Holosmith and Mirage need urgent look at them

[Math.5123]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@SoulSin.5682 said:It's hilarious that in Power metas, classes like Engie start appearing in complain topics.They just forget how Engies couldn't even step inside the game back when condi was king.

Mesmer has indeed, tons of active defenses and a lot of kitting potential with Sword Mirage Burst. But Mesmer sustain is somewhat bad, as they have some of the worse healing skills of the game. (HP recovery wise, ofc).

or anyone else in melee range/action with power, but let's not tell fables now cause holo has been in the meta for almost a year now

i mean how far back we gotta go to see when engii wasnt played?

plenti of other classes got displaced with the new metas that come out.

somehow, someway we always see necro, guard, and mes though

Guard, specifically DH was trash for the most part of HoT. At least in high level.

[Math.5123]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Vicariuz.1605" said:

Holo is definitely extremely strong as a duelist right now. Overpowered? Probably not. But having multiple classes in S+ tier (mirage overlords have a challenger now) is not good for the health of the game when it comes in the form of long duration hard CC's and full health resets that can occur in stealth). To reiterate, my issue comes with passive S before any of the damage or CC. The condition damage during invuln change was an extremely "useful" buff for engineer, but especially holo as well.

I like how engineer, by receiving some nerfs, has somehow become S+ tier now. Lul. SD holo has faced nerf after nerf, but it's S+ tier now. Mmk.

Also, for the love of god, everybody still complains about auto elixir S. It really is not a full reset unless you're completely negligent in your teamfights or duels. The only good thing it does for engineers is stall death momentarily.

You seem to forget about elixir buff.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Vicariuz.1605" said:

Holo is definitely extremely strong as a duelist right now. Overpowered? Probably not. But having multiple classes in S+ tier (mirage overlords have a challenger now) is not good for the health of the game when it comes in the form of long duration hard CC's and full health resets that can occur in stealth). To reiterate, my issue comes with passive S before any of the damage or CC. The condition damage during invuln change was an extremely "useful" buff for engineer, but especially holo as well.

I like how engineer, by receiving some nerfs, has somehow become S+ tier now. Lul. SD holo has faced nerf after nerf, but it's S+ tier now. Mmk.

Also, for the love of god, everybody still complains about auto elixir S. It really is not a full reset unless you're completely negligent in your teamfights or duels. The only good thing it does for engineers is stall death momentarily.

You seem to forget about elixir buff.

It was a partial buff. The change to the toolbelt skill was unwanted (seriously, most engies didn't like that change). The stability was nice, although a bit excessive.

[Elesmira.3782]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Yet, these days people are mostly complaining about core engineer skills. Holo has been nerfed a lot over past few patches. I mostly see complaints about rifle, CC’s and elixir s.

not nerfed enough. the range on shockwave needs to be halved. cooldowns on leap need to be double. forge needs to have a interruptible cast.

all problems solved

Yea, or maybe just delete the specialization huh? would be easier.

L2P

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Elesmira.3782 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:Yet, these days people are mostly complaining about core engineer skills. Holo has been nerfed a lot over past few patches. I mostly see complaints about rifle, CC’s and elixir s.

not nerfed enough. the range on shockwave needs to be halved. cooldowns on leap need to be double. forge needs to have a interruptible cast.

all problems solved

Yea, or maybe just delete the specialization huh? would be easier.

L2P

That's the thing. I know how to play. So, for me it is easy to recognize an over-tuned spec, and the delusional players who defend them.

[Arheundel.6451]

Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

[Bossun.2046]

LMAO, even before the invulnerability change in the game happened people were complaining about passive elixir S. Even if that "get out of jail" card was one of the reasons that engis died due to it proccing while full of condis. Even now, if someone uses their brain, and doesn't waste their skills while they are invu, they should be able to defeat a engi. And that's something that I used to fail in too.

I myself don't have a problem interrupting or dodging out of photon forge skills. I just don't see how others can't be bothered to learn and play against other classes.

Some people just need to admit that they aren't that good.

[Noha.3749]

OP just smells alot of salt.Every class got something great going for them in some parts of the game, and being worse at other aspects of the game.Your elementalist is uncontested top damage in PvE content, always has a spot in WvW fights. Was a great bruiser/bunker for quite a few years. I even remember top tier sPvP elementalists playing scepter burst builds in ranked and doing great work.

The only place your elementalist is below avrage is in sPvP. Still playable mind you if you do it well.I wish i had as much versitality with my Engineer/thief as an elementalist. Being welcome everywere (except ranked sPvP to a certain extend) must feel great.

Yeah i think id be greatful. Too bad i dont enjoy elementalists visually enough.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

Now you're complaining about a core skill that has been in the game since launch. Core does not need nerfing.

