why do people relegate a weapon to "utility" as an excuse for it being bad

[bara yaoi.3824]

every class has 2-3 largely ignored, unpolished and bad weapons that are relegated to "utility" weapons as an excuse for them not recieving any reworks ever

there shouldn't be a distinction between utility weapons and weapons that do damage

there should be weapons that do good damage, and weapons that do slightly less damage but with some utility, not completely horrible damage with useless utility

players should be able to use the weapon they want on able class and be able to do damage

"utility" is not an excuse for a weapon being in a bad state

[Lexi.1398]

there are quite a few great utility weapons but you wont ever find them on snowcrows or what have you because it's not optimal dps...engi sheild, ele focus, mesmer focus are the first that come to mind and on the higher end of the useful utility.

warhorn needs a little more love across the board, i'd also take a plunge and say that for necro focus and warhorn both need improvements.

personally though idc that some of those weapons do little to no damage...engi shield with sword is a popular alternative meta due to missing only a couple k dps for so much more cc. i think the bigger problem is utility is undervalued in PvE because it doesnt do much dps, and not everything needs damage to be useful. (granted, some weapons are much worse than others as dps is nearly the only important thing in PvE, most utility weapons see a lot more use in competitive game modes but a few still need help...xD)

[zealex.9410]

Any examples?

[Obtena.7952]

They don't regulate 'bad' weapons as utility. There are bad DPS weapons too. What gives you this impression? The distinction is just player made; you won't find Anet referring to a weapon as 'the utility' weapon.

Players CAN use the weapon they want on the class they want and do DPS, just don't expect it to be the best DPS you can get. Many of the statements you are making are just false.

[Sigmoid.7082]

This feels super subjective. You could easily say dps weapons are bad / unpolished/largely ignored because they do not provided enough utility.

Besides every weapon, trait line, utility skill etc all have niches be it damage, support or utility. Makes then feel unique instead of all the same just different colours of the same thinf. The game isn't solely focused around damage. These are things you need to accept.

[Gehenna.3625]

I think it's fair to say that utility is underappreciated and that the game encourages this. DPS numbers are what matters most. It's what happens when you don't have roles in a game and so it's not really going to change. It's not just the weapons but also the statistics. Statistic values like health and toughness are severely less valuable than those that push DPS. This is also linked to the extreme value of dodging which mocks most any form of utility in the game by its sheer effectiveness and necessity and ubiquitous availability amongst all classes. Add to that the easy of resurrecting players or respawning at the nearest waypoint to come back to the fight and you have a set up that makes a complete mockery out of utility.

Now I'm not saying that in harder content like raids there isn't a need for more utility like healing and some form of tanking, but for most of the game, utility means less DPS and therefore is less effective or desirable because glass cannons can dodge damage and have a heal like everybody else and can respawn relatively quickly. It takes the need for a lot of utility or support functionality out of the game.

In short, why worry about survivability and utility, if you can kill things fast without them getting a chance to hit you much. And if it goes wrong, well, you're up again fast enough just the same. Even the downed state contributes to this.

It's a shame perhaps but that's the trade off I guess for not having roles and a combat system that relies heavily on dodging and quick resurrecting. And well, that's kind of what this game is set up on. For utility to have a better place, there would have to be a bigger need for it and currently that need is not that great.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Some people like to do things other than DPS. Its a game, not a job.

[Rhyse.8179]

If it's a "utility" weapon, then it's not bad, just bad if your only goal is DPS.

There are, occasionally (rarely), other things to do in the game.

[Draco.9480]

the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

[Edelweiss.4261]

There are definitely some weapons that are clearly subpar. I don't see any harm in buffing them slightly or, if Anet is feeling adventurous, even reworking them. that said, I'm not the type to be concerned over "power creep", so your mileage may vary.

[Tongku.5326]

@"bara yaoi.3824" said:every class has 2-3 largely ignored, unpolished and bad weapons that are relegated to "utility" weapons as an excuse for them not recieving any reworks ever

there shouldn't be a distinction between utility weapons and weapons that do damage

there should be weapons that do good damage, and weapons that do slightly less damage but with some utility, not completely horrible damage with useless utility

players should be able to use the weapon they want on able class and be able to do damage

"utility" is not an excuse for a weapon being in a bad state

There are various reasons for this, it isn't a single thing. Some of them used to indeed posses very powerful utilities, especially in form of buffing party DPS or avoiding damage which was necessary to complete certain encounters.

Others have always meant to be defensive in nature for both player wielding them and party.

Also because of the horizontal progression and more classes getting abilities, the classes / specs / traits / utility skills, got better and have replaced the wider use of what used to be those niche roles. But the weapons stayed as they were.

Unfortunately, over time as the game has progressed, a lot of them simply have not been buffed to where they should be now and their viability has fallen. A-net tried to "fix" some of it, but they royally screwed up, for example the guardian and mesmer staff.

IMHO a weapon does not need to do good DPS to be good. It can be a defensive weapon, or utility, or healing buffing of some sort, condi cleanse, cc break, many things can be done. But the utility parts of the weapon have to be at minimum equal to, what other player classes provide, surpass it if it is to be wanted in a group setting and they do not.

Last but not least, as stated above, in PvE DPS is king, you will see various utility used in WVW and PvP though and with some good effect.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Yeah, I think mesmer focus is a great example of that. I mean, even just looking at wvw, the people that blob will have a focus, the people that roam or just defend likely won't even carry one. It has utility for the blob to pull people off of walls or runspeed, but is completely useless for literally the rest of the game. A lot of weapons need a pass over by Anet to make them worthwhile.

[derd.6413]

Can we stop using "he's an elctrician" as an excuse for repairmen being bad at fixing my toilet.

