Waypoints and Refugees

[Jazz.2643]

So, one thing that's been bugging me lately is the whole Refugee situation we have in Amnoon. Why do all of them try to get passage to Central Tyria by trying to hitch a ride on a Consortium ship, when they have waypoints?

[penelopehannibal.8947]

I'm guessing because the refugees can't afford the waypoints.

[Kalavier.1097]

Waypoints and Asura gates cost money. We've seen people travel across land for caravan purposes, so the prices may be deemed too expensive.

Also the fact I doubt the refugees have much, if any money.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Waypoints in general are a huge iffy zone in the lore of where lore begins and mechanics end. We see a lot of situations were it just would make a lot more sense to use waypoints - Noble's Folly in Verdant Brink being a major one. The best answer there is simply "some waypoints don't exist in lore, and exist in-game for mechanical reasons only; most if not all HoT waypoints are likely of this nature". But then we hit the snag of "which waypoints exist, and which do not?" Beyond those used by or mentioned by NPCs, it's impossible to say.

What lore we do know that could prevent refugees from using them is this:

Firstly, there's cost. We were told in a much-dreaded interview that waypoints do cost money (and part of why said interview is dreaded is because of the explanation of how one pays for waypoints: that it is magically taken out of the wallet by the Arcane Council and put into their vaults...). Refugees would be leaving a lot of valuables behind, and possibly including money. Some may not have the means to use them. (Note: although they do not cost money mechanically, asura gates are said to be very expensive in lore).

Secondly, the means of using waypoints. We see a handful of NPCs using waypoints in the game now - very few in core game (if ever) but a handful were added temporarily during Season 1, more in Season 2 and after. Most notable now is in Lion's Arch. When NPCs use waypoints, they walk directly underneath them. This means refugees would first have to travel to a waypoint - there are only three waypoints in Crystal Oasis, and likely just as few in other maps in the Crystal Desert and northern Elona. So even if refugees could use waypoints, they'd have to travel far to get to one.

But beyond that, there's how they travel to other waypoints. Waypoints seem to be based off of Snaff's personal teleporter device brought up in Edge of Destiny (meaning the entire system is less than ten years old now!). He explained its function much like we see in mechanics: to be able to go to a waypoint, you must first have been there. Lore-wise, waypoints are likely used via interacting a handheld device (likely a ring which Snaff had iirc) with the waypoint system which activates that waypoint for future interaction (thus one reason why asura gates are superior - therefore pricier - than waypoints being that you don't need to have visited the other end, but waypoints have more possibile end locations).

Thirdly, and this ties into the second point: Contact with Elona has been non-existent for the most part. There were Priory explorations, but we don't know how long ago. There are Order of Whispers but they're very secretive. Basically, there's no one to have been around to set up those waypoints until the refugees from Elona begin showing up just before the events of PoF! Prior to now, the last Elonian refugees were 50 years ago, and according to Sparking the Flame instance Elona and the Crystal Desert were closed off since Joko took over in 1175 AE. So no time in the past 10 years until just now for Elonians to install waypoints, and even if they could even fewer chances for Elonians - especially refugees - to get that handheld device to interact with waypoints.

One final point that wouldn't apply to all refugees: Animals. If they are traveling with animals, said animals may not be able to use waypoints (which may be why so many merchants prefer caravans still rather than waypoints, even if cost for individual use weren't an issue).

[Catbuggalicious.2548]

@Kalavier.1097 said:Waypoints and Asura gates cost money. We've seen people travel across land for caravan purposes, so the prices may be deemed too expensive.

Also the fact I doubt the refugees have much, if any money.

Asura gates don't cost money, do they? Because it was mentioned by some NPC in-game that waypoints are the "second most efficient way to travel, next to our gates... for a trivial fee, they can transport you across large distances." This conveys that Asura gates are free of charge, which they also are from a mechanics standpoint.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Before LA was destroyed, there was dialogue about how expensive it was to use an asura gate - it was between a gatekeeper and a charr merchant, who tried to negotiate prices down and the asura's 'deal' was all his wares.

The price is also mentioned in Edge of Destiny (that it's pricey that is), and I want to say in Sea of Sorrows too.

They are only free mechanically, because ArenaNet wanted players to be able to play with each other easily despite race. This was before NPE, though, where you automatically unlock the entry waypoint of all five starter zones and you cannot enter cities until level 10 (for F2P that is, about cities).

[ich.7086]

A similar dialogue in DR :

Citizen: Asura get on my nerves. I'm sick of their condescending nonsense.Citizen (2): We could use more of those asura gates, though. Think of the supplies we could move in here.Citizen: You have any idea how much it costs to ship something by asura gate? Maybe Ebonhawke is willing to pay those prices, but I'm not! All I get from those flop-eared rats is attitude!Citizen (2): Hey, I'm not the one who lost at Polymock. Get over it!

