Episode 4: thread for spoilers and comments.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

SCREEEEEEE

[Tamias.7059]

All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _Utopia_. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

As I said I'm excited to see what happens next primarily because Kormir said the Gods could not fight the Elder Dragons because of the destruction caused to Tyria in the event of a fight.

If Kralkatorrik is the Mists, however...

[kasoki.5180]

Overall, this LWS has been great, but one thing has bothered me a bit.

If Kralk devours the Mists and that in turns disintegrates reality, isn't Kralk essentially committing suicide? Or at least killing other elder dragons? I mean, from Mordremoth we have seen that ED are not just some mindless forces of nature incapable of thinking, so this part leaves me confused

[derd.6413]

@"Tamias.7059" said:All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _Utopia_. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

i think they already shot down the mist season because they can't do open world maps in the mists or something

[Tamias.7059]

@derd.6413 said:

@"Tamias.7059" said:All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _

Utopia

_. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

i think they already shot down the mist season because they can't do open world maps in the mists or something

Oh really? I'd be interested in seeing where. I guess there is a logistical problem in displaying these zones in the world map - you could have a separate map for them but then what happens when you want to waypoint from a Mists zone to a Tyrian one, or vice-versa?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that we'll be seeing a Mists-based storyline in the future. If ANet ever decide to wrap up the story of GW2, either to bring it into a GW3 or to finish the series completely, I think the way they'd do it in keeping with the bittersweet tone of the series' endings so far would be to blow up Tyria entirely (maybe through the death of Aurene after she absorbs the other dragons' magic) and have the survivors head into the Mists to follow the Gods to their new home. Gives us a chance to wrap up the story of the Gods too.

[Alchimist.4738]

We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

[derd.6413]

@Tamias.7059 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Tamias.7059 said:All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _

Utopia

_. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

i think they already shot down the mist season because they can't do open world maps in the mists or something

Oh really? I'd be interested in seeing where. I guess there is a logistical problem in displaying these zones in the world map - you could have a separate map for them but then what happens when you want to waypoint from a Mists zone to a Tyrian one, or vice-versa?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that we'll be seeing a Mists-based storyline in the future. If ANet ever decide to wrap up the story of GW2, either to bring it into a GW3 or to finish the series completely, I think the way they'd do it in keeping with the bittersweet tone of the series' endings so far would be to blow up Tyria entirely (maybe through the death of Aurene after she absorbs the other dragons' magic) and have the survivors head into the Mists to follow the Gods to their new home. Gives us a chance to wrap up the story of the Gods too.

we can have a story dealing with the mists but we just won't go there, we'll have to do with tyria and it's crumbeling reality.

also i'm pretty sure utopia would be too human centric iirc

[Genesis.8572]

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.Sons of Svanir are just norn followers of Jormag. They are not technically dragon minions. Just idiots.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

The Sons of Svanir basically hijacked the ability of the regular norn shamans to enter the Mists. Once they no longer had control of a regular shaman prisoner to let them in, they were no longer able to - neither Jormag nor his minions gained the ability to open portals themselves.

Kralkatorrik, apparently, has: probably, as someone commented above, as a result of consuming Balthazar's magic, which did include being able to open portals.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Tamias.7059" said:All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _Utopia_. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

i doubt Anet will go on some kind of "big reset".

[Yannir.4132]

AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I don't think being able to create portals and rifts is a Divine magic thing. It's likely just an innate ability of the base Mist beings the Gods are before you add Divine magic on top of that.

Though it does pose an interesting question as to what can and can't Elder Dragons absorb. We know Divine magic repels dragon minions and likely cannot be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

We have Balthazar's sword still holding it's magic and remaining uncorrupted by the Brand, for example. And Kormir's fire keeping the Sanctum safe from Branded.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Yannir.4132" said:AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

perhaps the "merge realities" thing can serves to explain it go the mists without breaking tyria.

[derd.6413]

@Yannir.4132 said:AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

balt had still some magic in him after being stripped of godhood. he could reignite rytlock's blade and in all likelyhood he opened the portal ryt used to return to tyria

[Fenom.9457]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Well I imagine this deadeye is going to take Balth's place. Else what would the point of her introduction? What kind of role would she serve that some rando npc deadeye couldn't?

poor grenth, he'll be the only boy

lucky guy

[maxwelgm.4315]

@"Yannir.4132" said:AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

I did not "properly" scan through the episode yet so to speak, but it wouldn't be surprising if Kralk can break a lot of rules now that he has energy from other dragons AND Balthazar's magic if he had any of the specifically "divine" magic gods have. It also fits in with the theme of spatial distortion since he might be "bringing the mists into himself" rather than actually leaving Tyria. Think of Xera's mesmer magic leveled up by a Dragon Ball Z season worth of levels.

