Elite spec nerf

[Lucius.2140]

Hi all, i used to play this game actively and for me and a group of friends the way the pvp has gone its awfull.

Theres more spam, less strategy and generally not only less skill its required but it have way more balance issues that most of pvp situations (meta or not) before HoT.I will like to read your opinion about getting back to a state similar to vainilla, just pre Hot, either before or after the spec changes for the expansion.Also if you want to list the ways it could be achieved.

Pd: English isnt my main language.

[Math.5123]

If they remove elite specs now, all you'd see are guardians, thieves and warriors.

[Lucius.2140]

Well, the idea will be to get it to the balance and type of meta of before, not removing the new specs.

[jihm.2315]

HoT was the worst pvp expansion now days its better but still long way to go in terms of balance

[Bazsi.2734]

Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!

[Deimos.4263]

Honestly it's worth a shot going back to "vanilla". It won't be worse than what we have now.

[Abelisk.4527]

Honestly core ain't that bad. Core power necro is pretty good, core Ranger is excellent, core FA ele is neat, core Rev is... core engi is good, and finally core Mesmer isn't bad either. Yes S/D Thief may need a slight shave, core Warr may need a few trims, and core Guard needs damage shaves. Otherwise it looks pretty optimistic.

[Lucius.2140]

@Bazsi.2734 said:Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!

Spammy and less minded intense, in vainilla you needed a better use of both defensive and attack/burst skills, specially in group fights. It had more room to see the skills of players. The second point its that more builts were near the meta for most classes.

Im not sure how much the population has changed but most people that quit pvp around Hot leave because the balance, gameplay, no MMR leagues and less spot for teams combination, so i think theres way less people that think like me this days that could have back in that time.For the other part, they can either go to the segment they have now or try to make it better to get a bigger audience.

Vainilla could have long matches if the level of skills were similar, but really fast if not, the more intense experience in my opinion its a worthy opponenet /group, it makes you to focus more, specially if you cant spare skills, if the match is on the other side longer because you can spare them or have huge levels of survivility without much cost (example: Hot metas) then of course its terrible.

That been said an example of nerfing for chronomancer:

Reduce the effect of alacrity to 66%, it will make a lot of changes in its rythme of playing. It will still be stronger because superior burst with f5, more survivility and group support, but it will without doubt be a great start.Group could be fixed if you change some blessings and healing done by the wells to allies to be more dependants of associated stats or a trait exchange for it.The burst/survivility point its a little more difficult. I need more experience with today settings to think a change that in my opinion would be good.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Bazsi.2734 said:Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!

Most PvP and WvW players have already quit, for many a big contribution to that was how combat in this game with elite specs has powercreeped through the roof and generally been dumbed down so trash players can think they are good (go see the faceroll that is holosmith in comparison to pre-HoT engy, or daredevil compared to pre-HoT thief for fine examples of that), the combat from a WvW/PvP perspective has been ruined already.

[Hesacon.8735]

The vocal minority are a vocal minority.

[Chaith.8256]

@Abelisk.4527 said:Honestly core ain't that bad. Core power necro is pretty good, core Ranger is excellent, core FA ele is neat, core Rev is... core engi is good, and finally core Mesmer isn't bad either. Yes S/D Thief may need a slight shave, core Warr may need a few trims, and core Guard needs damage shaves. Otherwise it looks pretty optimistic.

Hmm, not really.

• Core Thief, Guard, Ranger, Warrior, these are on roughly on par with second tier elite specs, like Soulbeast/Reaper/Weaver/Scrapper/Deadeye/Daredevil/Chrono/Herald.
  • These core specs I mentioned are actually at LEAST a little BETTER than elite specs like Berserker, Renegade, Tempest, Druid, Dragonhunter.
• Core Engi, Core Ele, these are very sub-par but super strong Engi/Ele mains could still function with the handicap..
• Core Mesmer, Necro, Rev, these are un-playable in PvP, in my opinion

It's pretty far from balanced, you have core specs that are unplayable ranging to seeing Monthly AT use

[Abelisk.4527]

I don't know what build he used, but Nuntius Tenebrius (?) has a strong, tanky core power Necro build.

And core Mantra shatter Mesmer is not weak at all. Without elite specs this Mes build will be very deadly in my opinion.

[Abelisk.4527]

I don't know what build he used, but Nuntius Tenebrius (?) has a strong, tanky core power Necro build.

And core Mantra shatter Mesmer is not weak at all. Without elite specs this Mes build will be very deadly in my opinion.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!

