I want more challenge in this game

[Linken.6345]

@ChronosCosmos.9450 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

Yeah, I feel you. GW1's story and characters were phenomenal. Shiro, Lich, Togo, Abbaddon, the 5 gods, Zaishen, and Heralds. Amazing. Eye of the north and the heroes had amazing backgrounds too.

it was 6 gods in gw1 wasent it?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Amaranthe.3578 said:I think that one of the main philosophy s of the famefame is having little to no challange in pve

Based on most of the responses here and the thread asking for safeMode for story bosses, I reluctantly have to agree with you.

I guess I was under the impression that most people wanted some form of a challenge.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

@Linken.6345 said:

@ChronosCosmos.9450 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

Yeah, I feel you. GW1's story and characters were phenomenal. Shiro, Lich, Togo, Abbaddon, the 5 gods, Zaishen, and Heralds. Amazing. Eye of the north and the heroes had amazing backgrounds too.

it was 6 gods in gw1 wasent it?

Yes and no. There were the five known and worshipped Gods, and then Abaddon who was sealed. It's only after Nightfall that Humanity started to worship the 'Six.'

[Karaha.3290]

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them?Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy.Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS.

Because that's what the story are for? To tell a Story?With your argumentation you couldn't take any game seriously, apart from Detroit: Become Human.

Sure you can die your way through the story, but that's a good and more or less a necessary point. Just because you have to make sure everybody gets through the story no matter how good they are. And tbh, on a casual/"no-pro" pov, the story gets kinda hard since HoT.

Mainpoint for the story is the story, not the challenging content. For challenging content you have Fractals and Raids.

[Edelweiss.4261]

I've never understood this need for challenge. Challenge is ever present in life, so I imagine you want a challenge specific to this game. I guess you could time yourself and see how quickly you can do it. Maybe see how high you can get your dps? There are tons of ways to find challenge without forcing it on others if you really seek it.

[zealex.9410]

@Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

I played GW1 too, and i have no idea what you're talking about. The big boss fights in story missions weren't exactly rough there either. I remember getting to the Lich to be much harder than actually killing him, Abbadon not being as threatening as he looked, and Shiro and the Great Destroyer being easily-cheesed pushovers. The final boss of EotN, built up over the entire game as a legendary foe, can be annihilated in a minute, with most of that time spent walking over to him so you can cast one single pain inverter.

If you wanted decent challenge you didn't get it in the story. You went to elite areas, or went vanquishing, and even then, most of the tougher vanquishes were only bad if you pulled too many or RNG gave you an obnoxious enemy comp to deal with. Speaking of taunting gods to their face, Abbadon in hard mode is not nearly as difficult as fighting a group of regular awakened with 3 cavaliers if you forgot to bring frozen soil.

Admittedly, it would be nice if there was an optional hard mode for story bosses, even if it was just "Allies don't res you, and enemy HP always resets to 100% if you die".

Recently i did the eotn finale. The boss lava waved us and wiped the group so we hard to restart.

[zealex.9410]

OP i dont think its anywhere imploed that u cant be killed (as pc). In ep3 the Queens merely state that u are immune to the scarab plague.

[Game of Bones.8975]

Play with Rare armor and weapons.Use an inferior build.Reset your key-bound movements back to default.Play with a cat walking on your keyboard.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

Raids have a story element.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.Repairing armour is free.Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

[zenleto.6179]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:I think that one of the main philosophy s of the famefame is having little to no challange in pve

Based on most of the responses here and the thread asking for safeMode for story bosses, I reluctantly have to agree with you.

I guess I was under the impression that most people wanted some form of a challenge.

This is why you shouldn't assume you know what 'most' people want. Go with 'some' or 'many' and you're on safer ground.

[Lucius.2140]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

Hardcore mode: more achievements, titles and rewards. Cons: One dead = start again that instance.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made

easier

. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

It literally can't be easier at this point because you can already clear everything with certainty.Any 'failure' or 'death' is rewarded with instant revival, while damaged mobs and bosses remain damaged.Repairing armour is free.Sometimes NPCs res you on the spot, sometimes not, very inconsistent.

