Ls4 into Ls5

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Season 3 had a "change of focus" really halfway through,Not really. Season 3, from the get-go, was, ultimately, Baltha-Lazarus's story, since it was him who caused the explosion at Bloodstone Fen in episode 1.

He was the primary villain the whole season, form start to finish, and basically everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly. That doesn't mean we didn't do other things, and deal with other things, since stories are never so singularly focused, but the focus of the season was always that story, from beginning to end.

[perilisk.1874]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Season 3 had a "change of focus" really halfway through,Not really. Season 3, from the get-go, was, ultimately, Baltha-Lazarus's story, since it was him who caused the explosion at Bloodstone Fen in episode 1.

He was the primary villain the whole season, form start to finish, and basically everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly. That doesn't mean we didn't do other things, and deal with other things, since stories are never so singularly focused, but the focus of the season was always that story, from beginning to end.

He didn't really have any responsibility for the two dragons becoming active or our activities in that regard, aside from being involved in the resolution of that subplot. But, technically, that was more of a main plot than PoF, if the main story of GW2 is about the Elder Dragons. The conflict between the White Mantle factions (and Mursaat, a bit) and the Shining Blade was much of a main plot as Balthazar.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@perilisk.1874 said:He didn't really have any responsibility for the two dragons becoming active or our activities in that regard, aside from being involved in the resolution of that subplot. But, technically, that was more of a main plot than PoF, if the main story of GW2 is about the Elder Dragons. The conflict between the White Mantle factions (and Mursaat, a bit) and the Shining Blade was much of a main plot as Balthazar.No, but the two dragons becoming active weren't the main story of the seasons, they were secondary plot devices later used as mcguffins to further the Baltha-Lazarus plot, which was the focus of the season.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Chay.7852 said:What i would like to see - even if its not a popular opinion - having Kralk as an ally... Why do all elder dragons have to be bad?Bit late for Kralk, considering how many people he's killed, or enslaved by transforming them into monsters... one of the player factions was explicitly founded on the premise of seeing justice/revenge done for those deaths. It's the same problem that the folks agitating for Scarlet to turn out to be an antihero ran into.

@perilisk.1874 said:I'm hoping with LS5 that they break away from their 1 map, 1 episode pace (which, in lightthe latest episode, seems to be creating time/quality problems).From what I remember of the post-patch dev discussions, the problems weren't from the map, but from all the new tech they were playing with for the story and the instances, particularly the middle one.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@perilisk.1874 said:He didn't really have any responsibility for the two dragons becoming active or our activities in that regard, aside from being involved in the resolution of that subplot. But, technically, that was more of a main plot than PoF, if the main story of GW2 is about the Elder Dragons. The conflict between the White Mantle factions (and Mursaat, a bit) and the Shining Blade was much of a main plot as Balthazar.No, but the two dragons becoming active weren't the main story of the seasons, they were secondary plot devices later used as mcguffins to further the Baltha-Lazarus plot, which was the focus of the season.

I'd disagree with that, on account of time allocation, if nothing else. The Jormag/Primordus dyad had two entire episodes where they were the central conceit. (Granted, we arguably accomplished nothing in either of those episodes to advance that plot thread, but they were still the metaplot for the time spent.)

Lazazar, by contrast, was arguably the focus of the first episode without our knowledge, but only concretely the focus for the last two. That does mean he wins out over the other two, but not to the point where "everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly." The main portion of Rising Flames- stopping a volcanic eruption that would've wiped out Tyria- and of Head of the Snake didn't touch back to him in any way, nor did any portion of A Crack in the Ice. Considering that most of his involvement was packed into the end of the season- and the, shall we say, abrupt reveal that kicked off that section- I think it's fair to characterize the transition as a change in focus. It's certainly truer for S3 than it is for S1.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Season 3 had a "change of focus" really halfway through,Not really. Season 3, from the get-go, was, ultimately, Baltha-Lazarus's story, since it was him who caused the explosion at Bloodstone Fen in episode 1.

He was the primary villain the whole season, form start to finish, and basically everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly. That doesn't mean we didn't do other things, and deal with other things, since stories are never so singularly focused, but the focus of the season was always that story, from beginning to end.

Season 3 had four plots to it, really. Balthazar only really came in with Episode 5, where his appearance felt literally out of nowhere for players. Yes, he was planned by Anet from the beginning, but for all intents and purposes, there wasn't even the slightest of suggestions of his involvement until the end. We began Season 3 with the White Mantle, who's plot technically ended with Episode 4, just past the halfway point. Though the first half also shared with Primordus/Jormag activity, which similarly took the backseat once Balthazar showed up.