Im not sure how much the population has changed but most people that quit pvp around Hot leave because the balance, gameplay, no MMR leagues and less spot for teams combination, so i think theres way less people that think like me this days that could have back in that time.For the other part, they can either go to the segment they have now or try to make it better to get a bigger audience.

So your point is, that people who liked the older version of the game already quit, so lets bring it back because... what? If the players who'd potentially want this are gone, whats the point? You just gave an extra reason(on top of mine)not to do the "rework".

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:blablabla

Most PvP and WvW players have already quit, for many a big contribution to that was how combat in this game with elite specs has powercreeped through the roof and generally been dumbed down so trash players can think they are good (go see the faceroll that is holosmith in comparison to pre-HoT engy, or daredevil compared to pre-HoT thief for fine examples of that), the combat from a WvW/PvP perspective has been ruined already.

Daredevil is dumbed down thief that helped trash like Sindrener think he's good? Well thats a take. Not only unrelated to what this thread should be about, but also entertaining! Thank you for the reply!

[Lucius.2140]

@"Bazsi.2734" said:So your point is, that people who liked the older version of the game already quit, so lets bring it back because... what? If the players who'd potentially want this are gone, whats the point? You just gave an extra reason(on top of mine)not to do the "rework".

About my point: It wasnt my intention to counter argue your argument with that part, that would be dumb, however, if theres a posibility that your argument about the playerbase its right and im been a vocal minority i will take it in account (thats why i wrote it), since a discussion have no point if truth, solution or a better state its not gained.

As for your interpretation of what i put: "Im not sure how much the population has changed but most people that quit pvp around Hot leave because the balance, gameplay, no MMR leagues and less spot for teams combination, so i think theres way less people that think like me this days that could have back in that time."Must leave =/= not all, been less people =/= minority, im not sure if im a minority.

However, what i put about that posibility:"For the other part, they can either go to the segment they have now or try to make it better to get a bigger audience."(The segment been a combination of lovers, neutrals and "it was better but i still like it"/confort zone/ nostalgia guys)

If some changes half your population (for what i have read its the estimation), you can try to change it back or make it generally better to get more people or stay very niche.Personally, i like the idea of fixing things and if you overly screwed half of your customers, the norm its doing it also. Also from my point of view, GW2 has always been a great MMO and i dont like the idea of it going for niche when it could be bigger.

Pd: not my main language.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Sylosi.6503" said:Most PvP and WvW players have already quit, for many a big contribution to that was how combat in this game with elite specs has powercreeped through the roof and generally been dumbed down so trash players can think they are good (go see the faceroll that is holosmith in comparison to pre-HoT engy, or daredevil compared to pre-HoT thief for fine examples of that), the combat from a WvW/PvP perspective has been ruined already.

Daredevil is dumbed down thief that helped trash like Sindrener think he's good? Well thats a take.

If that is your "take" then that says more about you than anything else.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:Most PvP and WvW players have already quit, for many a big contribution to that was how combat in this game with elite specs has powercreeped through the roof and generally been dumbed down so trash players can think they are good (go see the faceroll that is holosmith in comparison to pre-HoT engy, or daredevil compared to pre-HoT thief for fine examples of that), the combat from a WvW/PvP perspective has been ruined already.

Daredevil is dumbed down thief that helped trash like Sindrener think he's good? Well thats a take.

If that is your "take" then that says more about you than anything else.

Nope, thats your take. It's basicly your statements combined with a name. If it sounds wrong, maybe something is wrong with your original statements, because all I did was build on them by adding an objective truth. LoL

[zinkz.7045]

..........

[Exedore.6320]

@Bazsi.2734 said:Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!It would be a more interesting game because decisions of when and whether to use skills would actually matter. Spamming would actually be bad.

And it can be accomplished without ruining the game. It's just that ANet would need to do some serious thinking about elite specs - particularly how many are additions to the base profession rather than a give-and-take. For example, you could take away weapon swap from Firebrand, but give its tomes a little more versatility. You could lower the illusion cap or remove one of the F1-F4 abilities for chronomancer and mirage. Another possibility is to make one of the core trait lines into an elite trait line - usually the one dealing with the profession's unique abilities - which would provide some needed mutual exclusion with elite specs. Having that trade-off and distinction allows more freedom to have interesting mechanics which aren't overly powerful.

[Sylosi.6503]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Sylosi.6503 said:Most PvP and WvW players have already quit, for many a big contribution to that was how combat in this game with elite specs has powercreeped through the roof and generally been dumbed down so trash players can think they are good (go see the faceroll that is holosmith in comparison to pre-HoT engy, or daredevil compared to pre-HoT thief for fine examples of that), the combat from a WvW/PvP perspective has been ruined already.