What I'm getting at is, people asking for the game to get easier fail to say that it's already impossible to fail

I'm guessing many players don't agree; else, they would not be asking for easier Story mode. /shrugHearts and Mind comes to mind, for one.

Regardless, that isn't the question. Who should ArenaNet listen to when there are opposing views/suggestions?

[otto.5684]

@"Ayakaru.6583" said:I mean, for real, why should we have to take Balthazar and Joko seriously, if we LITERALLY cannot lose to them?Every duel with a boss follows the same pattern, you put in half an effort, and you kill the boss with easy.Or you just laze away, half-minded, and the boss kills you a few times, but no worries, because THERE ARE NO FAIL CONDITIONS.There literally isn't a point to having a health bar, because once the health bar hits zero, it just goes back to full and you can keep fighting.Even if you're somehow so bad you keep dying until you're in your underwear, as long as you keep hitting that respawn button, you can kill Balthazar in your swim shorts.

So thats what I'm asking, why do we even care about the big villains if they're INCAPABLE of defeating us? We can literally keep nibbling away at them at our weakest, and they can't do anything to stop us.

And it's not just from a mechanical point of view, we're even immortal in the story.Apparantly, having died once, makes us immune to dying again, according to LS4-3, which didn't make any sense to me, at all.What, so we're incorporeal now? the beetles can't dig into us, lay eggs, and eat us up from the inside because our bodies have already been dead once before?

I am PLEADING you, anet, give the bosses some fail conditions, let them win for a change. Give us a reason to take their fights seriously?Otherwise we can all just go on vacation and send a swarm of Skritt and Quaggans to go kill the next boss.

The whole talk about Generation III bugs had me hoping there would be a story point where Joko unleashes the plague, and we lose, and we have to cleanse, purge, or downright burn down an entire society or something. To keep it from spreading.When we stormed that palace of his, and the gates broken, I thought "here it is".Only to have a bunch of ghosts say "we'll keep them contained".Then what was the whole point of the plague?There was never any risk if we only needed a few ghosts to end the plague.The plague was a sort of MacGuffin, but now it's just a background drop.

Give the villains some slack, anet, please, give us a reason to actually WANT to defeat them

While I think your issue is mostly with LWS4 (I do as well, the content is terrible), do we really want to up the difficulty? Remember, the story difficulty is made in a way that a player with limited experience and knowledge, can progress through it with ease.

Even for veteran players like me, it will only be a matter changing builds and gear. My main is guardian DH/core power build, in mostly berserker gear. If difficulty goes up, I will go the sPvP gear route and play radiant core with mostly Valkyrie and meditation line. Is this really an increase in difficulty or inconvenience?

[Kaynide.5387]

Solution seems easy to me; just have enter hard mode vanquishing for sweet loot a la GW1. In GW 2 it could just be certain zones, or even parts of zones where the player must kill every single monster (monsters don't respond, and if the party is wiped once that’s it, game over).

Gw2 could take it a step farther and have a version of the big meta bosses in each zone pop upon clearing the zone or meeting certain conditions. Tequatl vs a single group.. sounds interesting.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"googel.3278" said:same stuff done differently. what more anet has to offer? garbage lore followed by recycled content. anet only cares about milking players with black lion chests and skins for these little role players that ruins the game

How rude to blame role-players for the Gem Store "milking". Seriously, I doubt you know what a role-player is if you truly believe that they are the only ones buying those skins. They are not solely responsible for turning GW2 into "Fashion Wars", but it's always easier to point fingers and put blame on certain groups when you feel powerless about something, eh? Sounds like contemporary politics.

FYI, the people designing the Gem Store items have zero to do with the story/lore department or the devs who design the fights, so one has nothing to do with the (supposed) lack of quality regarding the other. What you are truly mad about is the way ANet prioritizes their content, which is no one else's fault.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Here's one idea, to make the meta's more exciting.Close off the meta area, if you die, you die.That way, people will actually have to work together, and keep each other up, rather than "I'm not rezzing you, there's a waypoint down the hall".