And in technicality, the first four raids were also part of the Season 3 plot, which all dealt with the White Mantle supporting Lazarus' rebirth, and the history of the mursaat/faithful White Mantle. In all practicality, Raids 1-4 and Episodes 1-4 of Season 3 is an entirely different plot than Episodes 5, where Episode 6 functions as a "catch all epilogue".

Like how the first half of Season 1 dealt more with Ellen Kiel until Queen's Jubilee where it was all about Scarlet; while "behind the scenes" Scarlet was involved with Flame and Frost and Dragon Bash, in the front row, Flame and Frost was more a break from Ellen Kiel who was involved with every other episode until Queen's Jubilee. Yet it was "one Season".

[Yannir.4132]

The main point of Season 3 was to close off loose threads from the unreasonably short mess of a story named HoT. People nowadays forget about the content drought after it which left story threads hanging for a long while until s3 came out. Some of those have yet to be resolved, like what the state of the Nightmare Court is currently.

When we are done with LWS4, I honestly hope we return to expanding Core Tyria. I've seen enough deserts for now.And TBH, I am not the least bit surprised that LWS4 rolls right into LWS5. I always knew that the estimated lentgh of s4 was on too short of an interval for expansion releases to make for the end of that.

Them needing the time s5 gives them is a telling sign that they are not going for Cantha, which I'm happy about. (nothing against Cantha as an expansion, I just don't want it as Expansion 3) Incubating new ideas takes a lot more time than working on an existing template.ORThey are working on something as major as a new race which also takes loads of time because of all the needed conversions, etc.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I'd disagree with that, on account of time allocation, if nothing else. The Jormag/Primordus dyad had two entire episodes where they were the central conceit. (Granted, we arguably accomplished nothing in either of those episodes to advance that plot thread, but they were still the metaplot for the time spent.)

Lazazar, by contrast, was arguably the focus of the first episode without our knowledge, but only concretely the focus for the last two. That does mean he wins out over the other two, but not to the point where "everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly." The main portion of Rising Flames- stopping a volcanic eruption that would've wiped out Tyria- and of Head of the Snake didn't touch back to him in any way, nor did any portion of A Crack in the Ice. Considering that most of his involvement was packed into the end of the season- and the, shall we say, abrupt reveal that kicked off that section- I think it's fair to characterize the transition as a change in focus. It's certainly truer for S3 than it is for S1.But again, the whole dragon plot tied into the, what was then, the larger Baltha-Lazarus plot because of Balthazar trying to take their power, and him using Taimi's machine to do so, a machine she only made because of the situation presented to us. The dragons were the secondary mcguffin, that caused the primary mcguffin, which ted into the main plot, and allowed Balthazar to gain al ot of the power he would later have. Literally everything that happened that season was to serve the Balthazar plot.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:SnipThat isn't how narrative design work Konig, as shown above, everything feds into the larger plot. The moment at which Balth reveals himself is ultimately irrelevant to if things were part of his story or not.

@Yannir.4132 said:Them needing the time s5 gives them is a telling sign that they are not going for Cantha, which I'm happy about. (nothing against Cantha as an expansion, I just don't want it as Expansion 3) Incubating new ideas takes a lot more time than working on an existing template.That isn't necessarily true. As you yourself pointed out, the estimated length of season 4 really didn't give Anet time to set up another expansion. We could very easily return to central Tyria for Season 5, and Season 5 ends up being a lot like Season 3 was, a hope around central Tyria to deal with things that ultimately leads to us going to Cantha for whatever reason. Not saying it is, but just saying that there being a Season 5 doesn't man the next expansion isn't Cantha.

Though I do wonder where Season 5 will take place,. I personally hope we go into the Woodland Cascades a bit myself.

[Yannir.4132]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:But again, the whole dragon plot tied into the, what was then, the larger Baltha-Lazarus plot because of Balthazar trying to take their power, and him using Taimi's machine to do so, a machine she only made because of the situation presented to us. The dragons were the secondary mcguffin, that caused the primary mcguffin, which ted into the main plot, and allowed Balthazar to gain al ot of the power he would later have. Literally everything that happened that season was to serve the Balthazar plot.

Except the whole Balthazar disguised as Lazarus idea. That really didn't serve the plot other than as a method of blindsiding the players. Cutting the thread on the Lazarus-plotline is neat by itself but I wish they would've included it some other way. S3E6 felt like a filler episode as a result of the way they constructed the plot.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I'd disagree with that, on account of time allocation, if nothing else. The Jormag/Primordus dyad had two entire episodes where they were the central conceit. (Granted, we arguably accomplished nothing in either of those episodes to advance that plot thread, but they were still the metaplot for the time spent.)

