Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Concerns about Elementalist


Recommended Posts

@Feanor.2358 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Yes, I said " when you had some babysitters to keep you alive". It's not like core Ele with Staff was over-performing, or that Tempest with Staff was over-performing. It was specifically Weaver with a Staff that was the "problem" (in quotes of course), in that case, you either nerf Weaver itself, or you nerf the skills in the rotation that give a damage boost, but aren't used by other builds, so as not to upset the rest of the game.

Would removing conjures from the game (or nerfing their skills) reduce Weaver dps so it's no longer the undisputed king of damage? Since they are completely worthless in any other part of the game, the "damage" to any other playstyle would be essentially zero. This would result in both reducing the damage of Weavers in content with babysitters AND keep the rest of the game as is. Wouldn't that be preferred compared to nerfing the skills that are used everywhere and in every Staff Elementalist build (even non-Weavers) out there?

Conjures are an essential part of any pve ele dps build. Both core and tempest build will utilize them, so the effect would be the same in the end. Actually a lot of the harm done was because of the introduced damage falloff on icebow and lh 4. Of course Lava font nerf didn't help, as Staff is the damage weapon of choice for all of them either. But the nerfed conjures hurt the already bad sc/wh tempest for instance.

And those being essential in pve ele dps builds is part of the problem, because they aren't essential (not even useful) in any other ele build (yes they do exist). It's what is holding back the Elementalist, sc/wh needs buffs of its own, Scepter has been on bad tier for years. I'm not sure any build being "saved" by conjures is a good idea.

No the effect wouldn't be the same because conjures add bloat and complexity to the rotations. Even if the result in dps numbers was the same if they nerfed conjures instead of Lava Font/ Meteor Shower, the end result would've been a much more fluid spec to play, with less complex rotations, while at the same time, the builds that do not utilize conjures wouldn't be affected. Now, they nerfed the dps, require the SAME complex rotation AND nerfed every build that uses Staff.

Adding complexity isn't a bad thing. It's why I prefer to play ele over anything else. If I want to play a braindead dps, I have plenty to pick from. It is good to have intricate, complex builds that reward you accordingly for playing them. It's just the reward part that got screwed up. Complexity is fine. It's a feature.

Yes complexity is good and having a complex rotation is great.First: as already established, you can't follow that complex rotation everywhere. Just try following that Ele rotation outside Raids/FractalsSecond: that complex rotation has skills that are used in all Staff builds (like Lava Font), or are only specifically parts of that rotation (like Firestorm)Third: the problem comes when the developers see the dps being out of line, this gives them two choices: reduce the dps of the global skills (like they did) or reduce the dps of skills specific to that rotation.

Simple question (that I kind of repeat): Which one is better?I'm arguing that reducing the damage of core/global skills isn't the way to go, if a rotation is over-performing and is using skills not used elsewhere then the most valid thing to do is reduce the damage of those skills, so as to have a minimal effect on the rest of the profession's play style, especially if in the rest of the game the profession is clearly under-performing and needs help. That's my stance on the subject and why I think the way they are going about it is wrong.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 986
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

The problem is, is the only build Weavers can play.Now Staff is just a item for Fashion Wars, FA was nerfed to the ground, D/D weaver is a joke

There's nothing left for Eles

Link to post
Share on other sites

Diamond Skin: Grant resistance for 2 seconds when casting a signet. Signets maintain passive effects while recharging. Signets have a reduced recharge.

I agree with most of your suggestion except this one. Why signet should be exclusive to earth ? It means you can't play with good signets if you specialize in Fire or Air, yet there are signet of fire and signet of air. Distributing signet bonus in the other specialization seems much more interesting to me. Note that I think the same for conjure weapons or glyphs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

You should watch his videos in legendary division where he’d die 4 times in one match. The thing is, that build is the only viable sub-meta build elementalist has and it still

  1. Does impeccably low damage
  2. Has abysmal mobility
  3. Is less of a bunker than spell breaker or firebrand
  4. Has no other viable traits or weapons that can be used to make it work
  5. Can be killed by a reaper of equal skill at high end tiers
  6. And is very unfun to play, and the second bunker builds else have been forced to play since HoT.
Link to post
Share on other sites

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

Lol, that's cute. I can compile a montage of cherry-picked footage of myself killing bronzes, bots and afkers on my ele, too. It doesn't make it 'super op.'

