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Only 5 unique combatants can combo with a given combo field


Dediggefedde.4961

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Lately we have a bit of fun with smoke fields in a 25 player zerg.However, we noticed that not all players get the full stealth duration while other don't get stealth at all.We use 1 smoke field (engi smoke bomb) and 2 guys blasting in each group (guard/rev with hammer/staff).Everyone is stacked within the 360 distance limit.At some point, blast labels are not displayed anymore when blasting.When using a second smoke field (2nd engi, same position, ~same trigger time) everything works.

Friends doing GvGs were telling us, they use one thief smoke field for everyone. But I also remember the time when we were supposed to blast lightning fields for speed and not all blasts were triggering...

Now I found this comment in the wiki page (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo):"Only 5 unique combatants can combo with a given combo field."which is cited from the patch notes of 2012.

That would roughly fit with our observation, but 5 people blasting appear to be a bit few.Is this still up to date?If not, is there a new limit for players triggering the field (NOT affected by the field; that's still 5)?Maybe something smoke-field/WvW-specific?

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@"Sovereign.1093" said:tested last year. 10 of us. we blast field, long invis. as for blob, we tried not all got hidden or only for a moment.invis from fields probably best at max within 5 to 15.

This might be in agreement to the 5 unique player limit.For 10 people, 2 groups, and 4-6 blasts per group you get 12-18s invis.for 15 this would mean, one group gets 6s less stealth.

But it also might be, that the "5 unique players" are not meant as "first 5", but "5 at a time" or "5 within timespan", so after 1-2s another 5 are taken...

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:tested last year. 10 of us. we blast field, long invis. as for blob, we tried not all got hidden or only for a moment.invis from fields probably best at max within 5 to 15.

This might be in agreement to the 5 unique player limit.For 10 people, 2 groups, and 4-6 blasts per group you get 12-18s invis.for 15 this would mean, one group gets 6s less stealth.

But it also might be, that the "5 unique players" are not meant as "first 5", but "5 at a time" or "5 within timespan", so after 1-2s another 5 are taken...

so fas has been random for us. =) so just the right no. is best.

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Ok....

GvG groups tend to have 15 people in fight, up to 20 in borderlands.Thief drops 2 stealth fields, which means 10 people can blast.Smoke field stealth only stacks 5 times.

G can blast 3 times.W 4 times (tactics trait, powerful synergy and than you switch it out for another traitline)R 3 times....

With a G and W in a party guardian ussualy blasts with hammer and focus and warrior with longbow and warhorn. This results in 6 blasts, by 2 people in a party, which would overstack stealth, but you have to remember that blasting takes some time and thus 6 blasts per party are required for max duration of 15s(which is a bit random anything of 12+ is great).Without warrior you have to use 3 people(well there are exclusions with ele and rev+guard). Again have 3 people do 6 blasts in total per party and you will get max stealth.

For a normal 15 man group you would have min 6(max 10) people blasting 2 smoke fields provided by 1 thief. It is the first 5 people per combo field that take the finisher and thus removing combo potential for rest of the duration of the combo field.

Remember to not blast before both fields are deployed as than you will blast first one and a second one and take away from the 5 combo limit on both fields.

It really requires some practice as people tend to screw it up a lot, ether through blasting to fast, outright missing the field, laying symbol on smoke,....

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@SloRules.3560 said:Thief drops 2 stealth fields, which means 10 people can blast....

Thanks for the explanation!But are you sure on the 5 player limit per field?

with our setup it also works, but only with two smoke fields.That is no problem, since we always have two engis (at the moment one heal scrapper, one conversion holo).Then, for 25 people, engis blast 4 times, revs and guard 2 times. That's enough for 12-15s stealth for each group.

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

@SloRules.3560 said:Thief drops 2 stealth fields, which means 10 people can blast....

Thanks for the explanation!But are you sure on the 5 player limit per field?

with our setup it also works, but only with two smoke fields.That is no problem, since we always have two engis (at the moment one heal scrapper, one conversion holo).Then, for 25 people, engis blast 4 times, revs and guard 2 times. That's enough for 12-15s stealth for each group.

I am sure on 5 player limit yea. I've been stealth blasting for years now.

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@"DemonSeed.3528" said:So a safer setup is to seperate into groups of the cap and blast and then regroup?