[Gehenna.3625]

@ChronosCosmos.9450 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

Yeah, I feel you. GW1's story and characters were phenomenal. Shiro, Lich, Togo, Abbaddon, the 5 gods, Zaishen, and Heralds. Amazing. Eye of the north and the heroes had amazing backgrounds too.

Of course that could have to do with the story telling more than the encounter difficulty. And of course the class and combat system were much more clear and the game did have the trinity in it and was indeed group based. It's amazing what kind of difference the trinity can make to combat encounters. You just didn't go out on a mission without 2 healers and a tank to take the initial aggro (though admittedly minions often filled that role but the role was there).

I understand why people pick at specific things but just like there are meta builds and events in this game there is a meta way of looking at the game itself and there you see that many things are connected. The simple fact that this game was not built around a trinity but basically all DPS classes with support options and universal dodge and ress mechanics, including the downed status, makes that this game works very differently and therefore combat encounters as well. They had to introduce new specs to enable raiding because those roles needed to be filled somehow.

I guess between chrono's and druids and the rest DPS, there isn't that much difference anymore with traditional MMOs in that respect. But as much as the lack of the trinity in the core of this game created some interesting opportunities, it also closed some doors. I enjoy soloing through the open world and jumping in with bigger events and world bosses as I run into them, but it's more the event than the combat encounter that makes it fun.

The other thing is that trinity MMOs also need to take into account that tanks and healers have lower DPS output per definition and though there can certainly be a difference between players who are just strolling around or those who mastered their classes, the difference in DPS output seems to be more regulated. From my experience (and I clearly didn't play all MMOs), I can see that in those games a player with a DPS class can do two, maybe three times the DPS of someone who "has no clue". In this game the factor is more like 4-5 times that. That is actually a significant range that is very unfortunate and has consequences. I mean, trying to make an encounter interesting for people who do 2k damage and 9k damage (a range someone else suggested) is infinitely more challenging to get right, then when the range would've been 2k-5K damage. In a 2k-9k range, the middle is at 5.5k. So they might have set the baseline experience at 5k. However for people who are close to the 9k DPS, this will be a piece of cake automatically, whereas for the people at 2k it takes forever. In a range of 2k-5K of possible output, the baseline experience would be around 3.5k and then we see that for someone with low DPS the baseline experience takes less than twice the time for someone who is just messing around. For those who max their output at 5k in that scenario, it's still relatively easy but not nearly as easy as they are roughly 50% over the DPS target instead of 80%.

The thing also is that DPS is measured over time. It means Damage Per Second and this means that it's not just about gearing and using the right build and rotation, it also has to do with how you move in the encounter. So in this game that means dodging damage is a big factor as well. So it's about being able to do damage while moving around also. In SWTOR (which I played a lot and raided a lot in), I was primarily a healer, but the class I played also had a lot of mobility. So next to learning how to heal and use my class and all that, I had to learn how to move and heal at the same time. Once I did, it increased my ability to heal under many more circumstances, but it wasn't necessarily easy to get to that point. So I will never assume that what I can do is easy or simple.

Same thing applies here, if you have a hard time doing damage while dodging out of 1000 circles, then your DPS goes down considerably. It's one thing to do 5k or 9k damage on a dummy and quite another to do that in an actual fight. Getting out of damage circles is certainly something that happens in other games, but not like here. I've never seen so many circles as in this game.

I fully recognize that a lot of players have more difficulty with their DPS than the people here who so condescendingly ridicule others for not being as good, while in the same process underestimating their own abilities ironically. But where in the past the games could be built around more avid players that were all about the challenge, players have changed or at least a lot of them. People are more casual about the game because there are a lot of older players that have this "been there done that, got the t-shirt" feeling about this challenge bit, probably thanks to the endless gear treadmills in other MMOs and there is a newer group of players that has been attracted to MMOs because MMOs actually do more than just offer challenge. There is the so-called horizontal progression that takes place more and more because just combat encounter oriented games are losing terrain.

Now there should still be combat and challenge but it's more about when and where. It's no longer a given because the people who play these games are just not the same type of gamers as 10-20 years ago. I've seen the scoffs of players telling others to go play second life or something, but the truth is that games like this do offer a big social aspect as well and a beautifully crafted world to hang out in (which is rather superior to games like second life if you ask me). So the social and cosmetic aspects have become more and more important and that changes also what games are about and focus on.