This is the reality of ele's value in PvP:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/51552/poll-current-most-useless-profession#latest

Link to post
Share on other sites

In WvW/PvP: The decrease in damage on lava font should not have been made in PvP/WvW, but treated differently. Nobody in their right mind is going to stay inside a lava font. Besides, it's easy to avoid its damage since it doesn't tick instantly. Also the tooltip on lava font duration seems incorrect, in reality lava fonts duration is shorter than what the tooltip says.

All game modes: Unravel is quite useless. On activation, it's good for just one use (one attunement swap), can go into a 2nd attunement if you don't miss it. The "biggest" gain I see from this skill is that double attuning with unravel also activates elements of rage. Like said so many times, the skill could work on F5, but i'd rather it won't because that would probably go at the cost of something else to keep the class "balanced". And I can't think of many situations where I would need unravel in the first place beside after using meteor shower or while casting pile driver. But with F5 it becomes too easy.

In WvW: Tempest is victim of expansions. Other classes are basically better at what tempest is good at on a support build. Beside the pirate ship meta (somewhat less now after much needed nerfs to scourge) the support tempest has a hard time at doing their job. The entire concept on the use of aura's has to be brought in par with the other existing class niches so it becomes viable to play again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

Yeah, but the standard isn't cellofrag-level. Celly is in fact a top tier player. Try weaver yourself, and you will quickly notice how much skill this build requires, for almost no reward in return. For a sword weaver to be effective, you can't be low skilled, you can't be mid skilled, you need to be high-skilled at minimum in order to kill someone at all. You need to know all the ins and out of your elemental switch, how to time them accordingly (both offense and defense), while at the same time being fast to know what skills you need and switch elementals every few seconds (otherwise you just die). Also, you need to know all of your CD, otherwise you switch to the wrong element. Timing also needs to be perfect, because your damage is so low you can't kill anything otherwise. Chain CC after baiting out all your enemies stunbreaks, teleports, stability etc. (absolute 2012 style) is the only way to kill someone. Baiting might be still a major part of the game, but for a weaver, it's a must have. Other classes don't need to do this anymore thanks to their one shot combos and high passive and active defense.

Edit: Also do note that while doing all that you need to know your blast combofields. There are long and short skill combos for that, and is covered in celly's video. Without the combo-blast, your sustain will fall too low to survive, and your damage isn't enough depite the CC combo. Might stacking and heal blasts are an absolute must. Might stack needs to be high during your burst after CC combo.

Thus, Balance should be never about the top tier players, but around your average player. Most other classes are balanced around that fact, heck even thief is easier to play despite my lack of skill for that class. Last time I played the classic engineer build and still have an easier time than playing a sword weaver.

I don't mind hard to learn classes, but they need to be equally as rewarding.

And do note that even cellofrag doesn't play full zerk/marauder, despite being a top tier player, because he will be too squishy otherwise.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@VanWilder.6923 said:

@"alez.2137" said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

I never played weaver, so I cannot do what this guys does. But, unless he is using cheats (he isnt) you all experiences Eles can play like him. I dont want to talk about other classes that really need improvements because this will distort what Im saying, but Imho, you Eles atm have a very strong PVE dps (top 3 class), and a very strong WvW roamer, and ofc very strong sPvP duelist.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@alez.2137 said:

@alez.2137 said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

I never played weaver, so I cannot do what this guys does. But, unless he is using cheats (he isnt) you all experiences Eles can play like him. I dont want to talk about other classes that really need improvements because this will distort what Im saying, but Imho, you Eles atm have a very strong PVE dps (top 3 class), and a very strong WvW roamer, and ofc very strong sPvP duelist.

