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Siege, Golems and Capture-Point Contribution


cgMatt.5162
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Can we get this changed so that being in a Golem or other siege Prevents Capture-Point Contribution?

It is really unfun to have to fight outnumbered against multiple opponents inside of a camp and under guards (who I keep killing until my cooldowns are low). They have enough time to run back from spawn to get into another of the 5 golems built or until help arrives. It is a tactic people use to upgrade objectives where they should not be able to hold normally.

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The golem is not cheap--it's 100 supply and requires someone to be near the camp at all times since they can flip with a few seconds of showing swords. If someone invests that much, they should be able to hold out longer than normal. The golem is pretty much useless in combat and will die in far less time than it takes the camp to regenerate 100 supply.

This is especially relevant because combat is borked and otherwise holding a camp against any roaming class for more than the time it takes them to stomp you requires more gear than the average WvW player has access to.

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@Sviel.7493 said:The golem is not cheap--it's 100 supply and requires someone to be near the camp at all times since they can flip with a few seconds of showing swords. If someone invests that much, they should be able to hold out longer than normal. The golem is pretty much useless in combat and will die in far less time than it takes the camp to regenerate 100 supply.

This is especially relevant because combat is borked and otherwise holding a camp against any roaming class for more than the time it takes them to stomp you requires more gear than the average WvW player has access to.

Anyone can flip a camp and have instant 100 supply so I would say that is fairly cheap. If they keep losing the fight when they outnumber you, then they should not be able to hold out longer than normal. Can't stress how cancerous it feels to fight against, especially when they siege it up with ballistas and arrow carts. Kill them and the NPCs and still unable to cap because one of them starts playing musical chairs with golems.

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Its a fair tactic to buy 1 min until reinforcements arrive. I can see how some roamers that are used to killing everything with little effort would whine though. If you cant defeat the camp defenses you need more people or stay persistent and whittle down defenses. A single player that doesnt give up can be a pain in the kitten.

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@Solaris.2489 said:Its a fair tactic to buy 1 min until reinforcements arrive. I can see how some roamers that are used to killing everything with little effort would whine though. If you cant defeat the camp defenses you need more people or stay persistent and whittle down defenses. A single player that doesnt give up can be a pain in the kitten.

I dont really agree.

Fair tactics is keeping an eye on a camp, keeping scouts spread out and warning in chat before enemies even attack so that friendlies are incoming while others contest and fight the enemies.

Fair tactics is definetly not getting in a golem knowing that you cant do kitten against the enemies but they cant cap the camp as long as you stand there doing nothing, and then when the golem dies you got 2-3 more standing ready. And it gets even worse when this is specifically targetted against roamers and very small groups. Zergs dont care, they just crush the golem in seconds.

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@cgMatt.5162 said:Anyone can flip a camp and have instant 100 supply so I would say that is fairly cheap. If they keep losing the fight when they outnumber you, then they should not be able to hold out longer than normal. Can't stress how cancerous it feels to fight against, especially when they siege it up with ballistas and arrow carts. Kill them and the NPCs and still unable to cap because one of them starts playing musical chairs with golems.

Using that 100 supply for the golem means the camp can't be used to resupply for a good while. If there's any sort of sustained pressure going on, that's not an easy sacrifice.

But it seems that you want camps to flip easily if the players on opposing sides have some difference in direct combat strength, no matter what other factors are in play. I don't. I prefer a game with more depth.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:And it gets even worse when this is specifically targetted against roamers and very small groups. Zergs dont care, they just crush the golem in seconds.

I don't get it. Why is it not ok for a single guy against a "small group" to use a golem to stall the circle, but you don't mind if he's against a zerg because they can kill the golem quicker? Isn't the single guy outnumbered in both instances? I've seen golems used in towers and keeps as well to do the same thing - to stall for reinforcements to arrive. Are camps supposed to be any different?

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@Chaba.5410 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:And it gets even worse when this is
specifically
targetted against roamers and very small groups. Zergs dont care, they just crush the golem in seconds.