Protip: If stealth bothers you with engineers, remember that ENGINEERS CANNOT TELEPORT. You can pop some AoEs near where they stealthed, or you can roughly approximate what direction they will head.

Also, elixir S is not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a delaying tactic. Why? Because you can't do anything other than move or dodge while you're in elixir S form. It simply gives you some time for your cooldowns to decrease (assuming you even used them), or hope that the enemy is an idiot and lets you go and/or wastes their burst skills. Most of the time when I elixir S, I have to dodge at the end because almost everybody in the game knows that that is the perfect time to CC an engineer. So I have to burn a lot of defense to make Elixir S useful.

[praqtos.9035]

@Arheundel.6451 said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

this is just mindblowing to me, the passive elixir s is a pain to play with, more time than not its killing me rather than helping because its interrupting right at those crucial moments where u are using a healing skill/block or cc to deal with pressure.where do u get 4'th get out of jailcard? 2 elixirs and 1 stealth (that all can be played around in u stop wasting burst and cc on invul) and aoe the stealth spot as someone mentioned. also current meta holo's dont have endless protection boon cuz noone is running hard light arena anymore, its all burst so best tactic is damage spike like rev and stick to the holo while he's invul to keep up the pressure when its gone. and dodge the flashy skills, only cc thats op atm is rifle 4 cuz of range and little tell.interrupt healing turret water fields since we get alot of healing from that , can get up to 10k healing with both fields if u let holo's do what they want.since patch we arent the tanky midfighters that can stand on point all day facetanking like a warrior.

[Math.5123]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

this is just mindblowing to me, the passive elixir s is a pain to play with, more time than not its killing me rather than helping.

Yet every engineer and their mother seems to be content with this "horrible trait".Get real, the Condi change to elixir was unneeded.

[Airdive.2613]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

this is just mindblowing to me, the passive elixir s is a pain to play with, more time than not its killing me rather than helping.

Yet every engineer and their mother seems to be content with this "horrible trait".Get real, the Condi change to elixir was unneeded.

More real still: it's not a change to elixir, it's a game-wide change to invulnerability.

[praqtos.9035]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

this is just mindblowing to me, the passive elixir s is a pain to play with, more time than not its killing me rather than helping.

Yet every engineer and their mother seems to be content with this "horrible trait".Get real, the Condi change to elixir was unneeded.

ye why should we take anything else when the 2 other traits are strait useless and do nothing for us. it rly is the best of 3 garbage traits

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Elixer was overbuffed for sure, but it's not like holo is unbeatable. It's largely forced to play conservative while not in holo mode.

Mirage on the other hand is objectively broken and always will be until the balance team accepts the fact that allowing a spec to do its complete defensive and offensive rotations at the same time is extremely bad game design from any PvP perspective.

[Noha.3749]

Well, if you give engineers more viable builds im sure you would see less Holosmiths. Alot of people including myself is a bit bored of having a single viable build. (not counting niché scrapper, it needs adjustments to be on par with anything)

Elixir S is fine the way it is, our invuls are not better than anyone elses, and there are alot of invulns / passive lifesavers out there.

Cant speak much about Mesmer, ive got one geared up but i havent played it enough to comment it.

[shadowpass.4236]

When Druid was not a potato, Anet decided to nerf them by increasing the cooldown on Celestial Avatar and reducing our healing by over 50%.

It went from 10s -> 15s -> 20s.

Maybe Photon Forge needs a 10 second cooldown and a damage reduction as well.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

(...)Also, elixir S is not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a delaying tactic. Why? Because you can't do anything other than move or dodge while you're in elixir S form. It simply gives you some time for your cooldowns to decrease (assuming you even used them), or hope that the enemy is an idiot and lets you go and/or wastes their burst skills. Most of the time when I elixir S, I have to dodge at the end because almost everybody in the game knows that that is the perfect time to CC an engineer. So I have to burn a lot of defense to make Elixir S useful.

Not saying it is OP or holo in general is, but...

Elixir S proc has become great with the change that it makes you invulnerable to condis. It is not just delaying death - you can run and jump and LoS freely, without any CC affecting you! That is absolutely great and saved my ass several times. Thief bursting you? lol, just jump onto something. Soulbeast rapid fire? Ooops, I am just gonna walk behind this pillar there.

Does not work on all points, not against all classes (mesmes with 1 million teleports is hard...) and not in all situations against all players, but definitely great for kiting and disengaging. :smile:

But again, I don't think holo is that OP right now. It is string, it is meta, but it is not completely dominant.

[Math.5123]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

this is just mindblowing to me, the passive elixir s is a pain to play with, more time than not its killing me rather than helping.

Yet every engineer and their mother seems to be content with this "horrible trait".Get real, the Condi change to elixir was unneeded.

ye why should we take anything else when the 2 other traits are strait useless and do nothing for us. it rly is the best of 3 garbage traits

The person I quoted and many others sound like the trait is a mandatory detriment. That the trait does more bad than good which just isn't true.