Translation: I don't play it, never have, and have no clue what I'm talking about, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Lol. Moving on...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay so my new concern is that are you blatantly ignoring our pleas and suggestions and buffing the wrong things in the wrong ways in attempt to appease us or in complete disregard of our wants? Because honestly, you clearly care more about buffing herald, which was already viable, than you do ele, which is not. Like should I just quit gw2 now? Are you going to buff ele in the next balance patch in 2 months? Like what is the purpose?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we all can agree that Ele should be hard to play. The problem is the net effect should at least be the same as what some other professions can accomplish.The main underlying issues are:

  • Ineffective skills, it's ok to have ineffective skills but the net effect must be the same for Ele to be competitive. Currently, the Ele's net potential in it's >20 weapon skills in combination is WEAKER than other professions 10 skills due to cast times and purely the functionality of the skills being too WEAK as other professions get powercreeped new skills.
  • Trait dependency on damage traits. No other classes depend so much on so many +% damage traits to do more damage yet even when bringing all of them you can't even reach top DPS even in OPTIMAL PVE CONDITIONS anymore. Taking survivability traits hurt damage too much while taking all of them don't exactly let you kill things THAT much faster than any other professions.

At the end of the day, what do you want Ele to be able to accomplish?Everywhere:Why is it OK for Druid/Herald/Firebrand to support better than Tempest Ele both in net healing and boons? Where is the 'jack-of-all trade' in doing no damage as Tempest Ele who can't even provide 25 might on their own while having to camp water to maintain a comparative amount of healing? Ele's being so weapon dependant to do certain things only compounds the issue with the Conjure Weapons offering not enough help (you COULD use Scepter/x to provide 25 mights of stacks through blast finishers but then your healing relies on the not-so-reliable ice bow due to lack of ammo/clunky pick up/having to drop it and wasting charges etc).

PvP/WvW roamingwise:Why is it OK for Maurauder Spellbreaker to be an unkillable sustain-god with insane kill potential? Why is it OK for Mesmers and Thieves to be elusive assassins? Yet healing power specced up the kitten Ele who can't even kill that well gets the flak for being annoying?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Manakel Angel.1047 said:

Diamond Skin: Grant resistance for 2 seconds when casting a signet. Signets maintain passive effects while recharging. Signets have a reduced recharge.

I agree with most of your suggestion except this one. Why signet should be exclusive to earth ? It means you can't play with good signets if you specialize in Fire or Air, yet there are signet of fire and signet of air. Distributing signet bonus in the other specialization seems much more interesting to me. Note that I think the same for conjure weapons or glyphs.Why would you have a problem with that change? That's how it is now. I'm not sure if @Poelala.2830 meant move signets from Written In Stone to Diamond Skin but hey. Interesting? Perhaps. Redundant? Definitely imo. If you're going to split all of the utility skill types into their respective elemental traitlines, you're taking up trait slots that could otherwise be filled by better, more meaningful traits for the sake of thematic fidelity or flavour. Like you, I thought most of the suggestions were workable and believe that's the route we should really be going down. We have some decent traits that need updating, not an overhaul.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Coyote.8391 said:

@alez.2137 said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

I never played weaver, so I cannot do what this guys does. But, unless he is using cheats (he isnt) you all experiences Eles can play like him. I dont want to talk about other classes that really need improvements because this will distort what Im saying, but Imho, you Eles atm have a very strong PVE dps (top 3 class), and a very strong WvW roamer, and ofc very strong sPvP duelist.

Translation: I don't play it, never have, and have no clue what I'm talking about, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Lol. Moving on...

Can someone elaborate why Cellofrag, and other high tier eles, shouldnt be taken into account in the balance equation. I mean, if you buff cello character, instead of being superb he is gona be godmode.

Does this guy have 10 fingers in each hand? Has he super-human reaction times? Its an AI? Does he plays with different skills or lower cooldowns than you?

You asking me to do 5% of what he does. Probably if you just play as good as half of that he does, u wont even be asking for ele buffs. Of course, the day I hear Cello, or another top tier, saying his class need a buff (like I've been hearing from other classes top players in the last months), I'll just fold and not gonna discuss if you need a buff or not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@alez.2137 said:

@alez.2137 said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

I never played weaver, so I cannot do what this guys does. But, unless he is using cheats (he isnt) you all experiences Eles can play like him. I dont want to talk about other classes that really need improvements because this will distort what Im saying, but Imho, you Eles atm have a very strong PVE dps (top 3 class), and a very strong WvW roamer, and ofc very strong sPvP duelist.

