deadeye needs another rework

[foste.3098]

because of its kit it is inherently broken one way or the other, it will ether be too powerful or to weak. Thief should have never gotten a sniper specialization to begin with as the play style it promotes is simply not fun to play against; long stealth, high burst, long range, and teleportation.This situation reminds me of the old berzerker warrior, except instead of rotation short cd hard cc, invulnerability and high damage you rotate stealth, high ranged damage, and shadowsteps.

[Tails.9372]

I'd rather see a rework of dual pistol and critical strikes.

[kash.9213]

Revert DE to original build and it would mostly be fine. It's not long stealth your having trouble with, it's easy stealth. The rest of that stuff is just GW2, don't pretend thief has all this stuff other classes don't, if you can't hang with the games combat take a break.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Thief has always been either too powerful or too weak. I doubt that would change anytime soon.

[Vieteriukko.6075]

Op says rework but I only read nerfs. I’d rather see Soulbeast brought down.

[Noha.3749]

Id like to compare it to say, Zerker Elementalist wants to enjoy dealing tremedous damage in a blobfight.Elementalist readies himself for the journey towards the blob and a ferocious 1shotting thief kills the poor lad before he gets there.Now the poor lad cant nuke down half a blobtrain and gets pissed, turns to this forum in frustration.

[Atticus.7194]

@foste.3098 said:because of its kit it is inherently broken one way or the other, it will ether be too powerful or to weak. Thief should have never gotten a sniper specialization to begin with as the play style it promotes is simply not fun to play against; long stealth, high burst, long range, and teleportation.This situation reminds me of the old berzerker warrior, except instead of rotation short cd hard cc, invulnerability and high damage you rotate stealth, high ranged damage, and shadowsteps.

I have to agree. When you've designed a spec that doesn't used 90% of it's kit in favor of 3 skills revolving around 1 single attack you've done a bad job designing something. In addition the spec seems tailor made to DISCOURAGE counterplay for other players. Deadeyes can easily clear revealed with elite, have built in spammable teleports, and longer than usual stealth and more accessible than usual stealth and have built in huge damage as a reward for relatively low skill cap. Everything is built around spamming deaths judgement, literally you only ever get hit by one single attack, that's it, which ngl is understandable when that skill has an ez prerequisite and does 10-30k.

All in all, they lowered the skill cap and increased the damage way too much without adjusting the rest of the classes kit. Big damage should be a reward for big skill, not dodging and clicking 5

[LONGA.1652]

Dead eye just need slow down malice generation in PVP especially in WVW since there's food involed .1200 range Stealth opener that have enough DPS to kill anyone and then get back to stealth is not a really fun to fight against.

Or just rework Stealth to unable to target but player see Stealthed enemy shadow when they use actiosn thats is not moving or dodge

In PVE thou keep current DPS that because Rifle suck in open world.

[derd.6413]

i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

[starlinvf.1358]

@"derd.6413" said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

Its chicken and egg problem, though. Stealth IS the Theif's Defense strategy without DareDevil's dodge modifications. Deadeye broke 2 cardinal rules of shooter design..... 1. Never give the Sniper access to Invisibility. 2. Never give the Sniper the ability to maintain a position indefinitely.

At its Core, Invisibility as a defense exemplifies one of the biggest misunderstandings of the Risk/Reward dynamic by both Devs and players alike. Players typically have the ability to mitigate any drawbacks; and in an attempt to balance around that, Devs typically make it the sole defense available to that class/build. Its effectiveness increases substantially with uncertainty..... and core thieves also have access skills that give them uncertainty (Teleports). If we include some game specific issues, we have to take into consideration how Range works in this game, as well as the prevalence of gap closing skills for melee.

When most of this is taken into account, Thief is effectively THE WORST class to add this sniper theme to, as it further narrows the already narrow playstyle of Core thief to its logical extremes. Greater reliance on stealth, and greater damage to offset that reliance. But the problem is any class that would thematically fit the "Sniper" theme would also be inherently broken with the additional range advantage. So ironically, Thief is also the BEST class platform (mechanically) to create this type of single target Glass Cannon that has poor sustain in melee range.