I don't get it. Why is it not ok for a single guy against a "small group" to use a golem to stall the circle, but you don't mind if he's against a zerg because they can kill the golem quicker? Isn't the single guy outnumbered in both instances? I've seen golems used in towers and keeps as well to do the same thing - to stall for reinforcements to arrive. Are camps supposed to be any different?

It's no different, and it's a valid strategy. But, people have reached the point in game where everything is ONLY about loot/ranks, and they think everything should be super easy. Even the large guilds, everything boils down to "I want to flip it with 0 effort". So, we get endless threads about how everything is too hard to take. I'd be happy if they would ignore threads like these and do more balance passes over the classes.

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The Op made me laugh. Any tactic is a fair tactic. You could always take some time and kill the unoccupied golems first...or just accept that the guy doing this is obviously wanting to try and hold the camp and will use all means at their disposal to do so.

Next you'll be crying when he jumps on a ballista and shoots at you.

This is a complete non-issue. A quick message in team and get 3-4 people to come down and clear it out- or build an instant bally away from the camp and shoot him down .

I agree with Ubi, wvw seems filled these days with people bored with pve but expecting wvw to be just as brainless then complain when it isn't. Or guilds who moan about anyone defending a structure rather than jumping down 3v15...

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Solaris.2489 said:Its a fair tactic to buy 1 min until reinforcements arrive. I can see how some roamers that are used to killing everything with little effort would whine though. If you cant defeat the camp defenses you need more people or stay persistent and whittle down defenses. A single player that doesnt give up can be a pain in the kitten.

I dont really agree.

Fair tactics is keeping an eye on a camp, keeping scouts spread out and warning in chat before enemies even attack so that friendlies are incoming while others contest and fight the enemies.

Fair tactics is definetly not getting in a golem knowing that you cant do kitten against the enemies but they cant cap the camp as long as you stand there doing nothing, and then when the golem dies you got 2-3 more standing ready. And it gets even worse when this is
specifically
targetted against roamers and very small groups. Zergs dont care, they just crush the golem in seconds.

If we go by that logic, then its completely unfair to the defenders that have to dedicate 3-5 people per cap point, plus more scouts inbetween, to counter a group of 5 roamers that could strike any target at their leisure. Not to mention reinforcements have to be in proximity of each camp, since a roaming group can crush the NPCs and cap in less then a minute; so simply scouting them isn't enough.

This is something extends deep into WvW's biggest problem with its map cap........ Defenders are always at a strategic disadvantage when it comes to man power, while the Attackers can always pool their resources knowing their biggest structures are too difficult to take by a small group. Thats huge disparity in optimal group size for attack and defense for a given objective. Plus attackers always have the advantage of picking their targets, and can collectively dedicate more resources to it; while the defenders have to cannibalize their defenses to respond to any 15+ group capable of attacking a structure.

Thats why most servers zerg, and only leave a few scouts scattered near key areas. Because its too hard to respond to an enemy that has the element of surprise, and gets to pick the engagements.

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@starlinvf.1358 said:Thats why most servers zerg, and only leave a few scouts scattered near key areas. Because its too hard to respond to an enemy that has the element of surprise, and gets to pick the engagements.

Responding to threats is part of the game - maybe you wont save that sentry, or that camp, or that tower or even that keep. But if you see a zerg starting at the sentry... Yeah. That the entire point and it has nothing to do with siege golems being used to contest camps just because its easier than map awareness and heaven forbid, trying to fight.

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@Dawdler.8521 What do you think about reworking the 'white swords' system into something easier to notice. Like an automatic ping with different colors for different types of objectives. Also, on camps it would not have a 30s delay. While we're at it, we should get rid of the pointless NPC factions that contest NWC on ABL.

I'm talking one ping at initial contest, then larger white swords or just a constant ping on the larger map.

I'd love to respond to the threat of a camp flipping, but it is currently impossible unless I plan to sit in that camp for my entire play time...something that is actively discouraged by all of the reward systems. It might even be feasible to call for back-up if the enemy is using a dueling class or some poorly tuned set-up that is difficult to handle alone.

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