[draxynnic.3719]

I've generally had the idea that part of the reason why it may not cost us a lot of money to use gates, waypoints, etc is because we essentially have a 'sponsor', whether it's our iconic (early in the storyline) and their ties to the government of our race, our order, or the Pact as a whole. Through that sponsor, we get at-cost use of the various asura transportation devices, while for people without a sponsor they're substantially more expensive.

That's just a shot in the dark, however, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Inc.4753]

Another shot in the dark here (just based on the few examples mentioned in this thread): It might just cost money to move goods through the gates. Persons can go through for free with just their carry-on.The same principle could be true for using waypoints: it would cost a lot more if you have goods with you, which is why merchants/refugees won't/can't use them.

[Shanna.4762]

probably money, we're probably supposed to be obscenely rich compared to the average inhabitant of this world lol.

[Rognik.2579]

There is one very obvious answer on why refugees can't just waypoint, even if they have a bunch of gold in their pocket and are travelling with just the clothes on their backs: to be able to go to another waypoint, you first have to have charted that waypoint. Not only has the Elonan sub-continent been cut off, but said refugees haven't yet been to any part of Kryta. Thus, how can they choose a destination they've never visited? Probably a pretty big barrier for escape.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

[skullmount.1758]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

[therapite.3645]

@skullmount.1758 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

You can't embed pictures anymore here, "it's a feature not a bug".

[Danikat.8537]

@Shanna.4762 said:probably money, we're probably supposed to be obscenely rich compared to the average inhabitant of this world lol.

I think this is actually accurate.

Adventuring is often portrayed (in a lot of games) as the ultimate high risk/high reward career choice - if you're good at it you'll make more money that most people would ever see in their lifetime. If you're bad at it you'll quickly die a horrible death...if you're lucky. If you're unlucky you'll slowly die a horrible death, potentially from starvation because you're not making any money or get yourself lost or trapped.

I can't think where I've seen specific examples now but I'm sure when NPCs talk about huge amounts of money they talk about 100g or so. Which is not exactly cheap to most players, but not an impossibly huge amount either. I know in GW1 they'd throw a fit over something costing 1 platinum (1000g) and since 1g was the smallest unit of currency that's about 100g in GW2 money.

But also look at the stuff we buy - normal equipment which most NPCs, even high ranking soldiers and Order officials, use is trivial for us. The stuff we have to save up for is the super rare, legendary (sometimes literally) items most NPCs would likely never even see...unless they meet a player character using it.

So while waypoint costs are trivial to us for most NPCs it might be a serious consideration. Especially if they're merchants or otherwise travelling for business and have to factor that into their calculations - if going by waypoint is going to cost you 1/2 the profit you expect to make is it really worth it?

Or if they're a refugee and have literally nothing but the clothes they were wearing when they escaped.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

@therapite.3645 said:

@skullmount.1758 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

You can't embed pictures anymore here, "it's a feature not a bug".

That is incredibly lame. I know a lot of us are seemingly falling into that "hatred of any change" trope, but frankly I haven't seen any reason to like this forum over the old one except maybe the removal of the forum bug.

Hate Is Fuel.

[therapite.3645]

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@therapite.3645 said:

@skullmount.1758 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

You can't embed pictures anymore here, "it's a feature not a bug".

That is incredibly lame. I know a lot of us are seemingly falling into that "hatred of any change" trope, but frankly I haven't seen any reason to like this forum over the old one except maybe the removal of the forum bug.

Hate Is Fuel.

You can have real polls now. And we can have icons that most people seem to either not like or not care about. And unlock features. And um. Badgers.

No wait. Badges. There's a difference, Thera. Sorry.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Eh, can't say I care much about polls myself, so from my pov my comment still stands, but I'll concede that not everyone feels the same.

.

---

Hate Is Fuel

---

[skullmount.1758]

@therapite.3645 said:

@skullmount.1758 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

You can't embed pictures anymore here, "it's a feature not a bug".Can't embed/attach pictures, but you can embed youtube videos (saw it in other threads).

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@therapite.3645 said:

@skullmount.1758 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/872/113/a45.png

dang it, I give up. Can't seem to attach a picture or get it to embed with this new forum.

You can't embed pictures anymore here, "it's a feature not a bug".

That is incredibly lame. I know a lot of us are seemingly falling into that "hatred of any change" trope, but frankly I haven't seen any reason to like this forum over the old one except maybe the removal of the forum bug.

Hate Is Fuel.

[skeeman.3140]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Same reason Eir didn't just WP during the HoT story.

To be fair, a vine wrapped around her leg a few seconds before she got shanked, so she couldn't have waypointed because she was in combat.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Already has many in LA due to the update that left LA as a ready-to-expansion map. All that remains is to wait for the expansion to explain how they got there. I have not yet tested whether there is a dialogue with these refugees npcs. Ogden is also in L.A.