Interestingly, it was also Jormag the dragon who had interest in the Mists as per the first lore we had about the game, so I'm curious as to what cards they are going to play after Kralk replaces Aurene (or not?!).

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@kasoki.5180 said:Overall, this LWS has been great, but one thing has bothered me a bit.

If Kralk devours the Mists and that in turns disintegrates reality, isn't Kralk essentially committing suicide? Or at least killing other elder dragons? I mean, from Mordremoth we have seen that ED are not just some mindless forces of nature incapable of thinking, so this part leaves me confused

Maybe if he eats the mists then reality just collapses and he becomes reality itself. Just a theory though.

[Hermes.8927]

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

This bothered me from the get go, but not because of the Sons of Svanir. With the lore of the Spirits of the Wild and Jormag eating them, I felt like it was implied that Jormag had the ability to go into whatever plain of existence the Spirits were in (so I thought to be the Mists). I figured that since Kralk absorbed Balth and Balth absorbed Bloodstone PLUS part of Primordus AND Jormag, that some abilities have been transferred/copied.

In the end I am going to run with it but I'm confused by the implications in the end.

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

@Hermes.8927 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

This bothered me from the get go, but not because of the Sons of Svanir. With the lore of the Spirits of the Wild and Jormag eating them, I felt like it was implied that Jormag had the ability to go into whatever plain of existence the Spirits were in (so I thought to be the Mists). I figured that since Kralk absorbed Balth and Balth absorbed Bloodstone PLUS part of Primordus AND Jormag, that some abilities have been transferred/copied.

In the end I am going to run with it but I'm confused by the implications in the end.

But if Kralk absorbed Balth and Balth absorbed the Bloodstone + Primordus + Jormag AND Kralk/Primordus/Jormag also absorbed Mordremoth and Zaitan's magics due to that whole ED spectrum thing and Mordremoth absorbed Treaherne, then my question is.....

Have you ever noticed how soft Rhytlock's fur is?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Well I imagine this deadeye is going to take Balth's place. Else what would the point of her introduction? What kind of role would she serve that some rando npc deadeye couldn't?I dunno. I think she's just meant to be the iconic Elonian addition to Dragon's Watch. By all rights of established lore, Balthazar should already have a replacement. And she isn't really "rando" (why do people feel the need to shorten a word by one letter? It only makes them look dumber...) since she's got an established backstory from the very beginning; her reasons for joining are established right off the bat.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:And I really hope they don't kill Aurene. I'm wondering if absorbing Joko's powers will give her somekind of unforeseen advantage? But I imagine she would have seen that in the visions. Then again, Glint's visions didn't always come true, right?More accurately, Glint was not able to foretell the outcome of the battle against Kralkatorrik. She could not see her own death.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Speaking of which, I guess we aren't getting any backstory on Joko? Or his origin? Or maybe there is something in the collection achievement?Apparently. Which is very sad, but expected.

@Aeon.4583 said:In this episode, in Aurene's possible futures. did commander even present there? Maybe i missed something but Character's model weren't even there ( maybe due to seperate-file Cinematic ).

I am starting to think, that one of side-effects that Commander have, after dead-and-back event, is ability to be hidden from any type of premonition visions. Like Dune No-Chambers. In other words, no one can see our Character's future. Also Fungus in Anomaly Zone is making fun of commander about been dead and back.

Glint, Snaff and Eir were telling Aurene that it is time for you BOTH to face Krakkatorrik. And they were really hard stepping on it.We now know about only one side-effect, which is actually a benefit - Scarab Plague Immunity. And i am eager to learn about more of those :)What i am trying to tell, maybe Aurene didn't see future with Commander right next to her.

P.s. if Commander actually have ability to be hidden from premonition visions, this can be a reason for Aurene's imbalance in her own abilities. Those two have a bond.

It's hard to establish a customized character in cinematic, especially an artistic one like that cinematic. But the fourth vision showed Aurene with a lone figure that was very hard to make out - you couldn't even tell their race. I took that to be the Commander.

First vision, Aurene on a grassy plain fighting Kralk alone. Second vision, Aurene in a snowy area, fighting with Dragon's Watch. Third vision, Aurene fighting over yellow wasteland (Desolation?) with the Pact. Fourth vision, Aurene in a canyon landscape with a lone humanoid figure holding a spear and shield (Commander). Fifth was split between her with Pact Fleet and Dragon's Watch in that first grassy plain, and and unclear landscape with... something behind her but otherwise alone. Sixth was split between Aurene and a lone figure (again, different landscape), and 1 airship + Taimi and a device (looks like a laser cannon). From there it's just different combinations of Pact, Dragon's Watch, and strange devices.