Lazazar, by contrast, was arguably the focus of the first episode without our knowledge, but only concretely the focus for the last two. That does mean he wins out over the other two, but not to the point where "everything we did was following his trail, or involved him, either directly or indirectly." The main portion of Rising Flames- stopping a volcanic eruption that would've wiped out Tyria- and of Head of the Snake didn't touch back to him in any way, nor did any portion of A Crack in the Ice. Considering that most of his involvement was packed into the end of the season- and the, shall we say, abrupt reveal that kicked off that section- I think it's fair to characterize the transition as a change in focus. It's certainly truer for S3 than it is for S1.But again, the whole dragon plot tied into the, what was then, the larger Baltha-Lazarus plot because of Balthazar trying to take their power, and him using Taimi's machine to do so, a machine she only made because of the situation presented to us. The dragons were the secondary mcguffin, that caused the primary mcguffin, which ted into the main plot, and allowed Balthazar to gain al ot of the power he would later have. Literally everything that happened that season was to serve the Balthazar plot.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:SnipThat isn't how narrative design work Konig, as shown above, everything feds into the larger plot. The moment at which Balth reveals himself is ultimately irrelevant to if things were part of his story or not.

Tying plots together doesn't make one plot supersede over the others. The Primordus and Jormag did end up leading into the Balthaddon plot, but that does not make the prior plots "irrelevant" as being separate plots.

Now, if they had properly hinted at and given attention to the existence of Balthazar earlier on rather than pulling it out of proverbial thin air at the climax, then I may agree that it was all one plot, but the White Mantle plot was both initiated and solved despite the minor attention to fake Lazarus that occurred between its climax and its epilogue, making it 100% its own plot that ran parallel (and I use that description loosely) to the Balthazar plot.

In the end, Episode 5 was its own plot that borrowed from other plots being told at the time. Whether this was intentional or not. And that borrowing does not mean it was all one plot.

[Genesis.8572]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Now, if they had properly hinted at and given attention to the existence of Balthazar earlier on rather than pulling it out of proverbial thin air at the climax, then I may agree that it was all one plot, but the White Mantle plot was both initiated and solved despite the minor attention to fake Lazarus that occurred between its climax and its epilogue, making it 100% its own plot that ran parallel (and I use that description loosely) to the Balthazar plot.

Part of the problem is that they had plenty of opportunities to seed Balthazar with Rytlock's return, but he was frustratingly lips sealed about everything. It would not even needed have been "Balthazar helped me," but just some nods to a man chained in the Mists who reignited the fire of his sword. Then Rytlock would also have later realized with us, "Oh, so that was Balthazar? Oops."

[Moonyeti.3296]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:I am curious to understand just what essential difference, is it just because there will be no more professions mechanics update(aka new elites) to be labeled the "expansion"?

Either way, keeping content with quality is what matters.

I think it's about time, we're saturated with elites and unbalaced professions atm.

It means that there won't be an expansion at all after Season 4, but will be like Seasons 1 and 2.

I'm not sure why they feel the need to differentiate the seasons, in this case. Especially if they don't have a release gap like between S1 and S2. The main reason Season 1 was even called a Season was because they changed design direction, from temporary to permanent content. Since Seasons 3 onward will be of the same design, if there's no gap like there wasn't for going into PoF and S4, I don't get why they feel the need to differentiate it as a new season. Or, for that matter, I still don't get why they feel they needed to close the Joko plot permanently so soon...

I could see there being a thematic reason, to keep thematic story arcs separate. That is, if there was an overarching story direction for season 4 that was largely different from season 5. If the individual episodes are closer to their own story arcs though, I think that they shouldn't bother with 'seasons' and just stick to episodes. I think what I am saying is that if we can look back after all season 4 and 5 is released and see 2 general storylines it will make sense. If we look back and see a bunch of stuff that led into a bunch of other stuff willy nilly, it probably didn't make sense to divide them.

[Ephemiel.5694]

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:So let me get this straight. They'll go straight to Season 5, without any expansion in-between apparently [which does not bode well at all btw], yet they ended Joko's story early to focus on Kralkatorrik? Why didn't they just expand Season 4, finish the story of Joko and THEN go into Season 5 to finish the fight with Kralk?We have no idea what the main threat will be in the second half of Season 4 yet (which may be more than exactly 3 chapters). Everyone assumes it'll be Kralk, and that's a reasonable assumption, but we still have no way to kill him and not blow up the world. It may be that the Order of Shadows has a new threat in Elona that will move back north to Tyria, or they are the new threat. Hopefully we'll get a hint next month, maybe in the next week or two...?