I gotta give the Devs credit on this one. Its a design synergy that can only effectively work in the state its in now, simultaneously displaying all the best and worst outcomes that each elements presents. This is GW2's Genji

[Zawn.9647]

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. fuck logic :)

[starlinvf.1358]

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Technically its entirely possible to integrate stealth and have a healthy game dynamic. The problem is Stealth tends to be extremely binary in its effectiveness. And trying to balance that leads to extremely levels of over-dependence on that singular mechanic, to compensate for the fact that pairing it with any other strong mechanic enables the pair to dominate the game play.

This wouldn't be a controversy if there were ways to reliably soft counter Stealth other then second guessing, and gambling high value AOE skills in the hopes it deals some kind of damage. Players don't like high levels of uncertainty, and hate the fact it whole sale interrupts the combat loop while putting them at a total disadvantage. With Stealth only having Hard counters in the game play dynamics, and Thieves being extremely reliant on stealth (and stealth attacks) as their strongest strategy, thief builds are forced into gambits that demand they control the engagement to be effective. If you Reveal a thief, they are completely vulnerable to a multitude of control effects, and forced to immediately disengage to avoid dying. Which is why until Deadeye gave them a proper range advantage, nearly every thief carried Shortbow for mobility.

There has to be more gradients in how stealth works to get the wiggle room required for soft counters and counter tactics. But that is extremely difficult when the game uses tab targeting, and players can't make reasonable guesses at to where the target is at any given moment. And with Thief literally built around Stealth to access its strongest attacks, and positioning required to make it effective, adding or removing stealth like a resource won't have the desired effect on balance.

[Zawn.9647]

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Technically its entirely possible to integrate stealth and have a healthy game dynamic. The problem is Stealth tends to be extremely binary in its effectiveness. And trying to balance that leads to extremely levels of over-dependence on that singular mechanic, to compensate for the fact that pairing it with any other strong mechanic enables the pair to dominate the game play.

This wouldn't be a controversy if there were ways to reliably soft counter Stealth other then second guessing, and gambling high value AOE skills in the hopes it deals some kind of damage. Players don't like high levels of uncertainty, and hate the fact it whole sale interrupts the combat loop while putting them at a total disadvantage. With Stealth only having Hard counters in the game play dynamics, and Thieves being extremely reliant on stealth (and stealth attacks) as their strongest strategy, thief builds are forced into gambits that demand they control the engagement to be effective. If you Reveal a thief, they are completely vulnerable to a multitude of control effects, and forced to immediately disengage to avoid dying. Which is why until Deadeye gave them a proper range advantage, nearly every thief carried Shortbow for mobility.

There has to be more gradients in how stealth works to get the wiggle room required for soft counters and counter tactics. But that is extremely difficult when the game uses tab targeting, and players can't make reasonable guesses at to where the target is at any given moment. And with Thief literally built around Stealth to access its strongest attacks, and positioning required to make it effective, adding or removing stealth like a resource won't have the desired effect on balance.

i know its possible to have a healthy stealth... not in this current form tho

wow for example - unlimited duration as long as you're out of combat, slow moving, reveal on any damage to you or by yougw2 - 3-6s stealth (without stacking), stealth while a fireball is hitting your face, stealth on dodge, teleport half a screen away, HP regens ultra fast once you're 10 miles away, come back and try again

that doesnt sound cool nor healthy imo :/

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Zawn.9647 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Technically its entirely possible to integrate stealth and have a healthy game dynamic. The problem is Stealth tends to be extremely binary in its effectiveness. And trying to balance that leads to extremely levels of over-dependence on that singular mechanic, to compensate for the fact that pairing it with any other strong mechanic enables the pair to dominate the game play.

This wouldn't be a controversy if there were ways to reliably soft counter Stealth other then second guessing, and gambling high value AOE skills in the hopes it deals some kind of damage. Players don't like high levels of uncertainty, and hate the fact it whole sale interrupts the combat loop while putting them at a total disadvantage. With Stealth only having Hard counters in the game play dynamics, and Thieves being extremely reliant on stealth (and stealth attacks) as their strongest strategy, thief builds are forced into gambits that demand they control the engagement to be effective. If you Reveal a thief, they are completely vulnerable to a multitude of control effects, and forced to immediately disengage to avoid dying. Which is why until Deadeye gave them a proper range advantage, nearly every thief carried Shortbow for mobility.