Of course, that's second safest to "everyone blasts his own smoke field".The problem here is, that each group needs a smoke field per 10-12 people.If you use the same smoke field, you might get into the effect radius of 360.Thief pistol-5 has range 900, so one should still be enough for two groups.

So, if you are below 20, just split up to 2*10, get one smoke field in each group and you can safely stack.Or 3 fields for 30. If you use have 25 people and use two groups, then one group only has one blaster. This results either in half the stealth length or you need to have one group with one blaster that has more than 3 blasts (like engi).

But in principle everyone should be stealthed safely if you just stick within 360 radius and have enough smoke fields in zerg and blast finishers per group. The key point would be that people with less blast finisher would not blast at all...

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Sadly that is the only viable field in wvw these days even frost / water fields are lacking out put but stealth on blast is so unique of an effect but it will stay viable even with this odd way of caping. If any thing you may get smoke field nerf to the level of the other fields by bring this up.

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Can we back up a second? This thread started about the mechanics of blasting a field (how many blasts/how many players) and turned into something about combo fields need fixing. I'm not seeing that there is something even broken with them and the conversation is getting muddled and confused. It sounds more like the wiki needs to be clarified.

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@SloRules.3560 said:Why are people complicating soo much?Just watch a few GvG videos, there are a lot of blasts there and theory got provided by me already.Sorry. ^^However, some might be interested to make it viable for open field fights in zergs above 20 players.And it actually can work, even in publics.The idea to split a guild zerg to ensure stealth is interesting, since you prevent some ways of messing up (taking a 5-man slot in both fields).However, you need a smoke field in all groups and no group beyond 10 people with only 2-3 blasting people per group to ensure equal stealth time.

@Chaba.5410 said:This thread started about the mechanics of blasting a field [...] and turned into something about combo fields need fixing.The wiki needs to be clarified.Thanks, you are right about the topic.However, the wiki is fine, since it states there that only 5 unique people can trigger a field.My problem was, that this information came from 2012, so it might have been outdated.Maybe add an annotation in the quotation source link that in 9.18 it was confirmed by testing.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:wow this is disgusting. I had no idea. combo fields need a serious update.Combo field effects might need an upgrade.However, the cap was introduced so a single water field in a zerg won't let you counter-heal all damage in a zerg.So, this is actually helping smaller zergs by letting them trigger roughly the same amount of fields as bigger zergs.

But if you think otherwise, why don't you open another thread about that topic?

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According to our tests, everything is fine as long as you have

  1. max. only 2 blasting people (=blasters) in each group
  2. min. at least N blasts in each group
  3. min 1 smoke field for max 10 people
  4. min 2 smoke fields for max 25 people
  5. min 3 smoke fields for max 35 people
  6. min 4 smoke fields for max 50 people

Then you get N*3 seconds stealth for everyone in the zerg.In case 3 and 5 you can have up to 15/40 people with stealth, but 5 people will only get half the duration.Some Engineer builds can have >4 blasts, so they (and similar builds) can take the place of two blasters in those cases.

max-players=(round-off(smoke-fields * 5 unique-blasters / 2 blasters-per-group) * 5 people-per-group)
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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:

  1. max. only 2 blasting people (=blasters) in each group

Some Engineer builds can have >4 blasts, so they (and similar builds) can take the place of two blasters in those cases.

I don't think it is clear regarding the distinction between number of players using blast finishers and the number of blast finishers an individual is using.

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:According to our tests, everything is fine as long as you have

  1. max. only 2 blasting people (=blasters) in each group
  2. min. at least N blasts in each group
  3. min 1 smoke field for max 10 people
  4. min 2 smoke fields for max 25 people
  5. min 3 smoke fields for max 35 people
  6. min 4 smoke fields for max 50 people

Then you get N*3 seconds stealth for everyone in the zerg.In case 3 and 5 you can have up to 15/40 people with stealth, but 5 people will only get half the duration.Some Engineer builds can have >4 blasts, so they (and similar builds) can take the place of two blasters in those cases.

max-players=(round-off(smoke-fields * 5 unique-blasters / 2 blasters-per-group) * 5 people-per-group)

Very interesting information. I'd always wondered why organized zerg busting groups were never able to properly pull off smoke blast engages after the update to squads/party prioritization of effects. Seems with this info a well organized large scale group should be able to as long as pugs following them don't ruin it by blasting the fields.

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