As for the numbering of the seasons, I think after they established an overarching narrative to each season (1 being Scarlet, like it or not; 2 is the rise of Mordremoth; 3 is the return of Lazarus/Balthazar), they want to keep the pattern before a season becomes too unwieldly. If there were a hypothetical Season 1 package that could be bought, it'd have over 20 chapters (many of which overlap, like 4 steps in Frost and Fire could be condensed to 1 chapter, and the 2nd SBA release just adding World 2), which is daunting to a new player coming along. 6-8 bite-sized chapters seems easier to digest and catch up on for a few gems.

.....we all think it'll be Kralk because ANet themselves have said they shortened Joko's story in other to finish Kralkatorrik's. It's not us making assumptions.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:So let me get this straight. They'll go straight to Season 5, without any expansion in-between apparently [which does not bode well at all btw], yet they ended Joko's story early to focus on Kralkatorrik? Why didn't they just expand Season 4, finish the story of Joko and THEN go into Season 5 to finish the fight with Kralk?We have no idea what the main threat will be in the second half of Season 4 yet (which may be more than exactly 3 chapters). Everyone assumes it'll be Kralk, and that's a reasonable assumption, but we still have no way to kill him and not blow up the world. It may be that the Order of Shadows has a new threat in Elona that will move back north to Tyria, or they are the new threat. Hopefully we'll get a hint next month, maybe in the next week or two...?

As for the numbering of the seasons, I think after they established an overarching narrative to each season (1 being Scarlet, like it or not; 2 is the rise of Mordremoth; 3 is the return of Lazarus/Balthazar), they want to keep the pattern before a season becomes too unwieldly. If there were a hypothetical Season 1 package that could be bought, it'd have over 20 chapters (many of which overlap, like 4 steps in Frost and Fire could be condensed to 1 chapter, and the 2nd SBA release just adding World 2), which is daunting to a new player coming along. 6-8 bite-sized chapters seems easier to digest and catch up on for a few gems.

.....we all think it'll be Kralk because ANet themselves have said they shortened Joko's story in other to finish Kralkatorrik's. It's not us making assumptions.

Technically they said "purple menace" (unless there was a later comment after the LLtL AMA), though it would be weird if suddenly out of the blue a brand new Branded dragon champion comes in to play the role of Shadow of the Dragon / Blightghast the Plaguebringer.

That said, it is entirely plausible that at the time, what we now know as "Season 4 and Season 5" was simply "Season 4", and the rest of Season 4 will be dealing with the aftermath of Joko, rather than going straight to handle an Elder Dragon in 2-3 episodes (it would be an even bigger insult to injury if they didn't spend at least half an episode dealing with the aftermath of Joko's death, when they seeded in so many plot hooks for a "post-Joko anarchy" situation).

[Imba.9451]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Technically they said "purple menace"

Can you tell me when and where exactly this got mentioned?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Imba.9451 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Technically they said "purple menace"

Can you tell me when and where exactly this got mentioned?

IIRC (it has been a couple months now) it was in the Long Live the Lich AMA (or it was in a response to responses to the AMA), in responses regarding the shortness of Joko's camera time in the story.

EDIT: After much an adequate amount of searching, the only place I can find "purple menace" mentioned is during Eye of the Brandstorm. None of the AMA responses about Joko's short camera time held that. My bad.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That said, it is entirely plausible that at the time, what we now know as "Season 4 and Season 5" was simply "Season 4", and the rest of Season 4 will be dealing with the aftermath of Joko, rather than going straight to handle an Elder Dragon in 2-3 episodes (it would be an even bigger insult to injury if they didn't spend at least half an episode dealing with the aftermath of Joko's death, when they seeded in so many plot hooks for a "post-Joko anarchy" situation).

Yeah the world changing in desert is faster, and and the time-frozen map problem. We have a branded Amnon, and 3 maps with strong presence of the awakened with traces of Joko everywhere: Elon riverlands, the Desolation and Vabbi. (I'm not even counting the maps that appeared in LS4).

Considering how many people wanted Joko's head, I wonder if there will be some kind of celebration party.

I still can not understand that Joko being dismissed as a side-villain. 3 maps in the main story of PoF + LS maps (Kourna and Istan) shaped by Awakened presence, countless enemies and people wanting revenge on him.