There has to be more gradients in how stealth works to get the wiggle room required for soft counters and counter tactics. But that is extremely difficult when the game uses tab targeting, and players can't make reasonable guesses at to where the target is at any given moment. And with Thief literally built around Stealth to access its strongest attacks, and positioning required to make it effective, adding or removing stealth like a resource won't have the desired effect on balance.

i know its possible to have a healthy stealth... not in this current form tho

wow for example - unlimited duration as long as you're out of combat, slow moving, reveal on any damage to you or by yougw2 - 3-6s stealth (without stacking), stealth while a fireball is hitting your face, stealth on dodge, teleport half a screen away, HP regens ultra fast once you're 10 miles away, come back and try again

that doesnt sound cool nor healthy imo :/

Implementing WoW stealth would just make it easier to hide in keeps (which seems to be the thing that annoys most people), since I wouldn't even have to bother stacking stealth to hide there. Then when I engage it's usually on my terms (so single target) and high enough spike to be a one shot, so I lose basically nothing if stealth is changed to resemble WoW in this scenario. The problem is deeper and way more complicated than it looks.

[Zawn.9647]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Technically its entirely possible to integrate stealth and have a healthy game dynamic. The problem is Stealth tends to be extremely binary in its effectiveness. And trying to balance that leads to extremely levels of over-dependence on that singular mechanic, to compensate for the fact that pairing it with any other strong mechanic enables the pair to dominate the game play.

This wouldn't be a controversy if there were ways to reliably soft counter Stealth other then second guessing, and gambling high value AOE skills in the hopes it deals some kind of damage. Players don't like high levels of uncertainty, and hate the fact it whole sale interrupts the combat loop while putting them at a total disadvantage. With Stealth only having Hard counters in the game play dynamics, and Thieves being extremely reliant on stealth (and stealth attacks) as their strongest strategy, thief builds are forced into gambits that demand they control the engagement to be effective. If you Reveal a thief, they are completely vulnerable to a multitude of control effects, and forced to immediately disengage to avoid dying. Which is why until Deadeye gave them a proper range advantage, nearly every thief carried Shortbow for mobility.

There has to be more gradients in how stealth works to get the wiggle room required for soft counters and counter tactics. But that is extremely difficult when the game uses tab targeting, and players can't make reasonable guesses at to where the target is at any given moment. And with Thief literally built around Stealth to access its strongest attacks, and positioning required to make it effective, adding or removing stealth like a resource won't have the desired effect on balance.

i know its possible to have a healthy stealth... not in this current form tho

wow for example - unlimited duration as long as you're out of combat, slow moving, reveal on any damage to you or by yougw2 - 3-6s stealth (without stacking), stealth while a fireball is hitting your face, stealth on dodge, teleport half a screen away, HP regens ultra fast once you're 10 miles away, come back and try again

that doesnt sound cool nor healthy imo :/

Implementing WoW stealth would just make it easier to hide in keeps (which seems to be the thing that annoys most people), since I wouldn't even have to bother stacking stealth to hide there. Then when I engage it's usually on my terms (so single target) and high enough spike to be a one shot, so I lose basically nothing if stealth is changed to resemble WoW in this scenario. The problem is deeper and way more complicated than it looks.

I agree. im not saying to implement wow stealth hahai was just comparing those 2 stealths

[Ashgar.3024]

People just forget so easily how much this game's balance relies on a rock-paper-scissor scenario. Right now Soulbeasts and Deadeyes thrive (in SoloQ), because most games even in high gold/low plat are uncoordinated zergfests and nobody wants to play support in that while a decent Scrapper or properly specced Firebrands can shut down both of these classes fairly easily.

Rev is also a great counter to Deadeye but also happens to be a very underplayed class.

I probably forget others but that's the thing, when the meta shift, people need to start experimenting with new things, shuffle their build around instead of sticking to whatever they copy-pasted from Metabattle. If you see 2 thieves, and a Ranger on the other side, chances you can trade one of your condi cleanse for some projectile protection for example.

I mean i just had a game today vs two Deadeye, in Plat 1. Swapped to my Scrapper and literally prevented them from playing the game whenever they showed up in mid.

Deadeye's original design was a mess, current want works. Could it use some tweaks to its damage numbers? Probably But mechanically it doesn't really need much changes, its how it should be.

[dDuff.3860]

@Griever.8150 said:People just forget so easily how much this game's balance relies on a rock-paper-scissor scenario. Right now Soulbeasts and Deadeyes thrive (in SoloQ), because most games even in high gold/low plat are uncoordinated zergfests and nobody wants to play support in that while a decent Scrapper or properly specced Firebrands can shut down both of these classes fairly easily.

