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I want more challenge in this game

Ayakaru.6583

By Ayakaru.6583
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

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@Ashen.2907 said:When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

forum duplicated my post from above

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Warscythes.9307

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@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

Both WoW and FF14 have normal (easy) difficulty settings for their raids and can be easily done once released.This is why they can put story inside the raids.

Yes the FFXIV's raid is the normal difficulty. However it is still a fully functional group raid with raid mechanics and a fail condition. It is not WoW LFR difficulty definitely but it is not faceroll. Unless you want to say that the story raid in FFXIV is easier than GW2's story mode? Because the biggest concern pointed out by the OP is that he wants a condition to fail the story which is something that is present in FFXIV's story raids. Yes echo exists when you fail which I support in adding; but most importantly I just want a fail condition.

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towarded casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good.

I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfection dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

Well, all I can say is that the bosses aren't too difficult for me, but I do find the fights boring and too lengthy in the sense that it distracts me from the actual story. So I just end up ignoring the story and just slugging my way through it to get it done.

I cannot however see myself as the standard and I do think that if, as suggested dying means starting over, it will cause an uproar in a part of the community. I do not have numbers but my feeling tells me that this part of the community is too big too ignore. GW2 as a more casual game, still attracted players who want challenge. That's actually what's weird, considering what GW2 is. It's about farming and gathering. LS introduced zones you can farm daily. And all to create ascended and legendary stuff and various cosmetics. The core was never about challenge.

Now the OP's request isn't a strange one, but it's one that might, in the context of GW2, backfire quite a bit.

In GW2 the main challenge is to not get bored before you reach your goals. Casual players tend to be more patient but also don't want to have walls put in front of them, even if you can walk around them.

And hey, I'm not trying to tell ArenaNet what to do. If they think this is a great idea then by all means. I just expect there to be a big uproar. I could be wrong, but the risk is ArenaNet's to run and not mine. So I'll let them decide. My issues with story bosses are different than this.

I think we just have to agree to disagree at this point. I fully expect an uproar if they add a fail condition in story but I also expect people to overcome it. Just like how we as a community beat the revamped Teq, triple wurm or even Chak rush when people literally thought it was impossible to do without fully organized guild. People will get better.

On a side note GW2 is a casual game because it is perfect for casual players as I pointed out before. However it attracts players who want challenge because again casual does not mean easy. I am a casual player, I play practically at most 2 hours every month yet I can still do Fotm or Raid. I just don't have the time to play anymore due to work or personal life compared to my younger days in college. I disagree that GW2 is about farming and gathering. Although I mainly want to point out is that the issue here is not challenge but rather there should be a baseline of difficulty for content. Challenge means different things for different types of players and as you said, I don't think the request to remove the current impossible to fail condition is a poor request. It just needs to be done correctly due to the environment where people cruise through an easy core world by pressing 1 and then suddenly thrown into HoT or PoF and get trashed because of the hand holding and lack of tutorials. GW2 at it's core with its hybrid action combat system is not an easy game compared to tab based MMO combat and people need to realize this.

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Evueimeimei.5918

Evueimeimei.5918

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As a general rule, I prefer story content over story difficulty, even when that ends up with a very easy to complete story mode. For me personally, barring a couple annoying lesser dragon fights, the story difficulty is in a pretty good place right now. That being said, I wouldn't argue with a few small changes to offer up a bit more challenge or sense of danger to people who want it. Maybe do something like this: NPC allies never rez you, bosses reset to first phase/full health and resummon adds if you are defeated, any traps or destructible objects are reset, and maybe the boss has a taunt line; but then make an option where after a certain number of defeats to a boss in a small time frame the game will ask you if you want to turn on "help" mode and if you do it will remove all of those conditions and run like it does now (except the NPCs won't forget to rez you if they're on the other side of the room doing nothing useful).

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Taygus.4571

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gehenna.3625" said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

Don't you think that they added the rezzing because players werent able to complete the instances? I means it's not like anyone wants to rez rush, they do so because they can't beat it otherwise.

I don't think so because there are encounters that do not allow it, like Mordremoth for example. If it was an intentional feature to allow players to beat the content, then it would work everywhere. I think it's mostly a leftover that applies to certain situations but not others.

Mord is older content, none of the previous stories have rezzing.So my question stands as they've added it after such content and continue to add it.