So the Commander is there, they just make it hard to make them out because of the nature of a customized character. Same with all other pre-rendered cinematics; they're almost unanimously not showing the Commander.

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:But its create too much potential to lore-break stuff, perhaps, if Glint "soul" goes to the mists after death, so theres Zaithan and Mordy here?

That's not lore breaking. ArenaNet already had the souls of killed enemies coming back to haunt the PC in Nightfall. We don't know whether or not Elder Dragons have souls, but no reason why they wouldn't really.

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:And this create the inevitable conclusion that the gods will return here to clean up the mess.

Probably Kralkatorrik is not distorting only the reality between Tyria-Mists, but other realitys(hence the fungus comin from another planet), and the Gods must have noticed that there is something wrong in the kingdom of Denmark.

I disagree. While they did say they're not done with the gods, I don't see this as a "must need" intervention for the Six. Keep in mind that we're still on the borders of Tyria within the Mists, not throughout the entire cosmos. And Tyria would likely die out before he reached far enough to be a threat to the Six.

Though recruiting the gods may be the balance tipping that is needed to ensure Aurene survives. The question is: if so, how to contact them?

@"Randulf.7614" said:It was a bit late when I played the story so apologies if these were answered, but I did have a couple of questions

• Any mention of how the rifts were formed?
• Any mention of how a rift big enough to portal an ED and surrounding storm didn't just destroy half of Elona with it?
• Suggested to be power from Balthazar, but not explicitly explained.
• He didn't. According to the dialogue, he "just vanished", which suggests more of a phasing out than opening a portal.

• @Tamias.7059 said:

  @derd.6413 said:
  @Tamias.7059 said:All this talk of the Mists and of things being displaced from their original places and times wreaks of what we know about the plot of _
  Utopia
  _. Maybe we'll see the story that was planned out there making it into GW2 in some form after all. Maybe just as LWS4 is set in Elona, LWS5 will be us frolicking around the Mists?

i think they already shot down the mist season because they can't do open world maps in the mists or something

Oh really? I'd be interested in seeing where. I guess there is a logistical problem in displaying these zones in the world map - you could have a separate map for them but then what happens when you want to waypoint from a Mists zone to a Tyrian one, or vice-versa?

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that we'll be seeing a Mists-based storyline in the future. If ANet ever decide to wrap up the story of GW2, either to bring it into a GW3 or to finish the series completely, I think the way they'd do it in keeping with the bittersweet tone of the series' endings so far would be to blow up Tyria entirely (maybe through the death of Aurene after she absorbs the other dragons' magic) and have the survivors head into the Mists to follow the Gods to their new home. Gives us a chance to wrap up the story of the Gods too.

I have a rule about Living World maps being present on the overworld parchment. Doesn't mean we won't go into the Mists, but a main open world map in the Mists is unlikely.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/55389/an-open-world-map-located-in-the-mists#latest

It seems to be more a design decision than a technical limitation, though there's likely some technicalities involved. But it seems we'll forever remain in the open world of Tyria for our maps. We will have instances in the Mists, etc. perhaps even a lobby like at the end of HoT, but seems that Season 4, and likely forever, we won't be having maps outside of our normal world map - be it in the Mists, or another segment of the world that is separated from the main world map (obviously we can see extensions of the world map, though).

This would make a Mists-based storyline pretty hard to do. Or even a Cantha storyline, for that matter. If we do get such, I'd expect it to be an expansion based on this.

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

Jormag couldn't. He had to hijack the powers of norn havrouns and kodan Voices to send his minions into the Mists.

@derd.6413 said:we can have a story dealing with the mists but we just won't go there, we'll have to do with tyria and it's crumbeling reality.

also i'm pretty sure utopia would be too human centric iirc

We'll be going into the Mists, we just won't have open world maps based in the Mists.

@Yannir.4132 said:AFAIR, Kralkatorrik entering the Mists is by itself pretty lore-breaking. Aren't ED's supposed to be so fundamentally connected to Tyria that they CANNOT even leave the planet? Especially since Balthazar wasn't even supposed to have any god magic left in him, and all his power came from the Bloodstone and the 2 parts of ED magic he consumed?While I think the story on the character level was very good(I've been left wanting more on the previous episodes), the larger plot with Kralkatorrik has a ton of holes in it.

The Elder Dragons are fundamentally connected to The All, but 1) nothing says they cannot leave Tyria, and 2) the Mists overlap and border Tyria, and The All is more than just Tyria; since 3) we don't know what The All actually is, in detail.