In no way support firebrand can counter deadeye. Because he is the first target in teamfight vs team with deadeye.

[Tiah.3091]

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Not defending the deadeye OPness, but could you, please, name at least 1 or 2 MMORPG games, where stealth has a drawback? I specifically mentioned MMORPG, because that what GW2 fucking is. I have no idea why some people just keep comparing it to fucking LoL and DotA. Which is MOBA type games and have absolutely different balancing paradigms.

WoW doesn't punish players in any way for stealth. It used to (speed debuff), but not anymore. SWtOR stealth has similar mechanics as WoW. Wildstar (if someone remembers this game) - similar to WoW. TESO - similar to WoW, but with a speed debuff, iirc. I even played an MMO (won't call the name of this garbage), where stealth didn't break on damage dealt - teef could hit you with a backstab, but you still didn't have a clue where this fuck came from.

Out of all MMO games, that I played, GW2 stealth, probably is the least broken one (still broken on some builds, like DE, though). Because in most cases at least it doesn't last too long.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Just make stealth for Deadeye work like Shroud does for Scourge..in that while technically the same mechanic, its also different. Instead of hiding the Deadeye it could instead pulse PBAoE Fear while still triggering all the stealth traits, or something like that.

It should only be a defensive tool to maintain ranged superiority, not to do invisible instagibs.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Zawn.9647 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Zawn.9647 said:

@derd.6413 said:i think the main issue with DE is stealth and not DE itself.stealth should be reworked

i struggle to understand how a game dev can think that this stealth is good and healthy for the game... every game has drawbacks when you stealth... gw2 rewards stealth, the complete opposite of everyone else. kitten logic :)

Technically its entirely possible to integrate stealth and have a healthy game dynamic. The problem is Stealth tends to be extremely binary in its effectiveness. And trying to balance that leads to extremely levels of over-dependence on that singular mechanic, to compensate for the fact that pairing it with any other strong mechanic enables the pair to dominate the game play.

This wouldn't be a controversy if there were ways to reliably soft counter Stealth other then second guessing, and gambling high value AOE skills in the hopes it deals some kind of damage. Players don't like high levels of uncertainty, and hate the fact it whole sale interrupts the combat loop while putting them at a total disadvantage. With Stealth only having Hard counters in the game play dynamics, and Thieves being extremely reliant on stealth (and stealth attacks) as their strongest strategy, thief builds are forced into gambits that demand they control the engagement to be effective. If you Reveal a thief, they are completely vulnerable to a multitude of control effects, and forced to immediately disengage to avoid dying. Which is why until Deadeye gave them a proper range advantage, nearly every thief carried Shortbow for mobility.

There has to be more gradients in how stealth works to get the wiggle room required for soft counters and counter tactics. But that is extremely difficult when the game uses tab targeting, and players can't make reasonable guesses at to where the target is at any given moment. And with Thief literally built around Stealth to access its strongest attacks, and positioning required to make it effective, adding or removing stealth like a resource won't have the desired effect on balance.

i know its possible to have a healthy stealth... not in this current form tho

wow for example - unlimited duration as long as you're out of combat, slow moving, reveal on any damage to you or by yougw2 - 3-6s stealth (without stacking), stealth while a fireball is hitting your face, stealth on dodge, teleport half a screen away, HP regens ultra fast once you're 10 miles away, come back and try again

that doesnt sound cool nor healthy imo :/

Everyone can get access to stealth on this game wether is blasting of an allied smoke field or simply got stealthed of an allie... even npcs can be stealthed.

[HardcoreNewbee.5498]

When I beat deadeyes, they are usually played by bad players who have really really bad management of stealth and position. They are not unstoppable in 1v1 dual, but they are surely annoying. I don't play thief, but I do know there is a trait that allows them to get in stealth while performing a dodge roll. Though it is predictable and short, knowing that thief has many other stealth skills from either daggers or utilities, including a teleportation. Decent players can really confuse u about their whereabouts. Deadeye can get in stealth at any range with low risks. I know that stealth is the only measure they have to protect themselves. But the ridiculous amount of stealth methods feels out of control sometimes. It is a high damage, medium to low-risk specialization. The only time u can see them is when they start shooting you. Thief is supposed to be a high-risk, high-reward class. The stealth mechanic should be reworked rather than adding or decreasing stealth time. Also, any revel skills should have a larger radius, like the gaze of darkness from the Herald, which only has a radius of 360.