Translation: I don't play it, never have, and have no clue what I'm talking about, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Lol. Moving on...

Can someone elaborate why Cellofrag, and other high tier eles, shouldnt be taken into account in the balance equation. I mean, if you buff cello character, instead of being superb he is gona be godmode.

Does this guy have 10 fingers in each hand? Has he super-human reaction times? Its an AI? Does he plays with different skills or lower cooldowns than you?

You asking me to do 5% of what he does. Probably if you just play as good as half of that he does, u wont even be asking for ele buffs. Of course, the day I hear Cello, or another top tier, saying his class need a buff (like I've been hearing from other classes top players in the last months), I'll just fold and not gonna discuss if you need a buff or not.

WvW roaming is 99% noob bashing and profiting from builds. It does not say a word about PVP (or relevant WvW zerg balance) at all.

This is ridiculous. We were asked, we gave a lot of suggestions, we were ignored. I am out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@alez.2137 said:I cant believe what Im reading in this post regarding PvP/WvW. Ppl please see this video (published the past week so skills are up-to-date) and reconsider asking for pvp buffs in heal, more health and defenses:

Ele is super op on the right hands. Notice he doesnt even need to use the normal healing skill and he can easily deal 1v2 with one of the class you are mention as op here, ranger sb.

That is Cello. I would love to see a vid from you, alez.2137, playing as an Ele in WvW or PvP and able to do only 5% of Celle did. In PvE, I would love to see a vid from you doing Raids, Fractals with the dps meter on.

Please amaze me and many others. After seeing your vid. I will never say a word about Ele again. its a promise.

Ps: Vid should be in this current patch, not in the future patches where Ele got balanced.

I never played weaver, so I cannot do what this guys does. But, unless he is using cheats (he isnt) you all experiences Eles can play like him. I dont want to talk about other classes that really need improvements because this will distort what Im saying, but Imho, you Eles atm have a very strong PVE dps (top 3 class), and a very strong WvW roamer, and ofc very strong sPvP duelist.

Translation: I don't play it, never have, and have no clue what I'm talking about, but the grass is always greener on the other side. Lol. Moving on...

Can someone elaborate why Cellofrag, and other high tier eles, shouldnt be taken into account in the balance equation. I mean, if you buff cello character, instead of being superb he is gona be godmode.

Does this guy have 10 fingers in each hand? Has he super-human reaction times? Its an AI? Does he plays with different skills or lower cooldowns than you?

You asking me to do 5% of what he does. Probably if you just play as good as half of that he does, u wont even be asking for ele buffs. Of course, the day I hear Cello, or another top tier, saying his class need a buff (like I've been hearing from other classes top players in the last months), I'll just fold and not gonna discuss if you need a buff or not.

WvW roaming is 99% noob bashing and profiting from builds. It does not say a word about PVP (or relevant WvW zerg balance) at all.

This is ridiculous. We were asked, we gave a lot of suggestions, we were ignored. I am out.

Seems like..none of what got put here really got looked into with this patch, i wonder if they took it into account ;-; Outside of weaver and tempest changes, core ele didnt get many changes and the class is now basically a melee class, which..is just..what..

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Manakel Angel.1047 said:

Diamond Skin: Grant resistance for 2 seconds when casting a signet. Signets maintain passive effects while recharging. Signets have a reduced recharge.

I agree with most of your suggestion except this one. Why signet should be exclusive to earth ? It means you can't play with good signets if you specialize in Fire or Air, yet there are signet of fire and signet of air. Distributing signet bonus in the other specialization seems much more interesting to me. Note that I think the same for conjure weapons or glyphs.

Written in Stone is already in Earth. This would just be a buff.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Adjust soothing mist to 10 players instead of just 5 (at least in PvE/traited)

Rethink the descision that many traits don't get you benefits on dual attuning: Dual attuning is already not that useful (beside one trait) and a quite fiddly mechanic. Would it really be op to change these traits to also work on dual attuning? It would open up a descision: Do I wan't to dual attune into a suboptimal dualattunment but get another much needed buff or do I attune into another element and get a different buff?

rethink the duration of some auras: would it be op to increase their duration? It would make the new aura detonation more usable. Maybe increase the duration on the ele through a trait

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...