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IndigoSundown.5419

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gehenna.3625" said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

At the time res-rush was removed from dungeons, dungeons were still (along with fractals) the game's stand-in for raids. There is no doubt res rush cheapened dungeons. However, at what point (i.e., type of content) does a developer say, "This content has to be accessible to just about everyone." Certainly, that point should not be raid-equivalent content. So, should story be for everyone, or only for those who want it challenging?

Clearly, the OP does not want a self-applied solution (like a manual reset) if his character is defeated. In one sense, I don't blame him, because having to redo the lead-in to the fight on reset would be tedious. Would a reset option coupled with a save point just before the boss fight work? Or does story content have to be made less accessible to players lower on the playing capability index?

To me, the issue ought to be how ANet can make story content that is for a broad demographic which includes players at both ends of the spectrum. It's pretty obvious they don't want to open the Pandora's box of difficulty modes. That might be because that discussion is usually accompanied by, "If it's harder, the rewards had better be better." That often starts another fight.

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IndigoSundown.5419

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gehenna.3625" said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

At the time res-rush was removed from dungeons, dungeons were still (along with fractals) the game's stand-in for raids. There is no doubt res rush cheapened dungeons. However, at what point (i.e., type of content) does a developer say, "This content has to be accessible to just about everyone." Certainly, that point should not be raid-equivalent content. So, should story be for everyone, or only for those who want it challenging?

Clearly, the OP does not want a self-applied solution (like a manual reset) if his character is defeated. In one sense, I don't blame him, because having to redo the lead-in to the fight on reset would be tedious. Would a reset option coupled with a save point just before the boss fight work? Or does story content have to be made less accessible to players lower on the playing capability index?

To me, the issue ought to be how ANet can make story content that is for a broad demographic which includes players at both ends of the spectrum. It's pretty obvious they don't want to open the Pandora's box of difficulty modes. That might be because that discussion is usually accompanied by, "If it's harder, the rewards had better be better." That often starts another fight.

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Ashen.2907

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@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

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Ashen.2907

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@Dashingsteel.3410 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

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Dashingsteel.3410

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@Ashen.2907 said:

@Ashen.2907 said:When I want challenge from a game I want encounters that test the limits of my character's abilities, at his best, while my own abilities as a player are also stretched. Self handicapping, by not using my character to his full capacity (such as by not using his best gear), does not fulfill that desire for challenge.

Unfortunately this isn't a single player game and is filled with players of varying degrees of ability. Should Anet tune the story to test the limits of ops ability...…. That means that anyone that doesn't equal or surpass op's ability level will effectively be shut out of the story(if the idea of you die you start again is enacted). Anyone want to guess how many players will get shut out of the story? I am guessing that being shut out of the games story would be a dealbreaker for quite a few customers. Anet can't afford to lose any customers.

I get all of that. I have stated that I would love a difficulty mode setting, but that I understand that it could be prohibitively costly to implement. I was just attempting to give a perspective on the whole self handicapping commentary in this thread.

Yeah, I agree with you on the difficulty mode setting. It really would be the only feasible option.

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Lucius.2140

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

However, if there is enough interest and they balance it right, then it could be a good thing. Those are some big ifs though...Pre Hot content is very very very easy, two weeks ago i was playing without the HUD because it looks amazing and got in a fight with a particular mob that didnt die fast, when i checked i was right: just soloed a champ in a very casual way.

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Malediktus.9250

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I agree with OP. The personal/living story instances are a sad joke when it comes to making anything feel like having an impact. It is like Anet wants to watch us a slightly more interactive movie than actually playing a roleplay game.There is absolutely nothing I find enjoyable about the personal story or the living story.

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Malediktus.9250

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@"juhani.5361" said:You know, there was a game that tried this-- started with a "W" and ended with a "star." And, oddly enough, its company was owned by the same parent company that owns Anet. People have been citing it for at least a couple of years as an example for years of why you don't cater to the most skilled and hardcore members of gaming communities. As of yesterday, the analogy has been given very, very sharp teeth. Sharp getting shut down teeth.

Wildstar did not fail because of the difficulty. It died because the graphics were trash, the game was unoptimized and ran even worse than GW2 and a general lack of content (a handful of dungeons + 2 raids are hardly much after its long development time). Plus of course promises about content drops being broken quite early on. Also monthly subscription fee together with the flaws of the game did not work out.