[Amaranthe.3578]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:I think that one of the main philosophy s of the famefame is having little to no challange in pve

Based on most of the responses here and the thread asking for safeMode for story bosses, I reluctantly have to agree with you.

I guess I was under the impression that most people wanted some form of a challenge.

PvE Challange in mmos comes from instances group content which is ab afterthought in gw2.

[phs.6089]

@Scud.5067 said:Difficulty Select:

I'm Too Young To Die - Mobs have 25% less healthHurt Me Plenty - Normal modeUltra Violence - Mobs have 25% more health and do 20% more damageNightmare - Mobs have 50% more health, do 25% more damage and each instance has its own time limit.Ultra Nightmare - As Nightmare, but if you die, it resets the story to the beginning of the chain.

you just want the wither 2 game mods in gw2 but wait it is too hard to develop just like easy mods for raids, so no

Ultra Nightmare is a meh name, try Insanity and it should reset to the begging of the story.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I agree with Ayakaru on this one. Also I think he didn't word it quite right. This isn't really meant to make the story more challenging, insomuch as to give it a better structure.

Its something I've said before. The way that story missions handle failure is poorly designed, and it is unlike everything else in the entire game. To have you constantly corpse rush the boss with no true means of failure makes any progress a hollow victory, while also demeaning you on death. This also makes achievement hunting a pain, since a lot of achievements will fail on death, and in order to try again you have to restart the client and sit through several loading screens. The argument that people have for maintaining this system is essentially just self loathing about how bad they feel their own skill level is, and having this system just reinforces this problem.

I mentioned Cuphead last time, but I'll use a different example. You know how in Megaman, if you die at the boss the game puts you right outside the boss? Yeah, that. What GW2 story mode should have is a checkpoint room right before the boss, and if you are ever defeated the game will send you there and restart the boss. More importantly, it should reset every single achievement tied to that boss. Put an anvil in there so people can repair broken gear. That way, a player gets a limitless number of attempts to fight the boss, under the stipulation that they have to defeat the entire boss in one full stride. This system respects the boss, respects the player, and makes death meaningful while also cheap. There's a reason why it works everywhere else in the entire game.

If there are problems with certain fights being too difficult, then those fights themselves can be adjusted to be easier. It is much better than having a system that emotionally flogs you with every death.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I agree with Ayakaru on this one. Also I think he didn't word it quite right. This isn't really meant to make the story more challenging, insomuch as to give it a better structure.

Its something I've said before. The way that story missions handle failure is poorly designed, and it is unlike everything else in the entire game. To have you constantly corpse rush the boss with no true means of failure makes any progress a hollow victory, while also demeaning you on death. This also makes achievement hunting a pain, since a lot of achievements will fail on death, and in order to try again you have to restart the client and sit through several loading screens. The argument that people have for maintaining this system is essentially just self loathing about how bad they feel their own skill level is, and having this system just reinforces this problem.

I mentioned Cuphead last time, but I'll use a different example. You know how in Megaman, if you die at the boss the game puts you right outside the boss? Yeah, that. What GW2 story mode should have is a checkpoint room right before the boss, and if you are ever defeated the game will send you there and restart the boss. More importantly, it should reset every single achievement tied to that boss. Put an anvil in there so people can repair broken gear. That way, a player gets a limitless number of attempts to fight the boss, under the stipulation that they have to defeat the entire boss in one full stride. This system respects the boss, respects the player, and makes death meaningful while also cheap. There's a reason why it works everywhere else in the entire game.

If there are problems with certain fights being too difficult, then those fights themselves can be adjusted to be easier. It is much better than having a system that emotionally flogs you with every death.

well, you worded it a lot better than I did.