Balthazar didn't have god magic, but he did have his own magic, and was able to make portals per the cinematic in PoF of Rytlock meeting Balthazar. Besides this, there's a curious oddity with Balthazar's magic, in that he never used magic that was similar to Primordus', Jormag's, or the Bloodstone's.

My theory would be that Balthazar, as a former god, was able to warp the foundation of the magic he absorbed into mirroring his old divine magic. This then allowed Kralkatorrik to take that 'warped' magic and use those properties.

This theory is only extended by how Kralkatorrik has no ice abilities, and haven't even shown fire abilities really, as if all he got from Balthazar was Mists traversal (on the flip side, Aurene got fire abilities but not phasing...).

@Hermes.8927 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

This bothered me from the get go, but not because of the Sons of Svanir. With the lore of the Spirits of the Wild and Jormag eating them, I felt like it was implied that Jormag had the ability to go into whatever plain of existence the Spirits were in (so I thought to be the Mists). I figured that since Kralk absorbed Balth and Balth absorbed Bloodstone PLUS part of Primordus AND Jormag, that some abilities have been transferred/copied.

In the end I am going to run with it but I'm confused by the implications in the end.

It was never implied Jormag could go to whatever plane of existence the Spirits were in. Though given what we do now, it seems like he should be able to, from eating Owl. It's hard to really tell, with so little lore on the Spirits of the Wild.

[Bast.7253]

Why do people feel the need to write a thesis picking apart every other word of someone's post in every thread? I guess people just make rando decisions sometimes.

And is Dragon's Watch missing a token Elonian or something? I never got that impression. But maybe, just tie it in in the future.

Wonder if the gods are coming back into play against Kralk seeing as he's in the mists and it wouldn't damage Tyria. I feel like that would be a pretty good alliance for Aurene and one that we didn't witness in any of her visions. Possibly an outcome she wouldn't have forseen either.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

I suspect Zafirah will have more to do than just representing Elona in our party. I had a similar skepticism about Blish when he was introduced, but his particular combination of knowledge and traits just proved to be central to the plot twice over. If I had to guess, I'd say we're not done with exploring Balthazar's shenanigans, and someone who was actually tied to them is a good pick to help us navigate them.

(She is also another major step down whatever character arc the devs have set up for the Commander. She threw several of the same accusations that Joko did, and, at least for male sylvari, the voice acting was openly emotional while we were pleading with her to work with us.)

Overall, my initial impression is balanced between enjoying this episode (and being pleasantly surprised by how much there actually was to this one) and wondering if this is going to wind up being the moment where I decide they've jumped the shark. I'll get more into that tomorrow, though; for now, the one thing I am well and truly miffed about, that hasn't been brought up- why didn't Zojja get to be there to see Snaff?

[derd.6413]

@Hermes.8927 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:We know that Kralkatorrik can travel to the mist, and Taimi says it's a unique behavior for Elder Dragons, but I thought Jormag could also travel to the mist, or at least his minions, because in the Norn personal story we travel ourself to the mist and fight the Son of Svanir and some Icebrood Elementals there.

This bothered me from the get go, but not because of the Sons of Svanir. With the lore of the Spirits of the Wild and Jormag eating them, I felt like it was implied that Jormag had the ability to go into whatever plain of existence the Spirits were in (so I thought to be the Mists). I figured that since Kralk absorbed Balth and Balth absorbed Bloodstone PLUS part of Primordus AND Jormag, that some abilities have been transferred/copied.

In the end I am going to run with it but I'm confused by the implications in the end.

the spirits of the wild show up in the physical realm all the time. Wolf appears on top of a shrine in wayfarers foothills during a certain event. and iirc the spirits attacked jormag in order to protect the norn, jormag didn't go after the spirits inside the mists

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I suspect Zafirah will have more to do than just representing Elona in our party. I had a similar skepticism about Blish when he was introduced, but his particular combination of knowledge and traits just proved to be central to the plot twice over. If I had to guess, I'd say we're not done with exploring Balthazar's shenanigans, and someone who was actually tied to them is a good pick to help us navigate them.

(She is also another major step down whatever character arc the devs have set up for the Commander. She threw several of the same accusations that Joko did, and, at least for male sylvari, the voice acting was openly emotional while we were pleading with her to work with us.)

Overall, my initial impression is balanced between enjoying this episode (and being pleasantly surprised by how much there actually was to this one) and wondering if this is going to wind up being the moment where I decide they've jumped the shark. I'll get more into that tomorrow, though; for now, the one thing I am well and truly miffed about, that hasn't been brought up- why didn't Zojja get to be there to see Snaff?

It was pretty emotional with female Asura too. The voice acting for this whole episode was phenomenal. I do have a minor gripe about how damage spongey she was which detracted somewhat from the weight of the clashes with her IMO.