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Malediktus.9250

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@Linken.6345 said:

@sorudo.9054 said:play raids with just your weapons, white ones.there, a challenge to overcome, you can even do this against story bosses.

can make a alt get a low drop like level 2-5 white weapons to make it even harder.

Self imposed challenges are useless. Why would someone do that if at best you have a super boring youtube video to show for it?

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Jumpin Lumpix.6108

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They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

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Obtena.7952

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@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

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Malediktus.9250

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

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Obtena.7952

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

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Malediktus.9250

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it.

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Obtena.7952

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That doesn't matter ... the poster thinks putting nice things behind hard content makes everyone happy. It doesn't and it's not the way this game was sold to people. Now the game has a solid following of the people that bought into the idea of the original game ... and the suggestion is to do a 180 on that? You guys aren't thinking straight here.

At this point, if the game is too easy for you, time to check out some other games. You might not like it, but the market this game serves is this side of casual play and it's a massive part of why this game is successful.

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YoukiNeko.6047

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@Malediktus.9250 said:

@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

That doesn't make everyone happy. That locks people out of rewards that they might want because of skill. That's exactly what this game ISN'T about.

Except since it is PVE everyone can go practice it and gain some skill easily. They should not cater to the people who multitask (eg. play GW2 and watch TV at the same). Since PVE is scripted and AI is super bad in this game, everyone can gain the required skill easily unless they are affected by some form of disability

What? I don't get what you are saying. What I know is that there is content in games (and this one is no different) that people can't complete and if the poster I responded to thinks that locking really nice stuff behind really hard content 'makes everyone happy', he's just not thinking straight.

Can't complete is most of the time just a bad excuse. I am not a very skilled person. I am bad in PvP/WvW. I do not have the reflexes of 14 year olds anymore. But if you fail (after practicing) at completing scripted encounters that are the same every time you go there, then the problem is you and not the game. There is really nothing even remotely hard in PvE this game, raids included. Everything can be learned rather easily by anyone legitimately trying and not just giving up at the first step where auto attacks won't cut it.

There are people with disabilities out there that want to enjoy the game and not feel excluded (like in the real world), so why would you deny them that?Or is it because you need to feel superior to them by getting shiny pixels in the game? (So can you do Ember bay jumping puzzle with one arm?)

Just because you can do it doesn't mean that everyone can even if they tried hard.Personal story is supposed to be accessible for everyone. So far there are some annoying bosses but the ability to res-rush actually helps people deal with them. (even with res-rush some people are having problems)

Raids and high level fractals are where this game challenging content is.

P.S. Wildstar is running way better than GW2 on my pc and the graphics are nicer (i prefer cartoon style). But I remember people complaining about how punishing the game was (failing one encounter in raids almost removed your reward, making people instantly restarting).

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@Warscythes.9307 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towards casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good. People will get better if there are enough incentives.

I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfect dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

Both WoW and FF14 have normal (easy) difficulty settings for their raids and can be easily done once released.This is why they can put story inside the raids.

Yes the FFXIV's raid is the normal difficulty. However it is still a fully functional group raid with raid mechanics and a fail condition. It is not WoW LFR difficulty definitely but it is not faceroll. Unless you want to say that the story raid in FFXIV is easier than GW2's story mode? Because the biggest concern pointed out by the OP is that he wants a condition to fail the story which is something that is present in FFXIV's story raids. Yes echo exists when you fail which I support in adding; but most importantly I just want a fail condition.

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

@Gehenna.3625 said:So are you (reasonably) happy with the fights now as they are or do you feel like the OP that the boss fights are way too easy to the point he doesn't take them seriously anymore?

The OP isn't saying that the bosses are too easy. It's about the idea that every boss can be beaten without any trouble, provided they spend enough time corpse running. And I agree with the OP in that regard because we get complicated encounters with fine mechanics that are overshadowed by the corpse run tactic. Hit-Die-Revive-Run-Hit-Die-Revive-Run and so on. Arenanet "fixed" this in dungeons by not allowing players to use waypoints when their team is in combat because even the developers figured it was a very very cheap tactic. Yet they allow it in story instances. That's what the OP said, not that the encounters have too easy encounters or lack mechanics.

edit: basically, death should reset the fight, unless it has many long phases, then it could reset to the latest phase instead. This has nothing to do with how challenging the fight mechanics are, which I can repeat again, I think are mostly fine.

You are right. The OP isn't saying that. I just reread it and you are quite correct.