Daredevil is dumbed down thief that helped trash like Sindrener think he's good? Well thats a take.

If that is your "take" then that says more about you than anything else.

Nope, thats your take. It's basicly your statements combined with a name. If it sounds wrong, maybe something is wrong with your original statements, because all I did was build on them by adding an objective truth. LoL

No, that is not my take, it is your bizzare interpretation that follows no logical basis given what I actually wrote.

Thieves who were good pre-HoT were still good after HoT, nothing I wrote contradicts that, so quite why you think you need to name good players is a mystery. It is pretty simple, Daredevil was more forgiving to play than pre-Hot core thief so made it easier for less able players to be "competent" on thief.

[bq pd.2148]

@Lucius.2140 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:Everything is way more faster, stronger, more intense then it was pre-HoT. If you wan't that meta back(which you can't unless you straight up DELETE the elite specs), you need to tone down everything drastically. And it would result in a boring, slow, dull meta that would make most players quit.You're asking A-net to ruin their own game, which won't happen. This is a pointless thread. Ask for reworks or nerfs/buffs that have a chance of happening instead!

Spammy and less minded intense, in vainilla you needed a better use of both defensive and attack/burst skills, specially in group fights. It had more room to see the skills of players. The second point its that more builts were near the meta for most classes.

Vainilla could have long matches if the level of skills were similar, but really fast if not, the more intense experience in my opinion its a worthy opponenet /group, it makes you to focus more, specially if you cant spare skills, if the match is on the other side longer because you can spare them or have huge levels of survivility without much cost (example: Hot metas) then of course its terrible.people playing this game over years , over thousands of hours will get better. i think it is nearly impossible to remain as noobish over years and playing alot ( the relative skill to people who improve faster will drop, but absolute it will improve allways). with every year you will need more attempts to CC/burst/whatever an opponent to death, because they just get better and you aswell, you both can better avoid or sustain through each others offense in making better use of the defense. if the game doesnt speed up, the fights will become longer and longer.faster fights tho make any type of advantage you have lead faster to an end, be it 'skill' or envoiremental advantages (wich also includes build advantages as they depend mostly on envoirement). but both of such advantages would also in a slower fight lead to a win, maybe slower.sure we have more offensive options and defensive options now, but that only changed the speed of interaction, slowing it down only makes many fights into who gets bored first and makes a mistake falling asleep,

[Lucius.2140]

@MUDse.7623 said:people playing this game over years , over thousands of hours will get better. i think it is nearly impossible to remain as noobish over years and playing alot ( the relative skill to people who improve faster will drop, but absolute it will improve allways). with every year you will need more attempts to CC/burst/whatever an opponent to death, because they just get better and you aswell, you both can better avoid or sustain through each others offense in making better use of the defense. if the game doesnt speed up, the fights will become longer and longer.faster fights tho make any type of advantage you have lead faster to an end, be it 'skill' or envoiremental advantages (wich also includes build advantages as they depend mostly on envoirement). but both of such advantages would also in a slower fight lead to a win, maybe slower.sure we have more offensive options and defensive options now, but that only changed the speed of interaction, slowing it down only makes many fights into who gets bored first and makes a mistake falling asleep,

Actually you also get better in cc, burst, etc. doing it at the right moment, in less time, after luring the enemy and using feints. Faster with more options just downgrade the game to spammy and promoves lazzy gameplay.Also gw2 has always different levels of players, what you describe never happened with sane and balanced (as far as we got in that at that time) metas in the higher levels. What i describe did happen, no super long fights in general, no need to more options because the other learned how to do it well, so you have more chances for him to make a mistake; you get better in general, not only at one thing.Going to the extreme you put, you dont get bored when you need to intensly concentrate at playing pvp, if you do you arent really in pvp and probably are more in zerging -.-

[bq pd.2148]

@Lucius.2140 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:people playing this game over years , over thousands of hours will get better. i think it is nearly impossible to remain as noobish over years and playing alot ( the relative skill to people who improve faster will drop, but absolute it will improve allways). with every year you will need more attempts to CC/burst/whatever an opponent to death, because they just get better and you aswell, you both can better avoid or sustain through each others offense in making better use of the defense. if the game doesnt speed up, the fights will become longer and longer.faster fights tho make any type of advantage you have lead faster to an end, be it 'skill' or envoiremental advantages (wich also includes build advantages as they depend mostly on envoirement). but both of such advantages would also in a slower fight lead to a win, maybe slower.sure we have more offensive options and defensive options now, but that only changed the speed of interaction, slowing it down only makes many fights into who gets bored first and makes a mistake falling asleep,