[Fenom.9457]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Waypoints in general are a huge iffy zone in the lore of where lore begins and mechanics end. We see a lot of situations were it just would make a lot more sense to use waypoints - Noble's Folly in Verdant Brink being a major one. The best answer there is simply "some waypoints don't exist in lore, and exist in-game for mechanical reasons only; most if not all HoT waypoints are likely of this nature". But then we hit the snag of "which waypoints exist, and which do not?" Beyond those used by or mentioned by NPCs, it's impossible to say.

What lore we do know that could prevent refugees from using them is this:

Firstly, there's cost. We were told in a much-dreaded interview that waypoints do cost money (and part of why said interview is dreaded is because of the explanation of how one pays for waypoints: that it is magically taken out of the wallet by the Arcane Council and put into their vaults...). Refugees would be leaving a lot of valuables behind, and possibly including money. Some may not have the means to use them. (Note: although they do not cost money mechanically, asura gates are said to be very expensive in lore).

Secondly, the means of using waypoints. We see a handful of NPCs using waypoints in the game now - very few in core game (if ever) but a handful were added temporarily during Season 1, more in Season 2 and after. Most notable now is in Lion's Arch. When NPCs use waypoints, they walk directly underneath them. This means refugees would first have to travel to a waypoint - there are only three waypoints in Crystal Oasis, and likely just as few in other maps in the Crystal Desert and northern Elona. So even if refugees could use waypoints, they'd have to travel far to get to one.

But beyond that, there's how they travel to other waypoints. Waypoints seem to be based off of Snaff's personal teleporter device brought up in Edge of Destiny (meaning the entire system is less than ten years old now!). He explained its function much like we see in mechanics: to be able to go to a waypoint, you must first have been there. Lore-wise, waypoints are likely used via interacting a handheld device (likely a ring which Snaff had iirc) with the waypoint system which activates that waypoint for future interaction (thus one reason why asura gates are superior - therefore pricier - than waypoints being that you don't need to have visited the other end, but waypoints have more possibile end locations).

Thirdly, and this ties into the second point: Contact with Elona has been non-existent for the most part. There were Priory explorations, but we don't know how long ago. There are Order of Whispers but they're very secretive. Basically, there's no one to have been around to set up those waypoints until the refugees from Elona begin showing up just before the events of PoF! Prior to now, the last Elonian refugees were 50 years ago, and according to Sparking the Flame instance Elona and the Crystal Desert were closed off since Joko took over in 1175 AE. So no time in the past 10 years until just now for Elonians to install waypoints, and even if they could even fewer chances for Elonians - especially refugees - to get that handheld device to interact with waypoints.

One final point that wouldn't apply to all refugees: Animals. If they are traveling with animals, said animals may not be able to use waypoints (which may be why so many merchants prefer caravans still rather than waypoints, even if cost for individual use weren't an issue).

You have some really good points worth investigating but really it's just that mechanically waypoints are everywhere but in lore they're only in big cities and maybe medium towns in the main continent in which they were invented (central tyria)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fenom.9457 said:You have some really good points worth investigating but really it's just that mechanically waypoints are everywhere but in lore they're only in big cities and maybe medium towns in the main continent in which they were invented (central tyria)

Definitely untrue. Besides the fact that in Season 2, we have vines over certain waypoints and dialogue talking about those vines, in Season 1 during Origins of Madness, Rytlock and a small squad of charr were seen moving from waypoint to waypoint in Bloodtide Coast.

While there's one can argue there are fewer waypoints in lore than in-game because of the lore added to them post-release, we certainly know the number of waypoints expands well beyond "in big cities and maybe medium towns".

[Rognik.2579]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Already has many in LA due to the update that left LA as a ready-to-expansion map. All that remains is to wait for the expansion to explain how they got there. I have not yet tested whether there is a dialogue with these refugees npcs. Ogden is also in L.A.

The refugees are as mute as all the other nameless NPCs. Not even an "Ahai!" from any of them. I tested it when they first started appearing in Lion's Arch.

I still say that most of them just haven't unlocked the waypoint, and that's why they can't use them. Plus, the cost of waypoints increases the farther away they are and how high your level is. I doubt any of the refugees are that high level, but the distance may be prohibative.

[eduardo.1436]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Already has many in LA due to the update that left LA as a ready-to-expansion map. All that remains is to wait for the expansion to explain how they got there. I have not yet tested whether there is a dialogue with these refugees npcs. Ogden is also in L.A.

Speaking of Ogden and new refugees......shouldn't Hero-Tron be helping them find jobs? he describes himself as giving pamphlets to refugees, instead he is chilling with Ogden XD