Of course, if they were to do what he suggests, then we will get the situation where the fights are impossible to finish for many people and that can only be detrimental to the game's longevity.

I think you are underestimating how players can overcome challenges if given enough incentives. FFXIV for example has forced 8 men raid fights that you have to beat in order to actually continue the main story. Plenty of people have beat it and there's been no major complaints about it.

I believe the biggest reason for players fail instances is simply that their build suck. In other MMOs such as FFXIV, WoW etc etc. While you can change your talent, the difference it will make is fairly minimal in terms of easier content. However in GW2 the difference can be absolutely massive. As you can see from the previous poster with multiple guardians. The kill difference between a dps build and a healer build is between 5 and 45 minutes. This means a player with incorrect gear and trait options can take up to a hour to do a fight whereas people who do their build correctly will take 5 minutes.

I think if death rez is removed then the replacement should simply be a stat buff upon death. If you die then you gain a stacking buff that provides 10% increase to everything with a somewhat reasonable limit of say 40-60%. This makes it so that there is a baseline for the mission to be designed around whereas now Anet has to assume the players are so bad that they have to make it to be impossible to fail.

You see, we are talking about story bosses and not raids. Casual people tend to stay away from raids so that's not a useful comparison.

The fact that the build makes an enormous difference in GW2 is part of the problem in my view. The difference is too big and that makes it harder also to create a good baseline experience for the story. However, length of the fight is not the issue here. It's an issue but for a different thread. The OP doesn't like as I was reminded that dying has no effect as you can run back in and continue where you left off. However, changing that will make it very hard for a lot of players and casual players will not do what you think because they are not raiders but just want to have fun and aren't looking for big challenges.

That's where my point lies. I do not find the fights too hard myself but I have seen many people struggle with things in various MMOs and when they leave so does a big part of the revenue of a game. ArenaNet needs to know who their customers are and they know that they cannot make the story bosses more punishing. That sucks for people who do like a challenge, but I think they'll just have to resign themselves to the point that story is not the place for the big challenges.. It's a bad decision economically for ArenaNet to push those people out.

Casual players are not like raiders. Most of them won't buckle up and meet the challenge, I think many of them would say f this crap and move on and they will move on with their money. It's not what they're looking for. Either because it's too complicated for them or they're not interested in that. Now I am not saying that the way ArenaNet handles it is necessarily the best way. I would like some changes too but there has to be a solution for casual players as well and just telling them to get better of force them is like EA saying "if you don't like it, don't buy it". I think you know how well that worked for them with BF V.

I gave the raid example because in FFXIV you HAVE to raid in order to progress the story. Yet this is not seen as a major issue by the playerbase which is by all means fairly casual in nature. I hope this provides the example that players will overcome challenges if there are enough incentives. Not the claim that many people will fail and then just quit forever.

Well having to raid to progress the story will also keep certain players out that don't care for having to be forced to complete the main story. As GW2 is marketed as a more casual game and a personal story, the comparison falls flat for me.

Personally because I find the story lines drag too much and the boss fights boring, I only do them on my main and avoid them. And it's not even because it's too hard but too annoying. I can understand other people having similar feelings about fights they find too hard.

When I say many that doesn't mean most by the way. That distinction is very important.

Sure having to raid will keep certain players out but enough people passed in FFXIV to progress the story so that it was never considered an issue. I am sure that there are people who still fail the current GW2 story because they just don't have the reflex to glide, hit and move at the same time or even do certain puzzles. Do we want to lower the difficulty even more? Because at a certain point you just have to stop. Nobody here in this thread want a raid boss in the story. However I think we can agree that there should be a baseline for how difficult should be and that the current status of corpse rush can be improved upon.

Also I don't think GW2 ever advertised it to be easy. It is casual and being casual doesn't mean it is easy. GW2 is known to be easy to pick up due to no sub fee, it is easy to join group on open world due to dynamic events, and it is easy to come back because there is no gear trendmill. However I have never seen ads where it says this game is so easy to play. In fact I would argue GW2 is harder in terms of game mechanics compared to other mainstream MMOs. GW2 is a hybrid action tab MMO should by definition requires better reflex than tab MMOs. It offers a lot more customization options in terms of stats, traits and skills that again by definition makes it more difficult compare to other MMOs because you can make a very very bad build. FFXIV also marketed towarded casual players with a personal story, in fact it is known for its elaborate personal story and robust casual gameplay thanks to its crafting system. Yet again having required raid is not an issue in that game. Players adapted and overcame the challenges and all is good.