If you don't like the trait cancelling skills, don't run it. But be ready on that dodge button like the rest of us need to be.

[Silinsar.6298]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

(...)Also, elixir S is not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a delaying tactic. Why? Because you can't do anything other than move or dodge while you're in elixir S form. It simply gives you some time for your cooldowns to decrease (assuming you even used them), or hope that the enemy is an idiot and lets you go and/or wastes their burst skills. Most of the time when I elixir S, I have to dodge at the end because almost everybody in the game knows that that is the perfect time to CC an engineer. So I have to burn a lot of defense to make Elixir S useful.

Elixir S proc has become great with the change that it makes you invulnerable to condis. It is not just delaying death - you can run and jump and LoS freely, without any CC affecting you! That is absolutely great and saved my kitten several times. Thief bursting you? lol, just jump onto something. Soulbeast rapid fire? Ooops, I am just gonna walk behind this pillar there.

But what happened after that? The Thief can reset, escape, decap, heal, stealth etc while you can't do anything and port to you as soon as you're vulnerable again, the Soulbeast can act similarly, or cast lb#5 on the pillar while having the pet follow you, which drives you back even further.So all you said is true but you're not the only one who can use your SRD to your advantage. After all, it's the enemy who controls when it procs. Doing so can help them stay alive and / or get a point. Any movement impairing effect also stays, sometimes even hard CCs (you can often notice this with launch, though it could also be that the stunbreak doesn't work if you get hit <25% mid jump), which can severely limit your repositioning options. Besides Photon Wall Holo has nothing that allows it to attack while preventing getting hit, so whenever a holo threatens to burst you down you can stop him in his tracks by counter-bursting.

@topicSRD is good in team fights (since team mates can heal you or peel for you before you're vulnerable again) and vs surprise bursts, but it is not something that will give you an advantage over an enemy who knows how to deal with it. In contrast, war, thief and ranger defense procs allow them to fully keep their pressure on their enemies while they can not be brought down quickly.

It is a good trait for what it does, especially since it can no longer get you killed directly vs conds, but many people still seem to drastically overestimate it.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Silinsar.6298 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Holosmiths go around with double elixir S and that means stealth on demand, that means 4 get out of jail all in one build....too much dps for the amount of damage they can dish out, perma protection/stability..the list is too long to even fit in a single page.

Really I am asking the devs to bring holosmiths and mirages down to earth....

what kind of fool would expect the actual players to admit their class is at fault?

...been playing MMO for a while now...there is no chance in hell that a player would admit the class they play it's OP.....99% of the times it will be the old same L2P blubbering

(...)Also, elixir S is not a "get out of jail free" card. It's a delaying tactic. Why? Because you can't do anything other than move or dodge while you're in elixir S form. It simply gives you some time for your cooldowns to decrease (assuming you even used them), or hope that the enemy is an idiot and lets you go and/or wastes their burst skills. Most of the time when I elixir S, I have to dodge at the end because almost everybody in the game knows that that is the perfect time to CC an engineer. So I have to burn a lot of defense to make Elixir S useful.

Elixir S proc has become great with the change that it makes you invulnerable to condis. It is not just delaying death - you can run and jump and LoS freely, without any CC affecting you! That is absolutely great and saved my kitten several times. Thief bursting you? lol, just jump onto something. Soulbeast rapid fire? Ooops, I am just gonna walk behind this pillar there.

But what happened after that? The Thief can reset, escape, decap, heal, stealth etc while you can't do anything and port to you as soon as you're vulnerable again, the Soulbeast can act similarly, or cast lb#5 on the pillar while having the pet follow you, which drives you back even further.So all you said is true but you're not the only one who can use your SRD to your advantage. After all, it's the enemy who controls when it procs. Doing so can help them stay alive and / or get a point. Any movement impairing effect also stays, sometimes even hard CCs (you can often notice this with launch, though it could also be that the stunbreak doesn't work if you get hit <25% mid jump), which can severely limit your repositioning options. Besides Photon Wall Holo has nothing that allows it to attack while preventing getting hit, so whenever a holo threatens to burst you down you can stop him in his tracks by counter-bursting.

@topicSRD is good in team fights (since team mates can heal you or peel for you before you're vulnerable again) and vs surprise bursts, but it is not something that will give you an advantage over an enemy who knows how to deal with it. In contrast, war, thief and ranger defense procs allow them to fully keep their pressure on their enemies while they can not be brought down quickly.

It is a good trait for what it does, especially since it can no longer get you killed directly vs conds, but many people still seem to drastically overestimate it.

If the +1er stays while you hide and kite, it is good for you. If you can disengage a team fight when you were focussed, it is good. If you keep standing on the point waiting for the proc to run out...Also, if it procced at 75% I would see the use for your enemy, but at 25%? Really? In this powercreep that's like 1 or 2 AAs that would otherwise down you.

