is actually reading them. Yeah, it was a clever trick, I'll give them that. Fake some attention, wait it out... at some point ele players must give up, right? We're past that now.^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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