I find the boss fights boring because I literally cannot fail. That is it. I don't expect raid boss tier mechanics nor perfection dps rotations to beat the boss. But I wish that there exist a way for you to fail. That is really it.

Well, all I can say is that the bosses aren't too difficult for me, but I do find the fights boring and too lengthy in the sense that it distracts me from the actual story. So I just end up ignoring the story and just slugging my way through it to get it done.

I cannot however see myself as the standard and I do think that if, as suggested dying means starting over, it will cause an uproar in a part of the community. I do not have numbers but my feeling tells me that this part of the community is too big too ignore. GW2 as a more casual game, still attracted players who want challenge. That's actually what's weird, considering what GW2 is. It's about farming and gathering. LS introduced zones you can farm daily. And all to create ascended and legendary stuff and various cosmetics. The core was never about challenge.

Now the OP's request isn't a strange one, but it's one that might, in the context of GW2, backfire quite a bit.

In GW2 the main challenge is to not get bored before you reach your goals. Casual players tend to be more patient but also don't want to have walls put in front of them, even if you can walk around them.

And hey, I'm not trying to tell ArenaNet what to do. If they think this is a great idea then by all means. I just expect there to be a big uproar. I could be wrong, but the risk is ArenaNet's to run and not mine. So I'll let them decide. My issues with story bosses are different than this.

I think we just have to agree to disagree at this point. I fully expect an uproar if they add a fail condition in story but I also expect people to overcome it. Just like how we as a community beat the revamped Teq, triple wurm or even Chak rush when people literally thought it was impossible to do without fully organized guild. People will get better.

On a side note GW2 is a casual game because it is perfect for casual players as I pointed out before. However it attracts players who want challenge because again casual does not mean easy. I am a casual player, I play practically at most 2 hours every month yet I can still do Fotm or Raid. I just don't have the time to play anymore due to work or personal life compared to my younger days in college. I disagree that GW2 is about farming and gathering. Although I mainly want to point out is that the issue here is not challenge but rather there should be a baseline of difficulty for content. Challenge means different things for different types of players and as you said, I don't think the request to remove the current impossible to fail condition is a poor request. It just needs to be done correctly due to the environment where people cruise through an easy core world by pressing 1 and then suddenly thrown into HoT or PoF and get trashed because of the hand holding and lack of tutorials. GW2 at it's core with its hybrid action combat system is not an easy game compared to tab based MMO combat and people need to realize this.

FF14 raids are harder than GW2 personal story unless someone is carrying you - then it's easier.Personal story should be impossible for the players. (and yes there are players having real troubles with the story).If you want more challenge ask for new raid wing or level 200 fractals.

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Perhaps harder/more interesting mechanics coupled with the ability to res rush if you cannot handle the mechanics is the compromise that allowed ANet to make those mechanics for the players who wanted more of a challenge, while allowing the players who are going to struggle with those fights an option to finish the content. It's likely a much easier-to-implement solution than creating different modes.

Check this out:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19421/suggestion-stop-making-story-bosses-hard-ls4-spoilers/p1allowing the players to clear the content through rez rushing isn't really a good option, even for those players that can't handle the difficulty.

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Gehenna.3625

Gehenna.3625

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@"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:They should just make some aspect of the game very difficult that relies solely on solo player skills, and lock some really good exclusive rewards behind it. That way, everyone is happy. If its too hard for some people, then i just say quote what everyone on the forums says to people who want any aspect of the game changed at all - "perhaps this game/game mode isn't for you."

You think the classes are balanced enough to create meaningful content that way that all classes can complete? GW1 had something fun in Eye of the North where you had this Norn championship that you had to beat an x amount of opponents solo and couldn't change builds in between. I remember laughing so hard because the 55 monks thought they could take this home until they found out there was some life steal in there, which was pretty much the one thing that build couldn't hack.

But when it comes to solo content, one of the elements is that every single class should be able to beat it. And that does limit what you can do with it. Come to think of it SWTOR has something like that. But SWTOR has one advantage that GW2 doesn't...a companion. So if you're a healer then you take a DPS companion. Not as good as a player but definitely made it less slow to beat solo content.

I'm definitely for having harder content in the game, but I do have to wonder if the classes are all up to the task. And what that means is that they can't make it too hard simply because not all the classes are equal or have the same abilities.

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