Actually you also get better in cc, burst, etc. doing it at the right moment, in less time, after luring the enemy and using feints. Faster with more options just downgrade the game to spammy and promoves lazzy gameplay.Also gw2 has always different levels of players, what you describe never happened with sane and balanced (as far as we got in that at that time) metas in the higher levels. What i describe did happen, no super long fights in general, no need to more options because the other learned how to do it well, so you have more chances for him to make a mistake; you get better in general, not only at one thing.Going to the extreme you put, you dont get bored when you need to intensly concentrate at playing pvp, if you do you arent really in pvp and probably are more in zerging -.-

you get better with offensive skills doesnt matter if one can react to it. your correct you get better with instant skills or ones without tells from stealth. but rest is completely irrelevant, people will just react to it.if we go back to vanilla i know if i avoided a burst i can go /sit and get a coffee before we continue, i dont see how that needs more concentration.

[Lucius.2140]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Lucius.2140 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:people playing this game over years , over thousands of hours will get better. i think it is nearly impossible to remain as noobish over years and playing alot ( the relative skill to people who improve faster will drop, but absolute it will improve allways). with every year you will need more attempts to CC/burst/whatever an opponent to death, because they just get better and you aswell, you both can better avoid or sustain through each others offense in making better use of the defense. if the game doesnt speed up, the fights will become longer and longer.faster fights tho make any type of advantage you have lead faster to an end, be it 'skill' or envoiremental advantages (wich also includes build advantages as they depend mostly on envoirement). but both of such advantages would also in a slower fight lead to a win, maybe slower.sure we have more offensive options and defensive options now, but that only changed the speed of interaction, slowing it down only makes many fights into who gets bored first and makes a mistake falling asleep,

Actually you also get better in cc, burst, etc. doing it at the right moment, in less time, after luring the enemy and using feints. Faster with more options just downgrade the game to spammy and promoves lazzy gameplay.Also gw2 has always different levels of players, what you describe never happened with sane and balanced (as far as we got in that at that time) metas in the higher levels. What i describe did happen, no super long fights in general, no need to more options because the other learned how to do it well, so you have more chances for him to make a mistake; you get better in general, not only at one thing.Going to the extreme you put, you dont get bored when you need to intensly concentrate at playing pvp, if you do you arent really in pvp and probably are more in zerging -.-

you get better with offensive skills doesnt matter if one can react to it. your correct you get better with instant skills or ones without tells from stealth. but rest is completely irrelevant, people will just react to it.if we go back to vanilla i know if i avoided a burst i can go /sit and get a coffee before we continue, i dont see how that needs more concentration.

Hey you are exagerating:

First: Gw2 bursts generally allowed rotations of less than 20 secs (not the best burst but for alredy on combat thats enough).

Second: you not only die from bursts and healing an defense were less prominent and effective in general.

Third: one of the more important points about vainilla was to been capable to make the enemy dont have dodges, etc. its what make it strategical.

If your opponent wasnt trying to get the flow to obligate you to use defense skills or heal skills before burst moments, wasnt feinting and such, having good reflex was enough, but that wasnt and would never been the start of good gameplay and that goes for nearly every competitive in irl and gaming.

A simple example could be if you try to change the timing of your bursts in stealth, a lot of players will get more hits than in other cases:

• Absolutly new players dont counter react stealth.
• Starting to counter it ones use the invulns etc. at the start of stealth (and starting users of stealth use their skills at that same time lol).
• Experienced users learn to time it really well (its intuition- good intuition its constructed by information: knowledge and experience).

In a 1 min fight you can use a couple of tempos an score hits easier, also for the playing of your enemy you can understand its tempo of defending.Flow game its an art an one of its core traits its limited resources.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Lucius.2140, you keep bringing up the ability to spam like it's a bad thing. But in reality its a suboptimal use of your skills most of the time, so thats just one of the possible mistakes bad players can make. The only build that's somewhat meta and relies on spamming is scourge in a teamfight... and it's a useless spec in the top 100.Good players have valid reasons for every button press, every skill, every combo, every rotation they make. Facing against a spammer ends in a onesided ownage. They are bad players, easy to beat or outrotate.

Spamming is a mistake bad players make, its not something for a balance patch to fix.