I am not saying it is OP or even too strong. :smile: But if you position properly, it can most definitely safe you. SI just can't keep silent when people say it's worthless, even before it gave immunity to damaging conditions it was helpful. Now it is quite nice.

[coro.3176]

The auto-proc passive defense is dumb, and bad gameplay, but isn't that OP in the grand scheme of things.

What Holo and Mirage (and other elite specs) have going for them is that they get free mechanics on top of the base class. I don't know how you will ever be able to balance that without making the associated traitline + damage values absolutely terrible .. and even then, it's probably not enough.

With Holo, you get access to 5 of the best damage + CC (+ comes with free sustain) skills engi has access to and you sacrifice just 1 toolbelt skill to get it.With Mirage, you get longer dodges and the ability to attack while dodging, not to mention stunbreak on dodge when traited.This applies to other elite specs too, of course

Those mechanics ALONE are better than most entire core spec traitlines. Like, if Holo had NO TRAITS AT ALL at all in its Holo line - just Photon Forge - it'd still be better than core engi. How do you balance that?

[Airdive.2613]

@coro.3176 said:The auto-proc passive defense is dumb, and bad gameplay, but isn't that OP in the grand scheme of things.

What Holo and Mirage (and other elite specs) have going for them is that they get free mechanics on top of the base class. I don't know how you will ever be able to balance that without making the associated traitline + damage values absolutely terrible .. and even then, it's probably not enough.

With Holo, you get access to 5 of the best damage + CC (+ comes with free sustain) skills engi has access to and you sacrifice just 1 toolbelt skill to get it.With Mirage, you get longer dodges and the ability to attack while dodging, not to mention stunbreak on dodge when traited.This applies to other elite specs too, of course

Those mechanics ALONE are better than most entire core spec traitlines. Like, if Holo had NO TRAITS AT ALL at all in its Holo line - just Photon Forge - it'd still be better than core engi. How do you balance that?

Heat mechanic.

[coro.3176]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@coro.3176 said:The auto-proc passive defense is dumb, and bad gameplay, but isn't

that

OP in the grand scheme of things.

What Holo and Mirage (and other elite specs) have going for them is that they get free mechanics on top of the base class. I don't know how you will ever be able to balance that without making the associated traitline + damage values absolutely terrible .. and even then, it's probably not enough.

With Holo, you get access to 5 of the best damage + CC (+ comes with free sustain) skills engi has access to and you sacrifice just 1 toolbelt skill to get it.With Mirage, you get longer dodges and the ability to attack while dodging, not to mention stunbreak on dodge when traited.This applies to other elite specs too, of course

Those mechanics ALONE are better than most entire core spec traitlines. Like, if Holo had NO TRAITS AT ALL at all in its Holo line - just Photon Forge - it'd still be better than core engi. How do you balance that?

Heat mechanic.

Yeah the heat mechanic is currently not a downside. It effectively functions as a brief cooldown on PF that is also a free 6.5k or more passive heal. I very very rarely screw up and accidentally overheat. It'd be different if there was no cool-off and you HAD to eat the damage once you reached max heat. That would be a serious downside and you'd have to think about whether you could afford to use PF.

[Mbelch.9028]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:They both have too much sustain, far too much sustain and "get out of jail" cards to be deemed at least reasonable for this level of gameplay, both these specs now transcend the true meaning of faceroll...they are beyond stupid, I understand that you want to keep the skill level low for the kind of target audience but there is also something called going too far and if this is still not considered out of whack well...when should we expect elite specs with access to magic versions of nuclear bombs or access to some kind of asura made laser satellite?

Dude. Stop making a new thread to rag on holosmith each time you get stomped by one.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/50264/holosmith-and-spellbreaker-sustain-is-far-too-high#latest

Holosmith is strong. It's going to be strong because it's a well-rounded class that isn't dependent on a specific amulet or sigil to work. Buff other classes to be just as strong, don't nerf classes that work.

Also -- holosmith has received repeated nerfs, and doesn't need any new ones.

The only gripe I agree with in this thread is that auto elixir S is a bad trait that carries lower skilled people. It should be deleted from the game.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Mbelch.9028 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:They both have too much sustain, far too much sustain and "get out of jail" cards to be deemed at least reasonable for this level of gameplay, both these specs now transcend the true meaning of faceroll...they are beyond stupid, I understand that you want to keep the skill level low for the kind of target audience but there is also something called

going too far

and if this is still not considered out of whack well...when should we expect elite specs with access to magic versions of nuclear bombs or access to some kind of asura made laser satellite?

(...) Buff other classes to be just as strong, don't nerf classes that work.(...)

That's how we got the current powercreep though...