In retrospect, I also like to think of Hollow Knight, now.Most of the bosses difficulty come from learning the patterns, and learning to adapt the bosses' various skills.In GW2 most of the bosses are identical, they stand still in one corner of the room, sometimes running away to another side. It's practically a target practice run. Any difficulty is not set out by handling their abilities, but through raw health sponge combat. Can you do more dps than the boss, or outheal the boss' dps? then you win.

and same with the Cuphead analogy, you get one try on a full boss run, no corpse running. And similarly, every boss has its own abilities and mechanics, rather than fighting the same boss over and over with a different skin/animation.

I am just reminded of the Broken King in the new raid wing. He seems to be an amalgamation of the Balthazar fight, and the space-woman from the fractals with her bouncy ball.

and I agree how annoying some of those achievements are. I can even remember a completely arbitrary one: the first Challenge in Tarir, where you have to defeat a set of dragon minions in one go without dying. But that achievement is entirely without purpose, because if you die, you lose the progress, but the entire fight resets anyway. So the only criteria is actually "clear it after listening to all the dialogue, or relisten to all the dialogue again".

[Vayne.8563]

@Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

I played GW1 too, and i have no idea what you're talking about. The big boss fights in story missions weren't exactly rough there either. I remember getting to the Lich to be much harder than actually killing him, Abbadon not being as threatening as he looked, and Shiro and the Great Destroyer being easily-cheesed pushovers. The final boss of EotN, built up over the entire game as a legendary foe, can be annihilated in a minute, with most of that time spent walking over to him so you can cast one single pain inverter.

If you wanted decent challenge you didn't get it in the story. You went to elite areas, or went vanquishing, and even then, most of the tougher vanquishes were only bad if you pulled too many or RNG gave you an obnoxious enemy comp to deal with. Speaking of taunting gods to their face, Abbadon in hard mode is not nearly as difficult as fighting a group of regular awakened with 3 cavaliers if you forgot to bring frozen soil.

Admittedly, it would be nice if there was an optional hard mode for story bosses, even if it was just "Allies don't res you, and enemy HP always resets to 100% if you die".

I agree with this. I didn't feel that any of the fights on Guild Wars 1 in story were particularly hard.

[flog.3485]

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:There's a 200+ post thread on this page suggesting Story Content be made easier. Who should ArenaNet listen to?

Well that would mean they hit the medium spot in terms of difficulty. Which is exactly what story difficulty should be. Obviously they shouldn’t listen to neither post threads imo.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:Go play raids if you want challenge.

I already am, but I got into this game for the story.I played GW1 and GW2 because it has an amazing world, with amazing villains. And if you played GW1 you will know what Imean when I say how dumbed down GW2 has become.

At this point it has nothing to do with 'wanting challenge' anymore. But the most basic respect we're supposed to have for our villains.Instead, our characters are just gods who can even taunt the actual gods at this point.

I played GW1 too, and i have no idea what you're talking about. The big boss fights in story missions weren't exactly rough there either. I remember getting to the Lich to be much harder than actually killing him, Abbadon not being as threatening as he looked, and Shiro and the Great Destroyer being easily-cheesed pushovers. The final boss of EotN, built up over the entire game as a legendary foe, can be annihilated in a minute, with most of that time spent walking over to him so you can cast one single pain inverter.

If you wanted decent challenge you didn't get it in the story. You went to elite areas, or went vanquishing, and even then, most of the tougher vanquishes were only bad if you pulled too many or RNG gave you an obnoxious enemy comp to deal with. Speaking of taunting gods to their face, Abbadon in hard mode is not nearly as difficult as fighting a group of regular awakened with 3 cavaliers if you forgot to bring frozen soil.

Admittedly, it would be nice if there was an optional hard mode for story bosses, even if it was just "Allies don't res you, and enemy HP always resets to 100% if you die".

I agree with this. I didn't feel that any of the fights on Guild Wars 1 in story were particularly hard.

they weren't very hard, no, but hard doesn't mean challenging.Challenging means that you have to prepare, and adapt.GW1 wasn't exactly friendly to 1 build does all (maybe at the end, once you had all the skills and heroes maxed)If you failed a boss, you had to change your tactics. I remember being stuck on the frozen gate for weeks because I couldn't deal with the dolyak shamans.

of course, once you've cleared the game and maxed the heroes, normal mode becomes easy mode, and hard more becomes your challenging content