[Tails.9372]

@zealex.9410 said:Any examples?thief shortbow

[steki.1478]

Mesmer's focus and staff, ranger's warhorn, ele's focus, thief's sb etc. are all considered utility weapons and they all have good uses across all game modes. Some of them appear in lots of meta builds as well.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ubi.4136 said:Yeah, I think mesmer focus is a great example of that. I mean, even just looking at wvw, the people that blob will have a focus, the people that roam or just defend likely won't even carry one. It has utility for the blob to pull people off of walls or runspeed, but is completely useless for literally the rest of the game.

Used in raids on some bosses for trash pulling as well. Can be really useful for those cases.

Now, if we're talking about necro main hand dagger (which was once the power dps weapon for the class), for example...

[zealex.9410]

@Ubi.4136 said:Yeah, I think mesmer focus is a great example of that. I mean, even just looking at wvw, the people that blob will have a focus, the people that roam or just defend likely won't even carry one. It has utility for the blob to pull people off of walls or runspeed, but is completely useless for literally the rest of the game. A lot of weapons need a pass over by Anet to make them worthwhile.

Mesmer focus is a god weapon in pve.

[yann.1946]

@Ubi.4136 said:Yeah, I think mesmer focus is a great example of that. I mean, even just looking at wvw, the people that blob will have a focus, the people that roam or just defend likely won't even carry one. It has utility for the blob to pull people off of walls or runspeed, but is completely useless for literally the rest of the game. A lot of weapons need a pass over by Anet to make them worthwhile.

Focus gets used a lot in raids to pull adds. I presume in fractals to but I don't play those ad a high enough level.

[Hesacon.8735]

@Tails.9372 said:

@zealex.9410 said:Any examples?thief shortbow

If you've spent any time in spvp or wvw, you'd know every single thief carries this weapon for movement. If anything it's the most important weapon in a thief's arsenal. Nobody is using it for damage.

Even in pve, it's useful to blast smoke fields to skip trash mobs. Admittedly this is most useful in dungeons, which haven't seen any love in recent memory.

[Gregious.8903]

Warrior mace is another example of a low dps weapon that has great utility and is in many PvP and pve meta builds. You won't see it as often in wvw because hammer is better there, yet another utility weapon. A reason those weapons don't have high dps is because of PvP and wvw. You don't want someone using a mobility weapon and then swapping to a cc weapon that has 3 sec stun spam and 70% of a high dps weapons dps. If you want to see how op a mediocre dps utility build is in pve look no further than the support chrono.

[Tails.9372]

@Hesacon.8735 said:If you've spent any time in spvp or wvw, you'd know every single thief carries this weapon for movement. If anything it's the most important weapon in a thief's arsenal.So what? The topic of this thread is that a weapon being used as a tool isn't an excuse for it being a bad weapon e.g. infiltrator's arrow being used for utility isn't an excuse for cluster bomb failing on the most basic level.

@Hesacon.8735 said:Nobody is using it for damage.Exactly, that's why it fits as an example for the premise of this thread.

[Zushada.6108]

You are all forgetting Mesmer Scepter. It is one of my favorite weapons for the profession but it doesn't put out enough DPS in any game mode (except levelling PVE) to be usable. Really unfortunate because it has potential.

[Cyninja.2954]

@bara yaoi.3824 said:every class has 2-3 largely ignored, unpolished and bad weapons that are relegated to "utility" weapons as an excuse for them not recieving any reworks ever

there shouldn't be a distinction between utility weapons and weapons that do damage

Of course there should be, if the only metric of a weapon was how much damage it did without any type of utility skills the entire weapon system would become very bland. At the same time providing utility to some weapon while giving them equal damage to others would make any non utility weapon obsolete.

At the same time, just because a weapon does less damage does not mean it's unbalanced. That is very limited thinking.

@bara yaoi.3824 said:

there should be weapons that do good damage, and weapons that do slightly less damage but with some utility, not completely horrible damage with useless utility

That depends entirely on how much utility you give up for damage.

@bara yaoi.3824 said:

players should be able to use the weapon they want on able class and be able to do damage

"utility" is not an excuse for a weapon being in a bad state

No it's not, neither is wanting overpowered utility and damage weapons. The only class even remotely running into issues of this scale is warrior due to the pure amount of available weapons. Most classes have 1-2 weapons per damage type which already dictates what they use (power or condi) and maybe 1-2 utility weapons which are situational or build dependent.

[Carighan.6758]

@"bara yaoi.3824" said:"utility" is not an excuse for a weapon being in a bad state

Fully agreed.

But, consider the sheer breadth of GW2 by now, especially in regards to the millions of possible character setups. Stats, weapons, skills, traitlines, selected traits, sigils, runes. All the combinations. A single class can approach you as anything from a power DPS over a healer or a slightly defensive condi spreader to a full cornerstone meant to conduct a WvW zerg while staying alive. The very same class.

In that context, expecting even two weapons to be balanced for a given class is... let's say a tall order. Nevermind all weapons. I wouldn't even call them utility, yeah they're bad but that is fully expected, I'm surprised so few weapons are utterly useless actually.

[Airdive.2613]

@Draco.9480 said:the worst is staff for necros. weak and slow aa that regens life force by little, 2 condi marks, 1 utility mark to redirect condis and 1 more mark for small cc (fear). this is so bad. it's for healers, power type damage dealer nor damage over time type dealers. what kind of bad joke is that?

Actually, the staff brings a decent AoE burst/cover and a form of condition transfer. It isn't bad in PvP.The key is to use your primary weapon first, then swap for the staff, use what skills you need, then enter the shroud and keep fighting. After you leave the shroud, use more staff skills you need and swap for your primary weapon again. You don't use the staff for its autoattack, yet that doesn't make it a joke weapon.