[Genesis.8572]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:I still can not understand that Joko being dismissed as a side-villain. 3 maps in the main story of PoF + LS maps (Kourna and Istan) shaped by Awakened presence, countless enemies and people wanting revenge on him.He is a side-villain in that he was never really our main focus in the story. He's a distraction from our primary goals. If he had not sought revenge, we probably would have continued onward without paying his rule over Elona much mind except as a hurdle felt through his Awakened forces, as it was before we discovered that he had been locked-up in the Mists.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Genesis.8572 said:He is a side-villain in that he was never really our main focus in the story. He's a distraction from our primary goals. If he had not sought revenge, we probably would have continued onward without paying his rule over Elona much mind except as a hurdle felt through his Awakened forces, as it was before we discovered that he had been locked-up in the Mists.^This

Even in Path of Fire, the Awakened were just a force in the area we naturally had to go through in our chase of Balthazar, they were never the actual focus of the story in terms of villains, and were only really there to serve as an army we could steal to fight Balthazar's army.

I honestly expect them to do largely the same for the Canthan empire whenever, and if ever, we go to Cantha.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

I think it boils down to what you're actually talking about.

In terms of plot, yes, Joko was a side-villain, always has been.

In terms of setting, he was very much a major villain.

In terms of character... that basically boils down to a popularity contest, but I think most people here would agree that he had a more compelling personality than Kralkatorrik.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@ugrakarma.9416 said:I still can not understand that Joko being dismissed as a side-villain. 3 maps in the main story of PoF + LS maps (Kourna and Istan) shaped by Awakened presence, countless enemies and people wanting revenge on him.He is a side-villain in that he was never really our main focus in the story. He's a distraction from our primary goals. If he had not sought revenge, we probably would have continued onward without paying his rule over Elona much mind except as a hurdle felt through his Awakened forces, as it was before we discovered that he had been locked-up in the Mists.

He was a side villain because ArenaNet chose to make him such. He could have been a major villain, as could have Caudecus and Lazarus, just as Scarlet Briar was. He had the army, the resources, and the power. And most importantly, he had the character for one.

More than Scarlet Briar did, and she was our first (and so far only) non-Elder Dragon/god major villain. And one that came after an Elder Dragon, no less, so it's not like ArenaNet feels the need to always up the ante with the following major villains.

Gaheron, Caudecus, Lazarus, Joko, Adelbern, Kudu; these are all figures who had major status and power in lore, that ArenaNet regulated to a side villain. They could have been major villains had ArenaNet wanted to do so, as they're no less special than Scarlet Briar. They simply chose not to.

And if what I heard about the Sixth Anniversary videos is true (as I've not bothered to watch), sounds like some devs regret not making Joko a more important villain to the plot.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:just as Scarlet Briar was.Scarlet was never really a major villain though, she was an important henchwomnan to a major villain, but still, a hench none the less.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:just as Scarlet Briar was.Scarlet was never really a major villain though, she was an important henchwomnan to a major villain, but still, a hench none the less.

That hench got 20 living world episodes and more than fourteen months of real-world time... and we're still not sure if she was a servant or a pawn, what she was trying to accomplish by waking Mordremoth, or how much Mordremoth was consciously aware of what she was doing. There's not a solid case to be made that she was just a proxy the way, say, Blightghast was, so I'd say her role counts as 'major villain'.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:just as Scarlet Briar was.Scarlet was never really a major villain though, she was an important henchwomnan to a major villain, but still, a hench none the less.

Not really. Yes, her death led the way for another villain, but she was still a major villain with her entire own plot of her own. Your argument is akin to saying Khilbron and Shiro Tagachi were not major villains just because they ended up as generals under Abaddon. They were major villains though, because they had an entire game dedicated to them as the villain of the plot.

Even the Shadow of the Dragon is a major villain, despite if it was just the power in front of another known power. In a similar argument, Sovereign was the main villain of Mass Effect 1, all the while being a henchman of Harbinger, the head honcho of the trilogy's villains. Major villains aren't made by their lore, but their placement in the story's development.

[Ephemiel.5694]

We also need to take into account that, out of all the characters from GW1 that people wanted to see, Palawa Joko was usually at the top of the list.

People WANTED to see him, wanted him to be a threat that we had to handle, so the fan support was clearly there from the start.

[derd.6413]

@Ephemiel.5694 said:We also need to take into account that, out of all the characters from GW1 that people wanted to see, Palawa Joko was usually at the top of the list.

People WANTED to see him, wanted him to be a threat that we had to handle, so the fan support was clearly there from the start.

just because ppl wanted more of him doesn't mean he has to be the focus for a long time. besides i'm predicting tht now he's dead he'll probably get into a verbal slappy fight with king thorn on Halloween (which they totally can from a lore perspective) so it's not like there will be no more joko ever (just not as part of the main story).